LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 634/96-97
(These minutes have been seen
by the Administration)
Ref : CB1/PL/TP/1

LegCo Panel on Transport

Minutes of meeting held on Friday, 6 December 1996, at 8:30 am in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building

Members present :

Members absent :

Public officers attending :
For Item III
Transport Branch

Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Mr Isaac CHOW: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Services)
Mr K C LAU: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport (Transport Services)
Transport Department: Mrs Lily YAM, JP
Commissioner for Transport
Mrs Dorothy CHAN, JP: Deputy Commissioner for Transport
Miss Zina WONG: Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Ferry & Paratransit)

Item IV
Transport Branch

Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Mr Isaac CHOW: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Services)
Mr K C LAU: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport (Transport Services)

Transport Department

Mrs Lily YAM, JP: Commissioner for Transport
Mr Alan LUI, JP: Assistant Commissioner for Transport (New Territories)
Mr Stephen WONG: Senior Engineer

Royal Hong Kong Police Force

Mr C S CHEUNG: Chief Superintendent (Traffic Headquarters)

Item V
Transport Branch

Mr Paul LEUNG, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Mr Isaac CHOW: Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Services)
Ms Maureen WONG: Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport

Transport Department

Mrs Lily YAM, JP: Commissioner for Transport
Mr Peter LUK: Principal Transport Officer

Royal Hong Kong Police Force

Mr C S CHEUNG: Chief Superintendent/Traffic Headquarters

Attendance by invitation :
For Item III
Motor Transport Workers General Union

Mr CHEUK Siu-yee: Vice Chairman
Mr LI Wing-sang: Director, Taxi Driver Branch

Hong Kong Kowloon Taxi and Lorry Owners' Association Ltd

Mr LEUNG Tat-chiu: Mr LAI Hoi-ping

Joint Action Group of Taxi Trade on Concern on Tolls of Western Harbour Crossing

Mr CHOI Keung: Wing Tai Car Owners & Drivers Association Ltd
Mr SUNG King-hung: Traffic Services Employees Association

Association of Urban Taxi Operators

Mr YUM Tai-ping, Chairman: the Kowloon Taxi Owners' Association Ltd
Mr LEUNG Shiu-cheong, Presidents: the Taxi Operators Association Ltd

Taxi Drivers & Operators Association Ltd

Item IV
Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation

Mr Jonathan YU, JP: Light Rail Director
Mr Selwyn LAI: Head of Operations - Light Rail Division

Clerk in attendance:

Staff in attendance :

Mr Matthew LOO: Senior Assistant Secretary (1)4 (Acting)

I Date of next meeting and items for discussion

II Information papers issued since last meeting

III Taxi tolls for the Western Harbour Crossing

Meeting with Deputations

The Motor Transport Workers General Union Taxi Driver Branch
The Hong Kong Kowloon Taxi and Lorry Owners' Association
The Joint Action Group of Taxi Trade on Concern on Tolls of Western Harbour Crossing
The Association of Urban Taxi Operators
The Taxi Drivers & Operators Association Ltd
Meeting with the Administration

IV Safety of the Light Rail Transit and Future Developments

V Overloading of goods vehicles

VI Any other business

I Date of next meeting and items for discussion

(List of outstanding items for discussion)

The Chairman drew members' attention to the agenda for the next series of meetings as set out in the list of outstanding items for discussion. Members agreed to extend the duration of the meeting on 13 December 1996 from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 am in order to allow sufficient time for discussion.

(Post meeting note: An additional Panel meeting was scheduled for 17 December 1996 at 8:15 am to discuss three items outstanding from the meeting on 13 December 1996.)

II Information papers issued since last meeting

2. No information paper had been issued since the last meeting.

III Taxi tolls for the Western Harbour Crossing

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(01)

Submissions from the Motor Transport Workers General Union Taxi Driver Branch, Hong Kong Kowloon Taxi and Lorry Owners' Association, Joint Action Group of Taxi Trade on Concern on Tolls of Western Harbour Crossing, Association of Urban Taxi Operators, and Taxi Drivers & Operators Association Ltd)

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(02)

Information paper provided by the Administration)

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(03)

Extract of Parts VIII to X of Cap. 436 Western Harbour Crossing Ordinance)

3. The Chairman advised that this item had been included on the agenda as a result of the trade's concern on the taxi toll for the Western Harbour Crossing (WHC) due to open in April 1997. Although Panel members representing different political parties requested to re-iterate their previous objections to the toll of $30 when the Western Harbour Crossing Ordinance was passed, the Chairman advised that this fell outside the ambit of the current agenda.

Meeting with Deputations

4. The Chairman said that representatives of five deputations from the taxi trade including taxi owners and drivers had been invited to the meeting to present their views on the subject. At the Chairman's invitation, the deputations made their representations as follows.

The Motor Transport Workers General Union Taxi Driver Branch

5. Mr LEE Wing-sang said that the recommendation by the Transport Advisory Committee (TAC) for a taxi charge of $40 would discourage taxi drivers from using WHC for the return journey. This would defeat the purpose of the WHC in relieving traffic congestion at the Cross Harbour Tunnel (CHT) and the Eastern Harbour Crossing. He cautioned that the quality of service of the trade might be eroded as most taxi drivers would have to spend more time and fuel in taking a less direct route for returning to their operating base. The alternative of topping up the difference of $20, which would likely be adopted towards the end of their shifts, would create undue hardship on the trade. Mr LEE proposed a lowering of the taxi toll by the Western Harbour Tunnel Company Ltd (WHTCL) to $10 for the return journey for taxis, and added that TAC was basically supportive of this suggestion.

The Hong Kong Kowloon Taxi and Lorry Owners' Association

6. Mr LEUNG Tat-chiu was dissatisfied with the taxi trade having been singled out for such unfavourable treatment and re-iterated the worry of higher operating costs since taxi drivers would have to take longer trips to return to their operating base after crossing the harbour. He remarked that the proposal would shift the costs from passengers to taxi operators and was inconsistent with the user-pays principle. Mr LEUNG urged the Administration to liaise with WHTCL for lowering the toll for taxis as the existing rate would deter them from using the Crossing.

The Joint Action Group of Taxi Trade on Concern on Tolls of Western Harbour Crossing

7. Mr CHOI Keung voiced his objection to administrative measures being used to interfere with free market competition, and was critical of the Administration's inconsistent approach in determining the taxi toll for different cross harbour tunnels. He suggested that WHTCL should charge only $10 for the return toll for taxis which were empty.

The Association of Urban Taxi Operators

8. Mr LEUNG Shiu-cheong said that the proposal would force taxi drivers to use time-consuming routes to return to the operating base after crossing the harbour, and this would have direct impact on the income of the taxi drivers and on the service quality of the trade. He added that the taxi charge recommended by TAC was based on an inaccurate estimate that only about 10% of taxis using CHT were empty, whereas the experience of the trade indicated that about 40% of taxis were empty. He asserted that a wrong conclusion had been drawn as the Administration had not conducted any surveys between 11:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. Mr LEUNG estimated that that one out of three taxis failed to have return hire, and those who succeeded in doing so might already have waited at the cross-harbour taxi stands for 30 minutes to one hour. He drew attention to the high operating costs for the trade and urged the Administration to adopt a uniform standard in determining the taxi tolls for all cross harbour tunnels. He was of the view that the taxi charge for WHC should be set at $60, and added that passengers would determine if it was worth paying the toll for using WHC.

The Taxi Drivers & Operators Association Ltd

9. Mr CHENG Yuk-kai re-iterated the view for the taxi charge for WHC to be fixed at $60. He also suggested the establishment of more cross-harbour taxi stands and expansion of the waiting areas for the existing stands; he stressed that administrative measures should not be used to strangle the trade's interest. Mr CHENG concluded that the Administration and members should not be unduly worried about low usage of WHC by taxis as passengers would use the Crossing so long as such a need existed.

10. Members were concerned about the discrepancy in figures quoted by the Administration and deputations regarding the number of taxis using cross-harbour tunnels without return hires. They enquired if the deputations had conducted surveys, in particular on the number and the time involved for taxis to cross the tunnels in each shift, and the average waiting time at the cross-harbour taxi stands. The deputations said in reply that no formal survey had been conducted and the figures quoted were from their daily experience. As regards waiting time at the cross-harbour taxi stands, they reckoned that it took about 30 minutes during rush hours, and between 45 minutes to 1 hour and 15 minutes for off-peak periods. They supported an independent survey to clarify members' concerns.

11. On the effect on the utilization of WHC if the taxi charge was set at $60, the deputations estimated that this should not affect unduly usage of WHC since passengers who wanted to save time would choose a congestion-free WHC irrespective of its toll. Furthermore, the intensive development in Kowloon West would also enhance usage of this Crossing, and the cost would be minimal when compared with the taxi fare from Hong Kong to the new Airport. In reply to members on how the WHTCL could charge $10 for the return journeys, the deputations proposed that the taxis could be issued with coupons when crossing the WHC on the outward journey; they would be charged $10 for the return journey if empty and upon production of the coupons.

Meeting with the Administration

12. Members enquired about the basis of the Administration's forecast of a taxi charge of $40 being able to encourage patronage for the WHC. They were also concerned with the discrepancy in data provided by the Administration and the deputations on the traffic flow. In response, the Deputy Commissioner for Transport (DC for T) and the Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Ferry & Paratransit) (AC for T(F&P)) advised that the recommended charge would promote usage of WHC at least for the outward journeys, and this would help spread out cross-harbour traffic. An estimated number of 59,000 vehicles daily, of which 15% were taxis, would use WHC following its opening in April 1997. DC for T explained that with the opening of WHC, there would be some relief to the congestion and queuing time at the Cross Harbour Tunnel. On the findings of about 10% of taxis using Cross Harbour Tunnel being empty, DC for T assured members that this was based on nine surveys conducted by the Administration, of which one was conducted at the same time with representatives of the taxi trade. The surveys covered different time periods including one 24-hour survey. AC for T (F&P) added that the recommended charge of $40 should not cause hardship or financial loss to the taxi trade. After crossing the harbour via the WHC, a taxi driver could return to the other side in one of four ways :

with passengers picked up on street, in which case the tunnel charges collected from passengers would exceed the tunnel tolls paid to the tunnel company(s) by $20;
with passengers picked up at cross harbour taxi stands, in which case the excess amount would be $10;
empty via the CHT or EHC in which case there would be no excess nor would there be any shortfall; and
empty via the WHC, in which case there would be a shortfall of $20.

Only in the worst scenario, he would have to top up the difference of $20. There should not be losses for taxi drivers overall.

13. The Commissioner for Transport (C for T) advised that in putting forward the present proposal, the Administration had taken into account a charge for the return journey, the need to spread out traffic and public acceptance. She emphasised that Transport Department had already carried out nine surveys on empty taxis. However, she saw no objection to commissioning a survey by an independent agency. She cautioned that the taxi charge for using WHC would need to be determined before the opening of WHC in April 1997 and it might take two and a half months to complete all necessary steps for amending the existing legislation. She confirmed the Administration's intention to conduct similar surveys after the opening of WHC to ascertain changes in traffic conditions at the three crossings, the utilisation and waiting time at the cross-harbour taxi stands, and the proportion of empty taxis crossing the harbour. The charging system would be reviewed if the findings of these surveys indicated a need to do so.

14. As regards the suggestion for the WHTCL to charge a taxi toll of $20 each for the outward and return journeys, or $30 for the outward journey and $10 for the return journey if empty, C for T advised that the latter option had in fact been raised with the management of WHTCL. The company had however declined the proposal on the ground that it would affect the company's financial position. On the proposal for charging different tolls for private cars and taxis, the Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure) (DS for T) advised that WHC had objected to this proposal as it might have an adverse effect on the repayment of loans and interests of WHTCL. Members were however of the view that these options were worthy of consideration, having regard to the fact that if taxis were charged higher than $10 for the return trip, the $10 might be lost to the two existing tunnels. The Panel decided to write to the WHTCL to invite representatives of WHTCL to the next meeting to address members' concern and to seek the company's response on the suggestions.

15. Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong was of the view that the Administration should also address the concerns of operators of other cross-harbour tunnels on the effect on the companies' finance as a result of the diversion of traffic to WHC. Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin supplemented that the Democratic Party had in fact met with the WHTCL on the taxi toll but to no avail. The Party's view was that the Company should discharge its responsibility to the community in easing congestion and should not base its considerations solely on the financial aspects.

IV Safety of the Light Rail Transit and Future Developments

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(04) & Information paper provided by the Administration)

16. Members were concerned about the safety of the Light Rail Transit and in particular accidents caused by drivers of Light Rail Vehicles (LRV) in jumping traffic lights, and enquired if red light cameras installed at junctions could detect such acts. In reply, the Assistant Commissioner for Transport (New Territories) (AC for T (NT)) and Chief Superintendent (Traffic Headquarters) (CS(TH)) acknowledged that the existing cameras were aimed only at drivers on the road. As regards traffic accidents, AC for T (NT) advised that there were about 200 to 300 road accidents in the district each year, and only 2 LRV drivers had been prosecuted and fined for careless driving and 1 LRV driver for reckless/careless driving since 1992. (Details are shown in the schedule attached.) Notwithstanding this, red light cameras would be set up to monitor the performance of LRV drivers. Two additional cameras would be installed within the next three months while more would be set up at busy LRT junctions in the near future. As for overall road safety in the Tuen Mun district, AC for T (NT) advised that improvements such as junction layout modifications, adjustment of traffic signals, provision of warning signs/reflective studs/road markings etc., had been carried out. In addition, the Administration would conduct a Traffic Study for Tuen Mun and Yuen Long in 1997 with a view to examining issues such as the overall traffic management and covering also the improvement of LRT junctions. The study would take into account traffic and safety benefits and other related environmental, cost and land considerations. Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin pointed out the inappropriateness of making reference to the low accident rate for LRT since the LRT had very low road usage.

17. On the types of vehicles involved in offences related to disobeying traffic light signals at LRT junctions, CS(TH) said that such data was not in hand and that there would be a need to go back on individual cases. He explained that it might at times be difficult to carry out prosecutions in the event of vehicles being blocked in the photographs taken. Nevertheless, the Administration had improved the system and would continue to monitor the situation.

18. In response to members, Mr Jonathan YU advised that the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation (KCRC) had conducted a series of training on driving skills for LRV drivers and their performance had been closely monitored. A defensive driving course had also been organized jointly with the Hong Kong School of Motoring for LRV drivers to strengthen their alertness on the road. Mr YU said, in response to a member's question, that previous traffic accidents involving LRVs did not indicate any linkage with the length of service of LRV drivers.

19. At the Chairman's invitation, Mr YU briefed the Panel on the future development of LRT with the aid of presentation materials. In essence, KCRC had planned to complete the Tin Shui Wai Extension loop to serve Kenswood Court and the Tin Tsz Estate areas, and would consider extending the LRT into the Tin Shui Wai Reserve Areas. In addition, consideration would also be given to the modification of four LRT stations to cope with increased traffic arising from the proposed Western Corridor Railway. Members were concerned about the fares, the size of land required for these extensions, and their effect on other transport facilities within the district. A member further suggested the provision of a LRT express to link up South Tin Shui Wai and interchanges with the Western Corridor Railway. DS for T and Mr YU undertook to provide the Panel with information on the above as well as the presentation materials prepared by KCRC.

Admin/KCRC

V Overloading of goods vehicles

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(05) & Extract of the minutes of the meeting held on 11 April 1996)

(Paper No. CB(1) 412/96-97(06) & Information paper provided by the Administration)

20. Members were concerned about the damage to roads and traffic accidents caused by overloading. They observed that drivers had the tendency to overload as the owners of the goods had already included the penalty payments in their operating costs, and enquired about the effectiveness of the amendments to penalties on overloading. Hon CHAN Kam-lam suggested that overloaded vehicles should be restricted from using bridges and flyovers to avoid accidents. CS(TH) said in response that the Police had already stepped up enforcement on overloading offences. Apart from considering setting up weightstations at entrance to new expressways, the Police had increased the use of mobile weighing devices at overloading blackspots. Clear guidelines had been issued to police officers and in the worst case scenario, drivers carrying weight exceeding 50% of the permitted gross vehicle weight would be arrested. There were other considerations in determining whether a driver would be prevented from carrying on with the journey e.g. the type of goods and whether it was insecure. In other minor cases drivers would be issued with fixed penalty tickets. At present there were no special arrangements to restrict goods vehicles using bridges and flyovers. CS(TH) undertook to provide the Panel with the total number of goods vehicles weighed and a comparison with the number of prosecutions taken. He also undertook to review the Police guidelines on the enforcement of overloading offences.

Admin

21. In response to members on the on-board weighing devices, the Principal Transport Officer said that there were many types of such devices and that these were used in overseas countries on a voluntary basis to assist drivers in estimating the actual weight of loaded vehicles. The Administration was still studying the practices overseas and had yet to come up with a conclusion. On members' concerns on whether the costs for installing these devices could be exempted from the First Registration Tax, C for T emphasized that this was only a preliminary proposal and would require further examination with the Transport Branch and the Finance Branch. Members were generally supportive of the proposal. Hon TSANG Kin-shing suggested that the installation of these devices should be made mandatory and the costs should be reimbursed from the licence and insurance fees so as to encourage drivers to install these devices. He believed that such expenses should be much lower than the cost required for repairing damaged road surface due to overloading of vehicles. At members' request, C for T undertook to provide members with information on the different types of on-board weighing devices, the installation costs, and the arrangements, in particular the financing arrangements, that would have to be put in place if the requirement were to be introduced.

Admin

VI Any other business

22. The meeting ended at 10:45 p.m.

Legislative Council Secretariat 6 January 1996

Last Updated on 22 August 1998