LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 252/96-97
(These minutes have been seen
by the Administration)
Ref : CB1/PL/TP/1

LegCo Panel on Transport

Minutes of meeting held on Thursday, 11 July 1996, at 10:45 am in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building

Members present :

Members absent:

Public officers attending:
For Item II

Mr Gordon SIU, JP: Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Miss Nancy LAW: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Mr Augustine CHENG: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport
Miss Maureen WONG: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport
Mrs Lily YAM, JP: Commissioner for Transport
Transport Department
Mr S C LEE: Assistant Commissioner for Transport
Transport Department
Mr K T YAU: Engineer/Territory Transport Planning
Transport Department

For Item III

Mr Gordon SIU, JP: Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Miss Nancy LAW: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Mr Isaac CHOW: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Mr John Sherwin: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport
Mrs Lily YAM, JP: Commissioner for Transport
Transport Department
Mr LI Shu-ming: Acting Government Engineer/Port & Airport Development
Transport Department

Item IV

Mr Gordon SIU, JP: Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Miss Nancy LAW: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Mr Isaac CHOW: Deputy Secretary for Transport
Mrs Lily YAM, JP: Commissioner for Transport
Transport Department

Attendance by invitation:
For Item III
Mass Transit Railway Corporation

Mr Malcolm Gibson: Chief Design Manager
Mr Eddie SO: Transport Planning Manager
Mrs Miranda LEUNG: Corporate Relations Manager

For Item IV
Mass Transit Railway Corporation

Mr Jack SO: Chairman
Mr Rob Noble: Marketing & Planning Director
Mr Clement KWOK: Finance Director
Mrs Miranda LEUNG: Corporate Relations Manager
Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation
Mr Kevin Hyde: Chairman
Mr Samuel LAI: Director, East Rail
Mr Jonathan YU: Director, Light Rail
Mr Barry CHOI: General Manager - Corporate Affairs

For Any Other Business
Mass Transit Railway Corporation

Mr Jack SO: Chairman
Mr W R Donald: Operations Director
Mr Rob Noble: Marketing & Planning Director
Mr Clement KWOK: Finance Director
Mrs Miranda LEUNG: Corporate Relations Manager

Clerk in attendance :

Mrs Vivian KAM: Chief Assistant Secretary (1)2

Staff in attendance :

Miss Eva LIU: Head (Research & Library and Services)
Mr Jackie WU: Research Officer 1
Mr Joseph LEE: Research Officer 5
Mr Billy TAM: Senior Assistant Secretary (1)4

I Matters arising from previous meetings

II Freight Transport

III Progress of the Airport Railway Project

IV Research report on Monitoring of Mass Transit Systems

V Any other business

I Matters arising from previous meetings

The Chairman reported on the following issues:

15 members of the Transport Panel had joined the Subcommittee on Western Corridor Railway while 21 non-Panel members had indicated interest in receiving documents of the Subcommittee. Members agreed on a quorum of five members for the Subcommittee and the terms of reference which was "to monitor progress of the Western Corridor Railway project and to make appropriate recommendations to the Administration";
a joint meeting on the subject of Territorial Development Strategy would be held for the four Panels of Transport, Housing, Environmental Affairs and Planning, Lands and Works on Tuesday, 16 July 1996, at 10:45 am; and
a meeting with the delegation of the Standing Committee on Transport and Communications of the Swedish Parliament had been scheduled for Friday, 30 August 1996, at 3:00 pm.

2. At the Chairmans suggestion, members agreed to include in the list of outstanding items for discussion the subjects of "Improvement works on Tuen Mun Road" and "Drivers responsibilities for safety". The latter subject would include a number of related issues such as the use of mobile phones while driving, smoking and the running of engines at petrol stations, accidents involving long vehicles, and the proposed installation of lights at the rear part of long vehicles. The Clerk would issue a notice inviting suggestions from members for inclusion into the latter subject.

3. Members also agreed to schedule a special meeting on 25 September 1996 at 8:30 am for Hon SIN Chung-kai to brief the Panel on the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (Amendment) Bill 1996 and the Kowloon Canton Railway Corporation (Amendment) Bill 1996. Representatives from the two railway corporations would also be invited to the meeting.

II Freight Transport

(Appendices II and III to LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 1779/95-96)

4. The Chairman advised that the subject of Freight Transport Study was last discussed by the Panel in June 1994. The Administration then advised that consultation on the subject was being undertaken subsequent to a consultancy study, and that it would revert to the Panel upon formulation of the Administrations strategy.

5. At the Chairmans invitation, Mr S C LEE briefed members on the latest developments on the subject as contained in the information paper at Appendix III. He reported that the trade was supportive of the majority of recommendations in the study, and measures had accordingly been devised for improving the operation of the freight transport industry. Improvement measures such as the extension of operating hours at border crossings, expansion of border processing facilities, and the increased enforcement of goods vehicle weight control had already been introduced. As regards the problem of parking spaces for goods vehicles, the Administration was actively considering such solutions as overnight on-street parking and making use of landfill sites for short-term parking. As a related issue, Mr LEE advised that recommendations in the Parking Demand Study were also being examined with a view to addressing the problems identified.

6. The Chairman noted from the appendix to the information paper that only about 700 new parking spaces for overnight parking of goods vehicles had been identified, and enquired about short term measures that could be taken to combat the problem. Mr Augustine CHENG advised in response that three sites had so far been identified for short term leases and these were being tendered. Other actions taken included traffic management measures and encouraging management of existing carparks to provide for overnight parking. These efforts would provide a total of about 1,000 carparking spaces. In addition, the Administration had set up a Working Group on the Parking Demand Study to draw up both short and long term measures. Some members remarked that the supply would still fall short of demand and urged the Administration to draw up more effective long term measures including for example the utilization of carparks in large shopping centres where the clientele would diminish at night.

7. In addressing a members concern on whether the provision of parking spaces for light goods vehicles were applicable only to public housing estates, Miss Nancy LAW clarified that the review in question was a very comprehensive one and that all types of properties would be similarly covered. The Working Group would submit a report in October 1996 whereupon the Administration would revert to the Panel on the way forward.

8. In referring to the objection raised by truck drivers on on-street metered parking, a member re-iterated his concern that for safety reasons, such parking spaces should not be provided near public housing estates and on major thoroughfares. Mr LEE advised that due regard would be given to both traffic and environmental impact, and assured members that relevant district boards would be consulted prior to implementation of the on-street parking proposals. On a related recommendation for privatizing the enforcement of parking meters, Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin said that the Democratic Party had reservations as the standard of enforcement might differ from that of the Police and corruption opportunities might arise. At the Chairmans request, Mr Gordon SIU affirmed that the Panel would be consulted if the recommendations were accepted.

9. A member was of the view that the Administration should reserve some land for building carparks, and enquired about the policy on the construction of multi-storey carparks and whether a review was warranted. Mr Gordon SIU affirmed that the Administrations policy was to encourage the provision of multi-storey carparking facilities by the private sector as this was essentially a commercial activity, and that public money would not be incurred for the purpose. This policy was working well and there were no compelling reasons for change. On members concern on the usage of the 25 sites identified by the Planning Department, Mr SIU confirmed that all these sites would be for multi-storey facilities for goods vehicles and private cars, although he cautioned that the tendering process might take three years. Mr LEE supplemented in response to members that both the number of parking spaces to be made available in the 25 sites and the ratio for the various categories of vehicles had yet to be determined. The number of sites for each district on the other hand was dependent on local needs.

10. On the progress on the recommendation for the allocation of more land for port back up and the usage of land in the West Kowloon Reclamation area, Mr S C LEE said that the recommendation was being pursued by the Planning Department and that the possibility of making temporary use of some industrial sites for container parking was also being explored. He advised that about 10 hectares of land would be designated in the West Kowloon Reclamation area for car parking purposes.

11. Before concluding, the Chairman reminded the Administration to revert to the Panel on progress on the subject in January 1997.

III Progress of the Airport Railway Project

(Appendices IV and V to LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 1779/95-96)

12. At the invitation of the Chairman and with the aid of a slide projector, Mr Malcolm Gibson gave a presentation on the Airport Railway Transport Interchanges as summarized in the information paper at Appendix IV. The Airport Railway (AR) would consist of the Airport Express Line and the Lantau Line. Initially the two lines would operate with a peak service of 8 and 4 minutes respectively, but these would be improved to 4 and 2 1/2 minutes respectively in subsequent years. Passengers were expected to come from taxis and a mixture of feeder modes including public transport and cars, and suitable facilities had been designed in the transport interchanges to cater for these feeder modes. To enhance the appeal of the Airport Railway Line, in-town check-in facilities would also be provided at the Hong Kong and Kowloon Stations. In concluding, Mr Gibson said that overall progress was satisfactory and completion of the AR was expected to be on schedule in June 1998.

13. In response to the Chairman on the progress of the Transport Study for the New Airport (TRANSNA), Mrs Lily YAM advised that the consultants had just completed a preliminary version of the final report which would be submitted to the Administration in September 1996. She undertook to provide a copy of the consultants report to the Panel.

14. Members were interested in the basis of the fare structure of the AR, the attractiveness of the in-town check-in facilities, whether the targeted completion date could be advanced, and the car parking facilities available. A member further enquired about contingency measures which would be in place in the event of break down of AR trains or signal failures.

15. Mr Gibson and Mr Eddie SO replied in response as follows:

according to an estimate made in the Railway Feasibility Study in 1991, a journey from Hong Kong to the Chek Lap Kok new airport would cost $50 at 1990 prices. No updated estimate had since been made and the fare structure would normally be drawn up about six months before operation;
about 50% of AR passengers would be expected to use the in-town check-in facilities and this would bring in an additional 10% of passengers for the AR;
a review of the target completion date could only be possible upon more progress being made on civil engineering work; and
phase I of the project would provide for 78 carparks and phase II for 470; the possibility of providing for more carparks would be further explored. Discounts would be allowed for AR users through such facilities as the Smartcard system, but long term parking would be discouraged.

16. The Chairman was concerned about the discouragement of long term parking through the pricing structure as this would run contrary to the objective of park-and-ride. She emphasized the need to strike a balance between this target and the aim of catering for short term users. Mr SO undertook to consider the Chairmans views.

17. On the availability of contingency measures, Mrs YAM advised that the Transport Branch would chair a Working Group comprising representatives from the Administration and the Mass Transit Railway Corporation to study contingency measures for coping with emergency situations. Another Working Group would also be formed to co-ordinate and implement the measures. She took note of a members suggestion for publicity to inform the public of such contingency measures, and undertook to convey the suggestion to the Working Group accordingly.

IV Research report on Monitoring of Mass Transit Systems

(LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 1603/95-96)

18. In response to the Chairman, Miss Eva LIU explained that the report had been prepared at the Panels request to provide reference material to facilitate members consideration of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (Amendment) Bill 1996 and the Kowloon Canton Railway Corporation (Amendment) Bill 1996 proposed by Hon SIN Chung-kai. She then introduced the methodology used in conducting the research. As members already had had the opportunity of studying the report, the Chairman suggested that it would not be necessary to go through the report in detail, and invited the chairmen of the two railway corporations to present their views.

19. Mr Jack SO warned that the two bills moved by Hon SIN Chung-kai would affect seriously the operation and credit rating of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) and the interests of Hong Kong, and appealed to members to scrutinize the bills cautiously. As regards the research report, he did not agree with the suggestion that monitoring of fare revision mechanism would help in controlling costs. He also felt that the report had omitted reference to the effect which such monitoring would have on the quality of service provided by the mass transit systems. The MTRC had commissioned the University of London in conducting a research and would report the research findings to the Panel in due course.

20. Mr Kevin Hyde also pointed out that there was a direct link between the political fare setting process in countries covered by the research report and the need for subsidies. He therefore disagreed with the comment in the report that subsidized railways overseas had little relevance to Hong Kong. He highlighted the fact that the Kowloon Canton Railway Corporation (KCRC) was effectively under a form of scheme of control of the Administration and was operating successfully without the need for taxpayer subsidy. He pointed out that the worlds railways were seeking to emulate the successful model in Hong Kong.

21. Members sought clarification on: the reasons for the report not having focused information on privatized railways as these would bear direct relevance to the situation in Hong Kong; on the observation in paragraph 8.1 of the report for broadening the participation of the Transport Advisory Committee (TAC); and the rationale for commenting in paragraph 9.5 on the need to further examine the effect which the monitoring mechanism would have on the abilities of the railway companies to raise funds. In response, Mr Jackie WU and Mr Joseph LEE explained that the research had been aimed at major cities with mass transit systems, and no particular emphasis had been placed on the mode of operation of the systems. In effect, many of the cities were nationalized and government-run, or operated by public bodies or commercial firms, and none of these cities had a direct comparison with the Hong Kong situation. Cities in Europe had also been examined but again the experience was not directly applicable to Hong Kong. Miss LIU supplemented that the other remarks quoted by members were for the purpose of setting out the experience in overseas countries and various considerations for members reference; these were not intended to be conclusions. She emphasized that the research was a comparative study and was not aimed at analysing the advantages and disadvantages of the monitoring mechanism.

22. In response to a member, Mr Clement KWOK confirmed that the outstanding debt of the MTRC as at 1995 was $14,736 million; the figure of $9,459 million quoted in the research report represented only the Capital Market Instruments and was exclusive of other outstanding debts of the MTRC.

23. Members considered a need for a further research on the effect on the credit ratings and the abilities of the two railway corporations to raise funds if a different mode of control on fare revisions were introduced. The research should also provide a comparison of means of raising funds and costs of interests borne by railway organizations in other countries. Miss LIU undertook to prepare a research report in two months for members reference.

V Any other business

24. The Chairman advised that members were concerned about the recent series of disruption of Mass Transit Railway (MTR) services and had requested representatives from the MTRC to brief the Panel on the subject.

25. Mr W R Donald said that the reliability of the MTR system in Hong Kong was of a high standard worldwide, and that it was not deteriorating, notwithstanding the recent disruptions in service. The concern had probably arisen from heightened media interest in such incidents. He explained that one of the incidents, water affecting the signalling, was caused by track circuit problem. There had so far been four such incidents in 1996 but this type of incident was not uncommon with such railways signalling systems. Mr Donald added that the MTRC was about to introduce a major re-signalling programme for improving the system, and the new facility would be introduced in the Tsuen Wan Line by the end of 1996. Although it would not be possible to guarantee a problem free service, fewer problems with the new signalling system was anticipated.

26. Some members expressed dissatisfaction at the MTRCs response. They criticised the MTRC for adopting an irresponsible attitude over such incidents which could cause danger to passengers and affect a significant number of passengers. They asked if the MTRC would conduct an overall review into the system.

27. In response, Mr Jack SO clarified that the MTRC had no intention of putting the blame on the mass media. The reliability of service and the safety of passengers had always been the MTRCs prime concern. Mr Donald supplemented that the MTRC had in fact achieved it best record for safety reliability in 1995. At members request, Mr SO undertook to provide data on delays due to signalling problem in each month in the past year including the number of passengers affected and the delay in time involved. Mr SO also offered to provide information on the new signalling system and the improvement works.

28. There being no other business, the meeting ended at 1:10 pm.
Legislative Council Secretariat
5 November 1996

Last Updated on 21 Aug. 1998