LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 960/96-97
(These minutes have been seen by the Administration)
Ref : CB1/PL/TP/1

LegCo Panel on Transport

Minutes of meeting held on
Friday, 10 January 1997, at 8:30 am
in Conference Room A of the Legislative Council Building

Members present:

    Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, OBE, JP (Chairman)
    Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin (Deputy Chairman)
    Hon Albert CHAN Wai-yip
    Hon LEE Wing-tat
    Dr Hon Samuel WONG Ping-wai, OBE, FEng, JP
    Hon CHAN Kam-lam
    Hon CHAN Wing-chan
    Hon CHEUNG Hon-chung
    Hon CHOY Kan-pui, JP
    Hon NGAN Kam-chuen
    Hon SIN Chung-kai
    Hon TSANG Kin-shing

Members absent:

    Hon Mrs Selina CHOW, OBE, JP
    Hon Edward S T HO, OBE, JP
    Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
    Hon Albert HO Chun-yan
    Hon LAU Chin-shek
    Dr Hon LAW Cheung-kwok
    Hon LEE Kai-ming
    Hon Lawrence YUM Sin-ling

Public officers attending:

Item IV

Transport Branch
Mr Gordon SIU, JP
Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)

Transport Department
Mrs Lily YAM, JP
Commissioner for Transport
Dr Dorothy CHAN, JP
Deputy Commissioner for Transport
Mr S C LEE, JP
Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Technical Services and Planning)

Item V

Transport Branch
Mr Gordon SIU, JP
Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Miss Maureen WONG
Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)

Transport Department
Mrs Lily YAM, JP
Commissioner for Transport
Dr Ernest LEE, JP
Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Management and Licensing)

For Item VI

Transport Branch
Mr Gordon SIU, JP
Secretary for Transport
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Miss Maureen WONG
Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)

Transport Department
Mrs Lily YAM, JP
Commissioner for Transport
Mr S C LEE, JP
Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Technical Services and Planning)

For Item VII

Transport Branch
Mr Paul LEUNG, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Infrastructure)
Miss Nancy LAW, JP
Deputy Secretary for Transport (Transport Management)
Mr Allan CHOW
Principal Assistant Secretary for Transport

Transport Department
Mrs Lily YAM, JP
Commissioner for Transport
Dr Ernest LEE, JP
Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Management and Licensing)

Highways Department
Mr C K LAU
Deputy Director of Highways
Mr Norman MAK
Chief Engineer (Kap Shui Mun)

Electrical and Mechanical Services Department
Mr TONG Kin-wah
Assistant Director (Projects and Plant Management)

Clerk in attendance:

Mrs Vivian KAM
Chief Assistant Secretary (1)2

Staff in attendance:

Mr Matthew LOO
Senior Assistant Secretary (1)4 (Acting)

IConfirmation of minutes of previous meetings

(LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 574/96-97

LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 575/96-97

LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 633/96-97

LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 634/96-97)

The minutes of the meetings held on 26 July, 16 August, 29 November and 6 December 1996 were confirmed.

2. The Chairman reported that the Overseas Study Tour would take place from 8 to 18 February 1997 and that the itinerary had been tabled at the meeting. Research relating to the study tour was underway and members would be informed of further details in due course.

IIDate of next meeting and items for discussion

(List of outstanding items for discussion)

3. The Panel agreed with the Administration’s proposal for splitting up the meeting on 24 January 1997 into two sessions. The first session would be a Panel meeting on the subject of Tolls for Lantau Link and the second would be a meeting of the Subcommittee on Western Corridor Railway. The Panel also agreed to include in the list of outstanding items for discussion "Road network systems to tie in with the opening of the Western Harbour Crossing and the Lantau Link", and "Transport facilities between the New Airport and other parts of Lantau Island and the outlying islands". At the request of members, the Clerk undertook to check with the Administration on whether the report on the public light bus policy review was available for members’ reference.

(Post-meeting note: The agenda for the Panel meeting on 24 January 1997 was revised to "Taxi fare revision" and "Government Monitoring Team for the Tsing Ma Control Area". As regards the report on the Public Light Bus Policy Review, the Administration advised that it would be available by end-January 1997.)

4. The Chairman advised that Hon LEE Wing-tat had written to express concerns on the facilities of No. 3 Pier in Central, in particular facilities for the disabled. As the subject was within the purview of the Planning, Lands and Works Panel, she would seek the Panel Chairman’s agreement for the subject to be taken up by the Planning, Lands and Works Panel.

(Post-meeting note: The item would be discussed at the meeting of the Planning, Lands and Works Panel on 18 February 1997, and members of the Transport Panel would be invited to join the meeting.)

IIIInformation papers issued since last meeting

(LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 524/96-97 provided by the Administration on the Kowloon-Canton Railway Traindoor incident on 27 July 1996

LegCo Paper No. CB(1) 595/96-97 provided by the Administration on the "Transport Study for the New Airport")

5. Two information papers, on the "Kowloon-Canton Railway Traindoor incident on 27 July 1996" and the "Transport Study for the New Airport", were circulated to members vide LegCo Papers No. CB(1) 524 and 595/96-97 respectively.

IVProposed creation of a Principal Government Engineer post in Transport Department

(Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97(01) provided by the Administration)

6. The Commissioner for Transport (C for T) advised that the workload and responsibility of the Transport Department (TD) had, as a result of growth in population and economic activities, increased substantially in the past few years in the four major areas of transport planning, public transport services, infrastructure development and technological development. The nature of work of the Department had direct impact on citizens and most issues called for immediate action; the Department’s interface with the public had also increased. With seven officers underpinning the Deputy Commissioner for Transport (DC for T), the span of control by the DC for T was too wide and this had resulted in the C for T taking up a number of issues directly with relevant D2 officers. A senior directorate officer with engineering background was required to strengthen directorate input on transport planning and traffic engineering issues and relieve DC for T of the exceedingly heavy workload. The proposed post of Principal Government Engineer (PGE), to be designated as Deputy Commissioner for Transport (Planning and Technical Services) (DC for T (P & TS)), would be responsible for transport planning and the development of strategic transport infrastructure for the territory, including cross-border links, and for contributing to reviews on traffic management.

7. On the division of responsibilities of the two DC for Ts, C for T affirmed that each would focus on specific areas. The existing post of DC for T, to be re-designated as Deputy Commissioner for Transport (Management and Operations) (DC for T (M & O)), would oversee the work of five Assistant Commissioners for Transport (AC for T) including two in charge of regional offices. The proposed post of PGE would oversee the work of Government Engineer/Port and Airport Development (GE/PAD), Chief Engineer (Transport Planning), Chief Engineer (Electronic Road Pricing) and another AC for T. On the interaction with the regional AC for Ts, the DC for T (P & TS) would provide professional advice on traffic engineering matters to the regional offices. However, the regional AC for Ts would continue to be responsible to the DC for T (M&O) administratively. C for T advised that to enhance co-ordination and allow for flexibility in work schedules, senior staff in TD held weekly meetings to discuss transport related issues.

8. As regards the existing post of Chief Engineer responsible for the study on the Electric Road Pricing System, C for T explained that this was only a supernumerary post and would be subject to review upon completion of the study by the end of 1999. Since Engineer was a common grade within the Administration, the incumbent would be transferred to fill other vacancies if the post were to lapse. Another post of Chief Engineer/Transport Planning was responsible for overall transport planning and there was a permanent need for this post. To reflect the policy for the new PGE post to be filled by officers from the Engineer grade, she agreed with a member’s suggestion for designating DC for T (P & TS) as DC for T (P & TS)(PGE) departmentally.

9. The Chairman advised that the Panel had no objection to the creation of the post and that the proposal was to be considered by the Establishment Subcommittee at the meeting on 29 January 1997 as proposed by the Administration.

VSolo driving within premises of driving schools

(Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97(02) provided by the Administration in November 1994 enclosing the Consumer Council’s report on driving instruction in Hong Kong and driving test arrangements

Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97(03) provided by the Administration in November 1996

Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97(04) provided by the Administration in January 1997)

10. The Chairman advised that in addition to the paper provided by the Administration for the current meeting, information papers on the subject provided in November 1996 and November 1994, together with a copy of the Consumer Council’s report issued in 1994 had also been circulated. In response to the Chairman concerning the Administration’s stance on the Consumer Council’s report on driving instruction in Hong Kong and driving test arrangements, the Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Management and Licensing) (AC for T (M & L)) said that the Administration agreed with the recommendation in the report for encouraging competition within the driving instruction industry. He advised that the Administration was conducting a policy review on the trade and collating views from both the trade and the public. The review should be completed in mid-1997.

11. Members were concerned with safety measures that would be in place in allowing learner drivers to take up solo training after 12 hours of practical sessions. They also sought clarifications on the rationale for introducing solo driving after 12 hours of practical sessions, and an assurance on the reliability of the instructor-to-learner driver ratio of 1 to 3. In response, AC for T (M & L) advised that the Administration had drawn on experiences overseas in arriving at the proposed arrangements. Safety was the prime concern of the Administration and the proposed mode of training would be instrumental in enhancing a learner driver’s confidence in handling a vehicle on his own. He emphasized that such training would be optional and would only be conducted at dedicated fenced off areas within driving school premises, and aided by such facilities as remote engine cut-off systems and accelerator restrictors. Furthermore, learner drivers would have to pass a competence test before they were allowed to take up solo driving training. Completion of such training did not imply that learner drivers could take to the road by themselves since 35 to 40 hours practical training sessions were normally required before they could be ready. While the operation cost of driving schools might be reduced with one instructor looking after three learner drivers at the same time for solo training, the schools would also have to invest in the necessary facilities for such training. The saving of resources would also relieve pressure on fee increases. AC for T (M & L) re-iterated that safety and confidence of the learner drivers were the Administration’s prime concerns and that costs were only secondary considerations.

12. On the legal basis for the solo training trial scheme launched in the Hong Kong School of Motoring (HKSM) since 1990, AC for T (M & L) advised that the present arrangement was allowed on a trial basis; the Driving Licence Regulations would soon be amended. The Road Traffic Ordinance conferred upon the C for T the authority to revise the Code of Practice for HKSM to require it to provide necessary safeguards for solo training. As regards the monitoring of the performance of HKSM, he advised that a Driving Examiner I from the Transport Department would visit HKSM on a weekly basis to observe the daily operation and examine records of the School. Other Driving Examiners would also report inadequacies observed when conducting examinations in HKSM. As regards a recent case in Yuen Long where the HKSM had purportedly undertaken activities prior to agreement by the District Board, AC for T (M & L) said that the issue had been resolved satisfactorily.

13. Members were concerned with the impact of the proposal on the business of non-HKSM driving instructors. AC for T (M & L) said in response that the proposed training would only be conducted within driving schools premises off the road and should have no impact on the business of non-HKSM driving instructors. Furthermore, he emphasized that HKSM only had a 40% market share of the trade and this percentage had remain unchanged for many years. On the possibility of extending solo training to non-HKSM learner drivers, C for T and AC for T (M & L) advised that the proposed training was only part of a full driving instruction course, and the driving school had to adopt a number of measures including equipping vehicles with additional safety devices as requested by the Administration to ensure a high safety standard in conducting such training exercises. The Administration would encourage the provision of such training in other recognized driving schools, and persons interested in organizing such training could apply to the Administration. A member suggested that in order to provide assistance to non-driving school instructors, consideration should be given to providing a training venue by the Administration for lease by non-driving school instructors. The Secretary for Transport undertook to consider the suggestion in the context of the policy review on the driving instruction industry.

VIClosed circuit television system in Sha Tin

(Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97(05) provided by the Administration)

Admin

14. In response to the Chairman, the Assistant Commissioner for Transport (Technical Services and Planning) (AC for T (TSP)) advised that the area traffic control (ATC) system in Sha Tin New Town covered 83 junctions, and that preparation work for inviting tenders for the project was underway. He explained that the delay in the installation of the system was on account of the redeployment of resources for other more urgent duties such as the implementation of the closed circuit television CCTV and traffic surveillance and information systems in Tuen Mun Road. He affirmed however that the cost of the proposed CCTV system would remain at the level estimated in 1994 when the Finance Committee approved the project owing to the highly competitive market of electronic equipment. He assured members that the Administration had taken account of latest developments in Sha Tin New Town when identifying CCTV locations, and undertook to provide the Panel with a plan showing the locations of the 83 junctions and the 19 CCTV cameras proposed for Sha Tin New Town.

15. On the effectiveness of the system on traffic control, AC for T (TSP) explained that based on the feedback from detectors under the road, the system could adjust the timing of traffic signals automatically depending on the traffic flow. The addition of CCTVs in ATC systems would further facilitate operators in adjusting signal timings in emergency situations causing abnormal traffic flow. In addition to Transport Department offices in Wanchai and Mongkok, the system would be linked to the Police Public Relations Bureau (PPRB) and the Police Regional Command and Control Centre in Tai Po to enable Traffic Police to monitor traffic conditions effectively. He also clarified that due to the low resolution of CCTV cameras, images taken by this system were inadequate to be used as evidences for prosecuting drivers for suspected traffic offences. AC for T (TSP) took note of members’ suggestion for an information system similar to that in Tuen Mun Road and advised that this would be considered upon the completion of studies on the provision, operation and maintenance of intelligent transport systems on expressways and trunk roads in Hong Kong; the installation of red light cameras in ATC areas to deter motorists from jumping lights would also be examined at the same time.

Admin

16. Members noted that the media could only obtain updated information on traffic conditions from PPRB, and enquired if the Administration could arrange for direct transmission of the CCTV pictures to the mass media. C for T undertook to consider this suggestion and to provide the Panel with a paper setting out current arrangements for disseminating information on traffic conditions to the public. AC for T (TSP) affirmed in response to a member that the acquisition of leased telecommunications services for the proposed system referred to in the information paper was for transmission of CCTV pictures.

17. The Chairman concluded that the Panel had no objection to the proposed system and that the proposal would be considered further by the Public Works Subcommittee.

VIIAny other business

Government Monitoring Team for the Tsing Ma Control Area

(Paper No. CB(1) 628/96-97 provided by the Administration)

18. The Chairman advised that the Bills Committee on the Tsing Ma Control Area Bill expressed reservations at the staffing complement of the Government Monitoring Team (GMT) for the Tsing Ma Control Area (TMCA) and had referred the subject to the Panel. C for T and AC for T (M&L) advised that the team comprised representatives from TD, Highways Department and Electrical and Mechanical Services Department. Dedicated monitoring teams were required because the TMCA was long and complex, and the only road access to the New Airport. 17 officers from TD, consisting mostly of Transport Officers and Transport Controllers, would be responsible for monitoring the performance of the operator of the TMCA to ensure a high standard of performance and compliance with contract requirements. These officers would also man a 24-hour Communications Centre at TD Headquarters which would serve as a first contact point for incidents and emergencies in TMCA as well as territory-wide. Engineers and Technical Officers would be responsible for monitoring the maintenance of computer softwares to ensure the smooth operation of the TMCA, and co-ordinating the functions of operators of adjoining infrastructure. Taking into account additional staff for traffic prosecutions within TMCA and an Accounting Officer for auditing revenues of the operator, the GMT would comprise a total of 29 representatives from TD. AC for T (M&L) added that this represented the minimum level of staffing required.

Admin

19. Some members pointed out that the Administration’s role in the TMCA should be confined to the monitoring of the performance of the operator, and as such the need for the 66 posts for the GMT was not convincing. They were of the view that staffing for traffic management adjoining the Area should not come under the Team. A member also doubted the need for designating a traffic prosecutions team solely for TMCA. In response, C for T explained that the Administration had yet to develop experience in operating multi-disciplinary and complex projects with such an extensive coverage as the TMCA and adequate expertise and input from various fronts were essential to oversee its operation. Some members of the GMT were not deployed solely on monitoring duties and others were to help out in other TD functions such as traffic management of approach roads to the Lantau Link. Moreover, as TMCA would be the only road link to North Lantau and the New Airport, it was vital for the Team to be adequately and appropriately staffed to ensure safe and uninterrupted access to the New Airport. Members were however not totally convinced of the need for such an establishment for the GMT. A member pointed out for comparison purpose that one Chief Transport Officer was responsible for transport management for the whole of New Territories West. They requested further clarifications from the Administration on the composition of GMT, with a view to further discussing this item at the meeting on 24 January 1997. The Administration undertook to provide the following information:

  1. the job descriptions and scope of responsibilities of staff in GMT, and a comparison with the complement of TD staff responsible for traffic monitoring elsewhere in Hong Kong;
  2. the power of prosecution in the TMCA;
  3. co-ordination plans amongst Government departments in TMCA during emergency situations;
  4. staffing of the franchisee for TMCA; and
  5. an assessment of traffic flow on the Tsing Ma Bridge and contingencies for traffic accidents on the Bridge and arrangements for "dumped" vehicles.

20. To allow sufficient time for discussion of this item, as well as proposals from the HyD and EMSD, members decided to advance the commencement time of the meeting on 24 January 1997 from 8:30 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. As a related issue, members requested the Administration to provide papers simultaneously in English and Chinese one week ahead of Panel meetings and to avoid the tabling of papers at meetings as far as possible.

21. The meeting ended at 10:25 a.m.

Legislative Council Secretariat
26 February 1997

Last Updated on 22 August 1998