OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Saturday, 12 April 1997
The Council met at half-past Nine o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT

THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE MARIA TAM WAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

MEMBER ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

CLERK IN ATTENDANCE:

MS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH

CLERK TO THE PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, we have four items of business on today's Agenda. The first one is Mr IP Kwok-him's Amendments to the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests. The second item is resumption of debate on Mrs Selina CHOW's motion regarding the Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. The amendments moved by Ms Maria TAM and Mr IP Kwok-him will be debated together with the original motion. Since these two items both relate to the Rules of Procedure, I will deal with them first. Regarding the third item, as government bills should be given priority for inclusion in the Agenda, assuming that the Rules of Procedure have then been passed, I will, in accordance with the Rules of Procedure and the Basic Law, give that priority to and proceed with the Holidays (1997 and 1998) Bill presented to this Council by the Government. The fourth item will be Mrs Selina CHOW's motion on the Operation of the Finance Committee, House Committee and Committee on Members' Interests. Before the meeting starts dealing with the first motion, I would like to inform Members that the following rules will be applied to today's meeting. But after this Council has adopted the Rules of Procedure, the meeting will then be conducted in accordance with the same.

The business of today's meeting shall be transacted in accordance with the following rules:

(1) The quorum of the Council shall be one half of all its Members, that is, 30 Members.

(2) Members may address the Council in either Cantonese, Putonghua or English.

(3) When the debate on each motion takes place, I will first call upon the mover of the motion to give an introductory speech and to move the motion. After the motion has been moved, I will then invite Members to speak. Members may, make any comment or request further information as they wish when delivering their speeches. The mover of the motion will respond to all comments or requests for further information in the final reply. With the exception of the mover of the motion, each Member should not speak more than once nor exceeding 15 minutes on each motion. Thirteen minutes into a Member's speech, a bell will ring to remind the Member of the time. The bell will ring again at the 15th minute, upon then I will direct the Member to discontinue the speech. I also wish Members would note that their speeches must be relevant to the question under discussion.

(4) Voting shall be done by voice vote. Any Member who wishes to claim a division should do so by a show of hand before I declare the result of the voice vote. After the division bell has rung for three minutes, we will proceed to a division by using the electronic voting system. After the result of that voting has been shown, I will read out the result and the voting record will be printed and distributed to Members after the meeting. Should a failure of the equipment occur, we will revert the division to a show of hands.

Regarding the three-minute waiting time, I would permit Members to move without notice that the waiting time be shortened, especially when we need to hold a series of voting for the same motion.

All questions put shall be decided by a majority of the votes of Members present and voting.

The meeting shall now start.

MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The first motion: Amendments to the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests. Mr Frederick FUNG.

AMENDMENTS TO THE RESOLUTION ON REGISTRATION OF MEMBERS' INTERESTS

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to inquire about the last sentence that you have just said, which is: "All questions put shall be decided by a majority of the votes of Members present and voting". By "majority", do you mean a great majority or simply more than one half of the number of votes?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FUNG, We have already adopted a practice which has been applied to the last two meetings. Mr FUNG should be well aware of such. Let us continue with our business.

The first motion: Amendments to the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests. Mr IP Kwok-him.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, on behalf of the Working Group on Administrative Matters (the Working Group), I move that paragraph (5)(f) of the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests made and passed by the Provisional Legislative Council on 22 March 1997 be amended. The paragraph, if amended, should read as follows:

"any payments or any material benefits or advantages received by the Member or his spouse arising out of his membership of the Council from or on behalf of:

(i) any government or organization of a place outside Hong Kong; or

(ii) any person who is not a Hong Kong permanent resident;".

Madam President, at the PLC meeting held on 22 March 1997, I moved on behalf of the Working Group a motion concerning the registration of Members' interests and several Members raised questions to seek clarification on the Working Group's definition of the terms "foreign governments, organizations or persons". In response to such requests, I agreed that the Working Group would conduct follow-up studies with a view to making the relevant provision to reflect more accurately the various requirements.

The purpose of keeping a Register of Members' Interests is to provide the public with particulars of such pecuniary interests or other material benefits received by Members that may reasonably be regarded as having a bearing on how Members behave, speak or vote at Council meetings. An important consideration is whether any Member would be suspected of trying to exert influence on policy-making government officials for the sake of personal interests. Information concerning any payments or any material benefits or advantages received by a Member arising out of his membership of the Provisional Legislative Council from overseas sources could reflect the relationship between the Member and such overseas organizations. One area of concern is whether contacts between a Member and other regions in mainland China (as well as Taiwan and Macau) would have the same implications.

With effect from 1 July 1997, China will restore its exercise of sovereignty over Hong Kong and practise the principle of "one country, two systems" in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR), which is by then a part of the People's Republic of China. Members' performance in the Council will certainly be subject to certain kinds of pressure, some of which may be related to their personal interests. Consideration should therefore be given to the question of whether material benefits received by Members from other regions in mainland China (Taiwan and Macau included) should be regarded the same as those received from foreign governments, organizations or persons and hence need to be declared separately. In view of the purpose of the Register of Members' Interests, the Working Group generally opined that the term "overseas" should be defined as "places outside Hong Kong" so that the relevant provision can reflect more accurately the various requirements.

It has been pointed out during the course of deliberation that by declaring any pecuniary interests received from foreign governments or organizations, Members may have contravened Article 23 of the Basic Law which prohibits political organizations or bodies of the SAR from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies.

However, some other members of the Working Group were of the opinion that the purpose of specifying advantages received from foreign organizations as registrable interests is to ensure that other Members and public officers could study such information and then decide whether any conflict of interests has occurred. As such, under no circumstances should the declaration of such interests be construed as legalizing the contacts between a Member and the foreign political organizations or bodies. Regarding contacts with foreign organizations, no matter pecuniary interest is involved or not, Members should decide for themselves whether such contacts are lawful. The registration of any pecuniary interests received from foreign organizations will not waive the responsibility to bear the inevitable legal consequences for any Members.

The term "foreign persons" generally refers to persons whose status as "Hong Kong Permanent Residents" cannot be established under the Immigration Ordinance. In the guideline provided for Members, the meaning of the term is identical to the definition of "permanent residents of Hong Kong" set out in the Basic Law.

Madam President, to clarify the interpretation of certain terms used in the Resolution on Registration of Members's Interest passed by the Council on 22 March 1997, I move that the motion on the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests as set out under my name on the Agenda be approved.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That paragraph (5)(f) of the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests made and passed by the Council on 22 March 1997 be amended ─

By deleting: "any payments or any material benefits or advantages received from or on behalf of foreign governments, organizations or persons",

And substituting: "any payments or any material benefits or advantages received from or on behalf of

(i) any government or organization of a place outside Hong Kong; or

(ii) any person who is not a Hong Kong permanent resident".

We shall now proceed to a debate. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr WONG Siu-yee.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have reservations about the Honourable IP Kwok-him's motion. I have always been of the view that paragraph (5)(f) of the motion on registration of Members' interests is rather inappropriate and unclear. As I have pointed out at the meeting of the Working Group on Administrative Matters held on 9 March and subsequently in my letter dated 27 March (previously circulated vide PLC Paper No. 93/96-97) to Mr IP Kwok-him, Chairman of the Working Group, items to be declared under this paragraph might be regarded as a contravention of Article 23 of the Basic Law. Although Mr IP has made some amendments to the paragraph, they are mere technical amendments. Regarding the amended motion, I have also pointed out that the Register of Members' Interests should not cover anything the legality of which is questionable. In my opinion, the proposed amendments should be listed as prohibitions. I will therefore maintain my view. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are there any more Members who wish to speak? Mr BRUCE LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not agree with the argument put forth by the Honourable WONG Siu-yee. What we are talking about is registration of interests, a declaration by every Member on the assistance he or she has received from organizations outside Hong Kong. Could such be regarded as an act in breach of the law, or an offence against the law? The Basic Law has yet to come into operation in Hong Kong. Besides, there is not any criminal law stating that such an act is illegal. In the absence of a criminal offence that defines, in accordance with relevant criminal law, such act being illegal, all we could say is that the Member might have breached certain laws or the Basic Law. However, this is far from being precise. We are now asking Members to declare their interests only, should such a declaration constitute an offence in contravention of Article 23 of the Basic Law in future, we would then make the appropriate amendments. But this would only take place at a later date. As far as today is concerned, I urge Members to pass this motion on the registration of Members' interests to avoid any further complications. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Mr IP Kwok-him, do you wish to reply?

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): I would like to reiterate one point and that is: The purpose of requiring Members to declare their interests is to ensure that our work in the Provisional Legislative Council could be more transparent to the public. It also enables the public to have access to the various kinds of information about us. Regarding the amendment moved to paragraph (5)(f) ─ I did listen to the Honourable WONG Siu-yee's views ─ I personally believe that the Working Group has in fact discussed the subject in very great detail. I hope very much that Members will support my motion on that amendment. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare the motion is carried.

ADOPTION OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second motion: Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. The motion was moved by Mrs Selina CHOW at the meeting held on 22 March, and it was agreed then that the debate on this motion should be adjourned. Mrs Selina CHOW has given notice to resume the debate in this meeting. The wording of the motion moved by Mrs Selina CHOW is: That the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region set out in the Schedule be adopted. The motion with schedule has been set out in the PLC Paper Nos. 69,75 and 77/96-97 as well as on the Revised Agenda.

Ms Maria TAM and Mr IP Kwok-him have respectively given notices to move amendments to the motion. The amendments have been circulated vide PLC Paper Nos. 112 and 110/ 96-97. I propose that the original motion and the amendments be debated together in a joint debate, so that Members could express their views more conveniently.

Council will now debate the original motion and the two amendments together in a joint debate. I will call upon Ms Maria TAM to speak first, to be followed by Mr IP Kwok-him. Members may then express their views on the original motion as well as on the proposed amendments listed on the Revised Agenda. Lastly, I will call upon the two Members to move their amendments respectively.

Ms Maria TAM.

MS MARIA TAM (in Cantonese) : Madam President, I will move later on that the amendment set out under my name on the Revised Agenda be approved.

The Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW has proposed a motion on the Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region on 22 March 1997, this motion has already been examined and passed by the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (Working Group). My amendment has also gone through the same process.

The Council agreed to adjourn the debate on the motion moved by Mrs Selina CHOW at the meeting held on 22 March, so as to provide Members with opportunities to examine the Rules of Procedure in detail. The Working Group conducted a meeting on 27 March and invited all interested Members to attend. Apart from the members of the Working Group itself, nine other Council Members also attended the meeting and expressed their opinions on the Rules of Procedure. In addition, the Working Group has also received opinions in written form from a Member who could not attend the meeting.

In the process of drafting the Rules of Procedure, the Working Group has observed the principle that a set of Rules of Procedure be prepared for the Council as soon as possible to enable it to start on its work early. Therefore, some places in the draft Rules of Procedure do require further discussion and study in the future. After considering the opinions of our colleagues, the Working Group has agreed to put forward the following 11 groups of amendments under my name.

The first group of amendments is to delete "於一九九七年三月二十二日訂立" from the preamble, and substitute with "於一九九七年四月十二日訂立"; that is today.

The second group of amendments is to delete the stipulation in relation to the swearing in procedure at the first meeting of the Provisional Legislative Council after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR). Why should such wording be deleted? The Working Group noticed that the Provisional Legislative Council Members may have to swear in in accordance with Article 104 of the Basic Law as soon as possible after the establishment of the SAR. The swearing in ceremony may have to take place before the first meeting of the Provisional Legislative Council after the establishment of the SAR. The Working Group therefore proposed to delete Rule 12(1) from the Rules of Procedure and amend the related provisions.

The third group of amendments is to add "由臨時立法會主席決定，並" after "臨時立法會議程" in Rule 19(1). It is a reflection of Article 72(2) of the Basic Law, under which the President of the Provisional Legislative Council can exercise her power to decide on the agenda of the Council meeting.

The fourth group of amendments has been made to follow the present practice of the Legislative Council in relation to the restriction on motions and amendments as well as amendments to bills, and to amend two applicable provisions in the Rules of Procedure. That is to delete "does not oppose expressly" after "the Chief Executive" in Rules 31(c) and 57(6)(c) and substitute "consents" which means the Chief Executive consents in writing.

The fifth group of amendments is to delete the phrase "prescribed by law" from Rule 50(5) since, there will no longer be an enactment formula "prescribed by law" under the Royal Instructions after 1 July 1997.

The sixth group of amendments is to delete from Rule 51(4) "政務司長簽署的證明書，說明將於二讀時示明" and to delete from Rule 51(5) "由政務司長簽署的". The purpose of these amendments is to embody Article 74 of the Basic Law, which stipulates that the written consent of the Chief Executive shall be required before bills relating to government policies are introduced.

The seventh group of amendments is to put down specifically in the Rules of Procedure the Basic Law provision that the Legislative Council, if necessary, can exercise its power to summon related persons to bear witness and give evidence. In order to incorporate the above provision into the Rules of Procedure, a new Rule 79A is added, stating that committees under the Provisional Legislative Council are vested with this power. This new rule also lists out the provision in the Basic Law, that is, the Chief Executive shall "decide, in the light of security and vital public interests, whether government officials or other personnel in charge of government affairs should testify or give evidence before the (Provisional) Legislative Council or its committees". Consequential upon the addition of this new rule, all provisions in the Rules of Procedure citing the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance (Cap. 382) to summon witness should therefore be deleted. The amended provisions include Rules 75(17), 76(11), 77(15) and 79(11), and there are also some other consequential amendments.

The eighth group of amendments is to delete Rules 88 and 89 from the Rules of Procedure. These two Rules set out the procedure for Members to attend as witness in civil proceedings and the procedure for Members to provide evidence in the proceedings of Council meetings. Since these two Rules are based on similar stipulations in the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance, which is not applicable to the Provisional Legislative Council before 1 July 1997, and certain adjustments would therefore have to be made before it can be applied even after 1 July, the Working Group believed that the citation of this Ordinance in the Rules of Procedure should be avoided before the scope of amendment has been made clear. The consequential amendments are to delete Rule 88(1)(k), and to re-number Rule 88(1)(1) as Rule 88(1)(k).

The ninth group of amendments is made to reflect the Honourable IP Kwok-him's amended motion as passed on 22 March 1997. Mr IP's amendment is to add "因其議員身分" after "配偶" in 5(f) of his motion. A corresponding amendment has therefore to be made to the original Rule 82(5)(f) in the Rules of Procedure.

The tenth group of amendments is to delete the definition of "appointed officers" and substitute with "Government" in the original Rule 92(c). The purpose is to state expressly that before 1 July 1997, reference to "Government" in the Rules of Procedure shall be reference to the Chief Executive of the SAR and reference to "public officer" shall be reference to staff of the Chief Executive's Office.

The eleventh group of amendments, which is also the last group of amendments, is to re-number Rule 79A as Rule 80, and there are also other rules that need to be re-numbered. All these amendments are solely technical in nature.

Madam President, before the commencement of this meeting, a Member who had expressed his views on the meeting held on 27 March in Shenzhen remarked that he had asked for a list of items which require further study. I have informed him that this list would soon be ready. Finally, Madam President, I hope that Members will lend their support to these 11 groups of amendments.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): At the Council meeting held on 22 March 1997, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW moved a motion on the Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. I propose that Rule 82(5)(f) (Registration of Interests) in the Schedule to her motion be amended by deleting "從外國政府、組織或人士所收受或代表外國政府、組織或人士所收受的款項、實惠或實利" and substituting －

“從－

(i) 香港以外的政府或組織；或

(ii) 非香港永久性居民之人士

所收受或代表上述政府、組織或人士所收受的款項、實惠或實利；”

I hereby move that the motion mentioned above be amended by my proposed amendment. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese) : Does any Member wish to speak? Mr Ambrose LAU.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, in accordance with the decision made by the Preparatory Committee on 1 February 1997 concerning the implementation of work by the first Chief Executive of the Special Administrative Region (SAR) and that of the Provisional Legislative Council before 30 June 1997, this Council is vested with power to scrutinize and pass bills before 30 June; and to confirm the bills passed before presenting them to the Chief Executive for signature, promulgation and implementation upon the establishment of the SAR. In view of such, the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance agrees that the Rules of Procedure of this Council should incorporate the relevant proceedings, so that we could pass bills through the three reading before 1 July, and confirm those bills on 1 July before presenting them to the Chief Executive for signature, promulgation and implementation.

There are three advantages in passing the bills through the three readings before 1 July. Firstly, a strict and rigorous legislative process as well as the completeness of the laws can be guaranteed. By avoiding the trouble of going through the three readings of bills all at one time on 1 July, we can have enough time to improve on the legislation during the enactment process. Secondly, the risk of a legal vacuum could be avoided for if we cannot complete in time the three readings of bills which are indispensable to the operation of the SAR on 1 July, there will be a period of legal vacuum detrimental to the interests of Hong Kong people. Thirdly, if we can complete the three readings of bills before 1 July, the Bills Committees can still have time to consult the public's views and collect constructive ideas from the different sectors of society. By so doing, the Provisional Legislative Council can maintain a democratic, open and transparent operation, thereby giving a public base to all the laws passed.

Madam President, regarding the Rules of Procedure, I think we can adopt the present version and supplement it further in accordance with the working needs of the Council in the future. This will enable the Provisional Legislative Council to have a reasonable and smooth operation, hence a gradual improvement process for the Rules of Procedure. Madam President, with these remarks, I support the amendment.

PRESIDENT(in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I am speaking on behalf of the Provisional Legislative Council Members who belong to the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB). This Council has a very important historical mission, that is, to ensure a smooth handover and a stable transition on 1 July 1997, as well as the normal operation of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR). It is therefore very important for us to have a set of Rules of Procedure which is both effective and reasonable. In my opinion, the rules should be drafted in accordance with three principles. Firstly, the Basic Law as well as the decisions made by the National People's Congress and the Preparatory Committee in relation to the Provisional Legislative Council should form the fundamental basis. Secondly, the present Rules of Procedure should be adopted as a blueprint upon which further relevant amendments and adaptations would be made. Thirdly, the Provisional Legislative Council should only have one set of Rules of Procedure and there should not be any difference before or after 1 July. I am pleased that all these principles are recognized by the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (Working Group), and that they have been fully discussed and embodied when the Working Group studied the provisions in detail.

Regarding whether the Provisional Legislative Council should enact laws before 1 July, the DAB, after careful consideration, is of the opinion that in accordance with the decision of the Preparatory Committee in relation to the Provisional Legislative Council, the Provisional Legislative Council can scrutinize and pass bills before 1 July, and confirm the passed bills before presenting them to the Chief Executive for signature, promulgation and implementation upon the establishment of the SAR. However, the DAB would like to stress that this enactment process should be applied only to those laws which must be put into effect on 1 July. As to the confirmation of bills after the establishment of the SAR, the DAB opines that the procedure for the confirmation of bills in the Rules of Procedure should only be applied to bills which have already passed the three readings before 1 July. Since this Council agrees that the period of legal vacuum on 1 July should be minimized, no debates or amendments should therefore be proposed during the confirmation procedure, and the Council should solely handle the confirmation of only one or several bills. To my understanding, the best way to implement this procedure is to propose it in the form of a motion without notice. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have several points to make in relation to the Rules of Procedure.

Firstly, I think the current Rules of Procedure should be consistent with the existing Standing Orders of the present Legislative Council as far as possible.

Secondly, I hope that the Rules of Procedure will not contravene the letter and spirit of the Basic Law.

Thirdly, I hope the relevant provisions in the Basic Law can be retained and adapted to the Rules of Procedure to avoid discrepancies.

Fourthly, we should get rid of the past practice of using English style Chinese when drafting the Rules of Procedure This problem is perhaps due to the fact that the Standing Orders were translated from English into Chinese in the past. With regard to the amendments proposed by the Honourable Ms Maria TAM just now, there are certain points that I would like to clarify. Firstly, it is about the deletion of certain wording and procedures from the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance and substitute with a new Rule 79A. Undoubtedly, the representation of new Rule 79A is very good and clear. However, by deleting the citation of the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance from the Rules of Procedure, will it give people an impression that we have already repealed this Ordinance, while in reality the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress has never repealed it? In addition, this same Ordinance is still cited in Rules 88(1) and 89(1). Problems might emerge as a result of this different treatment. I think this point has to be clarified. Secondly, Ms Maria TAM has listed out in new Rule 79A that the Chief Executive can decide, in the light of security and vital public interests, whether government officials or other personnel in charge of government affairs should testify or give evidence before the Provisional Legislative Council or its committees. This paragraph is in fact modelled on the provision of the Basic Law. I would like to ask the mover of the original motion, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW, whether the Working Group has considered this point when discussing the original Rules of Procedure? If so, whether this point was included in the Rules of Procedure at that time? This is the second point which I would like to seek clarification. The third point is when Ms Maria TAM said that the amendment to Rule 88 is to delete subrule (1)(k) and substitute with subrule (1)(1), she might have made a minor mistake. I guess she should be referring to Rule 18, that is, to replace subrule (1)(k) by subrule (1)(1). This is only a minor amendment. The fourth point of clarification is in relation to Rule 82(5)(f), which is to add "因其議員身分 " after "配偶". I totally agree to adding these words to this Rule, but the wording of Rule 82(5)(f) will be a little different from that of Rule 82(5)(e) after the addition. In Rule 82(5)(f), if only "因其議員身分" is added, then the meaning of subrule (5)(e) would become "relating to or arising out of membership of the Council". These few words may cause some differences in meaning. This might be a small problem, but I think it is better to make the wording consistent.

The fifth point is that Ms Maria TAM proposes to delete the paragraph relating to "appointed officer" from Rule 92(c) and substitute with "Government or the Chief Executive". I think that this paragraph is suitable for explaining some phrases or some phrases in the Rules of Procedure. It would be improper if we delete "appointed officer" because this term is also found in many places, including Rules 18(g), 21(1),(2), (3), (4), (5) and 28(1) and so on. If this phrase is deleted without further explanation, I am afraid that it might give rise to confusion. If this paragraph is retained, perhaps it will help to clarify the meaning of the Rules of Procedure. I would like to seek clarification on the above points. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to add three points on behalf of the Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL). The first one is related to Rule 57 of the Rules of Procedure, that is, Amendments to Bills. Article 74 of the Basic Law provides that Members of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) may introduce bills in accordance with the provisions of the Basic Law and legal procedures, and that bills which do not relate to public expenditure or political structure or the operation of the Government may be introduced individually or jointly by Members of the Council. However, written consent of the Chief Executive shall be required before bills relating to government policies are introduced. Similar provisions are also mirrored in other Rules of the Rules of Procedure. There has been an opinion that such a restriction, together with the requirement that any amendment bills relating to government policies must first obtain written consent from the Chief Executive, could in fact ensure a balanced relationship between the executive and the legislature, thereby enabling the executive-lead government system to operate more efficiently. Regarding this opinion, the ADPL, however, have some doubts and disagreement due to the following reasons. Firstly, if this arrangement is employed to restrict Members' power to move amendments to laws enacted by the Government to the extent that amendment bills relating to government policies could not be proposed, then the monitoring function of the legislature would be severely hampered. Such a hamstringing arrangement which is indeed very inappropriate. The existing Legislative Council is empowered to move amendments to government policies. We do not want to see that the future legislature of the SAR, or the present Provisional Legislative Council would further amend this power. We certainly agree that there should be an appropriately balanced relationship between the executive and the legislature. If Members' power to move amendments to government policies is not restricted (including not to use the charging effect as a restriction means), then some undesirable arrangements might be resulted (for instance, Members might propose certain motion or amendments which would cause the Government to increase its expenditure, such as some cash granting schemes or policies that would increase public expenditure). In that case, even the Chief Executive would be deprived of his authority to make the final decision. This is certainly very improper. In these circumstances, the ADPL opines that the existing practice, which is to use the charging effect as a means of restriction, is a well-balanced arrangement. But we cannot agree to any additional restriction. This is the first point which I would like to add. As to the second point, it is related to the question of legislation before and after 1 July 1997, or Rule 65 of our draft Rules of Procedure. This rule concerns those bills which have been passed. It is the ADPL's hope that this rule, though set out in the Rules of Procedure, would never be invoked because we believe that it should be better if the three readings proceeding would not be formally carried out, lest the two following undesirable effects might be resulted. Firstly, it would give the community a bad impression that two legislatures are operating simultaneously. Secondly, it would give rise to some frivolous political disputes or new political controversies or legal proceedings. According to what I have heard, certain organizations have been claiming that if the First, Second and Third Reading procedures were to be carried out formally before 1 July 1997, they are prepared to take legal actions as far as to pursue the matter in the courts of Hong Kong. In order to avoid such actions, the ADPL would like to propose a practicable and feasible plan. If any bills that have been presented and dealt with in the Provisional Legislative Council before 1 July were to be passed in future, a select committee should be established and render the relevant bill into a white paper. Consultation, discussion as well as amendment work could then be carried out before the bill is presented to the Provisional Legislative Council for voting and passage by way of a resolution. The bill would then be put through its three readings once and for all upon 1 July 1997, but there should not be any debate on the bill. In this way, the worry of two legislatures operating simultaneously would be dispelled completely on one hand, and the necessary examination and law making process of bills indispensable to the smooth transition before 1 July 1997 could be carried out on the other. It is a pity that this plan was not accepted by the executive. A Blue Bill, which is the Holidays (1997 and 1998) Bill, is expected to be read the First and Second time today. With regard to this item of business, we would like to put on record that the ADPL has expressed regrets over this matter. The third point which I would like to add is that the hard work and devoted effort of the Working Group are highly appreciated. It is true that the Rules of Procedure still have a lot of room for improvement, but the Working Group has already discussed all the areas which are considered controversial and has marked more than 20 disputable items for further discussions. I am sure that the Working Group would conduct other thorough discussions in the future. Here, I would like to call upon Members to pass the Rules of Procedure today, so that we could have some rules to adhere to and to have a set of precise and objective Rules of Procedure. Although I have made certain points of supplement just now, I am in support of the motion. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina Chow.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, although I am the mover of this motion, this is the first time that I could speak on the motion. As the convener of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (Working Group), I would like to reinterate, with your consent, Madam President, the major principles that the Working Group has adhered to when drafting the Rules of Procedure. I hope this could give Members a better understanding of the concept and rationale behind my motion and the admendment proposed by the Honourable Ms Maria TAM.

To begin with, it is the Working Group's objective that a proper set of applicable Rules of Procedure should be prepared for the Council as soon as possible. During the discussion process, we have given consideration to the production of a set of Rules of Procedure applicable to the Legislative Council. We have also discussed the needs of preparing two different versions of rules to accommodate the difference in the Council's mode of operation before and after 1 July 1997. Finally, the Working Group came to an agreement and decided that the best resolution should be to prepare a set of Rules of Procedure specifically for the Provisional Legislative Council which is equally applicable both before and after 1 July 1997. We believe that by so doing, the Provisional Legislative Council could commence its various kinds of work at the earliest instance and could enjoy a certain degree of flexibility. As a result, even when new tasks arise, we could have a ready set of Rules of Procedure for application.

Secondly, during the drafting process, the Working Group has made reference to the provisions of the Basic Law that are related to the legislature, as well as taken into consideration the two decisions that the Preparatory Committee made with regards to the terms of reference of the Provisional Legislative Council. The purpose is to ensure that the Rules of Procedure would not contravene the Basic Law or the decisions of the Preparatory Committee.

Thirdly, the Working Group believes that we should adopt a set of legislative procedures that is generally recognized and accepted by the people of Hong Kong. As the Standing Orders of the existing Legislative Council are tried and proven, we think that with the exception of certain clauses that need to be adapted with reference to the Basic Law, the rest could generally be adopted. As such, during the drafting of the Rules of Procedure, we have tried our best to follow the Standing Orders of the existing Legislative Council. In addition, we have also drawn reference from the legislative procedures of some other common law jurisdictions, with a view to coming up with a set of Rules of Procedure that is both suitable to the SAR, and acceptable and comprehensible to the people of Hong Kong.

With the above major principles as our guidelines, the Working Group has used only a month's time to complete a draft set of Rules of Procedure that we consider could enable the Provisional Legislative Council to start on its work. Certainly, there is still a lot of room for improvement, such as issues concerning policies or drafting procedures. In view of the priorities, the Working Group agreed that areas which need to be revised or must be revised at this stage should be amended first; as for the rest, we would put down special marks to indicate areas that need to be further studied. In addition, the Working Group would prepare a list of items that we need to study further in future before presenting them to the Council for amendment. The Working Group also welcome Members' advice to help improve the clauses of the Rules of Procedure.

The Honourable Ms Maria TAM has reported just now that after the debate on this motion was adjourned on 22 March 1997, the Working Group has conducted another meeting. At that meeting, we have given full consideration to the written opinions submitted by Members as well as the valuable advices that colleagues had discussed with us in person. All these advices and opinions have been discussed and accommodated by the Working Group as far as possible, and are now grouped under the amendment to be moved by Ms Maria TAM. As such, I hope that Members would give full support to Ms Maria TAM's amendments. I would like to take this opportunity to respond to the question raised by the Honourable LAU Kong-wah just now in relation to Rule 79A. This is in fact the group of amendments to be moved by Ms Maria TAM with regard to the attendance of witness. The rule provides that the Chief Executive may decide, in the light of security and vital public interests, whether government officials or other personnel in charge of government affairs should testify or give evidence before the Provisional Legislative Council or its committees. In fact, almost every word and phrase used in this clause is set out in Article 48(11) of the Basic Law. There is essentially no difference between the meanings of the former and the latter. However, there might be a slight difference as to the sequence of the word for the purpose of adaptation into the Rules of Procedure. As to the question, which Mr LAU Kong-wah asked just now, of why we did not have this entered into the first draft but having to add it at this stage, the Working Group did in fact consider two points. We have discussed this issue time and again as to whether this clause should be entered in the Rules of Procedure. One may opine that it is necessary to do so. However, is it necessarily so? Not really, because the Basic Law has already confirmed that the Chief Executive has such an authority. In view of the fact that the Basic Law has already authorized the Chief Executive to exercise his power in this respect, the Working Group has discussed whether it would be necessary for us to write this down in the Rules of Procedure, and we agreed that it would not be necessary. This is one consideration. Another consideration is that we have deleted the citations of the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance. The Working Group is of the opinion that the power to summon any parties is exercised in accordance with the Basic Law, and bearing in mind the mode of operation of the the existing Legislative Council, we considered that as we have already deleted the citations of that Ordinance and substituted the source of authorization, it may perhaps be much clearer to Members if we would include the executive power into the Rules of Procedure. It is especially so when we put them together, so that Members could see very clearly what powers does this Council have and what powers does the Chief Executive or the Government have. I hope what I have just said could clearly answer the questions raised by Mr LAU Kong-wah just now. Finally, I would like to call upon Members to support Ms Maria TAM's amendments which I am also in support. As this Council has already passed the motion moved by the Honourable Mr IP Kwok-him just now, I hope that Members will also lend their support to the amendments to be moved by both Members. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If no other Member wishes to speak, I now call upon Ms Maria TAM to move her amendment.

MS MARIA TAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mrs Selina CHOW's motion be amended as set out on the Revised Agenda. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As the amendment moved by Ms Maria TAM comprises 11 groups of amendments to the Rules of Procedures, I will put the question in 11 groups respectively so that Members may vote on each group of amendments seperately.

I now put the question to you and that is: That the Schedule to the motion on Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region moved by the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW at the meeting of the Provisional Legislative Council on 22 March 1997 be amended as follows ─

(1) by deleting "於一九九七年三月二十二日訂立" and substituting "於一九九七年四月十二日訂立".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is : That the following amendments be approved ─

(2) (a) in Rule 10(2) and (3), by deleting "第12(1)條(香港特別行政區成立後的首次會議的程序)、";

(b) in Rule 12 ─

(i) by deleting subrule (1);

(ii) by re-numbering subrule (2) as subrule (1);

(iii) in subrule(1), by deleting "第(6)款" and substituting "第(5)款";

(iv) by re-numbering subrules (3) and (4) as subrules (2) and (3) respectively;

(v) in subrule(3), by deleting "第(3)款" and substituting "第(2)款";

(vi) by re-numbering subrule (5) as subrule (4);

(vii) in subrule(4), by deleting "第(4)款" and substituting "第(3)款";

(viii) by re-numbering subrule (6) as subrule (5).

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendments are carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendment be approved ─

(3) in Rule 19(1), by adding "由臨時立法會主席決定，並" after "臨時立法會議程".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is : That the following amendments be approved ─

(4) (a) in Rule 31(c), by deleting "示明他並不反對" and substituting"同意";

(b) in Rule 57(6)(c), by deleting "示明他並不反對" and substituting "同意".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendments are carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is : That the following amendments be approved ─

(5) in Rule 50(5), by deleting "法律所訂明的".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendment be approved ─

(6) in Rule 51 －

(a) in subrule (4), by deleting "政務司長簽署的證明書，說明將於二讀時示明";

(b) in subrule (5), by deleting "由政務司長簽署的".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendments be approved ─

(7) (a) by deleting Rules 75(17), 76(11), 77(15) and 79(11);

(b) by re-numbering Rules 75(18), 76(12) and 77(16) as Rules 75(17), 76(11) and 77(15) respectively;

"79A. 證人的出席

(a) 常設委員會在行使職權時，如有需要，可傳召有關人士出席作證和提供證據；

(b) 內務委員會、法案委員會、事務委員會或專責委員會可獲臨時立法會授權，使其在行使職權時，如有需要，可傳召有關人士出席作證和提供證據，

但行政長官可根據安全和重大公眾利益的考慮，決定政府官員或其他負責政府公務的人員是否向臨時立法會或其屬下的委員會作證和提供證據。".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendments are carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendments be approved ─

(8) (a) in Rule 18 －

(i) by deleting subrule (1)(k);

(ii) by re-numbering subrule (1)(1) as subrule (1)(k);

(b) by deleting Rules 88 and 89.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendments are carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendments be approved ─

(9) in Rule 82(5)(f), by adding "因其議員身分" after "配偶".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendment be approved ─

(10) by deleting Rule 92(c) and substituting ─

"(c) “政府”指香港特別行政區政府，但在香港特別行政區政府成立前，凡提述“政府”，即為提述“香港特別行政區行政長官”，而凡提述“官員”，即為提述“中華人民共和國香港特別行政區行政長官辦公室人員”；及".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the following amendments be approved ─

(11) (a) by re-numbering Rules 79A, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 90, 91 and 92 as 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 and 91 respectively;

(b) in Rule 85, by deleting "82" and "83" and substituting "83" and "84" respectively.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendments are carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him, as Ms Maria TAM's amendment to Mrs Selina CHOW's motion has been agreed to, the wording of your amendment is now inconsistent with the amended motion. Will you seek leave to alter the wording of your proposed amendment?

IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, as the approved amendment moved by the Honourable Ms Maria TAM has re-numbered the original Rule 82 as Rule 83, with your permission, I would like to alter the wording of my amendment so that "Rule 82(5)(f)" would become "Rule 83(5)(f)". Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have my leave to alter the wording of your amendment. I now invite you to move your amendment to Mrs Selina CHOW's motion. Mr IP Kwok-him.

IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Rule 83(5)(f) (registration of interests) in the Schedule to the motion on Adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region moved by Mrs Selina CHOW at the meeting of the Provisional Legislative Council on 22 March 1997 be amended by deleting "從外國政府、組織或人士所收受或代表外國政府、組織或人士所收受的款項、實惠或實利" and substituting ─

“從 ─

(i) 香港以外的政府或組織；或

(ii) 非香港永久性居民之人士

所收受或代表上述政府、組織或人士所收受的款項、實惠或實利；”.

This is a corresponding amendment moved with reference to paragraph (5)(f) of the Resolution on Registration of Members' Interests.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I now declare that the amendment moved by Mr IP Kwok-him to Mrs Selina CHOW's motion is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW, do you wish to make your final reply?

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Yes, thank you, Madam President. I would like to make a report before Members vote on my motion as amended by the amendments moved by the Honourable Ms Maria TAM and the Honourable IP Kwok-him respectively. I have informed Members just now that the Working Group has made a lot of markings on the draft Rules of Procedure, but I still would like to report further on some of the more important markings that we had made, so that Members will know that the Working Group would further conduct more in-depth dicussions on those aspects.

The first marking is related to the review on the relationship between the Provisional Legislative Council and its committes, the relationship among the committees themselves, as well as on the rules and regulations of each committee. The items which need to be reviewed include:

(a) the quorum for the Finance Committee;

(b) the composition of the Public Accounts Committee;

(d) the terms of reference as well as quorum for the House Committee;

(e) the relationship among the Provisional Legislative Council, the House Committee, as well as the Panels; and

(f) whether the number of members for each Select Committee be recommended by the House Committee, whether a Deputy Chairman be added to the committee, and so on.

For a legislature to function effectively and efficiently, a proper mode of operation is in fact very important. The inter-relationship, accountability, as well as operational flexibility of its various committees would also bear important impact on the functioning of the legislature as a whole. The Working Group is of the opinion that one of its major tasks in the coming two to three months would be to review the committee system of the Council, and it is our hope that the review could be completed quickly before 1 July. However, it does not imply that the committees concerned cannot start working if the need arises. In fact, these committees do need to start on their work and they could operate in accordance with the existing rules and regulations. The Working Group would conduct in-depth discussions and consult Members before recommending any amendment.

The second marking is related to Rule 65, which is the Confirmation of Bills. At the Council meeting on 22 March, I reported that the Working Group had agreed that a mechanism should be built into the Rules of Procedure to comply with the decision of the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) in relation to the presentation of bills to the Provisional Legislative Council before 1 July 1997. As such, a mechanism has been incorporated into the Rules of Procedure for the scrutiny and passing of bills as well as the confirmation of bills that have passed through the three readings vide a motion on 1 July 1997. Members of the Working Group understand that the purpose of "confirmation" is not to allow Members to re-consider but to confirm the bills which have already been fully discussed, debated on, as well as passed. The most precise and efficient way to achieve this objective is by means of "a motion which can be moved without notice and put to the vote without amendment or debate". The mechanism has been set out under Rule 65 of the Rules of Procedure.

On the other hand, members of the Working Group also understand that the initiative to present bills for confirmation rests with the Chief Executive. Since the Chief Executive has not yet made a final decision as regards the method by which the Provisional Legislative Council could confirm the passed bills on 1 July 1997, the mechanism set out in Rule 65 might need to be re-adjusted. However, in the absence of any specific recommendations in this respect, the Working Group thinks that to confirm the passed bills by way of a "motion" has its merits. We therefore decided to build this mechanism into the Rules of Procedure. Should there be a need for amendment, the Working Group would conduct discussion with regard to Rule 65 and take such a need into consideration.

The third marking is related to the following matter: after adaptive amendments have been made to the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance (Cap. 382), the Working Group would review if there is any need to re-incorporate into the Rules of Procedure the repealed Rule 88 (regarding the procedure for a Member to be permitted to attend legal proceedings of civil cases as a witness) and Rule 89 (regarding the procedure to provide the Provisional Legislative Council meeting with evidences).

The Working Group has also made a series of markings in relation to matters such as the requests for and procedures concerning the presentation of petitions; subrule 9(1) which regards the Chief Executive's right to designate public officers to attend meetings of the Council's committees and subcommittees; review on the appropriateness of the notice period as set out in subrules 40(6) and 40(7) respectively regarding the adjournment of debates and adjournment of the committee of the whole council; review on the need to redefine the terms "professional" and "award"as set out under Rule 82; review on the applicability of the sanctions stated in the revised Rule 85 to other Rules; and the need to improve on the draft Chinese version of the Rules of Procedure so as to make the meaning of all the Rules more precise and easily comprehensible. All of these matters have been entered into our list of makings.

The Secretariat is now preparing this list and will provide each Member with one copy of such as soon as possible.

The Working Group would need to complete its examination of the English version of the Rules of Procedure shortly. We have in fact started working on it already and would present the draft to the Council for consideration, debate and approval. Madam President, with your consent, I would like to speak a little more. Just now the Honourable LAU Kong-wah has raised several questions which he would like Ms Maria TAM to answer, but Ms Maria TAM could not speak again on her amendment. I do not intend to respond point by point here, but I wish he could accept a written reply answering each of his questions. As far as I could remember, we have already discussed all the points that he raised and have made decisions thereupon.

I wish Members could understand that the Rules of Procedure are not set in concrete once they are made and approved. They could be flexibly amended in accordance with the actual operational needs of the Council and advices offered by Members. This set of Rules, at the present stage, only serves as a set of parliamentary procedures to which we adhere for orderly and efficient operation. Members are very much welcomed to keep providing the Working Group with their advices so as to make this set of Rules of Procedure more complete.

I hope Members could support my motion on the adoption of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong SAR as amended by the amendments moved by Ms Maria TAM and Mr IP Kwok-him. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESEIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That Mrs Selina CHOW's motion on the Rules of Procedure of this Council as amended by Ms Maria TAM and Mr IP Kwok-him be approved.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that Mrs Selina CHOW's motion, as amended by Ms Maria TAM and Mr IP Kwok-him, is carried.

Members, I now suggest the Council take a short break and resume after 10 minutes.

(A 10-minute break)

BILL

First Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill.

The third Item: Bill of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. First Reading of Bill.

HOLIDAYS (1997 AND 1998) BILL

CLERK (in Cantonese): HOLIDAYS (1997 AND 1998) BILL

Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second Reading of Bill.

Secretary for Justice.

HOLIDAYS (1997 AND 1998) BILL

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): I move that the Holidays (1997 and 1998) Bill be read the Second time.

The proposals of the Bill are drafted with reference to the relevant decisions and recommendations made by the National People's Congress as well as the Preparatory Committee for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. The purpose of the Bill is to make arrangements concerning the holidays in the first 18 months after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR), and should therefore be regarded as an interim measure. Under the existing Laws of Hong Kong, any matters relating to holidays are governed and dealt with separately by two ordinances. The Bill provides for additional statutory holidays in 1997 under the Employment Ordinance. These additional statutory holidays would enable employees to enjoy three extra days of paid statutory holidays during 1997. These three additional statutory holidays fall on 1 July, 2 July and 1 October respectively. It is hoped that the people of Hong Kong would be encouraged to participate in the various activities organized to celebrate the reunification of Hong Kong with China and to celebrate the first National Day of the SAR. As for the paid statutory holidays in 1998, a final decision has yet to be made, pending the SAR Government's consultation with the Labour Advisory Board. The Bill also contains a new clause which provides for general holidays for the purpose of the Holidays Ordinance. Days with special meaning to Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China are set out under this clause as holidays while some holidays which carry the traditional colonial hue are repealed. Practically speaking, this Bill provides three more days of general holidays for 1997. While 1 July, 2 July, 1 October, 2 October as well as the Sino-Japanese War Victory Day in August are the additional holidays, the original two days of general holidays in August will be cancelled. As regards the holidays for 1998, apart from Sundays, the total number of days remains at 17, a figure which is essentially the same as that in 1996. Madam President, I beg to move.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the HOLIDAYS (1997 AND 1998) BILL be read the Second time. In accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debate is now adjourned and the Bill referred to the House Committee.

(Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure.)

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, may I withdraw from the Council now?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes, you may withdraw from the Council at any time you find appropriate. In addition, staff members from the Chief Executive's Office may withdraw from the Council as well. Thank you for your attendance.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President.

MOTION

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will proceed to the next item on the Agenda. Motion: Operation of the Finance Committee, House Committee and Committee on Members' Interests. Mrs Selina CHOW.

OPERATION OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, HOUSE COMMITTEE AND COMMITTEE ON MEMBERS' INTERESTS

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that the motion standing in my name on the Revised Agenda be approved.

In order to enable the Provisional Legislative Council to commence its work as soon as possible, I move that the election of the chairman and deputy chairman of the Finance Committee and of the House Committee provided for under Rules 72(2) and 75(2) respectively of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council be held not later than 26 April 1997, and that the election of the chairman and members of the Committee on Members' Interests be held as soon as practicable in accordance with the election procedure to be formulated by the House Committee under Rule 74(2) of the Rules of Procedure following the election of the House Committee chairman and deputy chairman.

I hope that Honourable colleagues will support my motion.

If my motion is carried, I hope that Honourable colleagues will consider conducting a Finance Committee meeting and a House Committee meeting today to elect their respective chairmen and deputy chairmen after this meeting of the whole Council. The Secretariat issued a notice on 8 April informing Members that arrangements for these meetings could be made. In addition, a set of election procedures drafted with reference to the practice of other legislatures has also been issued to Members for their reference.

I made this proposal based on the following three reasons:

(1) The Holidays (1997 and 1998) Bill has been presented to the Council and referred to the House Committee pursuant to Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure. There is an actual need for this Council to set up its House Committee as soon as possible in order to process the Bill;

(2) At present, the Chief Executive's Office is inviting members of the public to comment on the proposed amendments to the Societies Ordinance and the Public Order Ordinance through the Civil Liberties and Social Order Consultation Document. Written submissions must reach the Chief Executive's Office before 30 April 1997. I understand that some Members intend to propose, and I have also read in the papers that you, Madam President, has mentioned that it would be quite proper for this Council to discuss this consultation document in small groups and then come up with a submission for the Chief Executive's Office's reference. If Members agree to this proposal or find it necessary to discuss the ways in which this consultation document should be studied, the House Committee will need to start working immediately.

(3) This Council needs to set up the Finance Committee as soon as possible in order to prepare for the consideration of the budget which the Chief Executive might present to the Council at any time.

If we put off the election dates, it would seriously affect our preparations for the above-mentioned work and hold up other matters that urgently require our arrangement and discussion.

I hope that Honourable colleagues will consider my proposal and I urge Members to support my motion. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, just now Mrs Selina CHOW mentioned in her speech that I had publicly spoken on this issue. I would like to make clear to Members what I had said in public. I did not say that Members had to do such a thing or set up a committee to discuss this consultation document and present their views to the Chief Executive. What I said was if Members thought it necessary to do so, they could proceed with it. As such, the decision lies with Members and I have no say whatsoever. It was while I had to answer a question from the press about what Members of this Council could do in this respect that I mentioned this possibility. I repeat, however, that the decision lies with Members.

I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion on the Operation of the Finance Committee, House Committee and Committee on Members' Interests moved by Mrs Selina CHOW as set out on the Revised Agenda be approved. We will now proceed to a debate. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr NGAI Shiu-kit.

MR NGAI SHIU-KIT (in Cantonese): Madam President, I fully support what the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW has said just now. I very much agree with her that a lot of things need to be done and dealt with immediately. However, among the points that Mrs Selina CHOW has raised, there is one which I would like to modify. Although I agree with what she said, I do have some reservations about her suggestion that we should elect the chairman of the House Committee and those of other committees after this meeting today. I think it would be too rushed to do so. I understand that notice was given a few days earlier, but we do need time to make the necessary preparation work while Members who wish to run for chairmanship would also need time to do some lobbying work. Even if there is only one candidate, he must be given a chance to explain to us why we should elect him and in what way he is eligible for the job, so that we could get to know him better. I do not think there is any need to elect the chairman of the House Committee and those of other committees today in a rush. Our minds are fully occupied by the businesses that have been disposed of at this meeting. We would need some time to consider and study the matter carefully. This should be in our Members' interest. I do not know if any Member present agrees with my proposal. But my intuition tells me that it is too rushed and not a very good idea to hold the elections today. Although I would like to see the various committees start operating, I do have reservations about electing the chairman of the House Committee and those of other committees after the meeting today. I wonder if fellow Members would share my view. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Mr Paul CHENG.

MR PAUL CHENG (in Cantonese): I would like to seek a clarification. The question we are debating is the setting up of these three committees, and not whether elections should be held. It seems to me that there is some confusion. Madam President, would you please clarify?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): It is stated in the Rules of Procedure that a Member may not speak more than once nor make a speech lasting more than 15 minutes. Mr CHENG, there is in fact no need for the President to clarify because the wording of the motion is clear enough. However, Members are permitted to express their personal opinion when they speak, so long as they are speaking on the motion or on the content of the motion mover's speech. Any Member may speak in such manner. Does any other Member wish to speak? Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I speak in support of this motion which proposes that the three committees should be set up not later than 26 April 1997. In addition, I also hope that the House Committee could hold its meeting today due to the following reasons. Firstly, it is consistent with the letter of this motion. Secondly, we have been given sufficient notice as PLC Paper No. 106 has informed us that it would be most desirable if the first meeting of the House Committee, the purpose of which is to elect the chairman, could be held today. Thirdly, there are merits in setting up the House Committee as soon as possible. First and foremost, the Provisional Legislative Council meetings would not be turned into House Committee meetings. We would discuss matters of the Council in the House Committee as far as possible, so that we could deal with other matters in Council meetings. Fourthly, a Blue Bill presented by the Administration has been read the First time today. If we could have a preliminary discussion in the House Committee about how we should proceed with the Bill, we would know what would be in store for us in the coming days. Lastly, since we have already known each other for some time, Members actually have a clear idea of who is suitable to become the respective chairman of these committees ─ at least I know I am not the right candidate for any one of them. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TSANG Yok-sing.

MR TSANG YOK-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to seek elucidation on two points. Firstly, after moving her motion, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW proposed that the two meetings be held today. If Mrs CHOW's motion is carried, does it mean that we have all agreed to hold those meetings today? Secondly, bearing in mind that the procedures for holding House Committee meetings are set out in the Rules of Procedure we have just adopted, and that we have already received a notice issued by the Secretariat a few days earlier, if the motion moved by Mrs Selina CHOW is carried, does it mean that it is consistent with the rules set out in the Rules of Procedure? I hope to seek elucidation on these two points. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I support the motion moved by the Honourable Selina CHOW, as well as the arguments she put forward. With the first bill having been submitted to the Council, the House Committee will have to start working very soon. Unless the House Committee has been established, it would not be possible for a bill to be scrutinized or be passed. I would like to supplement one point here and that is: we have the same problem with the Finance Committee. The 1997-98 Budget will be voted on in the Legislative Council next week. When the Provisional Legislative Council was first set up, there were many arguments. Some Members thought that the Provisional Legislative Council should also scrutinize the 1997-98 Budget, while other Members said that if a consensus is reached over the budget after Sino-British talks and if it is passed by the Legislative Council without amendment, we might not need to scrutinize it. I can recall that when the Chief Executive met with Members of the Provisional Legislative Council, I proposed to him that the Provisional Legislative Council should also scrutinize the Budget. The Chief Executive also thought that the Provisional Legislative Council has the right to scrutinize or discuss the 1997-98 Budget. However, if we put off formulating the procedures or the meetings of the Finance Committee, we are in effect tying our own hands. Some people are already saying that they might vote against the Budget or abstain from voting next week. Under such circumstances, should we not discuss it as soon as possible? If we have to do this, we might have to follow the procedures of the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council and hold meetings on three consecutive days in a week to discuss the Budget and invite government officials to explain it item by item. However, it would be impossible to do so if the Finance Committee has not even started operating. Thus there is all the more reason for us to begin our work as soon as possible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I support the motion moved by the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW. I hope that the House Committee, the Finance Committee and the Committee on Members' Interests can be set up as soon as possible while the right persona for the responsible posts, including the chairman or deputy chairman, can be elected as soon as possible. The reason is that many matters urgently need to be dealt with and many tasks need to be carried out in an orderly fashion. These matters brook no delay. Since the original motion does not mention today as the date of meeting, the Honourable NGAI Shiu-kit cannot propose to amend the date in the original motion. However, PLC Paper No. 106/96-97 issued by the Secretariat, or the PLC paper issued on 8 April, has already given us notice that there would be meetings this afternoon. If Mrs Selina CHOW's original motion is carried today, the chairmen of the committees would be elected in meetings to be held today. In my opinion, the approval of Mrs Selina CHOW's motion would imply that the Secretariat has officially given us notice of the time of the meetings. As to whether these meetings can be held, I think theoretically they should be held if Mrs Selina CHOW's motion is carried. Unless a quorum is not present, these meetings should be official meetings. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Clerk has just informed me that the notice which she has given states that, "If Members wish to hold a House Committee meeting today, she can make the arrangement." As such, the Secretariat could not be regarded as having given Members a notice of meeting. As to when should the House Committee meeting be held, I do not want to discuss that in the Council meeting. I think this matter should be decided by Members themselves. Would Members please come back to the subject of the debate, that is, whether these three Committees should be established and whether they should be established before 26 April? Prof NG Ching-fai.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. You have stated the matter very clearly just now because the wording of the motion is exactly what you have just said. We only have to decide whether we should set up the Committees before 26 April. I have no more questions. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese) : Mr Allen LEE.

MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I speak in support of the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW's motion which proposes that the election should be held not later than 26 April. Just now Mrs Selina CHOW has also said that she hoped Members would agree to holding the election today. I have not had the opportunity to discuss this issue with the Honourable NGAI Shiu-kit because he went to Beijing on Tuesday to handle other business. Bearing in mind that we have to commence our work as soon as possible after the establishment of the Provisional Legislative Council, and that the election of the chairman of the House Committee, the Finance Committee and so on is one of the jobs of Members, I can see no reason why we have to postpone the election today and ask all Members to come here again before the 26 April Council meeting merely for the election of chairman. We are all here today, and the Secretariat has already given notice to Members as early as on 8 April. Certainly, whether we will hold the election today is purely up to Members' decision, but Members should be prepared for that before they come here today for we are not totally unprepared for or not being informed of those meetings. In my opinion, the most important thing is that the Provisional Legislative Council has to start working. As to the questions of principle raised by other Members just now, they should not be difficult to resolve. Since the Secretary for Justice has already presented the holidays bill issue to this Council, work pertaining to this bill should be carried out as soon as possible. As such, the sooner the Committees are established the better, so that the necessary work could be commenced soon. Besides, other Members have also spoken on the Finance Committee just now. Unless very strong reasons to the contrary are presented, I hope Members could support the proposal to hold the election of the chairman and deputy chairman of the Committees today.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? If not, Mrs Selina CHOW, do you wish to reply? Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I would like to take this opportunity to respond to a few Members who have just spoken. They are very much concerned about the timing of the various meetings. Although this matter is not a part of the motion, it is very closely related. Firstly, I would like to answer the question by the Honourable NGAI Shiu-kit. He thinks that time is required for lobbying and preparation. In fact, both the Working Group and the Council understand the urgent need for a House Committee, a need which did not spring out of nowhere but has been with us since end of February and the beginning of March. Many colleagues have also reflected to the Working Group that there is an urgent need to set up a House Committee to handle related matters. As such, we can see that Members all realize that a House Committee should be formed, and some of us have already started considering taking up some posts concerned. The House Committee does not involve the question of membership because it comprises all Members. The question is who will run for the chairman and deputy chairman. In fact, more than a month has passed since the end of February. Anyone who is interested in taking up the posts should have enough time for consideration. No one would wait until this motion has been passed to make up his mind. As such, neither the lobbying work nor the preparation work would be something unknown to Members beforehand. Moreover, two Members, the Honourable TSANG Yok-sing and the Honourable Paul CHENG, have asked for clarification. In fact, the President and Prof NG Ching-fai have already explained the matters very clearly. Regarding the proceedings, the letter of my motion is of course very clear, and we have to look at this motion from a practical point of view. In my speech just now, I pointed out that it is very important for us to set up a mechanism so that we can implement our work immediately. Without this mechanism, I cannot proceed with the work which we have certainly identified, nor any work we have not yet identified but which might crop up in the meantime. Let us look at the actual situation. If we do not convene the two meetings this afternoon, and since our next Council meeting will be held on 26 April, we can neither hold discussions in relation to those two meetings nor do anything else in these two weeks. Can we hold a special meeting for that purpose? Fine, we can do that, but the special meeting will have to be held on the 19th or 20th next week because we have to resolve this issue before the 26th. We hope our work could proceed apace, and we have to consider this issue from the perspective of working needs and these working needs are very pressing indeedd. I hope all of you can understand that it is a pressing issue and we need to try our best to save time. Since we are all here today, I think we can reach a decision which takes into consideration the needs of the Council. Turning back to the question just now, if my motion is passed but no meeting is held today, then we will have to discuss again and request the Secretariat to issue a notice of meeting again and the whole process will become very lengthy. The Honourable TSANG Yok-sing just asked me whether this proposal is in order. I can tell Mr TSANG that the Rules of Procedure are silent on this point. It is because when we first started our discussion, we were already studying the operation of the Committee if there are Chairman and members after its establishment. However, this Committee has yet to be established. With reference to the past practice of the Legislative Council, the first meeting date of the Committee usually does not follow the notice like other meetings since the Committee is not yet established and there is no chairman either. I would like to make a clarification that, under such circumstances, the restriction on giving notice of meeting as stated in the Rules of Procedures is totally inapplicable to this case. I sincerely hope that Members can think about our needs, especially our working needs. If we do not have these Committees, we will have difficulties carrying out our work. I therefore hope that Members could lend me their support. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Under normal circumstances, if the mover of the motion has already replied, I will not allow other Members to speak. However, Miss CHAN Yuen-han has now a point of order, so I will ask her to raise her point. Miss CHAN.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Since we have just listened to the views of the mover of the original motion, may I, with your consent, suggest we take a three-minute break so that we could have time to discuss among ourselves. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have my consent. The Council will now take a break and resume after three minutes.

(A 15-minute Break)

(Council resumed)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as proposed just now. For Members' information, I will repeat the question again, so that Members can have a clear picture of what they are voting on. This motion is proposed by the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW and its reads, "That the election of the chairman and deputy chairman of the Finance Committee and of the House Committee provided for under Rules 72(2) and 75(2) respectively of the Rules of Procedure be held not later than 26 April 1997 and that the election of the chairman and members of the Committee on Members' Interests be held as soon as practicable in accordance with the election procedures which should be formulated by the House Committee under Rule 74(2) of the Rules of Procedure following the election of its chairman and deputy chairman." I would like to state clearly once again that the date for holding the House Committee and Finance Committee meetings is not stated in this motion. It only states that the election of the chairmen and deputy chairmen of these two Committees has to be held before and not later than 26 April 1997. I now put the question to you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare the motion is carried.

NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 9:30 am on Saturday, 26 April 1997.

Adjourned accordingly at 12 noon.

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Saturday, 12 April 1997 The Council met at half-past Nine o'clock

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Saturday, 12 April 1997
The Council met at half-past Nine o'clock