OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 27 August 1997
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, G.B.M.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE ELSIE LEUNG OI-SIE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING

MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY

MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

MR PATRICK LAU LAI-CHIU, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS

MS MARIA KWAN SIK-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL

MR LAW KAM-SANG, J.P., DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

　 The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subject

　

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
Tax Reserve Certificates (Rate of Interest) (No. 2) Notice 1997	417/97
Toys and Children's Products Safety Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule) Notice 1997	418/97

Sessional Papers

　

　

ADDRESS 　 PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council will start the sitting with an address. Mr Ronald ARCULLI will address the Council on the Report of the Bills Committee on the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill. Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam President, as Chairman of the Bills Committee on the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill, I wish to report on the main deliberations of the Bills Committee.

The Bill was introduced into this Council on 23 July 1997. It seeks to provide for the establishment of the Electoral Affairs Commission (the Commission) as a body corporate. The Commission will be responsible for:

　

1. reviewing and making recommendations on geographical constituency boundaries for the three-tier elections;

   　

2. the conduct and supervision of these elections;

   　

3. supervising the registration of electors;

   　

4. regulating the procedure and making practical arrangements for the elections; and

   　

5. making practical arrangements relating to the formation of an 800-member election committee for electing 10 members of the first Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Legislative Council.

　

Deliberations of the Bills Committee

　 The Bills Committee has noted that:

　

1. the provisions of the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill are mostly modelled on the former Boundary and Election Commission (BEC) Ordinance; and

   　

2. the Commission will be required to submit recommendations on the delineation of geographical constituencies for the first Legislative Council election to the Chief Executive before 31 October 1997.

　

I will now summarize the major deliberations.

Membership of the Commission

Under clause 3(2) and (3), the Commission shall consist of three members to be appointed by the Chief Executive, including a chairman who is a Judge of the High Court to be appointed in consultation with the Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal.

　

The Bills Committee notes that the respective provision relating to membership of the former BEC Ordinance and the Bill is the same except that the former Ordinance required the President of Legislative Council to nominate one member. The Administration has explained that the old arrangement was acceptable in the past because the then President of Legislative Council was an appointed Member. However, as all Legislative Council Members including the President will be returned by elections and since one of the functions of the Commission is to supervise these elections, this arrangement should not continue in order not to give rise to doubts on the independence of the Commission.

　

Disqualifying criteria

Both the Bill and the former BEC Ordinance have set out a number of similar disqualifying criteria for appointment to the Commission.

Under the former BEC Ordinance, a person who was an incumbent, or who had been, within the past four years immediately before the date of appointment, a member of the Executive Council would not be eligible for appointment to the BEC. While the Bill retains the restriction on incumbent members of the Executive Council, a person will no longer be disqualified from appointment to the Commission merely because he has been a member of the former Executive Council within the past four years immediately before the date of appointment. The Administration explains that the change is necessary in order not to restrict unnecessarily the pool of candidates for appointment to the Commission as all members of the Executive Council are appointed. The impartiality of the Commission will not be affected even if it consists of a member who is a former Executive Council Member. Despite the Administration's explanation, the Bills Committee has reservations about the change and I will on behalf of the Bills Committee move a Committee stage amendment (CSA) to disqualify a person who has been a member of the former Executive Council or the Executive Council within the past four years from appointment to the Commission.

　 Under clause 3(5), a person is not eligible for appointment as a member of the Commission if he is or becomes or has been, within the four years immediately before the date of appointment, a member of the three-tier councils. The Bills Committee holds the view that the following categories of persons should also not be eligible for appointment:

　

1. a member of any congress, parliament, assembly or council, whether central or local, of any place outside Hong Kong;

   　

2. a member of the National Committee or a Local Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conferences;

   　

3. a candidate for the election of the Chief Executive; and

   　

4. a member of the Selection Committee or the Election Committee of the Chief Executive referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law.

　

The Administration explains that since the Commission will be responsible for conducting and supervising the three-tier elections, specific provisions are necessary to bar members of the three-tier councils from appointment to the Commission. Moreover, clause 3(5)(f)(vii) stipulates that a person who, in the opinion of the Chief Executive, has been actively engaged in politics, is not eligible for appointment. The Administration is of the view that the provisions in the Bill are adequate to ensure that the Commission will operate impartially.

　

The Bills Committee believes it is better to disqualify the categories of persons I have just mentioned from appointment as members of the Commission. Accordingly, I will move, on behalf of the Bills Committee, amendments at Committee stage.

　

Members of the Commission disqualified from nomination

　

Clause 13 disqualifies the members of the Commission from holding office as a member of certain specific public bodies or participating in elections (other than as electors) while holding office as a member of the Commission or within four years of ceasing to be a member of the Commission. The Bills Committee is of the view that a member of the Commission, during his term of office or within four years of ceasing to be a member of the Commission, should be disqualified from becoming a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive, a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law, or a member of the Executive Council. On behalf of the Bills Committee, I will move a CSA to such an effect.

Demarcation of geographical constituency boundaries in respect of Legislative Council election

　

The Bill provides that in making recommendations on geographical constituency boundaries in respect of Legislative Council election, the Commission shall ensure that the population per seat in each geographical constituency shall not differ from the population quota (that is, the average population per geographical seat) by more than 25%, and that the district board constituencies which existed before 1 July 1997 will be used as "building blocks" for delineating Legislative Council geographical constituencies.

　

The Bills Committee has reservations about adopting a margin as large as 25%. As the whole of Hong Kong will be divided into five geographical constituencies for the first Legislative Council election and each constituency shall return between three to five seats, a constituency exceeding the population quota by 25% will be significantly larger than one which is 25% below the population quota. The principle of equal representation should be taken into account in the demarcation of boundaries. The Administration has explained that the 25% margin rule which was used for the three-tier elections in 1995 will provide flexibility for the Commission in following the statutory criteria to delineate geographical constituency boundaries. The population deviation will be kept as small as possible and the Commission will be required to give an explanation for any departure from the 25% margin rule.

　

The Bills Committee, however, requested the Administration to review the 25% margin rule and to consider whether a lower margin of deviation such as 10% or 15% should be adopted. After reconsideration, the Administration agreed to reduce the margin rule to 15% and will move a CSA to that effect. The Bills Committee finds the arrangement acceptable.

　

Guidelines of the Commission

　

The Administration explains that the guidelines issued by the Commission under clause 6 are not legally binding. They only serve to assist candidates and election agents in understanding their statutory obligations as well as to provide administrative arrangements to ensure the conduct of elections in a fair and efficient manner. In response to the Bills Committee, the Administration agrees to move a CSA to clause 6(3) to allow the Commission to take such action (including the issuing of a reprimand or censure) it considers appropriate in respect of a complaint relating to a breach of guidelines as well as to give a reasonable opportunity for the person being complained against to make representations to the Commission.

　

Appointment of members of committees of the Commission

　

Under clause 7(g), the Commission may make regulations to provide for, inter alia, the establishment and appointment of committees. The Bills Committee feels that it is only reasonable that similar disqualifying criteria for appointment of members of the Commission stipulated in clause 3(5) should apply to the appointment of members of the committees.

　

The Administration agrees that while similar criteria should be imposed on members of committees of the Commission, it is necessary to exempt judicial officers from the restriction. This is because based on past experience, they may be required to serve on the committees to assist or provide advice to the committees. The Administration will move a CSA to that effect.

　

Public consultation

　

The Administration explains that the Commission will consult the public on the provisional recommendations on geographical constituency boundaries before submission to the Chief Executive. Because of the tight election schedule, a 14-day consultation period is proposed in respect of the recommendations for the first Legislative Council election. As for subsequent elections, a consultation period of 30 days is proposed. The final recommendations of the Commission on geographical constituency boundaries will be considered by the Chief Executive in Council and presented to the Provisional Legislative Council in the form of subsidiary legislation which is subject to the negative vetting procedure.

　

In view of the complexity of the electoral package, a member suggested that the 14-day public consultation period be extended. Taking into account the tight time frame, the Bills Committee proposes that a period of not less than 14 days should be provided for public consultation so that more time could be given if circumstances permit. The Administration agreed to move a CSA to clause 19 to that effect.

Madam President, the Bills Committee supports that the Second Reading debate on the Bill be resumed today, subject to the CSAs to be moved by the Administration and by me on behalf of the Bills Committee. Thank you.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The time for questions will be around 1 hour. I would like to draw Members' attention to two points. First, when asking a supplementary question, the Member concerned must keep his or her preamble as concise as possible, so as to save time for more Members to ask supplementary questions. In case I find a premable too long and too wordy, I will have to direct the Member concerned to stop immediately, and I will ask him or her to put forward the question right away. Second, in each supplementary, the Member concerned is allowed to ask one single question, so as to enable the responding Government official to focus on the question asked. If a Member wants to ask more than one supplementary questions, he or she should indicate his or her intention to do so after the first question has been answered. I will allow the Member concerned to raise further questions if time permits.

　 PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First Question. Mr TAM Yiu-chung.

Comprehensive Social Security Assistance　

1. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council of:

　

1. the number of persons who received assistance under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) scheme on account of unemployment in each of the past three years, together with a breakdown of these persons by sex, age, job last held and family size; and

   　

2. the measures in place to assist unemployed persons in securing employment or encourage them to take up part-time work, so as to enable them to become employed again as early as possible and thereby increasing their income?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　 SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President,

　

1. According to the administrative records of the Social Welfare Department, the number of cases involving applicants who claimed "unemployment" to be the principal reason for their seeking assistance under the CSSA Scheme was as follows:

　

1994	4 900
1995	8 800
1996	14 200

Although we do not have statistical information on their profiles nor the jobs in which they were previously engaged, according to a sample study of CSSA recipients, the estimated profile of "unemployed" persons as at end 1994, 1995 and 1996 is as follows:

	1994	1995	1996
(i) Sex
Male	91%	86%	85%
Female	the remainder
(ii) Age
15-29	6%	7%	11%
30-59	94%	93%	89%
(iii) Family Size (eligible members per household)
1-person 2-or more persons	77%	74%	72%
	the remainder

　

2. It is Government policy to help unemployed persons, especially "unemployed" CSSA recipients who have the ability to work, to join or rejoin the workforce. Various measures are built into the CSSA Scheme for the purpose ─ able-bodied adult aged between 15 and 59 are required to register with the Labour Department for employment assistance: these job seekers are offered priority in their registration with the Local Employment Service. They can either choose to use the self-help mode of employment service or join the Job Matching Programme which provides in-depth interviews and counselling as well as job matching and placement services. For disabled "unemployed" CSSA recipients who wish to seek open employment, the Selective Placement Division of the Labour Department provides specialised placement services.

   In addition, CSSA recipients are advised to join the Employee Retraining Scheme organized by the Employees Retraining Board, the courses are considered useful in helping them find employment. CSSA recipients are offered priority in suitable courses to enhance their employability. To provide further incentive, "unemployed" CSSA recipients will have the retraining allowances that they may receive disregarded for the purpose of assessing their CSSA entitlement. All training bodies also provide placement services for retrainees.

   　

   We are considering further measures to motivate "unemployed" CSSA recipients obtain employment. This may take the form of an intensive and targetted approach to selected "unemployed" CSSA recipients with a view to identifying their aptitude, skills, training/retraining needs and, with the support of counselling, job placement and retraining services, assisting them in rejoining the workforce and eventually getting off the welfare net.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TAM Yiu-chung.

　

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): The information provided by the Secretary for Health and Welfare indicates that the number of people who have to live on CSSA due to unemployment has multiplied, and the age of these people has a tendency to get younger as well. Will the Government inform this Council whether it will consider the idea of increasing the level of disregarded income, so as to encourage CSSA recipients to improve their financial situation by making active attempts to join the workforce? In the case of a single-parent family with two children, for example, it can receive roughly $10,500 of CSSA per month. But, if the CSSA recipient now manages to earn $3,200 per month by working part-time on a half-day basis, the Government will deduct $1,480 from his CSSA payments. This may diminish the incentive of CSSA recipients to rejoin the workforce. Does the Government agree to this point?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, one of the measures which we will consider concerns the level of disregarded income. Currently, the level of disregarded income is $1,535, and we agree that this may cause CSSA recipients to be reluctant to look for employment. We will consider this issue during the review.

　

As regards CSSA payments for four-member families, their individual circumstances vary a great deal. In many cases, CSSA rates are determined by a number of factors which include the situation of family members concerned, whether the children are of school age, degree of disability, illnesses and diseases, as well as any special arrangements thus required. Therefore, we cannot offer the same rate to all families of the same size. Of course, we will consider factors like overall family income, available job opportunities in the labour market and the attractiveness of salaries to CSSA recipients.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

　

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the reply made by the Administration, the number of cases involving applicants who claimed "unemployment" to be the reason for seeking CSSA assistance has increased by 300%, from 4 900 in 1994 to 14 200 in 1996. What is the reason for such an increase? Besides, how many unemployed CSSA recipients are able to obtain employment again?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　 SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the increase referred to may have been caused by a number of factors, but we have not conducted a thorough survey on this. However, we are still able to give a few possible reasons: the general public may have become more acquainted with the CSSA Scheme; improvements to our CSSA scheme may have made more people eligible; and, the attitude of the general public towards receiving CSSA may have changed. All these are possible reasons. We notice that may unemployed CSSA recipients are able to obtain employment again after some time. According to one of our surveys, about 4 000 people managed to quit the CSSA Scheme in 1996. We did not try to find out whether this was due to re-employment or other reasons. What is important is that they did quit from our Scheme, and we hope that re-employment was the reason.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

　

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe that for a person who starts to work again after a period of unemployment, he will incur relatively much more expenses in the first few months following re-employment. In order to help those re-employed people to get through such a period, will the Government consider another measure on top of disregarded income, that is, a lengthening of the disregarded income validity period as much as possible, so that these people can have time to settle down in their new jobs before their assistance payments are cut off?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, this is a very pragmatic suggestion. Besides disregarded income, another great help to the re-employed will be the length of the validity period of disregarded income. We will certainly consider this proposal.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Wing-chan.

　

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (b) of the reply, it is mentioned that the Employees Retraining Scheme is helpful to those unemployed people in seeking employment. As far as I know, when many retrainees look for employment after completing their retraining courses, employers do not like, or to be more exact, are not quite willing, to employ them. Has the Government worked out any measures to change the attitude of employers, so that the retraining courses can serve their desired purpose of enabling the unemployed people to seek employment more easily?

*

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): I think it is up to individual employers to decide whether or not they are going to employ individual job-seekers. Naturally, an employer will have to consider what kind of people he wants in the light of job requirements. However, after all these years, we find that many employers are by now well acquainted with the programmes, objectives and the retrainees' achievements under our Retraining Scheme. In this regard, I believe that the Employees Retraining Board will conduct more publicity so that employers can have a still better understanding of the quality of the retraining courses as well as how much the retrainees have learnt.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (b) of the main reply, the Government says that they will consider further measures to encourage "unemployed" CSSA recipients to seek employment. I welcome this move of the Government. In the past, we have in fact pointed out time and again that the unemployed do want to seek employment. However, they are confronted with various difficulties. For example, they have to buy newspapers, in order to keep posted on the job market; they have to make telephone calls; and they have to buy clothes or go to the barber shop before attending interviews. All these incur expenses and indeed pose problems to "unemployed" CSSA recipients. When considering other measures, will the Government take into account the view that we have been expressing all along, and that is, if we are to encourage them to seek employment, we have to extend our assistance to them to cover their needs in this regard?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): When reviewing the whole scheme, we will consider the additional expenses mentioned just now by the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han. Nevertheless, we have to deal with some technical problems when we decide on an appropriate level of payment or on the categories of people who should be eligible for such assistance. But we will consider this series of needs.

*

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Kai-ming.

　

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): Madam President, in regard to the claiming of CSSA on unemployment grounds, will the Secretary for Health and Welfare please tell us the respective durations of the longest and shortest claiming periods?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): According to a sample survey conducted by us, the claiming period is 11 months on average. But we do not have any figures on the respective durations of the shortest and longest claiming periods.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAW Cheung-kwok.

　

MR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, what measures have the Government put in place to make sure that people will voluntarily withdraw from the CSSA Scheme after they have secured jobs and got their conditions improved?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　 SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have been relying mainly on their declarations. And, a special team of officers will also conduct home visits on a regular basis. However, for the latter, we do need more manpower on our establishment. If possible, we will increase the strength of staff conducting home visits.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Siu-yee.

　

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): In regard to the 14 200 cases mentioned in the reply, will the Secretary for Health and Welfare tell us how many of the families involved are new immigrants? And, how many people have to stay at home and become unemployed because of the addition of new immigrants to their families? Does the Government have any figures in these respects?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am afraid that we do not have any breakdown on these because when people come to Hong Kong, and if they can meet our requirements, we will regard them as Hong Kong citizens. But, we can conduct more surveys in this regard in the future, and I am sure that we will then have more information.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Yiu-tong.

　

MR CHENG YIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (a) of the main reply, the Government mentions that in 1996, the number of applicants who claimed "unemployment" to be the reason for seeking assistance under the CSSA Scheme increased drastically. That being the case, will the Government consider setting up a separate unemployment relief fund in order to help the unemployed tide over their temporary plights?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Under the existing system, we regard the unemployed as people who need assistance. That is why we have grouped them under the CSSA Scheme. We will not separate them into a group and then deal with them by establishing a separate unemployment relief fund.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second question. Mrs Miriam LAU.

　

Central-Wan Chai Bypass and Island Eastern Corridor Link　

2. MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): In order to relieve existing traffic congestion along the waterfront in the northern part of Hong Kong Island, the Government has planned to construct the Central-Wan Chai Bypass and the Island Eastern Corridor Link. However, the recently enacted Protection of the Harbour Ordinance provides that there shall be a presumption against reclamation in the central harbour. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the specific impact of the Ordinance on these two road projects; and

2. whether the Government will proceed with the construction works of these two projects notwithstanding the provision in the above-mentioned Ordinance regarding the presumption against reclamation in the central harbour?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

　

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, parts (a) and (b) of the Question are inter-related and I will deal with them together in my reply. As the Honourable Member rightly pointed out, the Central-Wan Chai Bypass and Island Eastern Corridor Link road projects together will form a strategic corridor to channelize the east-west traffic on the northern shore of Hong Kong Island and help relieve the existing traffic congestion around the entrance of the Cross Harbour Tunnel. They are also essential to the existing and future developments on the whole Central and Wan Chai Reclamation.

　

The Central-Wan Chai Bypass will fall within Central Reclamation Phase I, Central Reclamation Phase III and part of Wan Chai Reclamation Phase II. The Island Eastern Corridor Link will be located in the eastern part of Wan Chai Reclamation Phase II as an extension of the Central-Wan Chai Bypass, linking with the Island Eastern Corridor.

　

At present, only Central Reclamation Phase I has been completed. Construction of the two planned roads and the other reclamations just mentioned will involve "work over and upon any foreshore and sea-bed" (a definition quoted from the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance) in the central harbour and hence are "reclamation" as defined by the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance. The Ordinance establishes a principle of a presumption against reclamation in the central harbour and a public law duty requiring all public officers and public bodies to have regard to the principle for guidance in the exercise of their powers. It is however silent on implementation, such as who to decide and how to judge whether the principle is applied or not, and what the sanctions are if someone has broken the principle. Such ambiguities create uncertainties on the operations of public officers and public bodies including government departments and possibly ExCo, the Finance Committee of the Provisional Legislative Council, Town Planning Board and public corporations like the utilities companies and the public transport companies, including the two railway companies as they have to carry out works like laying of submarine cables. At present, the Administration is still working on the Territorial Development Strategy Review while we also have to study the impact of the Ordinance on reclamation and infrastructural projects in the central harbour. The Administration is therefore not yet in a position to take any decision on the construction of the Central-Wan Chai Bypass and the Island Eastern Corridor Link before completing these studies.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Miriam LAU.

　

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the Administration also views that the Ordinance is marked with many grey areas in its implementation and enforcement, will the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands inform this Council whether the Administration sees any urgent need to amend the Ordinance, so as to achieve greater clarity for the relevant provisions of the Ordinance? If the Administration proposes any amendment to the Ordinance, will it consider exempting the Island East Corridor Link and the Central-Wan Chai Bypass from the no-reclamation zone in the central harbour, so that the construction works of these two highly important road projects can proceed as soon as possible? Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

　

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 16 July when the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) considered the issue of freezing the Protection of the Harbour Bill, the Administration has already made a clear undertaking to the Council that, by late September, it would complete a study on how the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance would affect the statutory and administrative procedures which existing public officers and public bodies have to follow when deciding on and carrying out construction works. We also undertook to brief the Council on the impact at the end of September when this detailed study will be completed. Before reaching any conclusions, we can only treat the second part of Mrs LAU's question as an item warranting consideration.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: The Government says that it is not in a position to make any decision until it has finished its review on the impact of the Ordinance. Can the Government tell us whether in fact stages 2 and 3 of the Central-Wanchai Bypass and the Island Eastern Corridor Link are already behind schedule or that they have not reached that stage yet?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport. 　

　

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam President, when we undertook the second Comprehensive Transport Study (CTS2), which was completed in 1989, and when we updated that study in 1993, the recommendation was clear that we needed to construct the Central-Wan Chai Bypass and the Island Eastern Corridor Link by early 2000, in order to provide essential relief to the existing East-West road network on the northern shore of Hong Kong Island. The projects are obviously essential to serve the additional traffic that would be generated by the developments on the Central and Wan Chai Reclamation. 　

@PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

　

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Transport has in effect admitted that the projects are behind schedule because, as he put it, their original scheduled completion date is early 2000. Suppose the projects could be resumed upon the completion of the review in autumn this year, will the Secretary for Transport please tell us when they can be completed, in 2001 or in 2002?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport.

　

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, even though we are granted immediate permission to proceed with these projects today, we will still need more than a decade to complete the construction works concerned. Therefore, as a matter of fact, we cannot afford any further delay. In case there is any further hindrance, we will have to defer the completion date accordingly. We, therefore, very much hope that the problems brought about by the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance can be solved as soon as possible so that we can proceed with the projects at the earliest possible time.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese) Third question. Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

　

Monitoring System adopted by the Examinations Authority 　

3. MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): A Subject Officer of the Hong Kong Examinations Authority (HKEA) was found guilty of stealing the examination papers for his son who was a candidate for this year's Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination. The officer concerned was now awaiting sentencing by the court. The incident has aroused wide public concern and caused negative impact on the credibility of the HKEA. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council what measures will be adopted by the HKEA to step up the regulation of, as well as improve, the HKEA's monitoring system?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese) Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Hong Kong Examinations Authority is an independent statutory body responsible for, amongst other things, the administration of the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination (HKCEE) and the Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination (HKALE). The HKEA has a full time Secretariat headed by the Secretary. The work of the Secretariat is monitored and regulated by the Main Board of the HKEA consisting of 24 external members from the education and other professions appointed in accordance with the Hong Kong Examinations Authority Ordinance. Over the years, the HKEA has maintained a high level of credibility in respect of the two public examinations.

　

The HKEA has a well established declaration and monitoring system covering all persons who have access to confidential information related to the HKCEE and HKALE, including HKEA staff, setters, moderators and examiners. Every year, these persons are required to declare whether they have any close relatives taking the examinations of the HKEA. Setters, moderators and examiners who have close relatives taking the HKCEE or HKALE are not allowed to be involved in the related examination papers.

　

In the case of staff members having close relatives taking the HKEA's examinations, redeployment of duties will be arranged as far as possible. As a rule, the results of candidates who are associated with HKEA's staff are checked before the publication of the results of the HKCEE and HKALE. Where necessary, reference is made to the school results of the candidates.

The HKEA places great emphasis on the security of its operations. The internal operational procedures are regularly reviewed, and the Corruption Prevention Department of the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) was invited in the past to examine various aspects of the HKEA's operations. The general security system has been considered to be basically sound.

　

In view of the recent incident, the main Board of the HKEA has invited the ICAC again to assist in re-examining the security system concerning storage and safekeeping of confidential documents. The ICAC will make recommendations for upgrading the security system for consideration by the HKEA Main Board at its meeting in October. Subject to the approval by the Main Board, the recommendations will be implemented prior to the completion of moderation work for the 1998 HKCEE and HKALE.

　 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

　

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary just mentioned about the declaration system, improving the security system and operational procedures and so on. All these are, of course, very important. However, since the preparation work entailed for holding examinations is a highly intensive task in terms of manpower, the conduct of staff is also equally important. Will the Government inform this Council how the Hong Kong Examinations Authority will follow up the question on staff conduct?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have already mentioned in the main reply that we have a declaration system covering all staff members of the Hong Kong Examinations Authority (HKEA) and all persons who have access to confidential documents and information, and even the staff of the Printing Department. We believe that this system is basically sound. In regard to the recent incident, we will continue to follow up any further recommendations put forward by the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

　

I would also like to clarify that in the recent incident, the point in question does not involve the declaration system. The officer concerned has actually made a declaration. What the recent incident has reflected is whether we need to further strengthen the system of keeping confidential documents. In fact, no system is perfect, but we will still spare no efforts to do our best. However, we learn from the recent incident and also from the court hearing that the officer concerned has actually harboured an ulterior motive and had even started his plan two years ago. Nevertheless, we will further review and improve our security system in the light of the recent incident.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question. Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

　

Industrial Accidents associated with Summer Jobs

4. MR CHOI KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council of:

　

1. the number of industrial accidents involving students undertaking summer jobs, and the number of casualties thereof, in each of the past three years;

   　

2. the types of trades in which the above-mentioned industrial accidents occurred; and

   　

3. whether the authority concerned has conducted any investigations into the causes of industrial accidents involving students undertaking summer jobs; and what measures will be adopted by the authority concerned to prevent the occurrence of such incidents?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President,

　

1. In the years 1994, 1995 and 1996, the number of industrial accidents involving students undertaking summer jobs was 17, 23 and nine respectively. All of them involved only minor injuries, and no fatality was reported.

   　

2. These accidents occurred in the catering, manufacturing, storage/warehouse and food production industries.

   　

3. As with other industrial accidents, these cases were examined by the Labour Department. It was found that most of these accidents were caused by unsafe handling of hot or corrosive substances, hand tools or machinery. Others resulted from falls or the workers being struck by objects.
   
   The Labour Department, the Education Department and the Occupational Safety and Health Council have been taking various measures to promote the awareness of safety at work among secondary school students so as to prevent the occurrence of accidents:
   
   
   1. Pamphlets prepared by the Labour Department about work safety with particular reference to summer jobs are distributed to secondary schools through the Education Department. In distributing the pamphlets, the Education Department requests teachers to advise students not to take up hazardous summer jobs, such as working at construction sites, operating heavy machinery and lifting appliances, working at height, using chemicals or doing work involving heat treatment or the use of fire. Students intending to work in the catering industry are also advised to be careful with the use of food making machines, stoves, knives and chemical cleaning agents.

      　

   2. Secondary schools are encouraged by the Education Department to organize activities such as talks and exhibitions to remind students not to take up hazardous jobs. Press briefings are held by the Labour Department before the commencement of summer vacation to advise students to stay away from potentially dangerous jobs and to remind them of work safety rules. Factory Inspectors of the Labour Department are invited to the schools to give talks and video shows on industrial safety.

      　

   3. Safety slogan or cartoon competitions are organized to reinforce students' safety awareness. This year, an Occupational Safety Charter Maxim Design Competition was held in May. It was jointly organized by the Labour Department, the Education Department, the Occupational Safety and Health Council, Radio Television Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Association of Careers Masters and Guidance Masters.

      　

   4. Factory inspectors of the Labour Department pay more attention to summer job workers during their inspections over the summer holidays. In May this year, the Labour Department launched a safety campaign in the catering industry. In view of the fact that most industrial accidents involving summer job students happen in the catering industry, the Department chose "summer job safety" as one of the main themes of the campaign.

      　

   5. Activities are also organized by the Occupational Safety and Health Council to promote work safety among students. Every year, the Council organizes and broadcasts promotional programmes on summer job safety and health before the summer vacation. It has also prepared teaching kits on occupational safety and health for distribution to all secondary schools. Up to now, three modules have been completed, covering general awareness of occupational safety and health, summer job safety and chemical safety.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

　

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, as at this moment, has the Administration put in place any regulations which prohibit the employment of summer job workers in some industries or work types with an element of danger?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as far as regulation is concerned, we do in some cases lay down age restrictions. For example, people under the age of 18 are not allowed to work in construction sites or operate any dangerous machinery. Apart from this, our labour legislation do not make any particular reference to the background of employees. We also have reasons to believe that when seeking summer jobs, some secondary school students do not tell employers whether or not they will continue with school. But, at least, there is an age restriction. As I have said in the main reply, when they conduct inspections, Factory Inspectors of the Labour Department will pay more particular attention to the occupational safety of younger workers.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong.

　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is mentioned in paragraph (c)(ii) of the Government's main reply that Factory Inspectors of the Labour Department will visit schools and give talks on industrial safety. In the past three years, how many schools did Labour Inspectors visit to give talks on industrial safety?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, if we look at the last three years, and if we look at 1994, for example, we will notice that the Labour Department held 57 talks, which were attended by 18 000 secondary school students and 1 600 students of the Vocational Training Council. I do not have the number of schools involved at hand. With your permission, I will obtain the figures from the Labour Department and give a written reply to him later on. (Annex I)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Eric LI.

　

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, we are indeed very lucky that very few industrial accidents involving young summer job workers have been recorded over the last three years. However, one or two years before that, there occurred an accident in which a summer job worker fell to his death in a construction site. This incident led the Commission on Youth and the relevant authorities to conduct a thorough review on the situation, and I am glad to see that many of their suggestions have been carried out. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the Government's existing approach has laid stress on educating the young people only, and employers have not been given any necessary instructions. For example, should employers consider assigning young people to less hazardous work? Or, should experienced workers be assigned to assist and supervise young workers in order to minimize the risks of their work?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as Mr Eric LI has just said, the accidents involving students holding summer jobs only account for a practically negligible percentage of all industrial accidents. For example, in 1996, there were nine such accidents, which is a very small number when compared with the total of 40 000 industrial accidents that year. Having noted our publicity efforts directed at students, Mr LI has also asked whether we have visited any factories to convey the message to employers as well. I believe that the Labour Department has always been conducting extensive publicity on the responsibilities which employers are required to shoulder in respect of occupational safety. Our publicity on occupational safety does not target at the background of employees. But, as I have already said, we do pay special attention to the safety of young employee at work during our inspections. After listening to Mr LI's views, I may perhaps study the matter with my colleagues in the Labour Department. It is hoped that they will monitor the future situation and see if there is any need for a special publicity campaign targeting at employers on work safety of students taking up summer jobs.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Charles YEUNG.

　

DR YEUNG CHUN-KAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask whether the Government has considered the possibility of requiring all students to undergo industrial safety training before taking up summer jobs?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have no intention of considering this possibility at all, because under the existing policy on industrial safety, no employee of any single trade is required to undergo any pre-employment industrial safety training. We are now considering the possibility of requiring some industries, such as the highly hazardous construction industry, to adopt a mandatory occupational safety training programme. But, we feel that as a result of our publicity and education efforts, students will no longer take up some relatively dangerous jobs. In fact, because of strict legislative control, many employers will not dare to hire inexperienced and untrained young students to undertake dangerous jobs. Statistics also show that this issue is no cause of worry, nor does it require any strict control measures.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching.

　

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask whether employers are required to take out insurance policies for summer job workers and whether summer job workers are compensated in the same way as other employees?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, even if only one student is involved, for as long as he is formally employed as an employee of the trade concerned, his employer is required to treat him in exactly the same way as he would treat all other employees. This applies to taking out insurance policies and the responsibilities arising from any breach of labour legislation.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

　

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has touched upon many aspects of summer job occupational safety. As far as I know, many summer jobs are in fact traps. For example, high salaries may be offered to attract young people to engage in financial speculation. Has the Government conducted any publicity activities to arouse students' awareness of these traps?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower, since this question has deviated from the main question, you can decide whether or not you would like to answer it.

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to answer Mr YEUNG's question very briefly. As Mr YEUNG may be aware, before the summer holidays begin every year, the relevant departments will launch a publicity campaign to remind students seeking summer jobs to be very careful, so as to avoid falling prey to traps. If Mr YEUNG wishes to have a more detailed discussion in this regard, I will be glad to further explain the matter to Members of this Council at the meetings of the Panel on Manpower.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fifth question. Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

　 　

Blood Transfusion Mismatch 　

5. MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): It was reported that another incident of mismatched blood transfusion occurred recently in a public hospital. In this connection, does the Government know:

　

1. of the time when the hospital concerned learned of the above incident;
   
   
2. of the follow-up actions (such as notifying the family of the victim, giving a public account of the incident, conducting an investigation and finding out who should be held responsible and so on) taken by the hospital;

   　

3. whether any measures have been taken by the Hospital Authority following the incident to strengthen the monitoring of blood transfusion procedures of public hospitals;

   　

4. whether the Hospital Authority will review the existing guidelines on blood transfusion issued to public hospitals; and

   　

5. of the proceedings and findings of the investigations held after the occurrence of the previous two incidents of mismatched blood transfusion; whether disciplinary actions have been taken against any medical staff and, if so, what such actions are?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President,

　

1. The incident of mismatched blood transfusion occurred on 9 August 1997. A traffic accident victim in critical condition was admitted to Queen Mary Hospital (QMH) for emergency treatment at about 10 pm on that day. The patient was given a transfusion of five packets of blood in the A&E department. At 11.40 pm, he was sent to the Intensive Care Unit for emergency treatment and was given another six packets of blood. At 1 am on 10 August, the rescue team discovered that four packets of the wrong group of blood had been used for transfusion. Remedial measures were immediately taken.

   　

2. Upon the death of the patient at 3.55 am, the hospital briefed the patient's family on the emergency treatment rendered and the unfortunate incident of giving the deceased the wrong group of blood, and explained that the case would be submitted to the Coroner for investigation. On the other hand, the hospital management immediately launched a preliminary investigation into the circumstances leading to the mistake and reviewed the procedures for urgent blood transfusion in the hospital. In response to media enquiry, the Hospital Authority (HA) confirmed on 12 August that a mismatched blood transfusion occurred in the course of emergency treatment. Two days later, the HA announced the findings of the preliminary investigation and the new measures for improving the procedures for urgent blood transfusion in order to prevent a recurrence of similar incidents. The case was also referred to the Coroner for investigation. Upon the release of the findings of the investigation, the HA will initiate discussion of the issue of liability with the deceased's family.

   　

3. Upon completion of the preliminary investigation, the hospital management of QMH have implemented the following measures to improve the procedures for urgent blood transfusion:
   
   
   1. To remind staff to adhere to the established transfusion procedures and strengthen staff training in this respect; and

      　

   2. To store only Group O blood in the Intensive Care Unit for emergency use as it is universally-compatible for blood transfusions.
      
      In addition, the HA has set up a special review panel comprising medical experts to inquire into the incident in QMH and thoroughly review the professional standard of blood transfusion. Findings of the investigation will be announced to the public.
4. The HA has constantly reviewed the guidelines on blood transfusion procedures. At the end of last year, the HA established a working group to review in detail the entire blood transfusion process, including the procedures for the collection, testing, delivery and transfusion of blood. The working group's recommendations, including guidelines for improving blood transfusion procedures, have been communicated to all hospitals on 1 August 1997 for implementation. The HA will gain experience from this incident and will improve its services. The recommendations of the special review panel will be incorporated into the guidelines upon completion of the review.

   　

5. Two other incidents of mismatched blood transfusion occurred in Queen Elizabeth Hospital (QEH) in 1996 and in Ruttonjee Hospital (RH) in 1995. Both incidents were thoroughly investigated by the hospital management. It was found that both incidents were caused by human error. A written warning was issued to a doctor and verbal warning to a nurse in QEH. In the case of RH, a written warning was issued to a medical technologist who was also suspended from performing duties in the blood bank for three months.

　 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

　

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): The Hospital Authority (HA) has issued guidelines on improved blood transfusion procedures to all hospitals on 1 August. But, just a little more than a week later, on 9 August, yet another incident of mismatched blood transfusion occurred. Although the Government has set up a working group to review the situation, medical blunders still occur one after another, victimizing the patients. Madam President, today we hear of another incident in which some dairy nutritional fluid, rather than mismatched blood, was injected into the blood vessel of a patient. I want to know whether or not the Government has taken any contingency measures to ensure that medical blunders will not occur again? If yes, what are they?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the recent mismatched blood transfusion is indeed a most unfortunate incident. The Chief Executive of the Hospital Authority (HA) and the Chief Executive of Queen Mary Hospital have given me an account of the whole incident and the improvement measures to be taken. I have also written to the Chairman of the HA, demanding the HA to report to the Government the progress of the investigation and submit to us a review report. I understand that the HA has planned to set up a special committee to review the monitory system of their clinical medical services and the professional accountability system. The scope of this review will cover clinical guidelines and procedures, clinical inspection, as well as the supervision and training of staff.

　 The HA will submit the report to the Government when the review is completed. I know that the HA also plans to invite some highly experienced medical experts from abroad to assist in the review. The review panel will include members of the HA and other professionals.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

　

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): The recent spate of medical blunders in public hospitals and the shocking transfusion of dairy nutritional fluid into the blood vessel of a patient have indicated that mismatched blood transfusion is not an isolated incident, and something has gone seriously wrong with our public hospital system. Will the Government require the HA to appoint an expert task force to conduct a comprehensive review, not only on the incidents in question, but also on the deployment of medical staff in all hospitals, the number of doctors needed in Hong Kong, as well as the allocation of holders of medical degrees? Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the course of the review, we will look at different measures in different aspects. First, as I have just said, we will require the HA to set up a special working group to conduct a review on the overall medical monitory system. Besides, individual hospitals themselves should also keep improving their respective monitory systems. On the part of the HA, it also examines the performance of its existing mechanism on each of the above items. For example, the HA has put in place a reporting system on medical incidents which requires every hospital to report to its Hospital Chief Executive or the HA concerning the use of drugs, blood transfusion and all medical incidents that may lead to litigation.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEONG Che-hung.

　

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as my colleagues have said, besides mismatched blood transfusion, many other medical blunders in public hospitals have been reported up one after another. In view of this, will the Administration, deep in their hearts, agree that there is indeed a drop in medical care standards, either for individual hospitals or for the HA as a whole? If no, what is the Government going to do to restore public confidence in the HA and public hospitals, and how is it going to maintain the plummenting morale of medical personnels?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think it will be far too early to conclude that there is something wrong with the standard of our medical treatment before the review is finished. I think that we have to wait until the comprehensive review is completed before we can have an idea and judge whether our medical treatment is up to standard.

　

As a result of so many recent incidents, the medical staff of our hospitals are somewhat disturbed. However, because they have undergone professional training, they should possess the right conduct and attitude towards their work and they will continue to provide the best services to the patients.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think that the transfusion of mismatched blood is a grave error, but in cases like this in the past, the Government had issued only verbal warnings or written warnings as a form of punishment. Does the Secretary, as the representative of the Government consider this inadequate? And, is this inadequate punishment the indirect cause of the repeated occurrences of such blunders? Moreover, besides verbal warning, written warning and suspension from work, what other further punitive measures are there?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, in general, the officer in charge of a hospital would decide what punitive actions to take, but in more serious cases, the relevant Hospital Governing Committee will make the decision. As I have already said, verbal warning, written warning and suspension from work are all forms of punishments. Besides, if professional negligence is detected on the part of medical staff, one can normally complain to the relevant professional council. There is the Hong Kong Medical Council for doctors, a professional council for nurses and lots of others, which all receive complaints. These professional councils would appoint the relevant professionals to carry out investigations and decide on what punitive action to take.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong.

　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): I would like to follow up on paragraph (c)(ii) of the main reply which mentions that they might perhaps just store Group O blood in the intensive care unit. There are about eight to 10 major hospitals in Hong Kong and many of them also have their own intensive care units. Normally, there is more than one patient in the intensive care unit and sometimes there may be many. If we only store Group O blood, will there be enough Group O blood to meet all demands? If only Group O blood is stored, would that be somewhat like trimming the toes to fit the shoe?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): As I understand it, our hospitals will not thus run short of Group O blood. Group O blood will be used only under very urgent circumstances, in which there is no time to do blood group test or blood group matching.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, there are still four Members waiting to ask supplementary questions. I suggest that we should stop after they have asked their supplementary questions. If Members are interested in having further discussions on this subject, they can follow up at the meetings of the relevant panel.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): We also discussed this problem in the relevant panel but while we were discussing the issue, incidents continued to occur. The Honourable CHAN Kam-lam's question today is just the one that we have wanted to raise. Madam President, what the Government is doing now are just to apologize and promise to set up a working group. I notice from the reply of the Secretary that the Government has released the details of the incidents only because of media inquiry. I am concerned about the transparency of the whole monitoring system. I do believe that medical workers all care about their patients, but, I think these problems have indeed aroused great concern in the community. How about the HA's clinical supervision of the medical system? I feel that ......

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN, please state your question.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): My question is about staffing, monitoring and transparency. I think that under the present circumstances, the Government should conduct an extensive assessment. Madam President, I would like to make some more comments because before I came there today ......

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What is your question?

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): I have raised three questions, namely, monitoring, transparency and whether there is a need for a comprehensive assessment at this time. But, I still want to cite an example ......

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN, you should discuss this in the relevant panel because this Council has only one hour for questions.

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): I have just raised three questions, and they are monitoring, transparency and whether there is a need for a comprehensive assessment on the clinical process.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Let me talk about monitoring first; or, perhaps let me explain that the HA is a statutory organization which is independent of the civil service. Its daily operation is overseen by its board of directors which consists of medical professionals and members of the public and government officials who do not belong to the medical profession. As this incident has aroused relatively wide concern, apart from reporting to its board of directors, the HA has also had a thorough discussion with me.

　 Concerning transparency, that is the second question, we have to understand that we have to balance the interests of two sides. First is the patient's privacy and second, is the right of the public to be informed. Therefore, we have to inform the family of the deceased or the patient himself immediately after a certain incident has occurred, one example being mismatched blood transfusion. We had no intention to withhold any facts. When the media inquired the hospital about this incident, the hospital also gave a public statement of the whole incident after a preliminary investigation.

　 The third question is about training and monitoring. The HA also has its own monitory system and we all agree that the present system still leaves much to be desired. We hope that after completing the special review that we have recently engaged in, more improvement measures will be taken.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

　

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Mismatched blood transfusion concerns the matter of life and death. Besides such routine procedures as apologizing and conducting a review, will the authorities concerned decide to ask those responsible to resign? Does the Secretary for Health and Welfare think that she also has to share the blame?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, of course no one would want to see mismatched blood transfusion, but, since this has happened, we all feel very sorry. After thorough investigation, if we find that human negligence was involved and punitive action has to be taken, we will certainly do so.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

　

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not replied to my supplementary question. Let me state it once again. Following these recent accidents, the HA has set up a working group to look into the situation. But, how can the Administration ensure that similar accidents will not occur while the review is still in progress (bearing in mind that it normally takes about six to eight months to complete a review). What measures should the Government take to ensure that the whole process will operate in accordance with the original guidelines? Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, medical workers of course will not stop working just because the review is still underway. We will continue to provide the best possible services to meet the demands every day. We have recently completed the review on the guidelines on blood transfusion procedures and we have started to distribute them to every hospital in August. Every hospital will follow the new guidelines to increase their staff's alertness and enhance staff training in this respect, and everyone is required to handle his everyday work very carefully.

　 Furthermore, as major hospitals have to handle many emergency cases and serious injuries, they have adopted some special measures. Each department has now assigned a senior doctor to supervise medical treatment procedures. Many hospitals have already implemented this measure.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

　

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, our Government has said that overseas experts would be invited to take part in the review. Will these experts simply play a supplementary role, meaning that the final report and recommendations are to be finalized by the HA, or will they conduct their own independent review, with no possibility of private deals? Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): I think that it will be up to the HA to work out the detailed approach. But when we conduct this review, we really need the full co-operation of experts in all fields to draw up good recommendations, and, so, it is not advisable to lay down clear-cut scopes of responsibilities. No matter what profession one is in, one has to follow the relevant code of practice. It is just not necessary to assign overseas experts to a certain kind of work and local experts to another. We wish to benefit from the advice of different experts so as to enhance our knowledge in this respect.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

　

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has repeated her reply again. What I have asked about was that she distributed the guidelines on blood transfusion procedures to all hospitals on 1 August, but, yet another incident of mismatched blood transfusion occurred on 9 August, which means that the guidelines had not been properly followed. And now, they have to set up a working group again to review that; and then today we hear that some dairy nutritional fluid has been transfused into a patient's blood vessel. As regards this issue, despite the numerous reviews, problems still arise time and again. Has the Government taken any effective measures to ensure that no blunders will occur again while the review is still underway? Has the Government done this? The Secretary for Health and Welfare has not answered that.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, perhaps I can give some additional comments. Following the distribution of the new guidelines in August, all hospitals are now required to set up a blood transfusion supervisory committee. At the moment, some hospitals have already set up a committee while others have not. But things have to be done step by step. After such committees are set up, they can monitor the internal blood transfusion procedures of hospitals more effectively, and they will require hospitals to collect and record particulars about blood transfusion blunders and report them to the HA. This is one part of the framework. As regards staff training and guidelines, we have to make more efforts to implement them. Every hospital has already engaged itself in the work and of course they should do better in future. But, we should not demand that all existing measures be abolished and new measures be adopted just because of one single accident. We will not change our existing guidelines unless our review identifies any areas which needs improvements, the reason being that every time when new measures and new guidelines are adopted, staff will have to make adjustments and practise, and this will take time and require training.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We simply cannot stop here, though we very much want to. Let me take two more supplementary questions. Dr LEONG Che-hung.

　

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): I am not raising another supplementary question. It is just that the Secretary has not answered one part of my previous question. What I wanted to ask just now is: Very obviously, the HA has over 40 000 staff members and most of them are the silent working majority. In view of this, has the Government considered how to raise the morale of these workers who have not made any mistake? Has it considered how to maintain their morale?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): I believe that the officer in charge of every hospital and the heads of departments in all hospitals are already working hard to maintain the morale of their staff. As all medical personnel are professionally trained, we do not have to worry that their performance would be affected by this incident. Of course, after such an incident, everyone will somehow be disturbed. But I hope that since they are highly-trained professionals, their performance would not thus be affected.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

　

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Why have I still raised my hand after the President has ruled that we should not ask any more questions? That is because all the questions and answers have so far been centred around training, professionalism, code of practice, complaints, reviews and so on. But, what I want to ask concerns something which has perhaps not touched upon so far. We should not rashly criticize medical workers for being irresponsible because as Dr LEONG has just said, many of them are making their contributions silently. Nor should we casually query whether the training of medical staff is sufficiently strict or scientific. The important question is: Will problems keep springing up? As the problem does not necessarily concern professional training, much more significant issues like the administrative framework, or allocation of resources may be involved. Have the Secretary and the HA ever thought deeply about the problem from this perspective?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am grateful that Members have raised this question, and this is in fact our frequent area of concern. Is our administrative structure getting in the way of our work? How can we improve our structure, with a view to facilitating our work? This is also a matter that the senior management of the HA have to keep thinking about. Besides professional training, training and review which we have talked about, and the administrative framework are also something that they must always pay attention to. The administrative framework, staff establishment, and manpower, deployment of staff in each ward, the training and experience of staff members are all issues that every hospital and the HA have to attend to all the time. Should the need for improvement comes up, they will also make appropriate adjustments.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, this is obviously an issue which the public are very much concerned about. But under the limitation of the questioning system, I cannot let everyone speak as much as he wishes to. However I hope that if Members wish to follow up on that, they can continue to do so in the Panel on Health Services.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last question seeking an oral reply. Mr Frederick FUNG. 　

　

Demolition of Temporary Housing Areas　

6. MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): In connection with the Government's decision to clear all the remaining 13 Temporary Housing Areas (THA) by the end of March 2000, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. whether a timetable has been drawn up for clearing the above-mentioned 13 THAs; if so, what the details are;

   　

2. of the number of residents currently residing in the above-mentioned THAs; and

   　

3. of the Government's plan on the proposed usage of the sites following the clearance of the THAs; and of the number of THA sites cleared which will be used for the construction of public rental housing flats, Home Ownership Scheme flats and Sandwich Class Housing Scheme flats, together with the estimated number of flats to be provided and the timeframe for the provision of these flats?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government has proposed in the Long Term Housing Strategy Review Consultative Document published earlier this year to phase out all old-style Temporary Housing Areas (THAs) as soon as possible. The Housing Authority is drawing up a programme to clear the remaining 13 THAs and to make appropriate arrangements to rehouse 11 900 residents.

　

The Yen Chow Street THA will be the first one to be cleared in December this year, and notices have been issued. Timing for clearing the other 12 THAs is being worked out by the Housing Authority.

　

As regards Part (c) of the Question, a list of the 13 THA sites, together with their tentative future use, is at Annex. At present, only the Kwai Lok THA site has been earmarked for housing development, that is, the construction of about 700 Private Sector Participation Scheme flats for sale to low-income families. We are examining the possibility of rezoning some of the other sites for public housing.

　

Annex

Tentative future use of Temporary Housing Area sites

　

		THA	Tentative use
Kowloon
1.	Fat Tseung Street		Government, community and open space
2.	Kai Lok		School and open space
3.	Kai Wo		School
4.	Kai Yiu		District open space
5.	Lung Ping Road		Hospital
6.	Yen Chow Street		District open space
Tsuen Wan/Kwai Tsing
7.	Hing Shing		Industrial and open space
8.	Kwai Shun		Indoor recreation centre
9.	Kwai Lok		Private Sector Participation Scheme flats
10.	Tsing On		Open space
Sai Kung
11.	Sha Kok Mei		Residential, school, indoor recreation centre and open space
12.	Tseung Kwan O		Village housing
Yuen Long
13.	Long Bin		Open space

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Federick FUNG.

　

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the last paragraph of the reply, the Secretary for Housing said that they still had to examine the possibility of rezoning some of the other sites for housing development. However, among the 13 THAs, only one of them has been earmarked for the construction of public housing. I think this is grossly inadequate. The Government once announced that all the 13 THAs would be cleared by March 2000; this is only two odd years from now. Regarding which of the remaining 13 THAs can be used for public housing construction, when can the Secretary expect to give us an answer at the latest? As we all know, there is a very great demand for public housing in our society.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, let me clarify that the Government has not yet fixed a deadline for the clearance of all the 13 THAs. The Housing Authority has put forward a proposed deadline, around 2000. However, they are still reviewing the possibility of this proposed deadline. Since complications arising from some minor technicalities are involved, the Authority needs to consider this time schedule in greater detail, and will not be able to work out a finalized schedule before discussing with the Government again.

Concerning the future use of those 13 THAs, I have already given an explanation in the Annex. Since Draft Outline Zone Plans are incorporated in the planning procedure, we can say that the uses of those sites have been fixed in principle. However, the Government is considering the possibility of rezoning some of the sites the 13 THAs for the construction of housing. If Members look at the tentative land uses of the THAs as stated in the Annex, they may find that some of the specified uses can hardly be altered. Therefore, it is only in the case of several of these THAs that the Government may still discuss with other departments and organizations regarding the alteration of land uses.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am particularly concerned about the THA in Tseung Kwan O. Since a long time ago, this area has been earmarked for the development of small houses. However, it appears that the clearance of the THA will be held up indefinitely. Will this produce any adverse effects on the implementation of the small house policy by the Government?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the clearance of these 13 THAs will not be held up indefinitely. The only thing is that the Housing Authority is still considering the technicalities and it will then discuss the matter with the Government in order to make a joint decision. I believe that the Government will soon formally announce the dates of clearance. There is, of course, a designated land use for the THA in Tseung Kwan O. Once the Government decides on the date of clearance, preparations will start as soon as possible.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the second paragraph of the main reply, the Secretary for Housing has mentioned that the Housing Authority is now drafting up a timetable for the clearance of the remaining THAs. Will the deadline for under this timetable be fixed around the end of March 2000 at the latest?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government has not yet set any deadline at all. As I explained just now, since the Housing Authority considers that the original timetable is not so practicable, it finds it necessary to conduct a review. After the review, the Authority will discuss the matter with the Government with the aim of reaching a final conclusion. The Government will make a formal announcement shortly.

PRESIDENT: The Honourable Mrs Elsie TU.

MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, most of the so-called caged people in Kowloon live in the Sham Shui Po area and when they are offered housing, it is usually in the New Territories. As they are lowly paid and generally old, they cannot take it. Is there any reason why Yan Chow Street should not be used partly for building housing for people in caged dwellings?

　

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to the rehousing of THA residents, the Housing Authority will make the most appropriate allocations by making careful consideration of the existing resources. For the THA at Yen Chow Street, we have planned to clear it by the end of this year and the area has been scheduled for building a park. In this connection, the Government cannot at this stage formulate any plans which seek to change the designated land use because the site has been designated for building a park, and it has been handed over to the Provisional Urban Council. There is a need for building a park because public housing estates will be built in Cheung Sha Wan district. After several years, residents will have this need. Therefore, the designated land use cannot be changed.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the explanation given by the Secretary, the Housing Authority is still reviewing these plans. Recently, we have also learnt that the Chief Executive have requested to build 85 000 flats per year, and that he will inform us of the number of flats to be built in the year. I am confused, and I want to know the relationship between this figure and the Secretary's claim that a review is still going on. If the Government has decided to clear the THAs, there should be adequate resources for rehousing of the residents. Would the Secretary please tell use which case is true?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, we should look at the matter from various angles. The Chief Executive has announced that 85 000 flats should be built each year. The Government has accordingly drawn up a series of plans to vacate land for building the residential units required. The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands has announced on behalf of the Government the plan for each site in the coming two years, and many details including sales of flats, are included. Moreover, he has outlined the supply of lands on a district basis in the coming three years. This shows that we have drawn up plans in general. The Government will seek to construct housing mainly by designating new strategic development zones, altering land uses and encouraging private developers to alter the uses of the lands in their possession. The plans we have drawn up already cover these methods. For the clearance of the THAs, we have no plans to designate specific sites for building flats. If possible, we will, of course, use the sites for building flats. Therefore, there is no contradiction between the two at all. In view of the possible need for temporary housing, the Government has drawn up a series of plans to maintain the supply of THA units to those in need in the future.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG.

　

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am surprised to hear the Secretary for Housing saying that March 2000 would not be the final deadline. The Housing Authority once pledged to clear all THAs in 1997, but one and a half years ago, the Authority held a meeting and proposed to "keep the THAs but rehouse the residents". That is to say, all residents of the THAs will be rehoused whilst the flats will be kept for three more years and will all be cleared by March 2000. As we all know, the facilities of these THA units are very poor. And now, the Government said that even March 2000 is not a deadline, and it further claimed that this is a decision made by the Housing Authority. I am a member of the Housing Authority, but, I have never heard of such a decision before. Is it the case that the Government has made a decision with the Department or some of the members of the Housing Authority secretly? I just wonder why the Government has kept on deferring the date of clearing these THA units which are no longer suitable for living? Why has the Government broken its promise? In fact, this is the third time that it has broken its promise.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, let me reiterate, the Government has never announced a definite date for clearing these THAs. The Government once said that these old-style THAs would be cleared as soon as possible. Our determination is very clear. We have already drawn up a plan internally and have discussed it with the Housing Authority and the Housing Department. A few months ago, the Housing Authority announced that all THAs would be cleared before March 2000. Such a decision was made after they had considered their own information. However, after they had announced their intention, we learnt that they could not proceed with the plan and so, a review should be conducted now. Therefore, the Government has to wait for further information from the Housing Authority. We will then consider the information carefully and come up with a decision before making a formal announcement. Let me say it again, the Government will soon make an announcement.

PRESIDENT: The Honourable Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Madam President, I am equally puzzled and surprised by the statement made by the Secretary for Housing that there is no bottom-line as far as the date is concerned. Does this not contradict or at least fall short of what the Chief Executive promised in his inauguration speech on the morning of 1 July this year?

　

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Housing.

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Madam President, what I have said does not contradict what the Chief Executive said on 1 July. He did express the wish that we will clear temporary housing areas. That is still the Government's wish. I have indicated that we are now working out the full details with the Housing Authority and we are still determined to clear the 13 temporary housing areas. We will very shortly announce the detailed plan for doing so. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

　

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Housing has not answered my question yet, or perhaps, he has taken me wrongly. My question is: if the Government wants to clear the THAs, it should make sure that resources can be made available to allocate housing units to the residents. Now, the Secretary says that no decision has been made yet. However, earlier, he has given us some figures on the number of flats to be constructed each year. I remember that at that time, the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung did ask the Government whether the housing demands of the residents had been excluded from these figures. The Government replied clearly that their computations were based on allocation dates for their resources. The Secretary now says that no decision has been made yet. However, we have already known the number of flats to be built. How were the figures on housing construction computed at that time?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the clearance of THAs will create two types of demands. One is a demand for public rental flats, which, of course, include flats sold under the Home Ownership Scheme. The other one is a demand for new THA units, which are now renamed as interim housing units. Interim housing units are more durable as a living place for the residents. We have drawn up plans in respect of building these units and other aspects and are prepared to rehouse the affected residents. Therefore, the plan mentioned by the Chief Executive of the Special Administrative Region that 85 000 units should be built each year would not be affected.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG.

　

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, Secretary for Housing has mentioned that due to some reasons, it is impossible to clear all THAs by March 2000. (I remember it is stated in a paper of the Housing Authority that the plan would be deferred for three years. Therefore, the deadline should be March 2000.) Can the Secretary announce these reasons now? Why has he estimated that it is impossible to clear all these THAs in the next two and a half years? What are the reasons?

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Housing.

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe that the Housing Authority and the Housing Department have made such a decision after considering the relevant information internally. They have not informed me of any specific reasons which have led to the need to review the deadline of March 2000. Therefore, I have to wait for the details from them. Once I am informed of the details, I would consider them carefully and will make an announcement after drawing a conclusion. Let me say it again, the Government will make a formal announcement soon.

　

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Investment in Information Industry and Infrastructure

7. MR YEUNG CHUN-KAM (in Chinese): In his speech delivered at the ceremony to celebrate the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region held on 1 July this year, the Chief Executive mentioned that the world was entering an information era and that positive measures must be adopted to encourage investment in the information industry and related infrastructure, as well as nurture expertise in this area. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of :

　

1. the details and scope of "investment in the information industry and related infrastructure" mentioned by the Chief Executive; and

   　

2. the specific measures which the Government will adopt to encourage investment in the information industry and related infrastructure?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President, the Information Industry can broadly be taken to include content provision, information conveyance, information utilization, and support for these services. Investments in the information infrastructure could cover the following areas:

　

1. the physical infrastructure, such as the telecommunications networks;

   　

2. the applications and services that use the physical infrastructure for information conveyance, such as video-on-demand, home-banking, home-shopping, tele-medicine and so on; and

   　

3. the supporting services which facilitate further development of the information industry such as equipping the workforce with the necessary skills to support and service the information infrastructure.

　

The Government seeks to provide an appropriate environment to encourage investments in the information infrastructure.

　

Investments in the Hong Kong telecommunications infrastructure, the vital support for the information infrastructure, is estimated to total some $18.9 billion for 1997-2000.

　

The Industry Department and seven of the Government overseas Economic and Trade Offices are actively engaged in encouraging foreign investors to invest in the information technology (IT) and telecommunications sectors in Hong Kong. The Industry Department is also nurturing expertise in IT in many ways. With the establishment of the Industrial Support Fund in 1994, it has supported 26 projects in the IT sector and four projects on telecommunications at a cost of $71 million and $96 million respectively. The Applied Research Council, established by the Government to provide loans to private sector technology ventures, has so far supported nine ventures in the IT/telecommunications field. The Hong Kong Productivity Council has also been active in promoting the application of IT in Hong Kong industries through the provision of training and consultancy services to clients in the manufacturing and services sector. As part of the overall package to encourage investment in industry, Government has also established three industrial estates which offer land at development cost for industries, including IT, which meet the criteria for allocation. The IT industry also benefits from office accommodation and other services provided by the Hong Kong Industrial Technology Centre. The Government is actively planning for a science park.

　

The Office of the Telecommunications Authority has established an Information Infrastructure Advisory Committee (IIAC) in March 1997 to map out a blue print of a physical infrastructure and regulatory environment in which investors may compete fairly and earn a reasonable return on investment. Three task forces and nine working groups have been set up under the IIAC to tackle individual issues on a more detailed and technical level. By March 1998, the IIAC will produce a report setting out its recommendations.

　

The Chief Executive has also announced that the Government proposes to set up an Information Infrastructure Co-ordination Office (IICO). This initiative illustrates the importance which the Government attaches to promoting the development of information infrastructure in Hong Kong. Details concerning the IICO including its responsibilities and its logistics are still being finalized. The Government is intending to make further announcements in the near future on this.

　

Land for School Construction

8.MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Chinese): The Chairman of the Land and Building Advisory Committee indicated the other day that, based on the information available, it is estimated that there is now a shortage of 10 ha of land earmarked for the construction of schools to meet the educational needs of the 66 000 Mainland-born children of Hong Kong permanent residents when they come to settle in Hong Kong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the plans to solve the problem of land shortage mentioned above, and the earliest possible time that the Government is expected to provide the land required;

   　

2. whether the shortage of land will further delay the implementation of such measures as the introduction of whole-day primary schooling and the reduction of floating classes; and

   　

3. in the event that the Government fails to provide sufficient land in the next five years for the construction of the number of secondary and primary schools required, what measures will be adopted to solve the education problem of school-age new arrivals from the Mainland?

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President,

　

(a) and (c)

To meet the educational needs of new arrival children, the Government has added seven primary and nine secondary schools to the School Building Programme. These schools will be completed between the 1997-98 and 1999-2000 school years. In view of the possible increase in the number of new arrival children up to 66 000, apart from accommodating the children in existing vacancies, we will operate additional classes and build another six primary and 10 secondary schools before the 2001-02 school year. We have selected 16 sites from our current stock of school sites for the 16 additional schools.

　

2. The provision of school places for new arrival children will not delay the implementation of our announced plans. These plans include having 40% of government and aided primary school pupils studying on a whole-day basis from the 2001-02 school year, and the elimination of floating classes in Secondary I to V before the 2000-01 school year. In fact, we are considering measures to speed up the implementation of whole-day primary schooling.

Guest List for Ceremony of the Transfer of Sovereignty

9.MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the lists of all the guests invited to attend the farewell ceremony held on 30 June 1997 and the ceremony of the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong held at midnight on the same day?

　

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President, several thousand guests were invited to attend the farewell ceremony and the Handover ceremony. It is not possible to list all the names in this reply. However, the Honourable CHIM Pui-chung may wish to know that these guests included representatives from over 40 foreign governments and over 40 international organizations, representatives of the executive, legislature and judiciary, local guests from a broad cross section of the community, overseas guests with close connection with Hong Kong and media representatives from all over the world.

Pavement Maintenance Work

10.DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Chinese): In order to facilitate the installation and maintenance of public utilities such as water mains and electric wires, a large number of pavements in the territory are paved with floor slabs which are not secured with concrete. However, after continuous periods of heavy rain, the road surface of these pavements becomes rugged as a result of the mud being washed away, thus causing inconvenience and potential hazard to the public. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the existing arrangements adopted by the relevant department to maintain this type of pavements;

   　

2. of the remedial and improvement measures taken by the relevant department to tackle the problem of rugged road surface of these pavements; and

   　

3. whether the Government has any plans to replace the method of constructing pavements mentioned above?

　

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Chinese): Madam President,

　

1. Currently, it is Highways Department's practice to conduct road inspections (including footways) through either routine inspection by car to be undertaken at least once every one to seven days depending on road types, or detailed road inspection on foot to be undertaken at intervals not exceeding six months. Should any defects be identified or reported, the department would arrange for them to be repaired as soon as possible.

2. Under normal conditions, the sand underneath the footway paving units should not be washed away. According to our experience so far, defects do occur as a result of inferior workmanship involving improper preparation of the bedding layer and unsatisfactory jointing. Such workmanship related defects normally show up within the maintenance period following the completion of works. Once identified, they can be easily and relatively quickly rectified and the costs involved will be borne by the contractor. Generally speaking, block pavements which are properly constructed and have been performing well throughout their maintenance period do not create much problem afterwards. We will closely supervise the construction to ensure that they are properly constructed.

   　

3. There are many advantages of using precast paving units for footway:

　

1. Easy to lay and can be walked on instantly without having to wait for the concrete to harden.

   　

2. Quick to remove without the use of noisy jackhammers, thus making it possible to do trenchwork at night time. The paving units can easily be re-installed and can be re-used, wherever practicable, in subsequent pavement reinstatements.

   　

3. Less construction waste than concrete as there is only about 10% breakage from past experience.

   　

4. Aesthetically more pleasing, particularly when different colours and patterns are laid according to the landscape architects' design.

   In view of these merits, we will continue to use this type of pavement construction at suitable locations. However, Highways Department is constantly reviewing the performance of the products used, including their design and the method of construction, and will work towards developing the best model that is suitable for use in Hong Kong.

　

Coins Shortage

　

11. MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Chinese): Currently there is a shortage of coins in circulation, in particular coins of 10-cent and 20-cent denominations, and certain shops have adopted the practice of using small-denomination stamps in place of coins for giving changes. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the current quantities of coins of 10-cent and 20-cent denominations in circulation respectively;

   　

2. what means does the relevant authority have to resolve the problem of shortage of coins; and

   　

3. whether the use by shops of small-denomination stamps in place of coins for the purpose of giving changes constitutes an offence; if so, of the penalty of such an offence?

　

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,

　

1. 179 million pieces of 10-cent coins and 860 million pieces of 20-cent coins are in circulation at present.

   　

2. From March to June 1997, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) put a net total of 27 million additional pieces of 10-cent, 22.5 million pieces of 20-cent and 14 million pieces of 50-cent coins into circulation from its stock. As of June, the total number of coins in circulation were increased by 17% when compared to the same period last year. Starting from 28 July, the HKMA has been puting 100 million pieces of new coins into circulation. The HKMA has also ordered an another lot of 167 million pieces of coins which will be put into circulation from late August onwards.

   　

3. The use of stamps as change is considered a private arrangement between the seller and the buyer. The buyer is not obliged to accept stamps as change. A seller, who merely offers to settle the change due to the buyer by using stamps, is not committing an offence.

"Chevron markings" Trial Scheme

12. MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Chinese): Regarding the "chevron markings" trial scheme implemented by the Transport Department at the section south of Lam Kam Interchange on Tolo Highway in July last year, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the effectiveness of the trial scheme;

   　

2. whether the Transport Department will consider implementing the "chevron markings" scheme on Tolo Highway on a full-scale basis, as well as extending the scheme to other expressways which are regarded as traffic accident black spots such as Tuen Mun Road; and

   　

3. given that a number of recent traffic accidents were caused by tail-gating, whether any other measures, apart from adopting the "chevron markings" trial scheme, are put in place to increase drivers' awareness of keeping a safe distance from other vehicles?

　

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, the "chevron markings" trial scheme was launched in mid-1996 on a section of the Tolo Highway to help drivers learn and maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front. Transport Department is conducting a study on the effectiveness of the trial scheme. In the light of the outcome of the study, expected to be available next month, we will decide on the way ahead for the scheme.

　

Drivers are advised in the Road Users' Code to keep a safe distance from the vehicle in front by using a simple "two-second" rule. Additionally, there are on-going publicity activities to enhance drivers' awareness in this respect. Such activities include road safety campaigns where road safety messages including keeping safe distance are disseminated. This message was included in the 1996 Road Safety Quarterly which is widely distributed to road users through concerned government departments, Hong Kong School of Motoring, Hong Kong Automobile Association, and Institute of Advanced Motorists.

　

Transport Department also made use of the electronic display board at the Aberdeen Tunnel toll plaza area to advise motorists of safety messages. "Keep your distance 保持車距" was adopted as the message for display for three months in 1996 and it will be displayed again soon for another three months.

　

We will continue to reinforce drivers' awareness of the above message in future campaigns and publicity materials. 　

　

Floating Class in Secondary Schools

13. MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): As most of the secondary schools in Hong Kong adopt the floating-class system at the sixth and seventh-form levels, will the Government inform this Council whether there are plans to abolish the floating class system; if so, of the specific timetable for the implementation of such plans?

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President, the Government plans to phase out floating classes in Secondary I to V by the commencement of the 2000-01 school year, through provision of additional classrooms, restructuring of class structure, and building eight additional secondary schools. As for Secondary VI and VII, lessons for many subjects are conducted in special rooms. We therefore consider it acceptable to have floating classes in Secondary VI and VII. If we have to fully eliminate floating classes in Secondary VI and VII, we need to build another 41 secondary schools. In view of the overall shortfall of school sites, we think the reserved school sites should be used to meet more pressing needs, including the provision of school places for new arrival children from the Mainland, and the implementation of whole-day primary schooling. Hence, we do not have plans to fully eliminate floating classes in Secondary VI and VII in the near future.

　

Design of Iron Gates in Public Housing Estates

14.DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Chinese): Recently many public housing tenants have complained about the design of their iron door gates being far too simple and that the gates can be easily forced open, resulting in frequent occurrence of burglary cases. The Housing Department has undertaken to study the problem and make improvements in this regard. In this connection, does the Government know:

　

1. of the findings of the study undertaken by the Housing Department;

   　

2. whether the Housing Authority will replace these iron gates free of charge for these tenants in order to step up security; and

   　

3. whether the Housing Authority has any established guidelines for determining the adoption of door gate design?

　

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Chinese): Madam President, the Housing Department conducted a study recently to identify measures to strengthen the collapsible iron door gates of public rental flats in Harmony blocks, and concluded that altering or replacing certain components of the locks would effectively strengthen the gates and make unlawful entry more difficult.

　

The department will complete all necessary strengthening work before the end of 1998, and will bear the cost.

The department considers it unnecessary to replace existing gates.

The department has established criteria for door gate designs, including robustness, durability and ease of operation. 　

　

Illegal Immigrants Serving Prison Terms in Hong Kong

　

15. MRS ELSIE TU: With regard to illegal immigrants serving prison terms in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the number of illegal immigrants who were sentenced to serve prison terms for entering and taking up work in Hong Kong illegally in each of the past three years;

   　

2. of a breakdown of the above illegal immigrants who are currently serving prison terms according to:

1. nationality;

   　

2. age (below and above the age of 18);

   　

3. duration of prison terms (serving less than 15 months, 15 months and above);

　

3. of the proportion of the above illegal immigrants currently serving prison terms to the total prison population; and

   　

4. whether the above illegal immigrants below the age of 18 serving prison terms are placed in juvenile or adult prisons?

　

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President,

　

1. The number of illegal immigrants who were prosecuted and sentenced to prison terms for entering and taking up work in Hong Kong illegally from 1995 to 1997 (January to July) is as follows:

　

Year	Number
1995	577
1996	525
1997 (January to July)	257

2. The breakdown in respect of the 484 (as of 15 August 1997) illegal immigrants serving prison sentence for entering and taking up work in Hong Kong is as follows:

　

(i)	By nationality	Number
	Mainland Chinese	455
	Vietnamese Migrants	29
(ii)	By age	Number
	below 18	16
	aged 18 and above	468
(iii)	By sentence	Number
	less than 15 months	159
	15 months and over	325

3. The proportion of the above category of prisoners to the total penal population is 5%.

   　

4. The above prisoners below the age of 18 are placed in young offender institutions.

　

Concept of "Providing the Elderly with a Sense of Belonging"

16. MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Chinese): The Director of Social Welfare recently announced that in the consultancy report on residential services for the elderly soon to be released, the Government recommends promoting the concept of "providing the elderly with a sense of belonging" so as to avoid as far as possible relocating the elderly from the districts in which they reside, thus enabling them to enjoy life in their old age in familiar surroundings. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. whether a public consultation exercise will be conducted after the release of the above report; if not, why not;

   　

2. how the concept of "providing the elderly with a sense of belonging" is embodied in the present and future allocations of resources for residential services for the elderly, and whether the Government will make any pledge to achieve this objective;

   　

3. whether the recommendations of the above report will include:

　

1. shortening the waiting time for the allocation of residential places in various elderly institutions;

   　

2. requesting the elderly in a better health condition to move out of the elderly hostels and homes so as to make available residential places for accommodating those with poorer health; if so, whether the consent of the elderly persons concerned will be sought prior to requesting them to move out; and

　

4. Whether the Government will consider extending the concept of "providing the elderly with a sense of belonging" to cover the single and two-person elderly households affected by the Comprehensive Redevelopment Programme of the Housing Authority, in order that these elderly persons can be rehoused in the same locality; if not, why not?

　

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Madam President,

　

1. As the consultancy study has yet to be completed and Government has to consider carefully the viability and practicability of the consultants' recommendations, no decision has been made at this stage on how the public would be consulted.

2. To provide the elderly people with a sense of belonging, Government provides community support services to assist them to live in the community for as long as possible. We are also providing resources, subject to availability, to encourage residential care homes to continue to care for elderly residents whose health conditions deteriorate.

   　

   An infirmary care supplement has been introduced since 1996 to enable residential care homes to employ additional staff to care for elderly residents with deteriorating health. In 97-98, a total of 26.493M has been allocated to 44 homes/hostels to enable them to employ additional personal care workers, nurses and workman II to provide better care for their residents.

   　

   To enable the elderly in residential care to grow old with minimal disruption, arrangements are in place to facilitate internal transfer of residents within the same home if different levels of care services are provided within the same premises. The Wong Chuk Hang Complex for the Elderly consisting of a Care and Attention Home, a Long Stay Care Home and an Infirmary is one example that provides continuous care to elderly in the same residential setting.

　

3. Since the consultancy has yet to be completed, it is difficult to speculate on the final recommendations of the study. The public would be consulted on the recommendations which would have an impact on future provision of services for the elderly.

   　

4. Under the existing policy, elderly persons affected by the Comprehensive Redevelopment Programme (CRP) are rehoused in the same locality as far as practicable. Over the last three years, about 95% of the 5 050 single and two-person elderly households affected by the CRP were rehoused to public rental flats within the same district. The remaining elderly households bought Home Ownership Scheme flats, chose to receive singleton or doubleton allowances, or moved to rental flats in other localities of their choice.

　

Downturn of Tourism Industry 　

17. MR KENNEDY WONG (in Chinese): Tourism has all along played an important role in the economy of Hong Kong. However, the tourism industry has recently experienced a downturn, with the hotel occupancy rate standing at only 50% in July and August this year. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council whether it will adopt measures to assist the tourism industry in overcoming the present downturn in the industry; if so, what the details are?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President, the preliminary figure for the hotel occupancy rate for July 1997 is 58%. This is lower than the rate for the corresponding period in recent years. The hotel occupancy rate for August this year is not yet available. However, the latest forecast of the Hong Kong Tourist Association (HKTA) shows that the number of visitor arrivals to Hong Kong in 1997 will increase by 3% when compared with that in 1996, and will reach a new record of over 12 million.

To maintain Hong Kong's attractiveness as a tourist destination, the HKTA has since May this year launched a "100 Days of Wonders" promotion aimed at boosting the number of visitor arrivals between July and October, particularly from shorthaul markets such as the South East Asian countries. Furthermore, HKTA has been arranging a series of familiarization programmes for the travel trade and media of all key markets to visit Hong Kong. This will help to promote Hong Kong to potential visitors in those markets. As a continuing effort, the HKTA also started this year a series of international events under the umbrella of the five-year Spotlight Hong Kong Programme.

　

Both the Government and the HKTA will continue to make efforts to enhance the competitiveness of the tourism industry. The planned commissioning of the new airport in April 1998 will remove the existing constraint in airport capacity. Moreover, a $50 million Tourist Development Fund was established in mid-1996. It is being used to finance feasibility studies on new tourist attractions such as the Millennium Fair (Hong Kong Exposition) and the Tsing Yi/Ma Wan Film City, and to make improvements to existing tourist facilities such as providing better signage and information kiosks at major tourist spots. 　

　

Standard of Language Examinations of HKCEE 　

18. DR DAVID LI: It is reported that more than 40% of the students who sat for the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination (HKCEE) this year failed in the Chinese Language and English Language subjects. As a result, the Hong Kong Examinations Authority (HKEA) will consider introducing easier language examinations for the academically weak students. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the reasons for the HKEA's intention to introduce easier language examinations instead of adopting measures to improve the language proficiency of students?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Madam President, we are aware that a considerable number of Secondary V students are unable to achieve grade E or above in the subjects of English Language and Chinese Language in the HKCEE. Although these students have failed in the HKCEE language examinations, many of them may possess basic practical language skills which are adequate for the purpose of junior-level employment or admission to certain vocational courses.

　

It was recommended in the draft Education Commission (EC) Report No. 7, published in November 1996 for public consultation that the HKEA should consider proposals to assure the minimum attainment of students, that is, by the introduction of modular examinations. Against this background, the HKEA is now studying the feasibility of introducing basic language proficiency examinations for Chinese and English. These examinations will not be part of the HKCEE system and will be taken by senior secondary students and the general public on a voluntary basis. The standards of these tests would be somewhere between Secondary III and Secondary V, with emphasis on practical skills which are primarily geared to employment purposes.

　

The HKEA is currently consulting appropriate employers' associations, the Administration, the Employee Retraining Board and the Vocational Training Council to find out whether there is any need to certify young people's basic language proficiency.

　

The EC and the Administration have yet to take a final view on the desirability of the proposed examinations. In the meantime, the Education Department and the Standing Committee on Language Education and Research (SCOLAR) will continue to implement the various recommendations of the Education Commission Report No. 6 to upgrade the English and Chinese standards of students. These include extra teacher support for schools adopting mother-tongue teaching; extension of the Chinese and English Extensive Reading Schemes to all levels of primary and secondary schooling over a period of four years; employment of native speaking English teachers; provision of intensive English courses for both Chinese and English-medium Form VI students; development of language benchmarks for all teachers; improving support services for language teaching; reviewing the workload of language teachers and supporting language improvement projects through the Language Fund.

　

Training Programmes for Young People 　

19. MR KENNEDY WONG (in Chinese): Among the 131 000-plus candidates who sat for the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination this year, only 24 000 of them can proceed to Form VI while the rest may have to take up employment. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. how it will help young people to prepare themselves for the challenge of joining the workforce in view of increasing competition in the society; and

   　

2. whether it has formulated any long-term training programmes for young people?

　

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President, first of all, I should like to clarify that the majority of the Secondary V leavers who cannot get subsidized Secondary VI Places do continue their studies in various ways. From past figures, we estimate that only less than 18% would join the labour force. Turning now to the specific question:

　

1. Most secondary schools have careers teams to provide careers guidance to individual students and to conduct careers guidance programmes for small groups as well as on a whole-school basis. Such guidance will help students understand their interests, abilities, needs and priorities so that they can be better prepared for further education, vocational training and employment. Activities conducted by careers teams include:

　

--administering aptitude tests to help students understand their interests and abilities;

　

--organizing careers talks to enable students to know more about various trades and job opportunities; and

　

--arranging visits and holding board exhibitions to introduce students to different jobs and their entry requirements.

　 The Education Department also visits secondary schools to advise on careers guidance programmes.

　

(b)	(i)	The Vocational Training Council (VTC) offers a variety of training programmes to Secondary III and Secondary V school leavers. These include full-time technical education in technical colleges and technical institutes, full-time industrial training in training centres, and placement with employers in technician apprenticeship or traineeship.
	(ii)	In September 1997, the two technical colleges and the seven technical institutes will be offering a total of 1 784 higher diploma places and 4 880 diploma places. In addition, a total of 1 246 full-time places will be made available at training centres throughout 1997-98.
	(iii)	To promote these services and programmes, the VTC holds school talks and exhibitions every summer. This year 13 exhibitions were held and a total of 255 talks were given to secondary schools.

　

Central Library　

20. MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Chinese): It is learnt that in its proposal to the Provisional Urban Council to cut the construction costs of the Central Library, the Architectural Services Department (ASD) has suggested deleting two lifts specially for the use of the disabled. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

　

1. of the facilities included in the architectural design of the Central Library which are provided for the use of those who are physically handicapped, and those who have visual or hearing impairment;

   　

2. of the reasons for the deletion of the two lifts, and whether there are no other alternative options;

   　

3. what effects the deletion of the two lifts will have on the disabled using the Central Library;

   　

4. what other facilities can replace the functions of the two lifts or remedy the inconvenience caused to the disabled using the Library; and

   　

5. whether the ASD's proposal is in breach of the provisions in the Disability Discrimination Ordinance (Cap. 487) governing the provision of facilities for the disabled?

　

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, on the basis of the information provided by the Urban Services Department, the answers to the Honourable HUI Yin-fat's question are as follows:

　

1. When preparing the architectural design of the Central Library, due consideration has been given to the needs of the physically handicapped, the visually and hearing impaired. The facilities which will be installed in the Central Library to cater for their special needs include:

　

1. The Library has four external and three internal lifts for public use. Another two are designated for staff use. All nine lifts are equipped for use by the physically handicapped and the visually impaired.

   　

2. To facilitate people with visual impairment to use the Library facilities, all the lifts in the Library will be provided with Braille buttons and a Cantonese-English PA system for the announcement of information concerning the direction of the lift, the floor number and the main facilities on the floor where the lift stops. The Braille system will also be adopted for all the signs and directional placards in the Library. To help people with low vision to identify floor locations, different colours will be used in carpet pattern and wall decoration for each floor. As for books and audio-visual equipment, optacon and TV magnifier, among others, will be specially provided for people with low vision.

   　

3. For the convenience of the disabled, toilets and drinking fountains designed for wheelchair-bound users and provided on each floor. In addition, special reading desks and computer tables are also provided on each floor for their use. To make the Library more accessible to the disabled, two parking spaces in the Library carpark will be reserved for people with a disability.

　

(b), (c) and (d)

　

The provision of two external lifts, one at the carpark and the other at the vicinity of the loading/unloading area, has been included in the original design of the Central Library. This aims at facilitating access by people with a disability, especially the wheelchair-bound who travel to the Library by vehicle. Around March and April this year, the former Urban Council decided to provide two additional external lifts, one in the east and the other in the west wing of the Library, to further improve accessibility for the public and people with a disability to the Library. The provision of these two lifts is not included in the original construction cost estimate. If the cost is to be reduced, one possible option is to delete this item. However, the special meeting of the Provisional Urban Council held on 8 August, 1997, Councillors finally decided to keep the plan for providing two additional lifts.

　

5. As mentioned above, the Architectural Services Department has given full consideration to the Disability Discrimination Ordinance when preparing the Library design to ensure that it fully meets the relevant requirements and has not breached any legal provisions.

　

BILLS

Resumption of Second Reading Debate

ELECTORAL AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 July 1997

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council will now resume the Second Reading debate on three bills. The first is the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill be read the Second time.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CLERK (in Cantonese): Electoral Affairs Commission Bill.

　

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1997

　

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 July 1997

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 be read the Second time.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CLERK (in Cantonese): Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997.

　

DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997

　

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 July 1997

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 be read the Second time.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CLERK (in Cantonese): Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997.

　

Council went into Committee.

　

Committee Stage of Bills

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council is now in Committee.

　

ELECTORAL AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses and schedules stand part of the bill.

　

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1, 21 and 24.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 2 to 20 and 22.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, first of all, I have to thank the Honourable Ronald ARCULLI and other members of the Bills Committee who have worked so hard to make the Bills Committee's work run speedily and smoothly. During the scrutiny of the bill, the Bills Committee put forward many suggestions and I will move amendments to the bill on the basis of these suggestions.

　

One of the amendments has not been discussed during the scrutiny. Madam Chairman, I am grateful to you for allowing me to move a motion to change the abbreviated form of the Electoral Affairs Commission in Chinese from the original "選委會" to "選管會". The purpose of this amendment is for the avoidance of any confusion that may arise from the name of the 800-strong Election Committee after its establishment in the future. The provisions affected by this purely technical amendment include clauses 2 to 20, clause 22, the heading below Part II, heading of clause 3, the heading below Part III, the headings of clauses 4 to 6, the heading below Part IV and the headings of clauses 10, 13, 15 and 16 as well as the heading below Part V.

　

Proposed amendments

　

Clause 2 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 4 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 5 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 6 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 7 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 8 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 9 (see Annex II)

Clause 10 (see Annex II)

Clause 11 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 12 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 14 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 15 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 16 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 17 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 18 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 19 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 20 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 22 (see Annex II)

　

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)

　

Schedule 2 (see Annex II)

　

Part II (see Annex II)

　

Part III (see Annex II)

　

Part IV (see Annex II)

　

Part V (see Annex II)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendments moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Clauses 2 and 3. Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that the Chinese text of the definition of "by-election" in clause 2(1) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This amendment is purely technical in nature.

　 Proposed amendments

　

Clause 2 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

　

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 2(1) and clause 3(5)(a) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

The spirit of my amendment is mainly to prohibit members of political parties from becoming members of the Electoral Affairs Commission (EAC). In fact, what kind of an EAC do we need? What characteristics would the public expect of the EAC? In my opinion, the EAC should possess two very important features. First, it has to be impartial, and second, it has to be politically neutral. The prerequisite of being impartial is, naturally, to be politically neutral. Without political neutrality, I think nobody will believe that this EAC is impartial in its decisions. These two points, therefore, form a very important principle of mine during the deliberation of the bill. And, throughout the course of deliberation, members of the Bills Committee all upheld stringency in all aspects as one of their principles.

　

As we all know, the election to be held next year will be an eye-catching event for the world, an indicator of confidence, and even a cornerstone of "one country, two systems" in practice. I thus think that it is highly sensible to apply strict criteria to the selection of EAC members. The bill stipulates clearly that we only need three members, including the chairman who is a Judge of the High Court, and two other members chosen from the community, and their terms of office may vary from three to five years. Therefore, we are not asked to identify 2 000 or 200 people from among the 6 million people in Hong Kong; only two people will be enough. It is not a large pond, but just a small brook, that we are looking for. The quantity of the water is not the point in question, as what is important is that the water must be pure. Therefore, it is highly important that the EAC should strictly adhere to political neutrality.

　

The Administration has been telling us that the bill already provides for a safety net. However, this is only the argument of the Administration. If there is already an all-inclusive safety net, why does the bill stipulate that members of the three-tier of representative government are not eligible to become members of the EAC? Later on, Members of the Bills Committee will move an amendment on the consensus they have reached that more categories of people should be included to supplement this so-called all-inclusive safety net.

　

As a matter of fact, our present attempt to further define who should not be eligible for appointment to the EAC will assist the Administration in making a right decision, and will enable it to avoid the possibility of any oversight.

　

My amendment concerns the so-called "members of political parties". Obviously, many political parties members are not actively engaged in the affairs of their respective political parties. In my opinion, if one fifth of the members of a political party are actively engaged in party activities, this political party can already be regarded as successful. The fact is that most political party members are actually inactive. Can inactive members of political parties be regarded as actively engaged in politics? Honourable Members may find it difficult to make a decision, and this is exactly where the grey area is. In case a member of the EAC is found to be a political party member, then great troubles will arise, whether he or she is actively or inactively engaged in the affairs of political party. The problem will be even more serious if political party membership is only investigated and confirmed after an appointment has been made. As the sayings go, "One should not go for meat and wine after becoming a bonze" and "One is not eligible to become a priest after marrying a wife". It is, therefore, only right and proper that after becoming a member of political parties, one should not be eligible to become a member of the EAC. Hence, my amendment is reasonable and sensible and its definition is also clear.

　

In fact, my judgment is that as the democratic political system in Hong Kong continues to progress, party politics will come to dominate the political development of Hong Kong. In very much the same way as demonstrations have become part of the culture of Hong Kong, political parties, too, have become part of our life in Hong Kong. Since a definition of "political organizations" has been incorporated in the Societies Ordinance, I reckon that this should also be reflected in the bill. The interpretation that I proposed is actually copied entirely from the Societies Ordinance. My ultimate goal is to ensure as much political neutrality as possible for the EAC so as to maintain its impartiality. I also hope that this bill can clearly define what kinds of people are not eligible to become members of the EAC.

　

Madam President, the election to be held next year will be an event of global concern and it is the wish of the general public of Hong Kong that it will be conducted according to a fair and just principle. It is essential to have a carefully selected, highly credible and flawless EAC, but without the incorporation of my amendment, it will be left with an extremely unworthwhile defect.

　

These are my remarks. Thank you, Madam President.

　

Proposed amendments

　 Clause 2 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, do you wish to speak?

　

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I wish to state the Government's stand on the amendment moved by the Honourable LAU Kong-wah.

　

The purpose of the said amendment is in fact to state clearly what persons or what categories of persons are not eligible for appointment to the Electoral Affairs Commission (the Commission). The main consideration of the Government is whether or not the appointment of such persons or such categories of persons will affect the neutrality of the Commission. For instance, since one fundamental responsibility of the Commission is to monitor and supervise the elections to the three-tiers of our representative government, the bill therefore specifies that a person will not be eligible for appointment to the Commission if he is a current member of any of the three-tier councils, or if he was once a member of them within the last four years.

　

Moreover, as Mr LAU Kong-wah has himself admitted, the bill already contains provisions of a general safeguard nature, stipulating that the Chief Executive shall not appoint anyone who is actively engaged in politics. As far as this is concerned, Mr LAU opines that these offer only a general safeguard which is not specific and detailed enough. But, the question is what is meant by specific and detailed? For what he has just mentioned, would that be somewhat redundant? For example, about a matter of degree which he referred to, should it stop only at the extent that he just mentioned? I think all these deserve our further consideration.

We firmly believe that with the safeguard provided for in the bill, the neutrality and impartiality of the Commission have already been ensured.

　

Therefore, we feel that there is no need for the bill to add in the provision proposed in Mr LAU's amendment. I urge Members to consider our points very carefully when deciding on this issue.

　

Thank you.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah, do you wish to reply?

　

　

MR LAU KONG WAH (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, there are subclauses a, b, c etc in clause 3(5) all specifying in great detail who are the persons not eligible for appointment as members of the Electoral Affairs Commission or to hold office as such. If the Secretary's point on a redundancy is really justified, why is it that clause 3(5)(c), that is, "...... in the opinion of the Chief Executive he is or has become actively engaged in politics", not put down as the sole condition? For, this condition is already all-embracing enough. If such a redundancy is not desired, all other provisions apart from (c) should be considered unnecessary. In fact, what has been done now is giving it "more precise definitions".

　

I propose amendment just to render assistance to the person who has the authority to make appointments by enabling him to know more clearly the conditions under which a person should be regarded as "actively engaged in politics". In fact, members of the Bills Committee have already exchanged their views on this question. It seems to be the view of some members that in case a person is only a "nominal" member of a political party and may not even have paid up his membership fee, then may be he cannot be regarded as actively engaged in politics. But, I do not think that this view is sound enough. Even though a person does not participate actively in the activities of a political party and nobody, not even the Chief Executive, knows of this membership, as long as he is a member of that political party. It will be very troublesome if such things are revealed only after he has been appointed to the Electoral Affairs Commission. Therefore, to me, the most important thing is that, we are to design a system right now, and we should not just leave it to the judgment of one person when the time comes. The establishment of such a system is very important.

　

Finally, in fact, insofar as public administration is concerned, we do sometimes put in place some very strict requirements. For example, we strictly require high-ranking government officials to declare their interests upon retirement; we impose strict requirements on the staff of the Examinations Authority as regards declaration of their interests; we even strictly require fellow Members declare of the interests of their spouses. Therefore, in the case of Electoral Affairs Commission members, I would say that there is every reason for us to be extremely strict with their appointment.

　

I hereby call upon my Colleagues to support this amendment, so as to demonstrate that we have very strict requirements with respect to the Electoral Affairs Commission, and that we are very demanding with respect to the appointments of its members.

　

These are my remarks. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I put the question to you and that is "That the proposed amendments put by Mr LAU Kong-wah be approved."

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of the definition of "Selection Committee" to clause 2(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

As briefly explained in my earlier speech, the Bills Committee considers that a member of the Selection Committee should not be appointed to the Commission. The proposed addition is to define "Selection Committee" as the Selection Committee referred to in the decision of the National People's Congress on the method for the formation of the first government and the first Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, adopted at the third session of the Seventh National People's Congress on 4 April 1990.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 2 (see Annex II)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, do you wish to speak?

　

(The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs indicated that he did not wish to speak)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (aa) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members. It is the view of the Bills Committee that a person who is or has been nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive should not be eligible for appointment to the Commission and should be so specified in the Bill.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, do you wish to speak?

　

(The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs indicated that he did not wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (ab) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members. It is the view of the Bills Committee that a person should not be eligible for appointment to the Commission if he is or has been a member of the Selection Committee.

　 Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (ac) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members. The Bills Committee takes the view that a person should not be appointed to the Commission if he is or becomes, or has been a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annexe I to the Basic Law.

　

Proposed amendment

　Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that paragraphs (c), (e) and (f) of clause 3(5) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. All these are technical amendments.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendments moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

　 Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (da) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

The Bills Committee opines that a person should not be considered for appointment to the Commission if he is or becomes a member of any congress, parliament, assembly or council, whether central or local, of any place outside Hong Kong. This serves to assure the public that the Commission is completely impartial and independent.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (db) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

The Bills Committee considers that a person is not suitable for appointment to the Commission if he is or becomes a member of the National Committee or a local committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　 Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (f)(ia) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

The reason has been stated in my earlier speech. This amendment seeks to specify that a person who has been nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive should not be appointed as a member of the Commission.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (f)(ib) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This amendment seeks to specify that a person who has been a member of the Selection Committee should not be a Commission member.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (f)(ic) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

This amendment seeks to specify that a person who has been a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law should not be a Commission member.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (f)(id) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

The Bills Committee considers that a person should not be eligible for appointment to the Commission if he has been a Member of the Executive Council or has been a Member of the former Executive Council. Paragraph (f)(id) specifically seeks to disqualify a Member of the Executive Council from being a member of the Commission.

　

I have given some of the reasons for these amendments. The Bill no longer disqualifies a Member of the Executive Council within the past four years immediately before the date of appointment from joining the Commission. The Administration explains that the change is not to restrict unnecessarily the pool of candidates for appointment to the Commission as all Members of the Executive Council are appointed. The Bills Committee is of the view that the impartiality of the Commission is of utmost importance and disagrees that disqualifying the former Members of the Executive Council, in the same way as members of the three-tier councils are disqualified, will unnecessarily restrict the pool of candidates for appointment as Commission members.

　

Madam Chairman, I urge Members to support the amendment.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (f)(ie) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

This amendment seeks to specify that a Member of the former Executive Council should not be a member of the Commission for the same reasons I have given a moment ago in moving the addition of Paragraph (f)(id).

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (g)(i) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

To ensure the complete integrity and impartiality of the Commission, the Bills Committee considers that a person is not suitable for appointment to the Commission if he has been a member of any congress or parliament, whether central or local, of any place outside Hong Kong within the four years immediately before the date of appointment.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraphs (g)(ii) and (iii) to clause 3(5) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

　

For the reasons I have given above, the Bills Committee considers it necessary to state clearly that a person who has been a member of the National Committee or a local Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference should not be eligible for appointment to the Commission.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　 Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that a new subclause (10) be added to clause 3, so as to require that the qualifications of all members of the committees under the Electoral Affairs Commission should be in line with the appointment qualifications of the members of the Commission itself. This is to ensure the neutrality and impartiality of the Commission.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 3 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Clauses 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 14, 18 and 19. Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam, I move that clauses 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 14, 18 and 19 be amended, as set out in the paper circularized to Members. These are all technical amendments.

Proposed amendments

　

Clause 4 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 5 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 7 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 8 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 11 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 12 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 14 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 18 (see Annex II)

　

Clause 19 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendments moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Clause 6. Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

　

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 6 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. The objective of this amendment is to prescribe that the Electoral Affairs Commission has the right to censure or reprimand. However, before the Commission censure or reprimand any person, it should do its best to contact that person and provide him with the opportunities to explain.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 6 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Clause 13. Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, in the light of the decision already taken on the Administration's amendments to replace "選委會" with "選委會", I would like your permission to revise the Chinese copy of my amendment for "選委會"to read "選委會", as set out in the paper which I have now tabled.

　

Madam Chairman, the Bills Committee takes the view that a member of the Commission, during his term of office or within four years of ceasing to be a member of the Commission, should be disqualified from becoming a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive, a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law, or a member of the Executive Council.

　

The Bills Committee believes that such a stringent restriction will enhance the integrity and impartiality of the Commission.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI, I grant you permission to revise the amendment without prior notice.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: I now move the addition of Paragraph (aa)(i) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members to disqualify a Commission member during his term of office from being nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive.

　

Proposed amendment

　

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI, do you wish to reply?

　

(Mr Ronald ARCULLI indicated that he did not wish to reply)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

　

(Members responded)

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

　

(No Member responded)

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

　

　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (aa)(ii) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members for the reasons I have given earlier, to disqualify a Commission member from becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (aa)(iii) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members to disqualify a Commission member from becoming a member of the Executive Council.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 13(1) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ia) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from being nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ib) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annexe I to the Basic Law.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ic) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from becoming a Member of the Executive Council.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 13(3) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 20 be amended so that the margin of population deviation can be reduced from the original 25% to 15%, and the reasons for this amendment have already been given earlier by the Administration.

Proposed amendment

Clause 20 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 2 to 20, and 22, as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 23.　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 23(2) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 23 (see Annex II) 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 23 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedules 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that the term "選委會", be amended as " 選管會", wherever it occurs in schedules 1 and 2. As I said earlier, the reason for this is to avoid any confusion with the title "選舉委員會" (Election Committee).

Proposed amendments

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

Schedule 2 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "ayes"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it. 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Schedule 1. Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): I move that Schedule 1 be further amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is also in line with the spirit of the amendments which I have just proposed, that is, to lay down strict requirements.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr LAU Kong-wah be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that part II of schedule 1 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move that Schedule 1 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This is a consequential amendment given that Members have agreed to add Paragraph (da) to clause 3(5), namely, that a person who is or becomes a member of any national, regional or municipal congress, legislature, assembly or council of any place outside Hong Kong is disqualified from appointment to the Commission.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II) 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN ( in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): The amended Schedule 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think that "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1997 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question on the motion to you and that is: That the following provisions be included in this legislation.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question on the motion to you: That the following provisions be included in this legislation.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (In Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The Provisional Council is now resumed.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bills

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,

the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill　

has passed through the Committee with amendments. I move that this bill be read the third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That

the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill

be read the third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "ayes"?

(Member responded) 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Treasury.

SECRETARY FOR TREASURY (in Cantonese): Madam President,

the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 and

the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 　

have passed through the Committee without amendment. I move that these two bills be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 and the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 be read the Third time and do pass.

Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

MOTION

PUBLIC BUS SERVICES ORDINANCE　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motion under the Public Bus Services Ordinance. Secretary for Transport.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, I hereby move the motion standing under my name in the Agenda.

Sections 26 to 32 of the Public Bus Services Ordinance stipulate the permitted returns to the public bus companies in an accounting year and other matters ancillary thereto. The permitted return shall be an amount equal to the percentage per annum specified in the franchise on the average net fixed assets of the public bus companies. The sections also lay down the ways under which the operating costs of the bus companies is computed and stipulate that the bus companies shall, upon the request of the Financial Secretary, provide information relevant to the public bus service operations.

The current policy on processing fare increase applications from the bus companies takes various factors into account, particularly the operating costs, revenues, performance of the bus companies and public acceptability; it does not seek to provide for a profit level based on a fixed percentage of the average net fixed assets of the bus companies. On the basis of this policy, we have stated clearly during the negotiations on the new franchise that the profit control scheme would not be incorporated for the bus companies.

There may be doubts that, once profit control is removed, bus companies may manage to seek exorbitant profits through fare increases. In fact, Madam President, at present, no bus companies except the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (1933) Limited (KMB) has any profit control mechanism written down in their franchises. As I have just mentioned, in processing fare increase applications, the Government will carefully consider a number of factors including the companies' financial condition , its quality of service, and the affordability of the public before submitting the proposal to the Executive Council for deliberation.

This mechanism has worked well in recent years. Bus fares have been kept at levels which are acceptable to the public; while bus companies can recover their costs, they are also able to secure reasonable but not excessive returns to maintain their incentive of continued investments and improved services. This mechanism is, of course, by no means perfect and the Government certainly has to keep it under review and make improvements. However, we can say that, in general, the existing mechanism of regulating bus fare adjustments can help us strike a balance between the interests of commuters and those of the bus companies.

Since no other bus companies have any profit control scheme written into their franchises, the KMB's new franchise, recently approved by the Chief Executive in Council to take effect on 1 September 1997, should not have any profit control mechanism either.

According to section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Service Ordinance, a franchise, shall, except where the Legislative Council by resolution excludes the application of sections 26 to 32, be subject to the relevant sections. It is, therefore, necessary to disapply sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 of the Public Bus Services Ordinance, while retaining the following sections:

1. Section 26, which defines the terms used in the sections that follow;
2. Section 26A, which specifies that the financial penalty levies against a bus company shall not be taken into account in ascertaining the operating costs or service related expenditure;
3. Section 30, which enables the government to specify the depreciation rate in respect of the fixed assets used or kept by the company for the purpose of or in connection with its franchise;
4. Section 32, which requires that the bus company shall, upon the request of the Financial Secretary, produce the books and statements of account and other information in respect of the public bus service operations.

Madam President, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the Bills Committee responsible for scrutinizing this motion. At the meeting on 15 August, they put forward many valuable views regarding how we should step up the monitoring of public bus services and improving the existing mechanism for scrutinizing fare increase applications. In the next few months, we shall work hard on these issues. We shall submit the results of our review the Panel on Transport once it is completed.

With these are my remarks, I beg to move the above motion. Thank you, Madam President. 　

The Secretary for Transport moved the following motion: 　

"That the franchise conferring the right on the Kowloon Motor Bus Company(1933) Limited to operate a public bus service on the routes specified in the Schedule of Routes (Kowloon Motor Bus Company) (No. 2) Order 1997 (L.N.394 of 1997) and in any subsequent order made by the Chief Executive in Council shall not, for the entire period of the franchise, be subject to sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 in Part V of the Public Bus Services Ordinance, be approved." 　

PRESIDENT (In Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the franchise conferring the right on the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (1933) Limited to operate a public bus service on the routes specified in the Schedule of Routes (Kowloon Motor Bus Company) (No. 2) Order 1997 (L.N. 394 of 1997) and in any subsequent order made by the Chief Executive in Council shall not, for the entire period of the franchise, be subject to sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 in Part V of the Public Services Ordinance, be approved.

Does any Member wish to speak? Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 8 August 1997, the House Committee set up a Subcommittee to study the resolution to be moved by the Secretary for Transport under section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Services Ordinance. As the chairman of the Subcommittee, I would like to report on our deliberations.

The purpose of the resolution is to seek the approval of the Provisional Legislative Council to exclude the profit control scheme from the new franchise granted by the Chief Executive in Council to the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (KMB). The subcommittee met once with the Administration's official to scrutinize the resolution. During the meeting, government's representatives provided further clarification and explanation on issues of concern to the Subcommittee.

Members of the Subcommittee are concerned that the proposed abolition of the KMB's profit control scheme might have adverse impacts on bus fares, and inquired whether there was any monitoring mechanism to ensure the effective operation of the KMB on one the hand, and the protection of commuters on the other. The Administration was of the view that any new bus franchises must seek a balance between satisfactory services and reasonable returns on investment. As regards the definition of "reasonable returns", the Administration advised that when making assessments, it would consider all kinds of information including the analysis conducted by the relevant financial institutions and other related professionals.

As regards the monitoring mechanism, the Administration explained that a "multi-level approach" had been adopted to monitor the performance of the franchisees. At the management level, the Chief Executive can, in accordance with the Public Bus Services Ordinance, appoint not more than two government officials to the Board of Directors of the franchisee concerned. These officials shall be entitled to attend the meetings of the franchisee and have access to materials concerning the affairs of the franchisee. The franchisee is also required to submit to the Transport Department a planning programme of its operations for the following five years. The Transport Advisory Committee (TAC) and the District Boards will be consulted on such a planning programme. Furthermore, regular meetings at the working level will be held between franchisees and the Transport Department to ensure quality of services.

On bus fares, the Administration advised that both the TAC and the Panel on Transport would be consulted before applications for fare increases were submitted to the Chief Executive in Council for approval; and factors such as operating costs and revenues, performance, public acceptability and so on would be taken into account when processing these applications. The Administration is also considering the need for expanding the membership and terms of reference of the TAC with a view to strengthening its monitoring role. The Administration undertakes to report back to the Panel in about three month's time.

Members are generally supportive of the resolution, but they have emphasized the need for setting up a monitoring mechanism to ensure the regulation of service quality and rates of fare increases of the KMB after the abolition of the profit control scheme.

These are my remarks. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish speak? Mr WONG Siu-yee.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance supports the Government's move to exempt the KMB from the profit control scheme in its new franchise. We are very happy that the Administration is willing to accept the motion moved by the former Legislative Council on 23 April 1997, which sought to exempt the KMB from the profit control scheme in its new franchise. The profit control scheme stipulated in section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Services Ordinance (Cap. 230) imposes a ceiling on the permitted returns of the KMB in an accounting year, and this ceiling is set at a certain percentage calculated on the basis of the average net fixed assets of the company in an accounting year. At present, the rate of return specified in the franchise of the KMB is 16%.

We reckon that the KMB's profit control scheme should be abolished for the following reasons. Firstly, since other franchised bus operators are not subject to a profit control scheme, for the sake of fairness, the Administration should not make the KMB an exception. Therefore, under the new franchise, the KMB should no longer not be subject to the restrictions of this scheme.

Secondly, the Administration should consider many other factors when processing fare increase applications from bus companies, particularly, operating costs, revenues, performance and public acceptability. It should not consider the profit level derived from a rate of returns calculated according to the average fixed assets of the bus company concerned. In other words, the profit control scheme as a yardstick for determining the rates of bus fare increases should be removed.

On the other hand, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance is also worried that after the abolition of the profit control scheme, will the Government lose its control in monitoring fare increases by the KMB? And also, will KMB be seeking hefty fare increases for those so-called profit-losing routes? Our worry is that the burden borned by the people may become aggravated. The Government has time and again stressed that the existing mechanism can already adequately monitor KMB's fare increases, one example being the Transport Advisory Committee (TAC), which will conduct public consultation on bus fare increases. However, we must not forget that the TAC is just an advisory body which does not have any power to veto fare increase applications. Therefore, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance very much hopes that a new mechanism can be put in place as soon as possible, so that the public will not have to pay exorbitant fares because of the abolition of the profit control scheme.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Wing-chan.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, bus services are playing an important part in the daily lives of the public in Hong Kong. The KMB alone has a daily passenger carrying capacity of 2.9 million passenger trips, representing nearly 30% of the total passenger trips made in Hong Kong every day. With the exception of some individuals, the public at large have to rely heavily on this mode of public transport. In Kowloon and the New Territories, the role of KMB services is even more significant. Its fare levels, efficiency, and quality of service all produce a direct impact on the livelihood of the general public.

On 31 of this month, the present franchise of KMB will expire. The Chief Executive in Council has already approved the renewal of KMB's franchise for a period as long as nine years and 11 months. The new franchise will cover 368 routes, and will be exempted from the profit control scheme. In fact, the profit control scheme has long been criticized for being a pretext used by KMB for fare increases in the past. Owing to its far-reaching effects, the new franchise should really strike a balance between "reasonable profits" for the KMB and "the interests of consumers".

Over the years, the KMB has made used of the profit control scheme, a "Sword of Imperial Sanction", to enable it to enjoy huge profits. Since under the profits control scheme, KMB's profits were linked with its average net fixed assets, so it was able to shift all risks to the public; not only this, by expanding its net assets it was also able to apply for fare increases despite huge profits. Now, it has been resolved that the profit control scheme should be excluded from the new franchise of the KMB. Since the profit control scheme is already outdated and cannot protect the interests of the public, the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) and the Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) do support this resolution. Of course, our DAB members will continue to speak on this issue later on.

The FTU is of the opinion that it was very unreasonable in the past for the Government to allow the KMB to reap profits at 16% of its average net fixed assets. In fact, times have changed, and the Government should carefully consider its performance, operating costs, revenue and public affordability when processing fare increase applications from the KMB. If a bus company does not operate well and fails to adhere to its scheduled frequency, and if its services are poor, the Government must scrutinize its application carefully or even turn down its application.

Now, after the profit control scheme is abolished, the Government should still regulate or monitor the levels of fare increases by the KMB, in order to ensure good quality of service. In the past, when the Government was trying to clarify the issue of providing the KMB with reasonable returns, it indicated that it had already considered a series of factors. But, in fact, it did not have to any objective and comprehensive assessment criteria that it could adhere to. Therefore, the Government should put in place an effective mechanism in order to step up its supervision and regulation of the public transport sector. On the one hand, there should be more transparency in the services of the public transport sector and on the other, it should maintain close assessment of KMB services. The Government should also try to introduce market competition so that bus operators would improve on their services and exercise self-restraint over the issue of fare increase. The Government must treat all public bus operators with impartiality, so as to provide consumers with more and better choices.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) has always fought for the abolition of the profit control scheme for the KMB, we are supportive of the Administration's move to delete the profit control scheme for the KMB when granting a new franchise to it. The reason for our support is that, in the past, the profit control scheme was virtually turned into a "profit assurance scheme" for utilities companies, under which they could maximize their profits by deliberately boosting their fixed assets. In the end, the public have to suffer and pay more. Although the government has already abolished the profit control scheme for the KMB, it is still stipulated in the terms of the new franchise that when the Chief Executive in Council deliberate on KMB fares, various factors, including reasonable returns for the KMB, may be taken into account. However, there is not any clear definition for reasonable returns. Mr John CHAN said on a public occasion last month that the 16% permitted return set in the past was actually a reasonable level of returns, and that, therefore even if the profit control scheme was abolished, the existing rates of profits and return should be maintained.

The DAB is worried that if the senior management of the KMB thinks in this way, future fare increases may be beyond the affordability of the public. The DAB would like to reiterate that reasonable returns should not be regarded as guaranteed profits. In case, at least, the KMB incurs losses as a result of poor management and unwise investments, the losses should not be borne by the public.

As regards the mechanism for setting the fares charged by public bus companies, the DAB has opposed at the sittings of the former Legislative Council that bus fares should be determined by the legislature. However, we also insist that an independent and open body made up of members with professional expertise should be formed for this purpose. We can see that many advanced countries have set up independent authorities to monitor public transport services, and results have been very satisfactory. For this reason, the DAB proposes to expand the Transport Advisory Committee and to have its statutory role enhanced, so that it will be able to determine the fares charged by the public transport operators and monitor their services.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport, do you wish to reply?

(The Secretary for Transport indicated that he did not wish to reply)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (In Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Motions. Two motions with no legal effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies. Other Members will each have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Rule 37 of the Rules of Procedure, I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First motion, Mr LO Suk-ching.

ASSISTING HONG KONG'S FARMING AND FISHING INDUSTRIES 　

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed and set out under my name on the Agenda.

Madam President, in the wake of economic development in Hong Kong, the local agricultural and fisheries industries are gradually declining. Our emphasis has been put wholly on how to develop Hong Kong into a financial centre, how to develop its industries, and how to expand its services sector. As for the agricultural and fisheries industries, people seem to think that they are simply not worthy of any attention at all. In the case of those who still show some occasional concern, they too lament their own helplessness, saying that the decline of these sunset industries is really an irreversible trend caused by the cycles of economics. There are even some who think that the complete vanishing of these industries in Hong Kong should be no cause for regret at all.

However, despite the small proportion which the agricultural and fisheries industries occupy in the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Hong Kong, their significance to the people's livelihood and thus their contributions to our society should not be ignored; non-staple primary food produce for our daily consumption constitutes a heavy weighting in the compilation of the Consumer Price Index (A). Following the typhoon attack last month, the prices of vegetables went up, and inflation consequently soared upwards by 6%. This shows how great the effect of primary produce is in terms of inflation. If we rely entirely on import to supply the agricultural and fisheries products we need, we will put ourselves in a rather unstable or even dangerous situation which is not conducive to our livelihood. On the other hand, if we can retain a certain proportion for the agricultural and fisheries industries in our economy, we will be able to stabilize prices, and ensure the quantity, quality and sanitation standards of farming and fisheries products up to a certain extent. And, when there is a shortage of import, local production will be able to provide timely relief to market needs, thus safeguarding the people's livelihood to a certain extent. For a long time, the Mainland has been providing us with a steady supply of non-stable agricultural and fisheries produce. This has been a long-standing policy of the Central Government towards Hong Kong in the past. However, with the implementation of economic reforms and market-oriented policies in the Mainland, we can no longer expect China to maintain such a policy of "steady supply at low prices". Therefore, if we do not want to be controlled by others in terms of import prices of non-staple agricultural and fisheries produce, we have to maintain a certain level of production to satisfy market needs and stabilize prices. Moreover, our high-quality produce can also push the Mainland to upgrade the quality of the produce which it exports to us.

Madam President, let us take a closer look at our agricultural and fisheries industries to see whether or not they are really worthless. The answer is no. Last year, local catches amounted to 200 000 tonnes, valued at over $2.1 billion. Besides being sold locally, part of the catches are exported to neighbouring places such as Guangdong, Nanhai, Fujian, Taiwan and Japan. For our consumption of marine fish, 70% are supplied by local catches. In 1995, 840 tonnes of vegetables, some 7 000 pigs and 260 tonnes of poultry were consumed every day. Local farms supplied 30% of the vegetables, about 22% of the poultry and 8% of the pigs mentioned just now. The total value of local primary produce in 1995 stood at over $1.2 billion.

Madam President, I would like to raise a question. Have the agricultural and fisheries industries of Hong Kong really failed to make a greater contribution to our economy? My answer is no. The agricultural and fisheries industries of Hong Kong still have potentials for development, but all will depend on whether or not there is any source of assistance from a long-term policy. Regrettably, the former British Hong Kong Administration has failed to draw up any forward-looking policies for these industries and simply let them run their own course. Worse still, it even put in place some public and economic policies which directly or indirectly ruined the development of these industries. The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should now formulate appropriate policies to promote the development of the agricultural and fisheries industries according to Article 119 of the Basic Law.

(I) Fisheries Industry

Since the mid-1970s, the fisheries industries of Hong Kong have experienced drastic changes. Because of excessive exploitation of marine resources, coupled with the effect of large-scale infrastructural projects and environmental pollution, the marine ecology of Hong Kong and Guangdong coastal waters has been damaged seriously, thus leading to a shortage of marine resources in these coastal waters. Fishermen who fish along the coastal waters by using small horsepower vessels have been seriously affected. If they do not want to cease their business, they will have to make a change to mariculture, or try to take out loans to buy large mechanized vessels for deep-sea fishing.

1. Mariculture industry

At present, there are about 1 700 operators in the mariculture business in Hong Kong, scattered around 26 mariculture zones along the coast. They have never received any assistance from the Government, and, like those fishermen operating in coastal waters they too have been affected in recent years by the pollution caused by infrastructural projects and partially treated sewage. Since they seldom receive any compensation, it has proved difficult for them to restore their production to any sizeable level.

2. Replacement of deoxygenated layer

At present, the location of a mariculture raft cannot be altered without permission. However, in two or three years' time, the layer of sludge suspended in the water under a raft will become deoxygenated and thus prove unfavourable for mariculture. So, I propose that the Government should allow the relocation of a mariculture raft once every three years and assist fishermen to pump away the layers of deoxygenated sludge so as to revitalize the mariculture environment. It is most desirable for the Government to allow a mariculture operator to set up two mariculture zones, A and B, which he can use on rotation. Whenever the water quality of zone A becomes bad because of red tide attacks or seabed dredging, the raft can be towed to zone B for operation. And, about three years later, when the marine ecology of zone A is restored, the raft can then be towed back to zone A.

3. Enhancement of scientific research and technological support

Over the years, the Agriculture and Fisheries Department has never offered any help to mariculture operators on how they can maintain and boost their output. However, since it is very difficult for individual operators to research into technical improvements and other related technological areas, assistance from the Government is imperative. I propose that the Government should allocate more funds to enhance the research on the mariculture industry. In the long-run, the mariculture industry of Hong Kong may as well extend itself to the coastal regions of Guangdong and Fujian so as to make good use of the marine resources there. That way, they can operate on the basis of "shop at the front and factory at the back", a pattern currently adopted by land-based industries. By making good use of quality fries cultivated in Hong Kong, our mariculture technology, management skills, capitals and sales networks, we can actually start with Hong Kong as a base in our attempt to develop our mariculture industry along the coast of China. This is no wild imagination, for some mariculturists of Hong Kong have already started to engage themselves in joint ventures along the coast of Guangdong.

4. Cultivation of marine resources

The Government should conduct more research and assess the damage done to the marine ecology by infrastructural projects and sewage. It should also implement some schemes with the aim of revitalizing the marine environment and cultivating more marine resources. It this connection, expediting an artificial reef plan is a pressing priority. In the long term, the Government should allocate more funds for the purpose of studying local marine ecology, so that positive proposals for the development of the fisheries industry of Hong Kong can be worked out.

5. Problem of deckhands

Since nowadays in Hong Kong, fewer and fewer people wants to work in the fisheries industry, labour shortage has become a frequent source of frustration experienced by local fishermen and thus restricted their productivity. It is estimated that about 7 000 deckhands of this kind are required in Hong Kong. I hope that at this time when Hong Kong is reunified with the motherland, the Government of the SAR will negotiate with Guangdong as soon as possible, so that the quota could be increased. It is also hoped that the specified scope of duties for deckhands can be extended beyond deep-sea fishing only.

6. Development of ocean fishing

There are two most essential resources in Hong Kong, namely, people and the sea. But, Hong Kong has yet to fully utilise its marine resources, for our harbour-oriented economy has not led to a corresponding development of the fisheries industries. People always have a misconception that since Hong Kong is so small and so densely populated, there is not much room for the development of the fisheries industry. What is more, a mere mention of the fisheries industry will lead people to conjure up pictures of Hong Kong as a tiny fishing village. We must note that ocean fishing will provide a lot of development prospects for the local fisheries industry, only that this would require a lot of determination and strong assistance on the part of the Government.

1. The foreign relationship aspect

   To begin with, local fisherman operating in the high seas are now faced with competition from the fishing fleet of neighbouring regions and countries. Coastal nations have one after another designated their 200-mile economic waters zones and they have put in place protectionist fishing policies, thus adding to the difficulties experienced by our ocean fishing fleet. The rising awareness of marine environmental protection has placed fishing in international waters under futher restrictions. And, sometimes, our fishing vessels may be detained for entering the territorial waters of other nations by accident, or for breaking fishery co-operation agreements, thus requiring our sovereign power to negotiate for their release. In this particular aspect, if we are to develop ocean fishing, we should reach bilateral fishing agreements with the governments concerned, or at least reach non-governmental co-operation agreements with fishermen of other countries. In the past, it was very hard to urge the British Hong Kong Administration and British Government to do so. It is hoped that after the reunion, the SAR Government will assist our fishermen in solving these problems.

2. Encouraging the construction of fishing vessels

   At the same time, the Government should give encouragement and render assistance to those fishermen who want to construct ocean-going fishing vessels or to procure additional facilities. The Government should provide strong assistance to fishermen in terms of financing. At present, the lending capitals of the "Fisheries Development Loan Fund" amount to $7 million only; this is grossly insufficient. Two loan applications have just been approved, with $3 million is granted to each application, making up a total of $6 million. Following this, the fund is almost exhausted. At current prices, a deep-sea fishing vessel of a length of more than thirty metres will cost about $5 million to $10 million. If interests for boat construction loans are charged at the same expensive rate, as personal loans in general, at 5% per annum, for example, a loan tenure of just four years will require a total repayment of $7.5 million. Such a burden is quite beyond the means of the fishermen.

3. Fishing port facilities

   At present, Hong Kong does not even have a fishing port to provide repairing service and unloading for ocean fishing vessels. What is more, fishing vessels measuring longer than 100 feet which want to enter typhoon shelters are subject to numerous restrictions. What has the Government to offer to our fishing fleet? If we want to develop our ocean fishing fleet, we will have to consider the idea of building more facilities and implementing the policies concerned.

   To sum up, in order to develop ocean fishing, the Government should enhance the training of personnels who can master the techniques of navigation, engineering technology, communications, trawling, storage of fish, processing of marine products and so on. It should also encourage the people to invest in constructing fishing vessels; improve navigational and communications facilities; upgrade fishing gears; develop new fishing styles; enhance experimental research on fisheries; develop fish farms; expand overseas fisheries bases and strengthen sales outlets for marine products.

(II) Agriculture

Arable lands account for 7.2% of the total area of Hong Kong, but most of them have been abandoned. The development of new towns in the New Territories has gradually eroded the arable lands in Hong Kong. Because of the poor maintenance of irrigation systems, a lot of arable lands can neither be irrigated nor drained, and have thus become derelict. In Hong Kong where land resources are so valuable, it is very regrettable to see such a state of affairs. Twenty years ago, the Agriculture and Fisheries Department started to provide ploughing services to help farmers redevelop fallow lands, but the results were not very satisfactory. The main reason is that the problem of irrigation has not been solved and that the Government has not provided any active assistance to the development of agriculture. The infrastructural facilities provided by the Agriculture and Fisheries Department have been minimal.

1. Wholesale markets for flowers

The profits derived from farming flowers in Hong Kong are very high. However, owing to the lack of active support in the past, there has been a severe shortage of flower markets in Hong Kong. About fifty years ago, after the fresh flower wholesale market at Boundary Street was reconstructed to become the Fa Hui Park, the wholesale market has been relocated to the road side outside the Park. Even now, there is still no permanent site for the flower wholesale sector. I propose that the Government should allocate land for the construction of a wholesale flower market. 　

2. Plan for the control on livestock wastes 　

For the poultry and livestock industry, since the implementation of the livestock wastes control scheme in 1994, a great number of pig and chicken farms have had to close down. Now, only about 800 such farms still remain, which means that around 70% to 80% of the farms have had to cease business. This situation has been caused by the 50:50 disposal standard, which farmers find very hard to meet. Therefore, the Government should relax its control. It should assist the development of livestock keeping zones, and centralize the processing of livestock wastes so that costs could be lowered while the goal of environmental protection could be achieved. 　

3. Appropriate relaxation of foreign labour importation 　

Farming industries for poultry and livestock and the like are obnoxious in nature. Very few local workers want to join these industries. The failure of the Employees Retraining Board to retrain workers for the pig-keeping industry is a very good example. In order to solve the labour shortage problem experienced by the livestock industry, we should increase the quota of foreign labour importation appropriately.

(III) A functional constituency seat for the agricultural and fisheries industries in the Legislative Council 　

Lastly, in view of the importance of the agricultural and fisheries industries, I urge the SAR Government to add a functional constituency seat for the agriculture and fisheries industries in new Legislative Council, which could then assist the Government in formulating appropriate policies for these industries.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO, please stop speaking now. 　

Mr LO Suk-ching moved the following motion: 　

"That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to formulate a long-term farming and fishing policy, so as to support the development of farming and fishing industries in the territory." 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is "That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to formulate a long-term farming and fishing policy, so as to support the development of farming and fishing industries in the territory." 　

Council shall now proceed to a debate. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr LAU Wong-fat. 　

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, economic restructuring, high land prices, shortage of labour, as well as abundant and cheap supplies of agricultural and fisheries produce from the Mainland have all adversely affected the local agricultural and fisheries industries, thus plunging them into difficulties and causing them their decline. This is indeed a case which warrants our concern. 　

It is not healthy for a place to rely totally on other places for the supply of the agricultural produce it needs. Therefore, we must plan ahead, and we should not leave the agricultural and fisheries industries entirely on their own, for this would put our food supplies and food prices entirely under external control. 　

Despite the rapid development and increasing urbanization of Hong Kong, our agricultural and fisheries industries are still playing a useful role, particularly in providing us with quality produce. From this, we can see that for as long as we can identify a correct approach and back it up with policy support from the Government, our agricultural and fisheries industries can still have bright prospects, despite the many unfavourable factors standing in their way. 　

The Government has obviously failed to give these industries the high degree of attention which they deserve. The Government should formulate long-term policies with far-sighted vision, so as to help these industries. In particular, it should enhance its support in respect of technological improvements and economic efficiency. It should also take proactive steps to open more mariculture zones, where the quality of water is to be placed under strict control. Moreover, it should actively promote the agricultural land rehabilitation scheme. Most important of all, the Government should provide more financial assistance to these industries by offering easily available concessionary loans to people who wish to join these industries. That way, we will be able to revive our agricultural and fisheries industries. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui. 　

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, on the issue of how to assist Hong Kong's farming and fisheries industries, I would like to focus on the problem of deckhands. 　

In recent years, Hong Kong fishing vessels engaged in fish capture have been facing a shortage of deckhands. In the past, whole families of fishermen used to live on dwelling boats and shed houses, and were always ready for fish capture voyages. This provided the labour and support required by the fish capture industry. Over the past twenty years, fishermen have gradually moved to live on land, and most of their children have had the chance to receive formal education. As a result, the children of many fishermen, after attaining a high level of literacy and professional training, have become reluctant to engage in fish capture with their parents. They have chosen to earn their living on land instead, thus leading to a shortage of new blood for the fish capture industry. What is more, the prosperous economic development of Hong Kong, which provides better employment opportunities in large numbers, has lured a lot of experienced fishermen to take up various occupations on land, such as sea-land transportation, cargo ship loading/unloading and shipping transfer and so on. 　

The general labour shortage in Hong Kong has aggravated the problem of labour shortage for the fish capture industry. Many vessel owners have failed to obtain sufficient deckhands. It seems that the Labour Department cannot be of much help to them. 　

Fortunately, the policy of opening and reforms adopted by China has provided a timely supply of labour to fishermen in Hong Kong. "Inland deckhands", as fisheries workers from China are referred to, are able to meet the demand of local fishermen. After a hard struggle staged by fishermen associations of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong and the Guangdong authorities finally reached an agreement in 1995. The British Hong Kong Administration eventually allowed 3 500 Mainland deckhands to work in Hong Kong waters. Their scope of work is limited to sales of catches, allowing them to supplement daily provisions, repair of machinery and shelter from winds and so on. They are not permitted to stay in Hong Kong for more than seven days. Moreover, these "transit deckhands" have also reached a tacit agreement with vessel owners that they are not allowed to go ashore unless they have to sell fish at markets. The entry of these deckhands into Hong Kong is to be of a stopover nature only, and they have to report to the Immigration Department for each entry and departure. So far, no offences or crimes have been recorded in relation to fishing vessels entering Hong Kong waters with Mainland deckhands. 　

When the agreement was reached in 1995, only 1 500 fishing vessels registered their demand for deckhands, but, at that time, about 1 000 fishing vessels were out of Hong Kong for fish capture and could not return in time for registration. At present, there are some 4 000 fishing vessels in Hong Kong. It is estimated more than 7 000 deckhands are required. The current quota is thus obviously insufficient. When the policy on Mainland deckhands was first introduced, only fishing vessels of over 25 metres long were entitled to a share of the quota. Therefore, other small- and medium-sized fishing vessels, delivery boats and mariculture farms were not entitled to that. Because of labour shortage, fishery production in Hong Kong has been seriously hindered. As a result, the people have to bear high fish prices. 　

With the return of the sovereignty over Hong Kong to China, those livelihood issues which were neglected because of Sino-British disputes should now be given the attention they deserve. I very much hope that the Government of the Hong Kong SAR can appreciate the serious labour shortage encountered by local fishermen, and conduct negotiations with the Guangdong authorities as soon as possible, with a view to increasing the quota for Mainland deckhands, so that all licensed fishing vessels in Hong Kong having registration accounts in the Mainland, be they large or small, can have a share of the quota. This will relieve fishermen of their worries and help them concentrate on production. This will, undoubtedly, greatly benefit the development of the fisheries industry of Hong Kong. Madam President, I want to stress that there is an obvious difference between Mainland deckhands and imported labour in general. The reason is that the former's scope of duties is basically limited to Chinese waters and usually, they are not allowed to land and will not take up our housing, medical and social welfare resources. Most importantly, it must be admitted that very few local workers are willing to work as deckhands. Therefore, the increase in the deckhand quota will not affect the local employment market. 　

Madam President, the recent large-scale police operations to round up "illegal workers" working on fishing vessels have seriously affected the normal operation of our fishermen. In most of these prosecution cases, the workers concerned are all registered as deckhands in China. They are neither "illegal workers" nor "illegal immigrants". I urge that before a new agreement on "deckhand" quota is reached, the Government should immediately terminate these operations which have caused disruption to the normal operation of fishermen. 　

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam. 　

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am not a fisherman. But over the past 10 years, I have been working for them. Fishermen in Hong Kong bring us 190 000 tonnes of catches every year, entertaining 70% of our marine fish consumption. Seafood has become an integral part of our life. While we enjoy our seafood, has it ever occurred to us that fishermen are now struggling desperately for their survival? 　

In recent years, the industries and commerce of Hong Kong have been advancing incessantly towards modernisation. The infrastructural development, reclamation and seabed projects like sand and mud dredging which accompany this process of modernization have seriously degraded marine ecology, making it hard for inshore fishermen to earn their living. In fact, the fishing industry in Hong Kong is now facing a destructive threat. Although Hong Kong has started out as a fishing port, its fishing industry has now become a sunset industry. This had really given us cause for regret and is very ironical.

On the other hand, the economic reforms in China have enabled fishermen in the Mainland to hoard up enough capital for the purpose of developing the fishing industry. The regional authorities along the coast have also actively offered huge logistic support to fishermen by supplying them with a lot of non-staple food, raw ice, fuel and so on. And, with cheap labour and their proximity to fishing grounds, fishing industry in the Mainland has been able to enjoy much reduced costs yet enhanced competitiveness. This has exerted even greater pressure on the fishermen in Hong Kong. 　

Fishermen in Hong Kong who want to fish in Chinese waters have to tackle two problems. First, for the sake of protecting marine resources, some inshore Chinese waters with abundant fish resources are closed to fishing activities during certain seasons of the year. Second, the names of the crew of Hong Kong fishing vessels must be registered with the Chinese authorities before such vessels can fish in Chinese waters, and the fishermen concerned must unload part of their catches at the ports of China. 　

These unfavourable factors have reduced the scope of survival for the inshore fishermen of Hong Kong. Therefore, the only way out is to develop ocean fishing, which requires advanced communication systems, sonar facilities, mechanized trawling facilities, the latest satellite positioning systems and so on. Without any support and assistance from the Government, it will be impossible to develop the ocean fishing industry. 　

The fact is that I have been receiving endless complaints from fishermen, who grumble that the Government has been extremely unconcerned with the difficulties they confront. One example is that when a fisherman applies for a low-interest loan from the Fisheries Department, even though his past records are very good, it will still take more than one and a half years before his application could be approved, and in the meantime, the effect of inflation alone will have increased his costs considerably. In the case of an ocean fishing vessel of 1 000 horsepower, for example, for a fishing voyage of 20 to 30 days, the costs will be about $200,000. It follows that an average monthly catch worth more than $300,000 will be required for the fisherman to reach a break even point. 　

Since the procedures governing an application for a low-interest loan from the Government are very complicated and the terms and conditions are harsh, most fishermen have no alternative but to borrow money from banks and financial companies at high interest. This increases the costs borne by fishermen, thus adding to their difficulties.

At present, it is undeniable that more and more young people are reluctant to join the fishing industry, the operation of which is still very traditional and conservative. Modernization of the trade and the employment of Mainland dockhands have thus become pressing priorities for the fishing industry. This will also enable fishermen to maintain their living. However, at present, the quota governing the employment of Mainland deckhands can hardly meet the demand of the fishing industry. So, administratively and technically, the Government must put in place some specific and efficient arrangements to deal with the quota allocation of Mainland deckhands, so as to benefit vessel owners in general, small- and medium-sized vessel owners in particular. 　

The fishing industry is the last remaining self-supporting industry in Hong Kong. The decline of this industry will not only lead to soaring seafood prices but will also affect the prospects of some related businesses on land. For example, fishing gears suppliers, the shipbuilding industry, the machinery industry, fuel suppliers, the refrigerating industry and even the non-staple food and catering industries on land will all be affected. The places likely to be worst-hit are the Southern District of Hong Kong, Shau Kei Wan, Tai Po, Sai Kung and so on. Businesses on land will also be indirectly affected. Therefore, as far as this problem is concerned, the Government cannot always use non-intervention as a pretext for failing to take action. If the Government would continue leaving things as they are, it will in fact be behaving like a person who just casually throws out one single life buoy to a whole lot of people struggling desperately in the rough sea. 　

Indeed, we can no longer allow the fishing industry to remain in its traditional ways of operation, nor can we force the younger generations to join this traditional occupation. Therefore, it has become an unshirkable responsibility and a pressing priority for the Government to develop a modernized fishing industry and implement totally new policies to assist people to join this new trade. 　

Madam President, with these words, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, though the number of people involved in the agriculture and fisheries industries in Hong Kong is not very big, the contributions of the trade to local economy are still substantial. In 1985, the total output value of the agriculture and fisheries industry was $1.2 billion at the prices of that year, and this was increased to $1.6 billion by 1994. Notwithstanding this, however, the Hong Kong Government has all along rendered very little assistance towards the development of the agriculture and fisheries industries. What the Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) has provided are just infrastructural and support services, such as irrigation and drainage systems, new farming techniques, development proposals and so on. On the other hand, the costs of production for farmers have increased since the implementation of the livestock waste control scheme, thus leading to a decrease in livestock supply in recent years. The Hong Kong SAR Government should consider the idea of providing technical support to farmers regarding waste disposals, such as the installation of septic tanks and so on. Furthermore, farmers, especially those in the Northwest New Territories, are frequently battered by rainstorms and floods in summer, and severe damage has been inflicted on their agricultural produce and livestocks. The Government should really take up this matter seriously. In fact, this issue seems to cast a complementing effect on the motion on flooding which I am going to move later on. However, I must say that this is merely a coincidence and I have not had any previous agreement with Mr LO. Some people may think that we are trying to create an impact for our allies in the New Territories, but this is simply not the case. 　

As regards the fisheries industry, it should be noted that marine fish are one of the most important sources of primary produce for Hong Kong. The fishing population is estimated at 21 600 and there are about 1 550 licensed mariculturists operating in designated mariculture zones. In recent years, however, the fisheries industry has been plunged into considerable difficulties, largely due to the aggravation of environmental pollution, while mariculture zones are frequently affected by red tide and other forms of pollution. Worse still, fishing folks who operate in the high seas may occasionally enter the territorial waters of other countries inadvertently, and one recent example is that several fishermen have been detained by the Philippines Government and may even face prosecution because of this. I think both the SAR Government and the Chinese Foreign Ministry should try to help these fishermen. What is even more important is that the SAR Government should raise the awareness of local fishing folks of the boundaries of territorial waters of other countries and advise them to observe the international conventions on the fisheries industry.

In short, the SAR Government should consider the following points when it is formulating long-term agriculture and fisheries policies. 　

Firstly, environmental protection policies should be deliberated in conjunction with agriculture and fisheries policies. Communications between the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) and the AFD should be strengthened. The EPD should take into account the practical difficulties faced by the agriculture and fisheries industries when it is formulating environmental protection policies. 　

Secondly, the Government should encourage university research centres to conduct more researches on ways of increasing the productivity of the agriculture and fisheries industries, such as the manufacture of fertilizers, insecticides and feeds for livestock and fish and so on. 　

Thirdly, the Government should expedite actions on improving the drainage systems of the New Territories so as to reduce the adverse effects of flooding on farmlands and fish ponds. 　

Fourthly, the Government could adopt a more flexible approach to deal with the importation of labour for the agriculture and fisheries industries because at present they are suffering from an increasingly acute manpower shortage. 　

Fifthly, the Government should provide technical and financial assistance to develop ocean fishing. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

　

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Liberal Party supports the motion today. We agree that the Government should formulate a long-term agricultural and fisheries policy. Regarding this, we have three specific points to make. 　

First, as regards the fisheries industry. On the existing low-interest loan scheme offered by the Government for financing fishing vessels, we are of the view that the eligibility criteria should be relaxed. As we understand it, under the existing loan scheme, the fishing vessel of an applicant must meet some specific requirements, and loan approval is based on the size and functions of the vessel, and on whether it is used for fish capture. Madam President, when we talk about the fisheries industry today, we should not just focus on fish capture or mariculture alone. Should fish transportation be regarded as ancillary to the fisheries industry even if it does not concern with fish capture and mariculture? I think the answer should be "yes". In fact, nowadays, many Hong Kong industries such as the manufacturing industry has relocated their production plants to Mainland China. Though their Hong Kong offices are just involved in the import and export of goods, this has not affected Hong Kong's status as a base for exporting industrial products. We know that as a result of pollution and excessive fish capture in inshore areas, some fishermen have to go to the seas far away for fish capture. But, is fish capture necessarily the sole objective of a fishing vessel which makes a voyage to the far-off seas? In many Southeast Asian countries, or even in countries near the Indian Ocean, there may be places suitable for mariculture. But, they may not allow Hong Kong people to operate mariculture business there because these countries want to protect their own resources. So, even if the fishermen of Hong Kong do not capture fish, but simply buy fish from other countries and transpsort bring them back to Hong Kong in their vessels, what is wrong about that? I opine that this is also one way of developing the fisheries industry. Therefore, when the Government is processing loan applications from fishermen, it should not limit its consideration merely to the fish capturing capability of such vessels. I am of the view that those people who purchase fish from other countries and transport them back to the Hong Kong are also contributing to the development of our fisheries industry. 　

Second, we maintain that the Government should also consider the idea of devoting resources to the development of artificial reefs as a means of maintaining the supply of fish. As we all know, excessive fish capturing will affect the reproductive capacity of fish. In fact, many precedents have shown that the installation of a well-designed artificial reef on the seabed will create a good environment conductive to fish reproduction, and it has been demonstrated by concrete evidence that this will help increase the quantity of fish reproduced in the location concerned. Research done by some countries has even revealed that we can create an artificial reef simply by depositing a vehicle tyre upon the seabed. It may not be as simple as this in reality. But, since there are so many construction wastes, and so much concrete in Hong Kong, is it possible for us to make use of these materials to construct some artificial reefs in a particular location? I think this will make our seabed more conducive to fish reproduction.

Third, as regards agriculture. I think that, very much unlike the fisheries industry, agriculture does not only involve the question of support. We have, therefore, some reservations about the term "support" as used in the motion. We do feel that the agricultural industry in Hong Kong is indeed on the decline, and such a decline is as inevitable as the shift of some non-sophisticated industries to other countries or Mainland China. The reasons for such a decline include high wages and high land prices in Hong Kong; and, what makes the agricultural industry most different from the fisheries industry is that the former has to take up land, which is the most valuable form of resources in Hong Kong. So, we should not over-simplify the situation by saying that we have to preserve agriculture and reserve arable lands for the purpose, because this may not be in line with policy of making the most efficient use of land in Hong Kong. Instead, if the farmers of some unsophisticated, and labour- and land-intensive types of agricultural produce want to move their operations to the Mainland, we should let them do what they like. We should support or preserve the farming of some up market agricultural produce which requires high technology, such as the farming of precious flowers and some greenhouse vegetables similar to those Japanese imports sold at our supermarkets. These are highly profitable commercial crops, and if we devote more resources to them, we will be able to increase the yield per square foot or per acre just by using a very small amount of land. I think this is better than simply encouraging agricultural operations or preserving arable land, because this will enable us to make full use of our limited resources. 　

Of course, conclusively speaking, apart from these three points, I do have other opinions. But, I am just mentioning these three points only. I hope the Government would consider my suggestions. 　

With these remarks, I support motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NGAN Kam-chuen. 　

MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, vegetables and meat are the major non-staple foods of the people of Hong Kong and the prices of vegetables, in particular, would affect inflation rate. Let us look at the Consumer Price Index for July released last week as an example: the series of downpours in July have pushed up vegetable prices by as much as 50% to 60%, and led to an inflation rate of 6.5% for that month, representing an increase of 1.1% over the rate of June. From this, we can see the close relationship between the supply of vegetables and the people's livelihood. 　

The 1996 statistics show that the people of Hong Kong consume about 890 tonnes of rice, 940 tonnes of vegetables, 7 540 pigs, 360 cattle, 270 tonnes of poultry and 1 680 tonnes of fruit every day. Of all these, 47% are imported from China. However, local farms are still able to supply 26% of the vegetables, 23% of the live poultry and 7% of the live pigs required by the local people. This shows that local farms still possess a certain degree of productivity and their contributions towards the stabilization of non-staple foods supply to Hong Kong cannot be denied.

Some have even thought that since most of the non-staple foods which we need can be imported from China, there is no need for Hong Kong to retain its farming and fishing industries. But, has it ever occurred to them that mainland supplies may decrease as more and more rural population move to the cities to look for jobs consequent upon the country's policy of reform and opening? Therefore, Hong Kong should get prepared beforehand, and support the local farming and fisheries industries, so as to ensure a steady supply of non-staple foods. 　

The farming and fisheries industries have made great contributions to the local economy and people's livelihood in the past. But the effect of economic restructuring has cast great limitations on their development. In particular, under the former colonial administration, the industries were not given any attention at all. The colonial government had not given any direct subsidies to the local farming and fisheries industries, nor did it seek to protect them from the impact of market forces. Although the Government has provided the industries with some infrastructural and technical support services, these have not been enough. The reason is that without a long-term policy on agriculture and fisheries, the Government has only resorted to a piece-meal approach to the problems. 　

In addition, Government departments have all along clung to a mentality of "minding their own business". They only bother to finish their own share of the work, and neglect the need for co-ordination with other departments. For example, there has been a lack of co-ordination between the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau and the Economic Services Bureau, and this has caused unnecessary frustration among farmers. Take the livestock and poultry industry as an example. On the ground that livestock wastes would cause pollution to the environment, the Government imposed the livestock waste control scheme in 1994, requiring all livestock farms to install and operate waste processing systems to prevent pollution. As a result, the number of livestock farms fell from between 9 000 to 10 000 at the peak of the industry to fewer than 1 000 at present. It is good to protect the environment but the Government should not thus stifle the development of the livestock industry. 　

The farming and fisheries industries seem to be on the decline, but, in fact, they still have room for development, especially in respect of high-technology agriculture and horticulture. If the Hong Kong SAR Government could inject more resources to explore and develop high-technology produce, it will certainly bring a light of hope to the local agricultural industry. For instance, local hotels have to import high-quality vegetables from abroad. If the Agriculture and Fisheries Department could help farmers introduce the techniques of growing these vegetables, it will enhance the farmers' competitive edge. As regards the horticultural industry, the Government has never considered it as part of the local agricultural industry and has given it no support. There is not even a wholesale market for fresh flowers. For years, the Government has turned a deaf ear to the repeated requests of the industry for such a wholesale market. If the Government could allocate a plot of land for the construction of a fresh flower wholesale market, it will not only promote the development of the local horticultural industry but will also benefit the flower export industry of China.

Furthermore, following the changeover of the sovereignty over Hong Kong, Hong Kong's ties with the Mainland, especially with the Guangdong Province, have become increasingly important. Many big cities in China have been engaged in "vegetable basket" projects. Earlier, the mover of this motion, Mr LO Suk-ching, has also talked about extending our fisheries industry into the coastal areas of Guangdong, and that the farming and fisheries industries of Hong Kong should actively work with their counterparts in China in promoting mutual development, so as to ensure a steady supply of high-standard foodstuffs to Hong Kong. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Leung-sing. 　

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the farming and fisheries industries have once played a definite role in the economic development of Hong Kong. In 1970, the output of the industries accounted for 2% of the our GDP. But with the growth of the local economy, and the resultant rise in labour costs, these industries, just like the local manufacturing industry, have gradually lost their competitiveness. Their proportion in the GDP continues to decline, dropping to 1% in 1980 and then to 0.1% today. At the same time, other industries such as the financial and services industries have been growing rapidly. It should thus be said that the changing scene of the farming and fisheries industries in the whole industrial structure represents the pattern governing economic development, and is also a sign of social and economic progress. 　

Many people think that scarcity of land, especially arable land, labour shortage and high wages would not have made it advantageous for Hong Kong to develop its the farming and fisheries industries. This argument has caused many controversies. Evolving from a fishing port and then through the stage of processing industry, Hong Kong has now developed into an economy with emphasis on financial and other kinds of services. From the viewpoint of comparative advantage, some argue, Hong Kong's only alternative is to continue to consolidate and strengthen its financial services while at the same time develop high value-added businesses. It is therefore not advisable to revert to the industrial structure and production mode of the 1970s. 　

As some colleagues have pointed out just now, the development of the local farming and fisheries industries is limited by many objective constraints, coupled with the fact that fewer and fewer young people are willing to join these industries. But, we have to admit that these industries still constitute a part of the local economy, supplying fresh foodstuffs to the people of Hong Kong every day. Therefore, it will indeed pay off many times over for the Government to conduct a comprehensive review and formulate a long-term policy on the future development of these industries. 　

Over the years, other than providing infrastructural and technical support, the Government has never directly subsidized the farming and fisheries industries. It is my opinion that these industries are still capable of creating the conditions necessary for their continued development. However, in the face of the competition posed by cheap imported fisheries and agricultural produce, scarcity of land and labour, and also the rising standards of environmental protection, the local farming and fisheries industries must bring in sophisticated technology, modern methods of farming and trawling, and advanced mariculture techniques, with the objective of yielding, fresh fisheries and agricultural produce of a high quality. Only by so doing can these industries survive and develop amidst keen competitions. Madam President, since the Hong Kong SAR has just been established, there is a need to maintain social stability in this peculiar period. Therefore, I agree that resources permitting, the Government should provide a certain degree of support and assistance to these industries to enhance their productivity. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, besides directly providing 30 000 jobs, the local agricultural and fishery industries have a definite contribution towards the supply of agricultural foodstuffs needed by Hong Kong. The significance of locally-produced agricultural foodstuffs is evidenced by the sizeable proportion which they occupy in the people's total consumption: 20% for fresh vegetables; 20% for live poultry and over 70% for fresh marine fish. 　

Besides supplying fresh and quality agricultural foodstuffs to the people, local agricultural and fisheries industries also serve to stabilize the prices of agricultural foodstuffs. However, these industries have for long experienced immense difficulties in their operation. One reason is of course the changes in market circumstances, but the Government's failure to draw up a long-term policy on agriculture and fisheries is certainly a major cause. No doubt, the Government has put in place some assistance schemes, but, it is highly questionable whether these better-than-nothing policies can actually work. A comprehensive review is therefore required. I have read the chapter on the agricultural and fisheries industries in the 1997 Yearbook published by the Hong Kong Government brought forth and I shall discuss three of the agricultural and fisheries policies by the Government.

One chapter mentions that an agricultural land rehabilitation scheme was launched in 1988 by the Agricultural and Fisheries Department, and in the last sentence of the paragraph concerned, it is concluded that the scheme has been in good progress. But, almost a decade after the scheme was launched, the Government has still failed to give any statistical evidence in the Yearbook to indicate how well the scheme is working. 　

Besides, the Government also says that the Agricultural and Fisheries Department has developed a non-pollutant, odourless and effluent-free pig-on-litter method of pig rearing. The paragraph on this method is very long, but it makes no mention of how such a method can improve the environment and how it can benefit the pig rearing industry specifically. If this method is really so favourable, I really wonder why the Government has refrained from giving an account of its merits. 　

Thirdly, the Government says that three low-interest loan funds are available to farmers and from the inception of these funds to the end of 1996, a total loan amount of $300 million has been extended to farmers. As regards the fisheries industry, the Government also says that it administers four funds, and, again, from the inception of these funds to the end of 1996, a total loan amount of $310 million has been extended to fishermen. The way that the Government presents the lending circumstances for these loans is very misleading. We cannot see how much has been provided as loans in 1996 or 1995; and whether there was any increase or decrease. We also cannot see the effect. The Government has only given a general description of the situation between the inception of the loans and the present. In fact, the $300 million mentioned may be the amount which covers two or three decades. 　

Concerning the motion moved by the Honourable LO Suk-ching today, I, as well as the Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood, agree that there is a need for supporting the development of the local farming and fisheries industries, but, obviously, cost-effectiveness is also a major factor that needs to be considered. The development of the farming and fisheries industries involves land use, application of resources, financial policies, training of workers, imported labour, the introduction of new technology and many other factors. I suggest that the Government should allocate funds to commission consultancy to conduct an independent study, so as to formulate an effective policy to support the long-term development of these industries. 　

Thank you, Madam President. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him. 　

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, Hong Kong is surrounded by the sea and possesses rich marine resources. Since Hong Kong was a fishing port even before its inception, the agricultural and fisheries industries can be described as the most historical industry in Hong Kong. With its development from a tiny fishing port into a metropolis, Hong Kong has proceeded to a stage of economic restructuring. The secondary and tertiary industries have been developing very rapidly, and, this has dealt a heavy blow to primary industries like the agricultural and fisheries industries, which now experience "a lack of new blood". There is a very popular misconception that the agricultural and fisheries industries have become sunset industries, because by relying on direct imports from China and other countries, we need not make any more efforts to assist the agricultural and fisheries industries. The Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) is of the opinion that such a misconception is attributable to the long-standing neglect and lack of a long-term policy on the part of the Government. 　

Madam President, Hong Kong has long been known as a gourmet's heaven, with cuisines of all countries available. What is more, the Hong Kong people are also famous for their "gourmet taste", which implies their strong demands for fresh foods and other produce. According to statistics in the Hong Kong Yearbook, the seafood consumption of Hong Kong in 1996 amounted to 300 000 tonnes, and local fish production, either captured or cultured, amounted to190 000 tonnes, or more than 50% of the total consumption. Moreover, recent inflation figures have indicated that the supply of primary food produce has a direct bearing on the Consumer Price Index A. So, should we continue to regard the farming and fisheries industries as "sunset industries" and leave them entirely on their own? 　

The shortage of deckhands is a factor which has been thwarting the development of the fishing industry. In the past, the fishing industry was very much a domestic industry, with family members constituting the sole source of labour. However, with increasing educational and job opportunities, most young people of the newer generations are unwilling to join this trade, thus leading to huge losses of manpower and forcing many fishermen to leave this industry. We, therefore, have sufficient reasons to believe that the decline of the fishing industry of Hong Kong has been caused actually by a lack of new blood rather than by a reduced market. 　

Over the years, fisheries organizations have been fighting for permission to recruit Mainland deckhands to work in Hong Kong waters. However, the number of Mainland deckhands approved by the Government has fallen far short of demand. What is more, the Government will allow the employment of Mainland deckhands only for fishing vessels with a length of 20 metres or more. Undoubtedly, this is very unfair to small- and medium-sized vessels. The DAB is of the opinion that the SAR should review its policy on deckhands. Moreover, to tie in with the future development of the deep-sea fishing industry, the Government should actively assist fishermen in upgrading their ocean fishing techniques and equipment, so as to give more room for the continued development of this industry. 　

In recent years, large-scale dredging and reclamation works along the coast have seriously damaged the seabed, dealing a blow to inshore fishing, and polluting our maricultural grounds. The Sap Long mariculture farm incident has revealed that fishermen and the Government have different standards on marine pollution and they also have different views regarding ex gratia compensations. The SAR Government should therefore review its standards on gauging water pollution and the method for calculating ex gratia compensations. It should also provide suitable maricultural grounds for mariculturists. In order to solve the pollution problem faced by fishing rafts and to make it possible for mariculturists to continue their operations, the Government should also provide technical support to help mariculturists deal with the deoxygenated layers under their fishing rafts on a regular basis. 　

Madam President, the Hong Kong fishing industry is not too weak to be revived, nor is it past redemption. The crucial point is whether or not the SAR Government is determined enough come to its assistance. It is unfair to say that the Agriculture and Fisheries Department has done nothing to promote the fishing industry, but it must be pointed out that it has just not done enough. The SAR Government should allocate more funds to conduct research on how to improve the equipment of fishing vessels and fishing rafts. For fishermen who lack the resources to improve their fishing gears, the SAR Government should offer financial assistance. It should also strengthen its communication with the Central Government and the coastal authorities so that fishermen engaged in deep-sea fishing can be allowed to operate in the waters of China and obtain the necessary logistics support. Only these measures will enable the Hong Kong fishing industry to perpetuate, develop and expand. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion proposed by the Honourable LO Suk-ching. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG. 　

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I support the motion today because I hope that the Hong Kong SAR Government will make a fresh assessment on its resources and revenue. I hope that the SAR Government will refrain from its passive approach when dealing with the various trades and enterprises in Hong Kong, in particular the agricultural and fishery industries which we discuss today. We do have the human resources and determination to maintain these industries. Today, many colleagues have also expressed opposition to the view that these industries are sunset industries. Having listerned to our opinions about these industries, the Government should really adopt a positive attitude towards them. 　

What is most important, I think, is that we should stop treating these industries as a source pollution. Actually, the technology today is very advanced. With this advanced level of technology, environment-friendly farming methods which use very limited resources can be introduced into Hong Kong very easily. We should no longer need to use chemical fertilizers, and we should be able to make good use of livestock wastes instead. In fact, with respect to this, some parts of the world have already acquired the know-hows. Why do we still have to wait? What do we not introduce these methods into Hong Kong for the assistance of these industries? 　

With these remarks, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services. 　

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have listened very carefully to Members' remarks. I am very grateful to them for their opinions, and we will consider them very carefully. First of all, I wish to tell everyone that the Government is supportive of the motion, for the reason that the Government has in fact been pursuing a policy of assisting the development of the agricultural and fisheries industries. I am therefore very glad that the Honourable LO Suk-ching has given us a chance to brief Members on the Government's policy on agriculture and fisheries, and to introduce to them the measures taken by the Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) now and in the past to facilitate the development of these two industries. We are also very glad that we have this chance to explain our long-term plan in this respect. 　

The Government has always recognized the great contributions which the agricultural and fisheries industries have made in respect of rural community construction, meeting the people's demand for fresh non-staple foodstuff, and relieving fluctuations in good supply and prices. Although the Government has not subsidized these industries directly, nor has it intervened in the free market mechanism, it has always worked hard to implement policies aiming at assisting these industries to raise their productivity and production efficiency. We have provided assistance to these industries in respect of their operation, wholesale marketing, financial aid and also conservation of resources. 　

In respect of assisting the operation of the agricultural industry, for years, the AFD has encouraged farmers to use modernized, efficient, safe and environment-friendly farming and livestock raising methods. The AFD had also provided them with various infrastructural and technical support services. The AFD, too, helps to raise farmers' productivity and returns by identifying and introducing into the territory quality livestock and premium vegetable species. In conjunction with the Vegetable Marketing Organization, the AFD has implemented an Accredited Farm Scheme to promote good farming methods. Regarding agricultural technology and techniques, such as farm management, disease, control pest prevention, safe use of agricultural chemicals, treatment of livestock wastes as well as prevention and treatment of livestock diseases, the AFD also gives advice to farmers directly or seeks to do so through farming co-operatives. In particular, on matter regarding the compliance of environmental protection legislation, the Government even gives direct financial aid to livestock farmers for the purpose of installing livestock waste treatment facilities. 　

To resolve the problem of labour shortage, the AFD has helped farmers apply for importation of labour. So far, the AFD had helped over 100 farms to secure quotas for about 350 imported workers under the Supplementary Labour Scheme. 　

Some Members have commented that with respect to the promotion of the agricultural and fisheries industries and environmental protection, government departments lack co-ordination with respect to their strategies. We cannot agree with them. The AFD and the Environmental Protection Department frequently exchange ideas for the purpose of enhancing the productivity of the agricultural and fisheries industries and protecting the environment. For instance, the Government has succeeded in helping to revive the pig rearing industry by developing the pig-on-litter method of pig rearing and providing subsidies for the construction of other environmental protection facilities. The achievements are obvious. The local production of pigs has risen from the original 8% of the territory's total consumption to 11% now. 　

In respect of wholesale marketing, through its own wholesale markets and those run by the financially autonomous Vegetable Marketing Organization, the AFD helps livestock and crop farmers to sell their produce effectively. For those farmers who grow quality agricultural produce under the Accredited Farm Scheme, the AFD also helps them to sell their produce at higher prices. Recently, the Scheme has been successfully extended to big farms in Guangdong, where vegetables are grown for the sole purpose of exporting to Hong Kong. 　

With respect to financial support, the AFD administers three loan funds providing credit service to farmers who want to enhance their productivity by increasing their investments. In 1996, the AFD approved a total of 440 loans applications, amounting to $28 million. 　

On the conservation of resources, we have adopted a strategy on agricultural land use, under which high quality farmlands are conserved through statutory land planning. The AFD also assumes the responsibility of maintaining, repairing and improving the drainage and irrigation systems. It, too, implements an agricultural land rehabilitation scheme to help farmers to use fallow high-quality farmlands for cultivation again. Since the scheme was launched in 1988, about 90 hectares of farmlands have been rehabilitated. 　

All these measures have, to a certain extent, contributed to the development of the local agricultural and fisheries industries. In 1996, the total value of local agricultural produce stood at about $1.3 billion representing 15% of the fresh vegetables, 26% of the chicken, and 11% of the pigs consumed by the local people. However, we, like Members of this Council, do believe that there are potentials for the agricultural and fisheries industries to further develop and that can contribute even more to the whole economy. Hence, we will shortly commission a consultant to conduct studies on the how best to assist the future development of the agricultural industry in terms of resource development and system operations. 　

In addition, we have also drawn up plans to negotiate with the relevant mainland authorities on the possibility of allowing more Hong Kong farmers to set up food production bases in the mainland, similar to those big vegetable farms in Guangdong. The AFD, local academic institutions and mainland agricultural technical personnel are working together to solve the agricultural problems which are of mutual concern and the scope of their technical co-operation continues to expand. Such contacts will further enhance and promote the agricultural development in the Pearl River Delta area. 　

I will now turn to the fisheries industry. This industry has made important contributions in the supply of fresh non-staple foodstuffs to Hong Kong. In recent years, the catches brought back by fishing vessels, together with the fish cultured in local waters, account for some 70% of the total consumption of marine fish in Hong Kong every year. The Government's policy on fisheries is to promote the development of the fishing industry and to sustain fishery resources, so as to ensure a steady supply of fresh fish for local consumption. 　

Over the years, the AFD has provided many different kinds of services to improve the competitiveness and productivity of the fisheries industry. To facilitate the operation of the industry, the AFD advises fishermen on the technology of the construction of fishing vessels and equipment. To enable fishermen to fish in the deep seas in distant areas, the AFD has been promoting the use of steel fishing vessels. The AFD has also provided a highly efficient wholesale marketing network through the wholesale fish markets run by the financially autonomous Fish Marketing Organization. The AFD administers several funds which provide credit services to fishermen who want to re-invest in their fishing vessels and equipment. The profits earned by wholesale fish markets are ploughed back into the industry in the form of low-interest loans to fishermen, improvements to market services and scholarships for fishermen's children. 　

Many Members have talked about difficulties experienced by the industry in recruiting sufficient local workers. We understand the difficulties faced by fishermen and have therefore implemented a Mainland Fishermen Deckhands Scheme, under which not more than 3 500 workers of Chinese nationality employed as dechhands on ocean-faring fishing vessels to enter Hong Kong to unload catches in specific wholesale fish markets. The nature of this scheme is different from that of the Supplementary Labour Scheme because in the case of the former, employment contracts must be drawn up outside Hong Kong and most of the work under such contracts must be carried out outside Hong Kong. The scheme has made a definite contribution to the fisheries industry. We understand that about 3 000 workers have been employed under this scheme, and we will also review whether there is any need for improvement as we gain more experience in the course of implementation. 　

Nevertheless, we are aware that fishery resources in local and neighbouring waters are continuously diminishing. The AFD has thus focused on identifying ways to conserve and sustain the fishery resources in local waters and also to protect the ocean environment. In this connection, we are carrying out three new schemes: 　

First, the AFD has launched a plan which worths about $100 million, and aims to install about 150 artificial reefs in various coasted parks and other suitable spots in the neighbouring waters of Hong Kong by 2001. The first one is expected to be installed by the end of this year. Artificial reefs will create an environmental favourable to the massive growth and development of marine life, and they will enrich its varieties, and also provide food and shelter for young fish so that they will have a better chance to grow and mature. This will also help to sustain our fishery resources and promote the long-term development of inshore fishing. 　

Second, the AFD will soon receive the last report of a 15-month study conducted by consultants on the resources of inshore fishing and fishing operation. The study will provide useful information on the existing condition, usage as well as potentials of the inshore marine resources of Hong Kong, and will enable the Government to formulate fishery resource management strategies suitable for the long-term sustainability of inshore fisheries. 　

Third, we have started to amend the relevant laws to increase substantially the maximum fines for using destructive fishing methods, such as the use of explosives and poison, and also prohibit or restrict the use of fishing tools harmful to the fisheries industry and marine life. 　

Since other places in the region are also troubled by the problem of fishermen using destructive fishing methods, we are bringing up this issue in a forum of the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC). In December this year, the AFD will work together with the State Oceanic Administration of China and the Environmental Protection Administration of Chinese Taipei to discuss the impact of destructive fishing methods on the marine environment, in the hope of arousing APEC Members' concern over this problem. The AFD is also actively working hand in hand with other APEC economic entities to promote marine conservation and sustain fishery resources. 　

As for future development, taking into account the increasing demand for marine fish, we think that there is a need for further expanding the scope of the fisheries industry. However, promoting and developing distant water fishing is no easy task. We have to study carefully a host of complicated matters, including the design of suitable fishing boats, enhancement of the skills of local fishermen, the study on the availability of supportive ports and market facilities, negotiation for fishing rights and also subsidies to capital investments. The AFD will soon conduct some in-depth studies. 　

On mariculture, we have again spared no efforts in helping to enhance the operation, productivity and returns of this industry. The AFD provides advisory services to mariculturists to help them improve their fish culture techniques. Besides carrying out regular inspection of fish culture zones, AFD officers also fish give seminars and demonstration to mariculturists, and introduce to them new culture fish species, new feed, as well as the prevention and treatment of fish diseases. After receiving any reports on the death of fish, the AFD will carry out investigation to trace the cause and look for suitable remedies. The AFD has also prepared leaflets and guidelines on the management of mariculture zones and environmental hygiene. These are distributed to mariculturists. 　

In view of the sledge accumulated under fish rafts, some Members have suggested the use of fish rafts on rotation. Since this will require the designation of more fish culture zones, it will be rather difficult to implement. But the AFD will continue to support mariculturists by helping them to adopt environment-friendly mariculture techniques. In recent years, the AFD have successfully introduced to mariculturists fish species that are suitable for local culture and have good commercial potentials. One of the popular species is the sea bass while the red drum is also under study. Moreover, the AFD has also made good progress in promoting new feed formulas which will not pollute the water but at the same time will encourage fish growth. 　

Owing to the limited supply of suitable mariculture grounds in Hong Kong, and since about 90% of our catches are obtained in seas outside our waters, we have been actively seeking the co-operation of mainland fisheries authorities to help Hong Kong fishermen establish fish culture grounds in the mainland and to protect them during their operation in the Chinese waters. 　

Lastly, I wish to reassure Members that the Government's policy is supportive of the development of the local agricultural and fisheries industries. From what I have said earlier, Members should be able see that the AFD has taken various measures to assist the farming and fisheries industries all along and it is also implementing many important new schemes favouring the long-term development of the industries. 　

Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching, you have already used up the 15 minutes which you originally have. Therefore, I cannot allow you to make a reply now. However, you may not have such a need as all Members who have spoken and also the Secretary for Economic Services are supportive of you motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LO Suk-ching be approved. 　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please says "no".

(No Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it. 　

RESOLVING THE FLOODING PROBLEM IN THE NORTHWEST NEW TERRITORIES 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second motion. Dr TANG Siu-tong. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed and set out under my name on the Agenda. 　

I believe no one would dispute it if I say that Hong Kong is a modernized city. For Hong Kong, the recent years are marked with an endless stream of large-scale infrastructural projects such as the new airport at Chak Lap Kok and the Tsing Ma Bridge, which has caught the world's attention, which all add to the pride of the Hong Kong people. Surprisingly, however, we have failed to do well in regard to our drainage infrastructure. Consequently, during the rainy season every year, floodings occur all over Hong Kong, particularly in the northwest New Territories, where the residents are worst-hit. 　

Undeniably, the northwest New Territories is more prone to flooding because of the relief of its land. However, human factors have also contributed to the aggravation of this problem. 　

1. Flood prevention works at slow pace 　

According to the information available to us, many years ago the Administration has already drawn up nearly 20 project plans on river training works in the northwest New Territories, with implementation dates spanning from 1993 to 2000. However, Madam President, what has actually happened is that many of these projects have experienced delayed implementation and their completion dates have had to be postponed accordingly. 　

2. Blockage of river courses 　

I have observed that the outlets of many drains are silted up, thus slowing down the speed of water drainage. The construction sites near river drains are often scattered with piles of construction wastes. When it rains, sand, wood and rubbish will be washed down by the rainwater into river drains, silting them up. The recent flooding in Tai Po is a good example. Besides, household refuse such as plastic bags, bottles and old pieces of furniture dumped here and there will also be washed down by heavy rains into the rivers, causing the rivers to be blocked up. 　

3. Erroneous town planning 　

In the mid-1980s, the Government vigorously developed many new towns. Tin Shui Wai, for example, is built on an artificially elevated site over 10 feet higher than the original ground level. The adjacent areas are thus turned into man-made lowlands, where floodings inevitably occur in times of heavy rain. 　

Madam President, in view of this, the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance (HKPA) urges that the Government should take the following short-term and long-term measures so as to solve the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories as soon as possible:

1. Short-term measures ─ increasing the resources and manpower for the maintenance and clearance of watercourses in flooding blackspots and other drainage channels

We are aware that those settlements lying along the Shenzhen River in the Northern District, including Sheung Shui, Ta Kwu Ling, Lo Wu, Kam Tin in Yuen Long, Sha Po, Tai Kong Po, Wang Chau, Lau Fau Shan and Hung Shui Kiu, are all blackspots for flooding over the years. Big floods in times of heavy downpour and small floods in times of light rains are just all too common. At present, there are only 130 staff members in the Mainland North Division of the Drainage Services Department, but these people are required to attend to all drainage matters in the districts of Yuen Long, Tuen Mun, Northern District and also Tai Po. With this level of manpower and staffing, can all drainage channels be maintained and cleared effectively? The Government claims that it will spend about $95 million this year on inspecting, clearing, dredging and repairing all watercourses over the territory. Will the existing level of available resources be sufficient? I believe that we can get some idea from the real situation. 　

Recently, we conducted a site visit to Tan Kwai Tsuen and Tai Kong Po Tsuen in Yuen Long during a downpour. There, we saw big heaps of silt and mud next to the river, and there were all kinds of debris such as plastic bags, styrofoam and vehicle parts in the river; there were even thick growths of wild grass in the smaller streams. There was just no outlet for rainwater to escape, and the road was flooded as a result. With our naked eyes, we could already see that surface drains were stuffed with rubbish, so the conditions of underground drains could then be easily imagined. From this, it is obvious that the resources that the Government has put in are still far from sufficient. 　

Hence, we have two suggestions: 　

1. The Government must deploy more manpower to inspect rivers and clean up rubbish, especially before the rainy season. Our site visit revealed that the inspections carried out by the Drainage Services Department in the past were obviously inadequate, as refuse was not effectively cleaned. Moreover, we also urge the Government to set up more rubbish collection centres and employ more workers to collect the rubbish. That way, when villagers are able to dispose of their rubbish in proper places, the possibility for littering will be diminshed.



2. The Government can make use of posters and activities such as seminars to remind villagers that they should not dump refuse around, and that if they do, they themselves will be the ultimate victims.

2. Long-term measures ─ speeding up drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories

We are of the opinion that in the long run, the only solution to the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories is to speed up the drainage works there. As I mentioned earlier, the Government has already drawn up some plans on river training works in the northwest New Territories several years ago. The works are to be implemented in flooding black spots such as Kam Tin, Sheung Shui, Fan Ling and San Tin. 　

According to the 1996 statistics, the implementation of many flood prevention works have been put off. For example, the first part of the third phase of the primary drainage works in San Tin of the northwest New Territories was originally expected to begin in August 1999. However, the latest information shows that the commencement date will have to be delayed until October 2000, and the completion will thus have to be accordingly postponed for one year. 　

Likewise, if we look at the 1996 statistics, we will notice that the first phase of the village flood protection scheme in Yuen Long, Kam Tim and Ngau Tam Mei Tsuen was once expected to start in October 1998. However, the latest position is that it will not start until March 1999, and its completion will also be delayed for a year. How many more similar cases of delay are there? Works commencement dates can be delayed again and again. No wonder the northwest New Territories has been battered by floods for so many years. 　

In view of this, the HKPA recommends that the Government should put in place an effective monitory mechanism. 　

The floodings over the recent years should have made the Government realize the urgency of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories. But, the cases of delay mentioned just can hardly give confidence to the colleagues of this Council and the public, convincing them that the Government does have the determination to resolve the flooding problem in that area. We earnestly hope that the Government will establish an effective mechanism to supervise and monitor the progress of all drainage works.

3. Communicating closely with the Shenzhen authorities, in the hope that the time for flood discharge will be brought to our notice without delay

Madam President, I can still remember the "September 26 incident" of 1993, in which the flood discharge from the Shenzhen Reservoir caused serious flooding in the Northern District of Hong Kong. When typhoon Victor hit Hong Kong this year, although the flood discharge by Shenzhen fortunately did not cause any casualties in the Northern District, vegetable farmers still suffered losses in the value of several million dollars, and vegetable prices have thus been pushed up by 30%. 　

The losses sustained by the residents there could have been reduced. Had Shenzhen informed Hong Kong through the Border Liaison Group earlier instead of just 45 minutes prior to the flood discharge, the farmers could have more time to salvage their crops and move their farming machine to higher places, and their losses could then have been minimized. Moreover, within such a short span of 45 minutes, the government departments concerned were unable to take any contingency measures to cope with the situation. Although policemen and firemen were deployed to help evacuate the residents, the effect was not satisfactory. The New Territories Vegetable Farmer Concern Group has told me that in some remote villages, police officers were not to be found at that time. These villagers just happened to know that Shenzhen was about to discharge floodwater when they watched television. From all this, we can see that the notice given by the Shenzhen authorities to the territory was too hasty, with the result that the relevant government departments and farmers of Hong Kong could not respond by taking any corresponding preventive measures. 　

In the light of this, I have three suggestions to make:

(1) An audio pre-warning system 　

We know that Tai O once implemented a similar system, under which a representative of the residents responsible for liaison would notify the residents by phone. But, we think that given the technological level of today, such a method may well be clumsy and time-consuming. Hence, we suggest that an audio pre-warning be implemented in all villages in the Northern District, so that once the Border Liaison Group is notified by the Shenzhen authorities, they can immediately activate this system, informing the villagers of the time, duration and scale of the discharge. That way, they will have more time to make preparations. Such a system not only saves manpower but also ensures that the message can be spread to all remote areas. 　

(2) Enhance communication with the Shenzhen authorities 　

I think that Shenzhen should step up its communication with us so that the Hong Kong Government can be notified, as early as possible, of the time, rate per second and duration of a flood discharge. The Vegetable Farmer Concern Group considers that a discharge notification should be given at least three to four hours or even more in advance. Of course, it would be most ideal if a notification can be given half a day or even one day in advance. I hope that the Hong Kong Government can maintain closer contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, and convey to them the wish of local farmers that they could be notified without delay. 　

Two days ago, several of our colleagues in this Council, including me, paid a visit to the Shenzhen River Regulation Office. The staff members of the Office told us that the study on the third phase of the regulation of the Shenzhen River, that is the work on the drainage basin of Ng Tung River, had been completed and they were now waiting for a commencement date for the works. We hope that the Government will contact the Shenzhen authorities as soon as possible so as to secure an early start of the works, because this will greatly help to ease the flooding problem in Ng Tung River basin, which has also cast a serious impact on the Northern District. 　

(3) More police officers and firemen to help the residents

During flood discharges, they can help rescue the residents from the scenes and help farmers to move their farming machines to safe places, thereby minimizing losses caused to lives and properties. 　

Madam President, the reason for my putting forward the motion debate on "Resolving the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories" is that the residents there have been bothered by this problem perennially and that the Government cannot simply put the blame on Heaven. 　

My three suggestions are: (1) short-term measures ─ increasing the resources and manpower for the maintenance and clearance of watercourses in flooding blackspots and other drainage channels; (2) long-term measure ─ speeding up drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories; and (3) communicating closely with the Shenzhen authorities, in the hope that the time for flood discharge will be brought to our notice without delay so that losses caused by flood discharge to lives and properties will be minimized. I am of full conviction that "the will of man will triumph over nature". 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I move the motion. 　

　

Dr TANG Siu-tong moved the following motion: 　

"That, as the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories has remained very serious in recent years, this Council urges the Government to: 　

1. speed up the progress of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories;
　
2. provide adequate resources for the stepping up of maintenance and clearance works of watercourses and other drainage systems at flooding blackspots before the rainy season; and
　
3. communicate closely with the Shenzhen authorities on the early notification to the territory of the time of flood discharges, so that residents can make adequate preparation, thereby reducing loss in lives and property."

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That, as the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories has remained very serious in recent years, this Council urges the Government to: 　

1. speed up the progress of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories;

　

2. provide adequate resources for the stepping up of maintenance and clearance works of watercourses and other drainage systems at flooding blackspots before the rainy season; and

　

3. communicate closely with the Shenzhen authorities on the early notification to the territory of the time of flood-discharges, so that residents can make adequate preparation, thereby reducing loss in lives and property.

　

Does any Member wish to speak? 　

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

　

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, during the rainy season every year, the lowlands of Hong Kong are invariably battered by flooding, and this is especially the case for northwest New Territories. After each downpour, villages are all turned into swamps and villagers suffer heavy losses in property, crops and livestock. Sometimes, there may even be threat to lives. Natural disasters are of course hard to avoid, but, if the Government has taken adequate measures to prevent and combat these natural disasters, and if the Government has put in place adequate disaster relief measures, the losses substained by the people as result of flooding can in fact be minimized. 　

In regard to the prevention and combating of flooding, the Drainage Services Department has already formulated a set of long-term and short-term flood relief measures. But, the question is that the Government has not been determined enough to relieve the flooding problem and the drainage improvement works were often subject to frequent delays. According to the plans laid down by the Government and the Shenzhen River Regulation Office, a long-term measure is to carry out the Shenzhen River regulation project in three phases: to straighten the course and widen the mouth of the river; to eliminate the threat of flooding by reducing the bends of the river; and to increase the drainage capacity at its mouth. The first phase of the works which involves cutting the bends of the river has already been completed, and has achieved a certain effect on flood prevention. The extent of flooding in the northwest New Territories has thus been reduced. The second phase of the works is already underway. After the completion of the third phase, the flooding problem in Shenzhen and the northern New Territories will be much mitigated. However, because of the mammoth scale of the works, it will take time to have them all completed, and in the meantime, residents can only look forward to a gradual improvement to the situation. In regard to the Government's improvement works for river systems in the New Territories, it has been found in a recent progress review that many of the works have been delayed for one or two years or even longer. I hope that the Government will really make determined efforts to step up its co-operation with the Shenzhen River Regulation Office and to allocate sufficient resources to secure the early completion of the river regulation works. Furthermore, in an attempt to relieve low lying areas from the threat of floods as soon as possible, it should also establish a monitory mechanism and publish the schedule for the river regulation works, so that the public can also take part in monitoring the progress of the works. 　

As regards short-term measures, the Government has indeed carried out river maintenance, minor drainage remedial works, flood plains management and flood warning in a systematic manner. However, because of the rapid development in the New Territories over the last 10 odd years, the relevant drainage and river improvement works have in fact failed to catch up. So, even there are plans, the works required have still been held up owing to environmental protection and other factors. I think that while it is important to protect the environment, the people's lives and properties should be considered even more important. Therefore, I hope that environmental protection groups and all other parties involved will co-operate with the Government, giving top priority to the prevention of disasters, so that the plans can be implemented as soon as possible. Another point I want to raise is the land abuses in the New Territories. In recent years, lands have been filled up highly for housing construction or conversion into open container depots or vehicle maintenance grounds. This has turned adjacent villages into lowlands. To tackle this situation, the Planning Department should deploy more manpower to prosecute those who have altered the use of lands illegally without submitting any applications. At the same time, members of the public should, for their own sake and that of others, keep the environment tidy and clean. They should not alter the use of lands at will, or dump rubbish, big pieces of furniture and so on wherever they like because if they do so, rainwater will wash them down into the river, thus blocking its course and aggravating the flooding problem. The Government should also step up its publicity efforts, advising the public not to dump garbage anywhere they like; it should also set up more rubbish collection centres in the rural areas so that the people will have proper places to dispose of their refuse. Through such dual efforts, it would be possible to keep the river courses unimpeded. 　

Madam President, disaster prevention is of course very important, but contingency measures for disaster relief are also indispensable. When a typhoon hit Hong Kong earlier this month, the Shenzhen authorities discharged floodwater at nine o'clock that night. However, they did not inform Hong Kong until 8:15 pm. In such a great hurry, it had been impossible for the Hong Kong authorities to notify all residents who would be affected. Consequently, the residents had no time to remove their furniture and electrical appliances to higher places or harvest their crops. As a result, they suffered heavy financial losses. I hope that the Government will step up its communication with the relevant departments in Shenzhen so that in future they would notify Hong Kong at least several hours in advance. The Government should also draw up a more effective system of warning measures and procedures, so that the residents of the affected areas can be given prior warmings. That way, they will have more time to prepare for the floods, thus reducing their losses. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG, took the Chair. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, this year, because of the El Nino Effect which has cast an impact on the weather conditions in South Asia, Hong Kong once recorded over 300 mm of rainfall in one single day. Actually, every year as the rainy season begins, the residents of many parts in the New Territories will start to be bothered by flooding. Whenever there is a rainstorm, agricultural lands, fishponds and even the houses of residents will all turn into swamps. It is not hard to imagine the extent of their losses. 　

In order to deal with the problem of flooding, the Government has been working very hard on the Northwest New Territories Drainage Work Programme in recent years, but, it has failed to completely resolve this problem. When a typhoon hit Hong Kong earlier this month, the flooding of some agricultural lands in the New Territories was even worse than before, and it took a total of four days for all the flood water to completely subside. 　

Many parts of the northwest New Territories are basically low-lying areas, but, on the whole, the drainage system there is still not entirely satisfactory. As a government with a sense of responsibility, the Administration should take prompt actions to improve the existing drainage systems; expedite the progress of drainage improvement works; clear the silted outlets of drainage channels, and reinforce its inspections so as to minimize the blockage of drainage outlets caused by rubbish, construction wastes and debris. In this connection, the Government must step up its publicity efforts to educate villagers and construction workers working there that they should dispose of their rubbish properly, so that their rubbish and other debris will not be washed down into the drainage channels by heavy rains. 　

In the past, the northern New Territories would become flooded very easily because the Shenzhen authorities had to open their floodgates to discharge flood water during prolonged downpours. However, with the completion of Phase I of the Shenzhen River regulation works sometime ago, the work on flood prevention has achieved some noticeable results. Although the precipitation record of Hong Kong this year is one of the highest in this century, marked improvements have been observed in flood-prone areas in terms of the scope and degree of damage. To further reduce the losses sustained by the residents of Northwest New Territories as a result of flooding, the Government should maintain close contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, so as to obtain from them prior information about the time and other relevant particulars relating to their flood discharges. That way, the villagers likely to be affected can be notified to make preparations in good time. 　

Besides co-operating with the Shenzhen authorities to regulate the Shenzhen River as soon as possible, the Government should also seek to resolve the flooding problem in Hong Kong completely. The Drainage Services Department must make more efforts to conduct a comprehensive study on improving the drainage systems in Hong Kong. According to reports, drainage improvement works are often held up by difficulties in land resumption. Should this be the case, the Government must look squarely at this problem and look for a solution as soon as possible, so as to avoid any delay in the progress of the works. 　

Mr Deputy, on the basis of the aforesaid reasons and with these remarks, I support Dr the Honourable TANG Siu-tong's motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NGAN Kam-chuen. 　

MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong supports this motion. 　

Since the beginning of this year, Hong Kong has been struck by many rainstorms, causing serious flooding in many places in the New Territories. Busy urban areas such as Mong Kok and Prince Edward Road are heavily flooded during every downpour. All these indicate that the flooding problem in Hong Kong is still very serious. The Government has set a goal in the Policy Commitments on abating the danger of flooding. However, it looks unlikely that this goal will ever be achieved in the foreseeable future. The most pressing task for the Government now is to expedite the flood protection schemes in the New Territories, repair and improve the stormwater drainage in the urban areas, alleviate the plight of the residents, and reduce their economic losses caused by flooding. 　

To solve the flooding problem, stop-gap solutions as well as permanent cures have to be identified. Hence, the Government has to take a three-pronged approach to co-ordinate flood prevention works, policies for short-term improvement and management, as well as legislative measures in order that the problem could be thoroughly tackled. 　

(1) To speed up the progress of flood prevention and drainage works 　

In 1994, the Hong Kong Government promised that by the end of 1997, it would complete flood protection schemes for the villages which involved the construction of bunds and flood prevention pump stations in 12 villages lying in flood-prone lowlands. To everyone's disappointment, the schemes have been stalled repeatedly, and the Government also admits that the works will not be completed until the end of 1999. Actually, the flood protection schemes for the villages are only a very small part of flood prevention projects in the New Territories, most of the more important items such as the construction of drainage channels and river training have not even started. According to the documents provided by the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau, of a total of 17 major flood prevention projects in the New Territories already decided in 1995, as at today, only five of them are in progress and only one has been completed. It is small wonder that whenever there is a downpour, few places in the New Territories can be spared from floods and that the residents there can only succumb to fate. 　

Take Yuen Long as an example. The region around San Tin and Ngau Tam Mei are blackspots for flooding. Since the primary drainage works in San Tin will not be completed until 2002, areas such as Yan Sau Wai, On Loong Tsuen and Ching Loong Tsuen have been frequently battered by flooding over the last two years. In the area of Ngau Tam Mei, the construction of the primary drainage and river training works will have to wait till next year before they can start. Hence, the residents of Yau Mei San Tsuen, Ngau Tam Mei San Tsuen, Chuk Yuen Tsuen will still have to live in fear and pray earnestly to Heaven for good weather. 　

As for Kwan Tei Tsuen and Ho Ba Tsuen in Sheung Shui which were besieged by floods two weeks ago, since the Government will not start training the Ng Tung River until 1998, so when torrential rain comes, the villages there will be flooded and the residents will all be affected. All they can do is to look on with despair when their crops are engulfed by the flood water. 　

All these cases serve to illustrate that the Government must be urged to speed up the progress of river training and drainage works, and to carry out river dredging and drainage repairs as soon as possible, so that flooding or irregular drainage of watercourses can be prevented. 　

(2) To take short-term improvement and management measures 　

Recently, every time after a flood, government officials would explain that the flood had been caused by the blockage of drainage channels by leaves, rubbish, plaster bags and other debris. This simply shows that the Government has not done enough in terms of preventive repairs and of minimizing blockages. So, the Government must reinforce its plans for preventive repairs and maintenance. It must also conduct regular inspection of drainage channels during the rainy season, so that leaves, rubbish and plastic bags causing blockage can be removed and damaged drains repaired. 　

Mr Deputy, recently I have visited Ko Po San Tsuen in Yuen Long to investigate a complaint filed by the residents. Because the Au Tau approach road of Route 3 is to be constructed along a slope, Ko Po San Tsuen has been turned into a low-lying area. Although the constractor has dug a temporary drainage channel, it is often blocked by wastes produced in the course of the construction process. As a result, the village has been flooded many times and each time flood water reaches waist-deep level, seriously threatening the lives and properties of the residents there. In the past decades, flood water only came up to the ankle but now it is waist-deep. This shows that the Government must step up the monitoring of the various public and private projects to prevent the projects from creating blockages to drainage channels. It must also ensure that drainage systems will not be blocked up by construction wastes and that there are sufficient temporary drainage facilities. 　

(3) To enact co-ordinating legislation 　

Flood prevention projects frequently involve land resumption, reconstruction of existing roads and resettlement of residents. In some cases, the Government fails to deal promptly with the objection of residents, thus causing repeated project delays. The Government plans to amend the Town Planning Ordinance in this legislative year to change the statutory time limit for the processing of public objections. However, most of the time flood prevention projects will involve the Roads Ordinance, Foreshore and Sea-bed Ordinance and Crown Lands Resumption Ordinance. In this connection, the Government has not drawn up any plan in amending them. I hope that the Government will amend these ordinances as soon as possible so that they can be brought in line with the newly enacted Railways Ordinance, which allows a statutory time limit of nine months for the processing of objections. This will achieve uniformity for the legislation, in addition to promoting the smooth implementation of the flood prevention schemes. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Wong-fat. 　

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, as early as a decade ago, Members of the then Legislative Council have already urged the Government to mitigate the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories. And, in view of the deterioriating situation, a resolution of a similar nature was endorsed in 1993 again. But floods still occur year after year and the lives and properties of the residents continue to come under the ferocious threat of floods. The Government has repeatedly claimed that as soon as the extensive flood prevention projects are completed, the threat of flooding will be eliminated. It is obvious that only time can tell whether or not the Government's pledges will be fulfilled. But, in the meantime, the threat of flooding faced by the residents whenever there is any downpour remains a harsh reality. It is a big irony that flooding is still a common scene in such a modernised city like Hong Kong.

The need to develop the New Territories in support of the population growth in Hong Kong is not anything novel which have suddenly emerged today. Since the Government has to develop the New Territories, it should conduct comprehensive planning beforehand. The floodings in the New Territories which occur every year show that the Government's attempts to develop the area has not been accompanied by any detailed consideration in regard to the ancillary public facilities, and this accounts for the endless floodings. 　

Since 1987, I have repeatedly urged the Government to establish a flood prevention team and to incorporate an additional term in works contracts to require contractors not to commence works until they have constructed the drainage channels required and obtained approval from the flood prevention team. The flood prevention team can also co-ordinate the efforts of the various government departments as regards the management and maintenance of the drainage systems in the New Territories. Since the Government has now planned to develop the northwest New Territories in an extensive scale to cope with the housing demand in Hong Kong, I think that the establishment of a flood prevention team has become a proposal with an even more realistic significance. 　

Mr Deputy, the floodings in the northwest New Territories every year have posed a serious threat to the livelihood and safety of all the people living there. The most pressing task at present is for the Government to allocate more resources to expedite the progress of the flood prevention works, so as to relieve the residents there of the threat of flooding as soon as possible. The New Territories account for 88% of the total area of the whole territory. It is perfectly reasonable and necessary for the Government to allocate more resources to construct more facilities for draining stormwater. 　

In the past, the rivers in the New Territories served naturally as a major drainage system. But now, because of the Government's development plans, many of the rivers have lost most of their drainage function. Some of the rivers are also blocked by refuse, sand and stones dumped by inconsiderate people. The Administration should step up its inspection and prosecute the people who dump wastes and debris in the rivers. Furthermore, river beds should also be dredged and the embankments repaired in order to restore the natural drainage function of the rivers. 　

Moreover, Phase I of the Shenzhen River regulation carried out jointly by the Hong Kong Government and the Shenzhen authorities was completed early this year. Its initial effect on mitigating the flooding on both sides of the border has been noticed. The Hong Kong Government should take all necessary measures to work closely with the Shenzhen authorities to secure an early commencement and completion of the regulation works of the Shenzhen River that remained. 　

Mr Deputy, in the past, only the New Territories area was affected by flooding. But, in recent years, flooding has also become a common scene in the urban areas. With people all over the territory being affected by floods, it is obvious that the development of our drainage facilities are lagging seriously behind that of the community. The Government should conduct a thorough review of the drainage systems all over the territory as soon as possible, and devote as much resources as possible to bring about an early solution to the problem of flooding. 　

Mr Deputy, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin. 　

MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, whenever there is torrential rain, the Northwest New Territories (NWNT) will invariably become a blackspot for flooding. In recent years, public clamour for a solution to this problem has never ceased, and the various sectors of the community have been pressing the Administration to implement flood prevention measures in this area. But, why has NWNT been unable invariably to escape the poor fate of being turned into a world of water every time after continuous downpours? Why must the residents of NWNT continue to be battered by flooding? Should they just blame Heaven, instead of also laying the blame on possible human errors? 　

The reasons for the flooding problem in NWNT can be categorized into the following. Firstly, the flood relieving function of fish ponds have been greatly reduced because a large number of them have been reclaimed as a result of the Government's strenuous efforts to build new towns in this area. What is more, massive construction projects undertaken by private developers in this district have continued to raise the former low-lying areas, preventing rain water from escaping, thereby causing flooding. One of the most important reasons is that the Government's development of NWNT has been characterized by a lack of long-term environmental impact assessment. Besides, it was observed during the last rainstorm that drains were blocked by construction waste, domestic refuse and abandoned furniture pieces. This shows that, besides the objective factor of geographical changes, the people themselves are one of the causes attributing to the flooding problem. 　

With regard to how this problem can be resolved, Mr TANG Siu-tong has put forward a lot of suggestions and other Members have also expressed some other opinions. Since I support most of their opinions, I am not going to repeat them here. I just want to add one point. From the point of view of environment protection, I must say that while the Government attempts to speed up the work on improving the drainage systems of NWNT, it should learn from past experience. This means that adequate environmental impact assessment must be carried out before the Government makes any land grants or formulate any plans on land uses. Having conducted environmental impact assessment, drainage systems with proven effects should be installed in flood-prone areas to prevent flooding. I also agree to what a Member has said just now. The Government should deploy more manpower and take stern actions against those people who have altered designated land uses illegally, by, for example, converting farmlands into grounds for abandoned cars and construction waste materials. Of course, it is also very important to increase the environmental awareness of the public. In this connection, the Government should step up its publicity efforts, advising the people to keep the environment clean by not littering around. This is for their own good as well as for the benefit of others. 　

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung. 　

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, for years the northwest New Territories has remained a blackspot for floodings. Every time after a heavy downpour, that part of the territory will experience serious floods; traffic is disrupted and even paralyzed, trapping and stranding the residents. Sometimes, even firemen have to be sent for to rescue besieged residents by lifeboats. 　

Regrettably, while the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories is yet to be solved, western Kowloon has become another flood-stricken area. In the torrential rain last Friday, many streets in Mong Kok experienced floods up to waist-deep, and Nathan Road was practically turned into a river. Many cars broke down and the traffic came to a complete standstill. Shops could not do business because of the flood. Pedestrians were stranded and silence befell this busy city. It was only fortunate that there were no casualties. 　

Obviously, the plight brought about by flooding is becoming increasingly severe. Its extent and the seriousness of the damage have reached a point where we can no longer defer determined efforts to bring an end to the problem. 　

Floods occur whenever it rains. The Pearl of the Orient has become another Venice. It is indeed a great irony to such a modernized international metropolis like Hong Kong. 　

Hong Kong is a world-famous international financial centre, possessing fiscal reserves of over $360 billion. That such an advanced and well-off city has failed nonetheless to solve the flooding problem is indeed a shame to its status as an international financial centre, and is also detrimental to its image as a modernized metropolis. 　

The people's livelihood consists of nothing more than four elements, namely, clothing, food, accommodation and transportation. The people of Hong Kong do not need to worry about their clothing and food any more. While accommodation has always posed great difficulties, the issue of transportation has become yet another headache. Whenever there is heavy rain, there are serious floods; traffic is paralyzed, and the people are stranded. These all cause great inconvenience to the people with respect to their safety, work, schooling and daily life. The elimination of the flooding problem, and thus of the "transportation" headache, is a fundamental protection to which our people are entitled. There is simply no excuse on the part of the authorities for failing to do so.

It rains every year and the territory floods every year. Every department of the former Government gave its own reasons for shirking its responsibilities. So, there has been no obvious sign that the flooding problem is in any way really mitigated. 　

Flooding brings disasters and plagues the people. How much longer will it have to bother our people? 　

Is it really true that there is not any complete cure for this big old problem named "flooding"? 　

We have neither any reason nor any excuse for shirking this responsibility. We do have sufficient manpower, as well as financial and other resources to build advanced drainage systems and substantially raise the capacity of our drainage channels. We can clear drainage channels of silt and debris regularly and enhance their repairs and maintenance. We can step up inspections during the rainy season and take all precautionary measures before the rain comes, and we can also open the floodgates to discharge the stormwater in time. We can also educate the people not to litter or dump refuse anywhere they like to prevent blockage of drainage channels ...... All in all, it depends entirely on whether or not the Government wants to attach enough importance to this situation. 　

Typhoons and torrential rains are nothing new to Hong Kong. As a matter of fact, it can be said that they are almost a part of our everyday life. Therefore, our drainage systems must have sufficient capacity to combat these natural disasters. Their design must have be of a high standard and their drainage capacity must be big enough to prevent flooding. A modernized city must have modernized drainage systems. 　

The capacity of the existing drainage systems in Yau Ma Tei, Tsim Sha Tsui and Mong Kok is just too small to be able to handle unusually heavy rainfalls. According to the Rainwater Mitigation Project, this district will have to wait till the year 2006 before its primary drainage can be sufficiently upgraded to handle exceptionally heavy rainfalls occurring only once in two centuries. In other words, the residents will have to wait nine more years before their district can be safe from flooding. 　

Such a slow progress cannot be justified. The eradication of the problem can wait no longer. I hope that the Hong Kong SAR Government will get rid of the red-tapes of the former Government and adopt a new vision. It must put in sufficient resources to enhance the construction of our drainage systems, to perfect their management, and make determined efforts to speedily cure this problem, not only in the northwest New Territories but also in western Kowloon and even throughout the whole territory. 　

With these remarks, I support the Honourable TANG Siu-tong's motion on behalf of the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does other Member wish to speak? 　

(No Member responded)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands. 　

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, from the motion moved by Dr TANG Siu-tong and speeches by Members of the Council, we can see that the Government and the Council do share the common goal of mitigating the flooding problem in the Northwest New Territories (NWNT), and that our views are converging. The scenes of devastated crops and frustrated people keeping water out of their homes that we saw on television, however, showed only part of the picture. I would like to take this opportunity to complete the other part of the picture. 　

First, I would like to talk about the causes of flooding. The NWNT has three main drainage basins, namely the Tin Shui Wai Drainage Basin, the Yuen Long and Kam Tin Drainage Basin as well as the Ngau Tam Mei and San Tin Drainage Basin. These basins are highly susceptible to flooding because they are low natural flood plains, and, as pointed out by Members, because they have been subject to intense development pressure, leading to building on agricultural land and blockage of rivers by refuse dumping and so on. The flooding situation in these basins will be further aggravated by a combination of intensive rainfall, that is, heavy rainfall in a short duration, and adverse tidal/surging effects in Deep Bay, where the flood eventually outfalls. 　

How do we deal with the flooding then? The Government has adopted a comprehensive three-tier approach to mitigate this problem. The three tiers relate to: first, ongoing improvement and maintenance measures; second, planning and legislative measures and third, long term structural measures. 　

As regards the ongoing improvement and maintenance measure, in order to ensure optimum hydraulic capacities in the primary drainage systems, the Government has an ongoing preventive maintenance programme. This included cleansing, desilting and repairing over 200 kilometres of stormwater drains and stream courses. Critical areas and flood blackspots are inspected regularly to remove any blockage. These actions are stepped up before and during the rainy season each year. Flooding blackspots are inspected once a month during the dry seasons and once every two weeks during the rainy seasons. Inspections are also carried out after each rain. The recurrent expenditure on these works in the NWNT alone is $15 million per year. Annually, 120 000 cubic metres of silt are removed from these drainage systems. 　

The implementation of the Government's drainage works have met with much difficulty in the past owing to the refusal of private land owners to allow the works to be carried out on their lands and the progress of the works has thus been held up. Hence, in response to Dr TSO WONG Man-yin's question whether we can only "blaming Heaven" but not "the people", I think that we have every good reason to "blame the people". It is not that we do not want to do it but that the works have often met with obstructions; and neither is it a matter of resources. Nevertheless, the Government has also made much effort in this regard. 　

Implementation of the works has been enhanced by the Land Drainage Ordinance enacted in March 1994, which allows the Government to enter or pass through private lands to carry out the necessary drainage works on major drainage basins which are covered by the Drainage Authority Area (DAA) Plans. They include the Tin Shui Wai Drainage Basin, the Indus Drainage Basin, the Ganges Drainage Basin and the Yuen Long, Kam Tin, Ngau Tam Mei Drainage Basin. The Plan for San Tin Drainage Basin is pending on an appeal from a private land owner, but enforcement action as per the Land Drainage Ordinance can still be taken by the Drainage Authority with the draft DAA Plan for the San Tin Drainage Basin. 　

Second, in respect to the planning and legislative measures, as pointed out by Members, we hope that land use management and development controls will minimize the adverse impact of developments on drainage in the adjacent areas. In the early 1990s the Government introduced a legislative framework to manage new development in the New Territories. The enactment of the Town Planning (Amendment) Ordinance 1991 provided a means to control development in the New Territories. These controls supplemented the statutory Outline Zoning Plans and controls which can be imposed through the lease conditions on land grants. 　

Drainage Impact Assessments have been imposed on public as well as private developments which are likely to have significant impact on the drainage of the area. In the past five years, 469 drainage impact assessments have been conducted for new developments in the NWNT. I believe that these assessments are much more direct in dealing with the flooding problem than the environmental assessments as suggested by Dr TSO WONG Man-yin. 　

Third, long term structural measures include river training and village flood protection schemes. In regard to the NWNT, currently, 10 kilometres of the Shan Pui River and the Kam Tin River are under construction. Approximately 75% of the works has been finished and the remaining works will be completed next year. The overall plan is to train 36 kilometres of river channels covering the Shan Pui River, the Kam Tin River, the Ngau Tam Mei drainage channel, the Yuen Long By-pass Floodway and the San Tin drainage channel and some smaller channels. New works contracts will be underway. The total estimated cost is $3 billion. All major works will be completed by 2002, when flooding will be reduced to a minimum in the region. 　

In regard to Members' requests to speed up the works, we have already expedited the programme following the critical path of operations. However, there are operational constraints that we have to address. For instance, we have to consider interface with other major projects in the area, such as the Route 3 and the West Rail. 　

To further tackle local flood problems, starting in 1995, the Government has instigated seven drainage master plan studies which cover all flood prone areas in the territory. These studies will look into the secondary and local stormwater drainage systems and devise long term improvement measures. The first drainage master plan study covers the Tin Shui Wai and the Yuen Long, Kam Tin and Ngau Tam Mei drainage basins of the NWNT. It commenced in 1996 and will be completed early next year. All seven drainage master plans will be completed by 1999. 　

Complementary to the river training projects, we have instigated village flood protection schemes, which Members have also mentioned, in flood prone areas in the New Territories. These schemes will protect low-lying villages that are at levels below the new drainage channels by collecting water in flood storage ponds and pumping it into the drainage channels. A protective bund is also constructed around the village to keep out flood water. Altogether 11 flood protection schemes will be constructed. Three of the planned schemes at Chau Tau, Sha Po and San Tin are under construction and the scheme at Sha Po is expected to be completed by the end of 1998 and which at Chau Tau and San Tin by the end of 1999. New works contracts will be let in phases commencing next year. Operationally, we will have to complete river training before the discharge from the flood protection scheme can be accommodated. These works take time and cannot be done in one single move. 　

Dr TANG Siu-tong and other Members have mentioned about the delays in works. I have also said that the implementation of the flood prevention schemes has been delayed due to objections to land resumption during gazetting of some of the schemes. According to our latest estimation, all flood protection schemes should be completed by the end of 2004. 　

The discharge from Shenzhen. With regard to the impact on Hong Kong of discharges from the Shenzhen Reservoir, the Shenzhen authorities have agreed with us to inform us as early as possible and preferably two hours before they will discharge; they will also do their best to limit the discharge rate so that the impact on the Hong Kong side will be minimized. On receiving notice from the Shenzhen side of a possible discharge, rescue services provided by the Fire Services Department, Home Affairs Department and Hong Kong Police will be put on alert to handle any possible impact and villagers who are likely to be affected will be informed as early as possible. 　

On the most recent occasion of discharge during Typhoon Victor on 2 August 1997, although the situation was, as pointed out by the Honourable CHOY Kan-pui, that we only had a 45-minute notice, we immediately suggested the Shenzhen authorities to reduce the discharge rate because the high tide then prevailing would aggravate the flooding. Thanks to our long-time close co-operation with the Shenzhen authorities, they reduced the discharge rate from 60 to 45 cubic metres per minute. The entire water discharging operation was closely monitored by the Emergency Control Centre of the Drainage Services Department and Emergency Monitoring and Support Centre of the Government Secretariat through river gauges at vulnerable locations. The impact of the discharge was thus confined locally to the low-lying areas around Lo Wu and Man Kam To. We will record all the ideas put forward by Members today and explore with the Shenzhen authorities these ideas and the feasibility of serving earlier notices of flood discharge in our next meeting with them. 　

As regards the Shenzhen River regulation works, as pointed out by Members, the first phase of the works has actually been completed one month ahead of schedule and the second phase is now underway. As for the third phase, we have already approved the preliminary feasibility study and the consultants will design the third phase of the works for us by the end of this year. However, land resumption is relatively difficult. According to our present estimation, it may take about three years to reclaim all the needed lands for the implementation of the third phase of the works. We hope that this phase of the works will commence in early 2001. 　

In conclusion, the Government has a comprehensive "three-tier" plan, as described by Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, and will provide all the necessary resources to mitigate the flooding problems in the NWNT. The plan includes land use management and development controls, proactive flood mitigation measures, and reactive flood mitigation measures. Whilst mitigation of flooding problem takes time and there will not be any quick-fix solutions, results of our efforts are steadily emerging. We expect to complete by the end of 1999 the training of the first 10 kilometres of the most critical sections of the rivers in the NWNT, thereby greatly reducing flooding in the NWNT. We will do our part, and we hope to expedite our flood protection and drainage improvement works with the support and co-operation of the community in such matters as land resumption and getting rid of the habit of casual dumping of refuse and construction wastes. 　

Thank you, Mr Deputy. 　

THE PRESIDENT resumed the chair. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong, you are now entitled to reply and you have four minutes 42 seconds, out of your original 15 minutes. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank all Members who have spoken in support of my motion, especially Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Dr Raymond HO, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin and Mr CHOY Kan-pui. Just now, Mr LAU Wong-fat mentioned that as early as 10 years ago, he already raised the necessity of mitigating of the flooding problem in the New Territories and that he recommended the establishment of a flood prevention team. However, the Government has never paid attention to his advice, and it was only until recently that the Government finally came up with a flooding impact assessment. Hence, it can be seen that the flooding assessment proposed by Dr TSO WONG Man-yin just now was actually first recommended by Mr LAU Wong-fat a long time ago, and the Government's recent response can only be described as "belated awareness". Nevertheless, I am still very glad to see that the Government has started many projects and assessments to prevent the aggravation of the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories. 　

Regarding phase three of the Shenzhen River Regulation Project which Mr CHOY Kan-pui discussed a moment ago, the Government has commented that it would take three years before the project can be implemented. I regret to hear that. Two days ago, some Members and I visited the Shenzhen River Regulation Office. They told us of their hope to implement phase two and phase three of the works all at the same time, explaining that the completion of phase two will not possibly mitigate the flooding problem in the northern New Territories if works on phase three are held up. Therefore, now that the preliminary study report has already been completed, can the Government speed up implemention of the project, so as to enable the residents of the northern New Territories to sleep, live and eat more peacefully? 　

When talking about the recent flooding incidents, the Government said that one reason was the objection to land resumption put up by some people. Actually, under the Land Drainage Ordinance enacted in 1994, the Government has the power to enter private lands to carry out drainage works without the need to obtain the consent of the landowners. This can be considered a stop-gap measure. If this stop-gap measure cannot help solve the recent flooding problem, what is the use of enacting the Ordinance? Has the Government ever invoked the Ordinance to carry out the works required? Is there a problem of manpower shortage? According to the Government, in the dry season, rivers are inspected once a month and in the rainy season, the number of inspections is increased to twice a month. But, as far as I can notice, they have failed to do so, I have inspected many rivers myself, and found that the rivers were still blocked by debris, grass and construction wastes. The recent floods, whether in the western New Territories or Sham Shiu Po in the urban area, were precisely the result of this. I wonder how the Government would explain that.

The Government once said that the flooding problem could be resolved by 2000. But, now it says that we have to wait until 2004. I hope that the Government will not tell us later that we have to wait until 2100. Flooding is a serious problem, not just for the northwest New Territories but also for the whole territory of Hong Kong. Several days ago, I had a lunch appointment with Mr LAU, a Bureau head, but he was also caught up in the flood in Central and was late as a result. This shows that flooding is a big problem, not just for the northwest New Territories, but also for urban Kowloon and urban Hong Kong. I hope that the Government will pay close attention to this problem and work out a solution to it, so that our people can live and work in peace. This is my greatest hope. 　

On our contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, I hope that the Government can really liaise closely with them. We have talked to the Shenzhen River Regulation Office and Shenzhen officials. According to them, if they have better meteorological equipment, they will be able to forecast the amount of rainfall they are about to receive and when their reservoirs will be full. In such a case, they may be able to inform us one or half a day, or at least six or seven hours in advance. To us, this is the best preventive measure. 　

Lastly, I would like to thank all Members once again for their support. Thank you. 　

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr TANG Siu-tong be approved. 　

Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I now adjourn the meeting until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 3 September 1997. 　

Adjourned accordingly at fifteen minutes to Eight o'clock. 　

　

Annex I

　

WRITTEN ANSWER

　

　

Written answer by the Secretary for Education and Manpower to Dr TANG Siu-tang's supplementary question to Question 4　

The number of safety talks organized for secondary schools by the Labour Department (LD) and the Occupational Safety and Health Council (OSHC) respectively is at the appendix.

From 1995 onwards the Occupational Safety and Health Council (OSHC) has taken over from the LD the general publicity and promotional work on occupational safety and health matters. Since then the LD has concentrated on organizing briefings for employers and employees on the contents and implications of new legislation and amendment legislation. Although the Department still provides assistance to the OSHC, it has greatly reduced the number of safety talks organized for schools. On the other hand, the OSHC has prepared activity based teaching kits for more effective promotion of occupational safety and health concepts among the students. These teaching kits have been distributed to all secondary schools in Hong Kong for use by their teachers during classes. The themes of the first two sets of such teaching kits are on summer job safety and general occupational safety and health knowledge. Even though the teaching kits can replace the need for safety talks, the OSHC will still organize such talks for individual schools from time to time upon invitation.

　

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (aa)(ii) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members for the reasons I have given earlier, to disqualify a Commission member from becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (aa)(iii) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members to disqualify a Commission member from becoming a member of the Executive Council.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 13(1) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ia) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from being nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ib) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annexe I to the Basic Law.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move the addition of Paragraph (b)(ic) to clause 13(1) as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This amendment seeks to disqualify a person who has ceased to hold office as a Commission member during the period of four years beginning on the date he ceases to hold office from becoming a Member of the Executive Council.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 13(3) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 20 be amended so that the margin of population deviation can be reduced from the original 25% to 15%, and the reasons for this amendment have already been given earlier by the Administration.

Proposed amendment

Clause 20 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 2 to 20, and 22, as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 23.　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 23(2) be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Clause 23 (see Annex II) 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 23 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedules 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that the term "選委會", be amended as " 選管會", wherever it occurs in schedules 1 and 2. As I said earlier, the reason for this is to avoid any confusion with the title "選舉委員會" (Election Committee).

Proposed amendments

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

Schedule 2 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "ayes"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it. 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Schedule 1. Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): I move that Schedule 1 be further amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is also in line with the spirit of the amendments which I have just proposed, that is, to lay down strict requirements.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr LAU Kong-wah be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN(in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that part II of schedule 1 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members. This is purely a technical amendment.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II)　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Ronald ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam Chairman, I move that Schedule 1 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

This is a consequential amendment given that Members have agreed to add Paragraph (da) to clause 3(5), namely, that a person who is or becomes a member of any national, regional or municipal congress, legislature, assembly or council of any place outside Hong Kong is disqualified from appointment to the Commission.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 1 (see Annex II) 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN ( in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr Ronald ARCULLI be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): The amended Schedule 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think that "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1997 　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question on the motion to you and that is: That the following provisions be included in this legislation.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997　

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question on the motion to you: That the following provisions be included in this legislation.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you. Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (In Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The Provisional Council is now resumed.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bills

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,

the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill　

has passed through the Committee with amendments. I move that this bill be read the third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That

the Electoral Affairs Commission Bill

be read the third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "ayes"?

(Member responded) 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Treasury.

SECRETARY FOR TREASURY (in Cantonese): Madam President,

the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 and

the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 　

have passed through the Committee without amendment. I move that these two bills be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 and the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 be read the Third time and do pass.

Those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

MOTION

PUBLIC BUS SERVICES ORDINANCE　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motion under the Public Bus Services Ordinance. Secretary for Transport.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, I hereby move the motion standing under my name in the Agenda.

Sections 26 to 32 of the Public Bus Services Ordinance stipulate the permitted returns to the public bus companies in an accounting year and other matters ancillary thereto. The permitted return shall be an amount equal to the percentage per annum specified in the franchise on the average net fixed assets of the public bus companies. The sections also lay down the ways under which the operating costs of the bus companies is computed and stipulate that the bus companies shall, upon the request of the Financial Secretary, provide information relevant to the public bus service operations.

The current policy on processing fare increase applications from the bus companies takes various factors into account, particularly the operating costs, revenues, performance of the bus companies and public acceptability; it does not seek to provide for a profit level based on a fixed percentage of the average net fixed assets of the bus companies. On the basis of this policy, we have stated clearly during the negotiations on the new franchise that the profit control scheme would not be incorporated for the bus companies.

There may be doubts that, once profit control is removed, bus companies may manage to seek exorbitant profits through fare increases. In fact, Madam President, at present, no bus companies except the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (1933) Limited (KMB) has any profit control mechanism written down in their franchises. As I have just mentioned, in processing fare increase applications, the Government will carefully consider a number of factors including the companies' financial condition , its quality of service, and the affordability of the public before submitting the proposal to the Executive Council for deliberation.

This mechanism has worked well in recent years. Bus fares have been kept at levels which are acceptable to the public; while bus companies can recover their costs, they are also able to secure reasonable but not excessive returns to maintain their incentive of continued investments and improved services. This mechanism is, of course, by no means perfect and the Government certainly has to keep it under review and make improvements. However, we can say that, in general, the existing mechanism of regulating bus fare adjustments can help us strike a balance between the interests of commuters and those of the bus companies.

Since no other bus companies have any profit control scheme written into their franchises, the KMB's new franchise, recently approved by the Chief Executive in Council to take effect on 1 September 1997, should not have any profit control mechanism either.

According to section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Service Ordinance, a franchise, shall, except where the Legislative Council by resolution excludes the application of sections 26 to 32, be subject to the relevant sections. It is, therefore, necessary to disapply sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 of the Public Bus Services Ordinance, while retaining the following sections:

1. Section 26, which defines the terms used in the sections that follow;
2. Section 26A, which specifies that the financial penalty levies against a bus company shall not be taken into account in ascertaining the operating costs or service related expenditure;
3. Section 30, which enables the government to specify the depreciation rate in respect of the fixed assets used or kept by the company for the purpose of or in connection with its franchise;
4. Section 32, which requires that the bus company shall, upon the request of the Financial Secretary, produce the books and statements of account and other information in respect of the public bus service operations.

Madam President, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the Bills Committee responsible for scrutinizing this motion. At the meeting on 15 August, they put forward many valuable views regarding how we should step up the monitoring of public bus services and improving the existing mechanism for scrutinizing fare increase applications. In the next few months, we shall work hard on these issues. We shall submit the results of our review the Panel on Transport once it is completed.

With these are my remarks, I beg to move the above motion. Thank you, Madam President. 　

The Secretary for Transport moved the following motion: 　

"That the franchise conferring the right on the Kowloon Motor Bus Company(1933) Limited to operate a public bus service on the routes specified in the Schedule of Routes (Kowloon Motor Bus Company) (No. 2) Order 1997 (L.N.394 of 1997) and in any subsequent order made by the Chief Executive in Council shall not, for the entire period of the franchise, be subject to sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 in Part V of the Public Bus Services Ordinance, be approved." 　

PRESIDENT (In Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the franchise conferring the right on the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (1933) Limited to operate a public bus service on the routes specified in the Schedule of Routes (Kowloon Motor Bus Company) (No. 2) Order 1997 (L.N. 394 of 1997) and in any subsequent order made by the Chief Executive in Council shall not, for the entire period of the franchise, be subject to sections 27, 28, 29 and 31 in Part V of the Public Services Ordinance, be approved.

Does any Member wish to speak? Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 8 August 1997, the House Committee set up a Subcommittee to study the resolution to be moved by the Secretary for Transport under section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Services Ordinance. As the chairman of the Subcommittee, I would like to report on our deliberations.

The purpose of the resolution is to seek the approval of the Provisional Legislative Council to exclude the profit control scheme from the new franchise granted by the Chief Executive in Council to the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (KMB). The subcommittee met once with the Administration's official to scrutinize the resolution. During the meeting, government's representatives provided further clarification and explanation on issues of concern to the Subcommittee.

Members of the Subcommittee are concerned that the proposed abolition of the KMB's profit control scheme might have adverse impacts on bus fares, and inquired whether there was any monitoring mechanism to ensure the effective operation of the KMB on one the hand, and the protection of commuters on the other. The Administration was of the view that any new bus franchises must seek a balance between satisfactory services and reasonable returns on investment. As regards the definition of "reasonable returns", the Administration advised that when making assessments, it would consider all kinds of information including the analysis conducted by the relevant financial institutions and other related professionals.

As regards the monitoring mechanism, the Administration explained that a "multi-level approach" had been adopted to monitor the performance of the franchisees. At the management level, the Chief Executive can, in accordance with the Public Bus Services Ordinance, appoint not more than two government officials to the Board of Directors of the franchisee concerned. These officials shall be entitled to attend the meetings of the franchisee and have access to materials concerning the affairs of the franchisee. The franchisee is also required to submit to the Transport Department a planning programme of its operations for the following five years. The Transport Advisory Committee (TAC) and the District Boards will be consulted on such a planning programme. Furthermore, regular meetings at the working level will be held between franchisees and the Transport Department to ensure quality of services.

On bus fares, the Administration advised that both the TAC and the Panel on Transport would be consulted before applications for fare increases were submitted to the Chief Executive in Council for approval; and factors such as operating costs and revenues, performance, public acceptability and so on would be taken into account when processing these applications. The Administration is also considering the need for expanding the membership and terms of reference of the TAC with a view to strengthening its monitoring role. The Administration undertakes to report back to the Panel in about three month's time.

Members are generally supportive of the resolution, but they have emphasized the need for setting up a monitoring mechanism to ensure the regulation of service quality and rates of fare increases of the KMB after the abolition of the profit control scheme.

These are my remarks. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish speak? Mr WONG Siu-yee.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance supports the Government's move to exempt the KMB from the profit control scheme in its new franchise. We are very happy that the Administration is willing to accept the motion moved by the former Legislative Council on 23 April 1997, which sought to exempt the KMB from the profit control scheme in its new franchise. The profit control scheme stipulated in section 5(3)(b) of the Public Bus Services Ordinance (Cap. 230) imposes a ceiling on the permitted returns of the KMB in an accounting year, and this ceiling is set at a certain percentage calculated on the basis of the average net fixed assets of the company in an accounting year. At present, the rate of return specified in the franchise of the KMB is 16%.

We reckon that the KMB's profit control scheme should be abolished for the following reasons. Firstly, since other franchised bus operators are not subject to a profit control scheme, for the sake of fairness, the Administration should not make the KMB an exception. Therefore, under the new franchise, the KMB should no longer not be subject to the restrictions of this scheme.

Secondly, the Administration should consider many other factors when processing fare increase applications from bus companies, particularly, operating costs, revenues, performance and public acceptability. It should not consider the profit level derived from a rate of returns calculated according to the average fixed assets of the bus company concerned. In other words, the profit control scheme as a yardstick for determining the rates of bus fare increases should be removed.

On the other hand, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance is also worried that after the abolition of the profit control scheme, will the Government lose its control in monitoring fare increases by the KMB? And also, will KMB be seeking hefty fare increases for those so-called profit-losing routes? Our worry is that the burden borned by the people may become aggravated. The Government has time and again stressed that the existing mechanism can already adequately monitor KMB's fare increases, one example being the Transport Advisory Committee (TAC), which will conduct public consultation on bus fare increases. However, we must not forget that the TAC is just an advisory body which does not have any power to veto fare increase applications. Therefore, the Progressive Hong Kong Alliance very much hopes that a new mechanism can be put in place as soon as possible, so that the public will not have to pay exorbitant fares because of the abolition of the profit control scheme.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Wing-chan.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, bus services are playing an important part in the daily lives of the public in Hong Kong. The KMB alone has a daily passenger carrying capacity of 2.9 million passenger trips, representing nearly 30% of the total passenger trips made in Hong Kong every day. With the exception of some individuals, the public at large have to rely heavily on this mode of public transport. In Kowloon and the New Territories, the role of KMB services is even more significant. Its fare levels, efficiency, and quality of service all produce a direct impact on the livelihood of the general public.

On 31 of this month, the present franchise of KMB will expire. The Chief Executive in Council has already approved the renewal of KMB's franchise for a period as long as nine years and 11 months. The new franchise will cover 368 routes, and will be exempted from the profit control scheme. In fact, the profit control scheme has long been criticized for being a pretext used by KMB for fare increases in the past. Owing to its far-reaching effects, the new franchise should really strike a balance between "reasonable profits" for the KMB and "the interests of consumers".

Over the years, the KMB has made used of the profit control scheme, a "Sword of Imperial Sanction", to enable it to enjoy huge profits. Since under the profits control scheme, KMB's profits were linked with its average net fixed assets, so it was able to shift all risks to the public; not only this, by expanding its net assets it was also able to apply for fare increases despite huge profits. Now, it has been resolved that the profit control scheme should be excluded from the new franchise of the KMB. Since the profit control scheme is already outdated and cannot protect the interests of the public, the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) and the Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) do support this resolution. Of course, our DAB members will continue to speak on this issue later on.

The FTU is of the opinion that it was very unreasonable in the past for the Government to allow the KMB to reap profits at 16% of its average net fixed assets. In fact, times have changed, and the Government should carefully consider its performance, operating costs, revenue and public affordability when processing fare increase applications from the KMB. If a bus company does not operate well and fails to adhere to its scheduled frequency, and if its services are poor, the Government must scrutinize its application carefully or even turn down its application.

Now, after the profit control scheme is abolished, the Government should still regulate or monitor the levels of fare increases by the KMB, in order to ensure good quality of service. In the past, when the Government was trying to clarify the issue of providing the KMB with reasonable returns, it indicated that it had already considered a series of factors. But, in fact, it did not have to any objective and comprehensive assessment criteria that it could adhere to. Therefore, the Government should put in place an effective mechanism in order to step up its supervision and regulation of the public transport sector. On the one hand, there should be more transparency in the services of the public transport sector and on the other, it should maintain close assessment of KMB services. The Government should also try to introduce market competition so that bus operators would improve on their services and exercise self-restraint over the issue of fare increase. The Government must treat all public bus operators with impartiality, so as to provide consumers with more and better choices.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) has always fought for the abolition of the profit control scheme for the KMB, we are supportive of the Administration's move to delete the profit control scheme for the KMB when granting a new franchise to it. The reason for our support is that, in the past, the profit control scheme was virtually turned into a "profit assurance scheme" for utilities companies, under which they could maximize their profits by deliberately boosting their fixed assets. In the end, the public have to suffer and pay more. Although the government has already abolished the profit control scheme for the KMB, it is still stipulated in the terms of the new franchise that when the Chief Executive in Council deliberate on KMB fares, various factors, including reasonable returns for the KMB, may be taken into account. However, there is not any clear definition for reasonable returns. Mr John CHAN said on a public occasion last month that the 16% permitted return set in the past was actually a reasonable level of returns, and that, therefore even if the profit control scheme was abolished, the existing rates of profits and return should be maintained.

The DAB is worried that if the senior management of the KMB thinks in this way, future fare increases may be beyond the affordability of the public. The DAB would like to reiterate that reasonable returns should not be regarded as guaranteed profits. In case, at least, the KMB incurs losses as a result of poor management and unwise investments, the losses should not be borne by the public.

As regards the mechanism for setting the fares charged by public bus companies, the DAB has opposed at the sittings of the former Legislative Council that bus fares should be determined by the legislature. However, we also insist that an independent and open body made up of members with professional expertise should be formed for this purpose. We can see that many advanced countries have set up independent authorities to monitor public transport services, and results have been very satisfactory. For this reason, the DAB proposes to expand the Transport Advisory Committee and to have its statutory role enhanced, so that it will be able to determine the fares charged by the public transport operators and monitor their services.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport, do you wish to reply?

(The Secretary for Transport indicated that he did not wish to reply)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no"?

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (In Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Motions. Two motions with no legal effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies. Other Members will each have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Rule 37 of the Rules of Procedure, I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First motion, Mr LO Suk-ching.

ASSISTING HONG KONG'S FARMING AND FISHING INDUSTRIES 　

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed and set out under my name on the Agenda.

Madam President, in the wake of economic development in Hong Kong, the local agricultural and fisheries industries are gradually declining. Our emphasis has been put wholly on how to develop Hong Kong into a financial centre, how to develop its industries, and how to expand its services sector. As for the agricultural and fisheries industries, people seem to think that they are simply not worthy of any attention at all. In the case of those who still show some occasional concern, they too lament their own helplessness, saying that the decline of these sunset industries is really an irreversible trend caused by the cycles of economics. There are even some who think that the complete vanishing of these industries in Hong Kong should be no cause for regret at all.

However, despite the small proportion which the agricultural and fisheries industries occupy in the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Hong Kong, their significance to the people's livelihood and thus their contributions to our society should not be ignored; non-staple primary food produce for our daily consumption constitutes a heavy weighting in the compilation of the Consumer Price Index (A). Following the typhoon attack last month, the prices of vegetables went up, and inflation consequently soared upwards by 6%. This shows how great the effect of primary produce is in terms of inflation. If we rely entirely on import to supply the agricultural and fisheries products we need, we will put ourselves in a rather unstable or even dangerous situation which is not conducive to our livelihood. On the other hand, if we can retain a certain proportion for the agricultural and fisheries industries in our economy, we will be able to stabilize prices, and ensure the quantity, quality and sanitation standards of farming and fisheries products up to a certain extent. And, when there is a shortage of import, local production will be able to provide timely relief to market needs, thus safeguarding the people's livelihood to a certain extent. For a long time, the Mainland has been providing us with a steady supply of non-stable agricultural and fisheries produce. This has been a long-standing policy of the Central Government towards Hong Kong in the past. However, with the implementation of economic reforms and market-oriented policies in the Mainland, we can no longer expect China to maintain such a policy of "steady supply at low prices". Therefore, if we do not want to be controlled by others in terms of import prices of non-staple agricultural and fisheries produce, we have to maintain a certain level of production to satisfy market needs and stabilize prices. Moreover, our high-quality produce can also push the Mainland to upgrade the quality of the produce which it exports to us.

Madam President, let us take a closer look at our agricultural and fisheries industries to see whether or not they are really worthless. The answer is no. Last year, local catches amounted to 200 000 tonnes, valued at over $2.1 billion. Besides being sold locally, part of the catches are exported to neighbouring places such as Guangdong, Nanhai, Fujian, Taiwan and Japan. For our consumption of marine fish, 70% are supplied by local catches. In 1995, 840 tonnes of vegetables, some 7 000 pigs and 260 tonnes of poultry were consumed every day. Local farms supplied 30% of the vegetables, about 22% of the poultry and 8% of the pigs mentioned just now. The total value of local primary produce in 1995 stood at over $1.2 billion.

Madam President, I would like to raise a question. Have the agricultural and fisheries industries of Hong Kong really failed to make a greater contribution to our economy? My answer is no. The agricultural and fisheries industries of Hong Kong still have potentials for development, but all will depend on whether or not there is any source of assistance from a long-term policy. Regrettably, the former British Hong Kong Administration has failed to draw up any forward-looking policies for these industries and simply let them run their own course. Worse still, it even put in place some public and economic policies which directly or indirectly ruined the development of these industries. The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should now formulate appropriate policies to promote the development of the agricultural and fisheries industries according to Article 119 of the Basic Law.

(I) Fisheries Industry

Since the mid-1970s, the fisheries industries of Hong Kong have experienced drastic changes. Because of excessive exploitation of marine resources, coupled with the effect of large-scale infrastructural projects and environmental pollution, the marine ecology of Hong Kong and Guangdong coastal waters has been damaged seriously, thus leading to a shortage of marine resources in these coastal waters. Fishermen who fish along the coastal waters by using small horsepower vessels have been seriously affected. If they do not want to cease their business, they will have to make a change to mariculture, or try to take out loans to buy large mechanized vessels for deep-sea fishing.

1. Mariculture industry

At present, there are about 1 700 operators in the mariculture business in Hong Kong, scattered around 26 mariculture zones along the coast. They have never received any assistance from the Government, and, like those fishermen operating in coastal waters they too have been affected in recent years by the pollution caused by infrastructural projects and partially treated sewage. Since they seldom receive any compensation, it has proved difficult for them to restore their production to any sizeable level.

2. Replacement of deoxygenated layer

At present, the location of a mariculture raft cannot be altered without permission. However, in two or three years' time, the layer of sludge suspended in the water under a raft will become deoxygenated and thus prove unfavourable for mariculture. So, I propose that the Government should allow the relocation of a mariculture raft once every three years and assist fishermen to pump away the layers of deoxygenated sludge so as to revitalize the mariculture environment. It is most desirable for the Government to allow a mariculture operator to set up two mariculture zones, A and B, which he can use on rotation. Whenever the water quality of zone A becomes bad because of red tide attacks or seabed dredging, the raft can be towed to zone B for operation. And, about three years later, when the marine ecology of zone A is restored, the raft can then be towed back to zone A.

3. Enhancement of scientific research and technological support

Over the years, the Agriculture and Fisheries Department has never offered any help to mariculture operators on how they can maintain and boost their output. However, since it is very difficult for individual operators to research into technical improvements and other related technological areas, assistance from the Government is imperative. I propose that the Government should allocate more funds to enhance the research on the mariculture industry. In the long-run, the mariculture industry of Hong Kong may as well extend itself to the coastal regions of Guangdong and Fujian so as to make good use of the marine resources there. That way, they can operate on the basis of "shop at the front and factory at the back", a pattern currently adopted by land-based industries. By making good use of quality fries cultivated in Hong Kong, our mariculture technology, management skills, capitals and sales networks, we can actually start with Hong Kong as a base in our attempt to develop our mariculture industry along the coast of China. This is no wild imagination, for some mariculturists of Hong Kong have already started to engage themselves in joint ventures along the coast of Guangdong.

4. Cultivation of marine resources

The Government should conduct more research and assess the damage done to the marine ecology by infrastructural projects and sewage. It should also implement some schemes with the aim of revitalizing the marine environment and cultivating more marine resources. It this connection, expediting an artificial reef plan is a pressing priority. In the long term, the Government should allocate more funds for the purpose of studying local marine ecology, so that positive proposals for the development of the fisheries industry of Hong Kong can be worked out.

5. Problem of deckhands

Since nowadays in Hong Kong, fewer and fewer people wants to work in the fisheries industry, labour shortage has become a frequent source of frustration experienced by local fishermen and thus restricted their productivity. It is estimated that about 7 000 deckhands of this kind are required in Hong Kong. I hope that at this time when Hong Kong is reunified with the motherland, the Government of the SAR will negotiate with Guangdong as soon as possible, so that the quota could be increased. It is also hoped that the specified scope of duties for deckhands can be extended beyond deep-sea fishing only.

6. Development of ocean fishing

There are two most essential resources in Hong Kong, namely, people and the sea. But, Hong Kong has yet to fully utilise its marine resources, for our harbour-oriented economy has not led to a corresponding development of the fisheries industries. People always have a misconception that since Hong Kong is so small and so densely populated, there is not much room for the development of the fisheries industry. What is more, a mere mention of the fisheries industry will lead people to conjure up pictures of Hong Kong as a tiny fishing village. We must note that ocean fishing will provide a lot of development prospects for the local fisheries industry, only that this would require a lot of determination and strong assistance on the part of the Government.

1. The foreign relationship aspect

   To begin with, local fisherman operating in the high seas are now faced with competition from the fishing fleet of neighbouring regions and countries. Coastal nations have one after another designated their 200-mile economic waters zones and they have put in place protectionist fishing policies, thus adding to the difficulties experienced by our ocean fishing fleet. The rising awareness of marine environmental protection has placed fishing in international waters under futher restrictions. And, sometimes, our fishing vessels may be detained for entering the territorial waters of other nations by accident, or for breaking fishery co-operation agreements, thus requiring our sovereign power to negotiate for their release. In this particular aspect, if we are to develop ocean fishing, we should reach bilateral fishing agreements with the governments concerned, or at least reach non-governmental co-operation agreements with fishermen of other countries. In the past, it was very hard to urge the British Hong Kong Administration and British Government to do so. It is hoped that after the reunion, the SAR Government will assist our fishermen in solving these problems.

2. Encouraging the construction of fishing vessels

   At the same time, the Government should give encouragement and render assistance to those fishermen who want to construct ocean-going fishing vessels or to procure additional facilities. The Government should provide strong assistance to fishermen in terms of financing. At present, the lending capitals of the "Fisheries Development Loan Fund" amount to $7 million only; this is grossly insufficient. Two loan applications have just been approved, with $3 million is granted to each application, making up a total of $6 million. Following this, the fund is almost exhausted. At current prices, a deep-sea fishing vessel of a length of more than thirty metres will cost about $5 million to $10 million. If interests for boat construction loans are charged at the same expensive rate, as personal loans in general, at 5% per annum, for example, a loan tenure of just four years will require a total repayment of $7.5 million. Such a burden is quite beyond the means of the fishermen.

3. Fishing port facilities

   At present, Hong Kong does not even have a fishing port to provide repairing service and unloading for ocean fishing vessels. What is more, fishing vessels measuring longer than 100 feet which want to enter typhoon shelters are subject to numerous restrictions. What has the Government to offer to our fishing fleet? If we want to develop our ocean fishing fleet, we will have to consider the idea of building more facilities and implementing the policies concerned.

   To sum up, in order to develop ocean fishing, the Government should enhance the training of personnels who can master the techniques of navigation, engineering technology, communications, trawling, storage of fish, processing of marine products and so on. It should also encourage the people to invest in constructing fishing vessels; improve navigational and communications facilities; upgrade fishing gears; develop new fishing styles; enhance experimental research on fisheries; develop fish farms; expand overseas fisheries bases and strengthen sales outlets for marine products.

(II) Agriculture

Arable lands account for 7.2% of the total area of Hong Kong, but most of them have been abandoned. The development of new towns in the New Territories has gradually eroded the arable lands in Hong Kong. Because of the poor maintenance of irrigation systems, a lot of arable lands can neither be irrigated nor drained, and have thus become derelict. In Hong Kong where land resources are so valuable, it is very regrettable to see such a state of affairs. Twenty years ago, the Agriculture and Fisheries Department started to provide ploughing services to help farmers redevelop fallow lands, but the results were not very satisfactory. The main reason is that the problem of irrigation has not been solved and that the Government has not provided any active assistance to the development of agriculture. The infrastructural facilities provided by the Agriculture and Fisheries Department have been minimal.

1. Wholesale markets for flowers

The profits derived from farming flowers in Hong Kong are very high. However, owing to the lack of active support in the past, there has been a severe shortage of flower markets in Hong Kong. About fifty years ago, after the fresh flower wholesale market at Boundary Street was reconstructed to become the Fa Hui Park, the wholesale market has been relocated to the road side outside the Park. Even now, there is still no permanent site for the flower wholesale sector. I propose that the Government should allocate land for the construction of a wholesale flower market. 　

2. Plan for the control on livestock wastes 　

For the poultry and livestock industry, since the implementation of the livestock wastes control scheme in 1994, a great number of pig and chicken farms have had to close down. Now, only about 800 such farms still remain, which means that around 70% to 80% of the farms have had to cease business. This situation has been caused by the 50:50 disposal standard, which farmers find very hard to meet. Therefore, the Government should relax its control. It should assist the development of livestock keeping zones, and centralize the processing of livestock wastes so that costs could be lowered while the goal of environmental protection could be achieved. 　

3. Appropriate relaxation of foreign labour importation 　

Farming industries for poultry and livestock and the like are obnoxious in nature. Very few local workers want to join these industries. The failure of the Employees Retraining Board to retrain workers for the pig-keeping industry is a very good example. In order to solve the labour shortage problem experienced by the livestock industry, we should increase the quota of foreign labour importation appropriately.

(III) A functional constituency seat for the agricultural and fisheries industries in the Legislative Council 　

Lastly, in view of the importance of the agricultural and fisheries industries, I urge the SAR Government to add a functional constituency seat for the agriculture and fisheries industries in new Legislative Council, which could then assist the Government in formulating appropriate policies for these industries.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO, please stop speaking now. 　

Mr LO Suk-ching moved the following motion: 　

"That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to formulate a long-term farming and fishing policy, so as to support the development of farming and fishing industries in the territory." 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is "That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to formulate a long-term farming and fishing policy, so as to support the development of farming and fishing industries in the territory." 　

Council shall now proceed to a debate. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr LAU Wong-fat. 　

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, economic restructuring, high land prices, shortage of labour, as well as abundant and cheap supplies of agricultural and fisheries produce from the Mainland have all adversely affected the local agricultural and fisheries industries, thus plunging them into difficulties and causing them their decline. This is indeed a case which warrants our concern. 　

It is not healthy for a place to rely totally on other places for the supply of the agricultural produce it needs. Therefore, we must plan ahead, and we should not leave the agricultural and fisheries industries entirely on their own, for this would put our food supplies and food prices entirely under external control. 　

Despite the rapid development and increasing urbanization of Hong Kong, our agricultural and fisheries industries are still playing a useful role, particularly in providing us with quality produce. From this, we can see that for as long as we can identify a correct approach and back it up with policy support from the Government, our agricultural and fisheries industries can still have bright prospects, despite the many unfavourable factors standing in their way. 　

The Government has obviously failed to give these industries the high degree of attention which they deserve. The Government should formulate long-term policies with far-sighted vision, so as to help these industries. In particular, it should enhance its support in respect of technological improvements and economic efficiency. It should also take proactive steps to open more mariculture zones, where the quality of water is to be placed under strict control. Moreover, it should actively promote the agricultural land rehabilitation scheme. Most important of all, the Government should provide more financial assistance to these industries by offering easily available concessionary loans to people who wish to join these industries. That way, we will be able to revive our agricultural and fisheries industries. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui. 　

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, on the issue of how to assist Hong Kong's farming and fisheries industries, I would like to focus on the problem of deckhands. 　

In recent years, Hong Kong fishing vessels engaged in fish capture have been facing a shortage of deckhands. In the past, whole families of fishermen used to live on dwelling boats and shed houses, and were always ready for fish capture voyages. This provided the labour and support required by the fish capture industry. Over the past twenty years, fishermen have gradually moved to live on land, and most of their children have had the chance to receive formal education. As a result, the children of many fishermen, after attaining a high level of literacy and professional training, have become reluctant to engage in fish capture with their parents. They have chosen to earn their living on land instead, thus leading to a shortage of new blood for the fish capture industry. What is more, the prosperous economic development of Hong Kong, which provides better employment opportunities in large numbers, has lured a lot of experienced fishermen to take up various occupations on land, such as sea-land transportation, cargo ship loading/unloading and shipping transfer and so on. 　

The general labour shortage in Hong Kong has aggravated the problem of labour shortage for the fish capture industry. Many vessel owners have failed to obtain sufficient deckhands. It seems that the Labour Department cannot be of much help to them. 　

Fortunately, the policy of opening and reforms adopted by China has provided a timely supply of labour to fishermen in Hong Kong. "Inland deckhands", as fisheries workers from China are referred to, are able to meet the demand of local fishermen. After a hard struggle staged by fishermen associations of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong and the Guangdong authorities finally reached an agreement in 1995. The British Hong Kong Administration eventually allowed 3 500 Mainland deckhands to work in Hong Kong waters. Their scope of work is limited to sales of catches, allowing them to supplement daily provisions, repair of machinery and shelter from winds and so on. They are not permitted to stay in Hong Kong for more than seven days. Moreover, these "transit deckhands" have also reached a tacit agreement with vessel owners that they are not allowed to go ashore unless they have to sell fish at markets. The entry of these deckhands into Hong Kong is to be of a stopover nature only, and they have to report to the Immigration Department for each entry and departure. So far, no offences or crimes have been recorded in relation to fishing vessels entering Hong Kong waters with Mainland deckhands. 　

When the agreement was reached in 1995, only 1 500 fishing vessels registered their demand for deckhands, but, at that time, about 1 000 fishing vessels were out of Hong Kong for fish capture and could not return in time for registration. At present, there are some 4 000 fishing vessels in Hong Kong. It is estimated more than 7 000 deckhands are required. The current quota is thus obviously insufficient. When the policy on Mainland deckhands was first introduced, only fishing vessels of over 25 metres long were entitled to a share of the quota. Therefore, other small- and medium-sized fishing vessels, delivery boats and mariculture farms were not entitled to that. Because of labour shortage, fishery production in Hong Kong has been seriously hindered. As a result, the people have to bear high fish prices. 　

With the return of the sovereignty over Hong Kong to China, those livelihood issues which were neglected because of Sino-British disputes should now be given the attention they deserve. I very much hope that the Government of the Hong Kong SAR can appreciate the serious labour shortage encountered by local fishermen, and conduct negotiations with the Guangdong authorities as soon as possible, with a view to increasing the quota for Mainland deckhands, so that all licensed fishing vessels in Hong Kong having registration accounts in the Mainland, be they large or small, can have a share of the quota. This will relieve fishermen of their worries and help them concentrate on production. This will, undoubtedly, greatly benefit the development of the fisheries industry of Hong Kong. Madam President, I want to stress that there is an obvious difference between Mainland deckhands and imported labour in general. The reason is that the former's scope of duties is basically limited to Chinese waters and usually, they are not allowed to land and will not take up our housing, medical and social welfare resources. Most importantly, it must be admitted that very few local workers are willing to work as deckhands. Therefore, the increase in the deckhand quota will not affect the local employment market. 　

Madam President, the recent large-scale police operations to round up "illegal workers" working on fishing vessels have seriously affected the normal operation of our fishermen. In most of these prosecution cases, the workers concerned are all registered as deckhands in China. They are neither "illegal workers" nor "illegal immigrants". I urge that before a new agreement on "deckhand" quota is reached, the Government should immediately terminate these operations which have caused disruption to the normal operation of fishermen. 　

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam. 　

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am not a fisherman. But over the past 10 years, I have been working for them. Fishermen in Hong Kong bring us 190 000 tonnes of catches every year, entertaining 70% of our marine fish consumption. Seafood has become an integral part of our life. While we enjoy our seafood, has it ever occurred to us that fishermen are now struggling desperately for their survival? 　

In recent years, the industries and commerce of Hong Kong have been advancing incessantly towards modernisation. The infrastructural development, reclamation and seabed projects like sand and mud dredging which accompany this process of modernization have seriously degraded marine ecology, making it hard for inshore fishermen to earn their living. In fact, the fishing industry in Hong Kong is now facing a destructive threat. Although Hong Kong has started out as a fishing port, its fishing industry has now become a sunset industry. This had really given us cause for regret and is very ironical.

On the other hand, the economic reforms in China have enabled fishermen in the Mainland to hoard up enough capital for the purpose of developing the fishing industry. The regional authorities along the coast have also actively offered huge logistic support to fishermen by supplying them with a lot of non-staple food, raw ice, fuel and so on. And, with cheap labour and their proximity to fishing grounds, fishing industry in the Mainland has been able to enjoy much reduced costs yet enhanced competitiveness. This has exerted even greater pressure on the fishermen in Hong Kong. 　

Fishermen in Hong Kong who want to fish in Chinese waters have to tackle two problems. First, for the sake of protecting marine resources, some inshore Chinese waters with abundant fish resources are closed to fishing activities during certain seasons of the year. Second, the names of the crew of Hong Kong fishing vessels must be registered with the Chinese authorities before such vessels can fish in Chinese waters, and the fishermen concerned must unload part of their catches at the ports of China. 　

These unfavourable factors have reduced the scope of survival for the inshore fishermen of Hong Kong. Therefore, the only way out is to develop ocean fishing, which requires advanced communication systems, sonar facilities, mechanized trawling facilities, the latest satellite positioning systems and so on. Without any support and assistance from the Government, it will be impossible to develop the ocean fishing industry. 　

The fact is that I have been receiving endless complaints from fishermen, who grumble that the Government has been extremely unconcerned with the difficulties they confront. One example is that when a fisherman applies for a low-interest loan from the Fisheries Department, even though his past records are very good, it will still take more than one and a half years before his application could be approved, and in the meantime, the effect of inflation alone will have increased his costs considerably. In the case of an ocean fishing vessel of 1 000 horsepower, for example, for a fishing voyage of 20 to 30 days, the costs will be about $200,000. It follows that an average monthly catch worth more than $300,000 will be required for the fisherman to reach a break even point. 　

Since the procedures governing an application for a low-interest loan from the Government are very complicated and the terms and conditions are harsh, most fishermen have no alternative but to borrow money from banks and financial companies at high interest. This increases the costs borne by fishermen, thus adding to their difficulties.

At present, it is undeniable that more and more young people are reluctant to join the fishing industry, the operation of which is still very traditional and conservative. Modernization of the trade and the employment of Mainland dockhands have thus become pressing priorities for the fishing industry. This will also enable fishermen to maintain their living. However, at present, the quota governing the employment of Mainland deckhands can hardly meet the demand of the fishing industry. So, administratively and technically, the Government must put in place some specific and efficient arrangements to deal with the quota allocation of Mainland deckhands, so as to benefit vessel owners in general, small- and medium-sized vessel owners in particular. 　

The fishing industry is the last remaining self-supporting industry in Hong Kong. The decline of this industry will not only lead to soaring seafood prices but will also affect the prospects of some related businesses on land. For example, fishing gears suppliers, the shipbuilding industry, the machinery industry, fuel suppliers, the refrigerating industry and even the non-staple food and catering industries on land will all be affected. The places likely to be worst-hit are the Southern District of Hong Kong, Shau Kei Wan, Tai Po, Sai Kung and so on. Businesses on land will also be indirectly affected. Therefore, as far as this problem is concerned, the Government cannot always use non-intervention as a pretext for failing to take action. If the Government would continue leaving things as they are, it will in fact be behaving like a person who just casually throws out one single life buoy to a whole lot of people struggling desperately in the rough sea. 　

Indeed, we can no longer allow the fishing industry to remain in its traditional ways of operation, nor can we force the younger generations to join this traditional occupation. Therefore, it has become an unshirkable responsibility and a pressing priority for the Government to develop a modernized fishing industry and implement totally new policies to assist people to join this new trade. 　

Madam President, with these words, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, though the number of people involved in the agriculture and fisheries industries in Hong Kong is not very big, the contributions of the trade to local economy are still substantial. In 1985, the total output value of the agriculture and fisheries industry was $1.2 billion at the prices of that year, and this was increased to $1.6 billion by 1994. Notwithstanding this, however, the Hong Kong Government has all along rendered very little assistance towards the development of the agriculture and fisheries industries. What the Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) has provided are just infrastructural and support services, such as irrigation and drainage systems, new farming techniques, development proposals and so on. On the other hand, the costs of production for farmers have increased since the implementation of the livestock waste control scheme, thus leading to a decrease in livestock supply in recent years. The Hong Kong SAR Government should consider the idea of providing technical support to farmers regarding waste disposals, such as the installation of septic tanks and so on. Furthermore, farmers, especially those in the Northwest New Territories, are frequently battered by rainstorms and floods in summer, and severe damage has been inflicted on their agricultural produce and livestocks. The Government should really take up this matter seriously. In fact, this issue seems to cast a complementing effect on the motion on flooding which I am going to move later on. However, I must say that this is merely a coincidence and I have not had any previous agreement with Mr LO. Some people may think that we are trying to create an impact for our allies in the New Territories, but this is simply not the case. 　

As regards the fisheries industry, it should be noted that marine fish are one of the most important sources of primary produce for Hong Kong. The fishing population is estimated at 21 600 and there are about 1 550 licensed mariculturists operating in designated mariculture zones. In recent years, however, the fisheries industry has been plunged into considerable difficulties, largely due to the aggravation of environmental pollution, while mariculture zones are frequently affected by red tide and other forms of pollution. Worse still, fishing folks who operate in the high seas may occasionally enter the territorial waters of other countries inadvertently, and one recent example is that several fishermen have been detained by the Philippines Government and may even face prosecution because of this. I think both the SAR Government and the Chinese Foreign Ministry should try to help these fishermen. What is even more important is that the SAR Government should raise the awareness of local fishing folks of the boundaries of territorial waters of other countries and advise them to observe the international conventions on the fisheries industry.

In short, the SAR Government should consider the following points when it is formulating long-term agriculture and fisheries policies. 　

Firstly, environmental protection policies should be deliberated in conjunction with agriculture and fisheries policies. Communications between the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) and the AFD should be strengthened. The EPD should take into account the practical difficulties faced by the agriculture and fisheries industries when it is formulating environmental protection policies. 　

Secondly, the Government should encourage university research centres to conduct more researches on ways of increasing the productivity of the agriculture and fisheries industries, such as the manufacture of fertilizers, insecticides and feeds for livestock and fish and so on. 　

Thirdly, the Government should expedite actions on improving the drainage systems of the New Territories so as to reduce the adverse effects of flooding on farmlands and fish ponds. 　

Fourthly, the Government could adopt a more flexible approach to deal with the importation of labour for the agriculture and fisheries industries because at present they are suffering from an increasingly acute manpower shortage. 　

Fifthly, the Government should provide technical and financial assistance to develop ocean fishing. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

　

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Liberal Party supports the motion today. We agree that the Government should formulate a long-term agricultural and fisheries policy. Regarding this, we have three specific points to make. 　

First, as regards the fisheries industry. On the existing low-interest loan scheme offered by the Government for financing fishing vessels, we are of the view that the eligibility criteria should be relaxed. As we understand it, under the existing loan scheme, the fishing vessel of an applicant must meet some specific requirements, and loan approval is based on the size and functions of the vessel, and on whether it is used for fish capture. Madam President, when we talk about the fisheries industry today, we should not just focus on fish capture or mariculture alone. Should fish transportation be regarded as ancillary to the fisheries industry even if it does not concern with fish capture and mariculture? I think the answer should be "yes". In fact, nowadays, many Hong Kong industries such as the manufacturing industry has relocated their production plants to Mainland China. Though their Hong Kong offices are just involved in the import and export of goods, this has not affected Hong Kong's status as a base for exporting industrial products. We know that as a result of pollution and excessive fish capture in inshore areas, some fishermen have to go to the seas far away for fish capture. But, is fish capture necessarily the sole objective of a fishing vessel which makes a voyage to the far-off seas? In many Southeast Asian countries, or even in countries near the Indian Ocean, there may be places suitable for mariculture. But, they may not allow Hong Kong people to operate mariculture business there because these countries want to protect their own resources. So, even if the fishermen of Hong Kong do not capture fish, but simply buy fish from other countries and transpsort bring them back to Hong Kong in their vessels, what is wrong about that? I opine that this is also one way of developing the fisheries industry. Therefore, when the Government is processing loan applications from fishermen, it should not limit its consideration merely to the fish capturing capability of such vessels. I am of the view that those people who purchase fish from other countries and transport them back to the Hong Kong are also contributing to the development of our fisheries industry. 　

Second, we maintain that the Government should also consider the idea of devoting resources to the development of artificial reefs as a means of maintaining the supply of fish. As we all know, excessive fish capturing will affect the reproductive capacity of fish. In fact, many precedents have shown that the installation of a well-designed artificial reef on the seabed will create a good environment conductive to fish reproduction, and it has been demonstrated by concrete evidence that this will help increase the quantity of fish reproduced in the location concerned. Research done by some countries has even revealed that we can create an artificial reef simply by depositing a vehicle tyre upon the seabed. It may not be as simple as this in reality. But, since there are so many construction wastes, and so much concrete in Hong Kong, is it possible for us to make use of these materials to construct some artificial reefs in a particular location? I think this will make our seabed more conducive to fish reproduction.

Third, as regards agriculture. I think that, very much unlike the fisheries industry, agriculture does not only involve the question of support. We have, therefore, some reservations about the term "support" as used in the motion. We do feel that the agricultural industry in Hong Kong is indeed on the decline, and such a decline is as inevitable as the shift of some non-sophisticated industries to other countries or Mainland China. The reasons for such a decline include high wages and high land prices in Hong Kong; and, what makes the agricultural industry most different from the fisheries industry is that the former has to take up land, which is the most valuable form of resources in Hong Kong. So, we should not over-simplify the situation by saying that we have to preserve agriculture and reserve arable lands for the purpose, because this may not be in line with policy of making the most efficient use of land in Hong Kong. Instead, if the farmers of some unsophisticated, and labour- and land-intensive types of agricultural produce want to move their operations to the Mainland, we should let them do what they like. We should support or preserve the farming of some up market agricultural produce which requires high technology, such as the farming of precious flowers and some greenhouse vegetables similar to those Japanese imports sold at our supermarkets. These are highly profitable commercial crops, and if we devote more resources to them, we will be able to increase the yield per square foot or per acre just by using a very small amount of land. I think this is better than simply encouraging agricultural operations or preserving arable land, because this will enable us to make full use of our limited resources. 　

Of course, conclusively speaking, apart from these three points, I do have other opinions. But, I am just mentioning these three points only. I hope the Government would consider my suggestions. 　

With these remarks, I support motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NGAN Kam-chuen. 　

MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, vegetables and meat are the major non-staple foods of the people of Hong Kong and the prices of vegetables, in particular, would affect inflation rate. Let us look at the Consumer Price Index for July released last week as an example: the series of downpours in July have pushed up vegetable prices by as much as 50% to 60%, and led to an inflation rate of 6.5% for that month, representing an increase of 1.1% over the rate of June. From this, we can see the close relationship between the supply of vegetables and the people's livelihood. 　

The 1996 statistics show that the people of Hong Kong consume about 890 tonnes of rice, 940 tonnes of vegetables, 7 540 pigs, 360 cattle, 270 tonnes of poultry and 1 680 tonnes of fruit every day. Of all these, 47% are imported from China. However, local farms are still able to supply 26% of the vegetables, 23% of the live poultry and 7% of the live pigs required by the local people. This shows that local farms still possess a certain degree of productivity and their contributions towards the stabilization of non-staple foods supply to Hong Kong cannot be denied.

Some have even thought that since most of the non-staple foods which we need can be imported from China, there is no need for Hong Kong to retain its farming and fishing industries. But, has it ever occurred to them that mainland supplies may decrease as more and more rural population move to the cities to look for jobs consequent upon the country's policy of reform and opening? Therefore, Hong Kong should get prepared beforehand, and support the local farming and fisheries industries, so as to ensure a steady supply of non-staple foods. 　

The farming and fisheries industries have made great contributions to the local economy and people's livelihood in the past. But the effect of economic restructuring has cast great limitations on their development. In particular, under the former colonial administration, the industries were not given any attention at all. The colonial government had not given any direct subsidies to the local farming and fisheries industries, nor did it seek to protect them from the impact of market forces. Although the Government has provided the industries with some infrastructural and technical support services, these have not been enough. The reason is that without a long-term policy on agriculture and fisheries, the Government has only resorted to a piece-meal approach to the problems. 　

In addition, Government departments have all along clung to a mentality of "minding their own business". They only bother to finish their own share of the work, and neglect the need for co-ordination with other departments. For example, there has been a lack of co-ordination between the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau and the Economic Services Bureau, and this has caused unnecessary frustration among farmers. Take the livestock and poultry industry as an example. On the ground that livestock wastes would cause pollution to the environment, the Government imposed the livestock waste control scheme in 1994, requiring all livestock farms to install and operate waste processing systems to prevent pollution. As a result, the number of livestock farms fell from between 9 000 to 10 000 at the peak of the industry to fewer than 1 000 at present. It is good to protect the environment but the Government should not thus stifle the development of the livestock industry. 　

The farming and fisheries industries seem to be on the decline, but, in fact, they still have room for development, especially in respect of high-technology agriculture and horticulture. If the Hong Kong SAR Government could inject more resources to explore and develop high-technology produce, it will certainly bring a light of hope to the local agricultural industry. For instance, local hotels have to import high-quality vegetables from abroad. If the Agriculture and Fisheries Department could help farmers introduce the techniques of growing these vegetables, it will enhance the farmers' competitive edge. As regards the horticultural industry, the Government has never considered it as part of the local agricultural industry and has given it no support. There is not even a wholesale market for fresh flowers. For years, the Government has turned a deaf ear to the repeated requests of the industry for such a wholesale market. If the Government could allocate a plot of land for the construction of a fresh flower wholesale market, it will not only promote the development of the local horticultural industry but will also benefit the flower export industry of China.

Furthermore, following the changeover of the sovereignty over Hong Kong, Hong Kong's ties with the Mainland, especially with the Guangdong Province, have become increasingly important. Many big cities in China have been engaged in "vegetable basket" projects. Earlier, the mover of this motion, Mr LO Suk-ching, has also talked about extending our fisheries industry into the coastal areas of Guangdong, and that the farming and fisheries industries of Hong Kong should actively work with their counterparts in China in promoting mutual development, so as to ensure a steady supply of high-standard foodstuffs to Hong Kong. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Leung-sing. 　

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the farming and fisheries industries have once played a definite role in the economic development of Hong Kong. In 1970, the output of the industries accounted for 2% of the our GDP. But with the growth of the local economy, and the resultant rise in labour costs, these industries, just like the local manufacturing industry, have gradually lost their competitiveness. Their proportion in the GDP continues to decline, dropping to 1% in 1980 and then to 0.1% today. At the same time, other industries such as the financial and services industries have been growing rapidly. It should thus be said that the changing scene of the farming and fisheries industries in the whole industrial structure represents the pattern governing economic development, and is also a sign of social and economic progress. 　

Many people think that scarcity of land, especially arable land, labour shortage and high wages would not have made it advantageous for Hong Kong to develop its the farming and fisheries industries. This argument has caused many controversies. Evolving from a fishing port and then through the stage of processing industry, Hong Kong has now developed into an economy with emphasis on financial and other kinds of services. From the viewpoint of comparative advantage, some argue, Hong Kong's only alternative is to continue to consolidate and strengthen its financial services while at the same time develop high value-added businesses. It is therefore not advisable to revert to the industrial structure and production mode of the 1970s. 　

As some colleagues have pointed out just now, the development of the local farming and fisheries industries is limited by many objective constraints, coupled with the fact that fewer and fewer young people are willing to join these industries. But, we have to admit that these industries still constitute a part of the local economy, supplying fresh foodstuffs to the people of Hong Kong every day. Therefore, it will indeed pay off many times over for the Government to conduct a comprehensive review and formulate a long-term policy on the future development of these industries. 　

Over the years, other than providing infrastructural and technical support, the Government has never directly subsidized the farming and fisheries industries. It is my opinion that these industries are still capable of creating the conditions necessary for their continued development. However, in the face of the competition posed by cheap imported fisheries and agricultural produce, scarcity of land and labour, and also the rising standards of environmental protection, the local farming and fisheries industries must bring in sophisticated technology, modern methods of farming and trawling, and advanced mariculture techniques, with the objective of yielding, fresh fisheries and agricultural produce of a high quality. Only by so doing can these industries survive and develop amidst keen competitions. Madam President, since the Hong Kong SAR has just been established, there is a need to maintain social stability in this peculiar period. Therefore, I agree that resources permitting, the Government should provide a certain degree of support and assistance to these industries to enhance their productivity. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, besides directly providing 30 000 jobs, the local agricultural and fishery industries have a definite contribution towards the supply of agricultural foodstuffs needed by Hong Kong. The significance of locally-produced agricultural foodstuffs is evidenced by the sizeable proportion which they occupy in the people's total consumption: 20% for fresh vegetables; 20% for live poultry and over 70% for fresh marine fish. 　

Besides supplying fresh and quality agricultural foodstuffs to the people, local agricultural and fisheries industries also serve to stabilize the prices of agricultural foodstuffs. However, these industries have for long experienced immense difficulties in their operation. One reason is of course the changes in market circumstances, but the Government's failure to draw up a long-term policy on agriculture and fisheries is certainly a major cause. No doubt, the Government has put in place some assistance schemes, but, it is highly questionable whether these better-than-nothing policies can actually work. A comprehensive review is therefore required. I have read the chapter on the agricultural and fisheries industries in the 1997 Yearbook published by the Hong Kong Government brought forth and I shall discuss three of the agricultural and fisheries policies by the Government.

One chapter mentions that an agricultural land rehabilitation scheme was launched in 1988 by the Agricultural and Fisheries Department, and in the last sentence of the paragraph concerned, it is concluded that the scheme has been in good progress. But, almost a decade after the scheme was launched, the Government has still failed to give any statistical evidence in the Yearbook to indicate how well the scheme is working. 　

Besides, the Government also says that the Agricultural and Fisheries Department has developed a non-pollutant, odourless and effluent-free pig-on-litter method of pig rearing. The paragraph on this method is very long, but it makes no mention of how such a method can improve the environment and how it can benefit the pig rearing industry specifically. If this method is really so favourable, I really wonder why the Government has refrained from giving an account of its merits. 　

Thirdly, the Government says that three low-interest loan funds are available to farmers and from the inception of these funds to the end of 1996, a total loan amount of $300 million has been extended to farmers. As regards the fisheries industry, the Government also says that it administers four funds, and, again, from the inception of these funds to the end of 1996, a total loan amount of $310 million has been extended to fishermen. The way that the Government presents the lending circumstances for these loans is very misleading. We cannot see how much has been provided as loans in 1996 or 1995; and whether there was any increase or decrease. We also cannot see the effect. The Government has only given a general description of the situation between the inception of the loans and the present. In fact, the $300 million mentioned may be the amount which covers two or three decades. 　

Concerning the motion moved by the Honourable LO Suk-ching today, I, as well as the Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood, agree that there is a need for supporting the development of the local farming and fisheries industries, but, obviously, cost-effectiveness is also a major factor that needs to be considered. The development of the farming and fisheries industries involves land use, application of resources, financial policies, training of workers, imported labour, the introduction of new technology and many other factors. I suggest that the Government should allocate funds to commission consultancy to conduct an independent study, so as to formulate an effective policy to support the long-term development of these industries. 　

Thank you, Madam President. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him. 　

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, Hong Kong is surrounded by the sea and possesses rich marine resources. Since Hong Kong was a fishing port even before its inception, the agricultural and fisheries industries can be described as the most historical industry in Hong Kong. With its development from a tiny fishing port into a metropolis, Hong Kong has proceeded to a stage of economic restructuring. The secondary and tertiary industries have been developing very rapidly, and, this has dealt a heavy blow to primary industries like the agricultural and fisheries industries, which now experience "a lack of new blood". There is a very popular misconception that the agricultural and fisheries industries have become sunset industries, because by relying on direct imports from China and other countries, we need not make any more efforts to assist the agricultural and fisheries industries. The Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) is of the opinion that such a misconception is attributable to the long-standing neglect and lack of a long-term policy on the part of the Government. 　

Madam President, Hong Kong has long been known as a gourmet's heaven, with cuisines of all countries available. What is more, the Hong Kong people are also famous for their "gourmet taste", which implies their strong demands for fresh foods and other produce. According to statistics in the Hong Kong Yearbook, the seafood consumption of Hong Kong in 1996 amounted to 300 000 tonnes, and local fish production, either captured or cultured, amounted to190 000 tonnes, or more than 50% of the total consumption. Moreover, recent inflation figures have indicated that the supply of primary food produce has a direct bearing on the Consumer Price Index A. So, should we continue to regard the farming and fisheries industries as "sunset industries" and leave them entirely on their own? 　

The shortage of deckhands is a factor which has been thwarting the development of the fishing industry. In the past, the fishing industry was very much a domestic industry, with family members constituting the sole source of labour. However, with increasing educational and job opportunities, most young people of the newer generations are unwilling to join this trade, thus leading to huge losses of manpower and forcing many fishermen to leave this industry. We, therefore, have sufficient reasons to believe that the decline of the fishing industry of Hong Kong has been caused actually by a lack of new blood rather than by a reduced market. 　

Over the years, fisheries organizations have been fighting for permission to recruit Mainland deckhands to work in Hong Kong waters. However, the number of Mainland deckhands approved by the Government has fallen far short of demand. What is more, the Government will allow the employment of Mainland deckhands only for fishing vessels with a length of 20 metres or more. Undoubtedly, this is very unfair to small- and medium-sized vessels. The DAB is of the opinion that the SAR should review its policy on deckhands. Moreover, to tie in with the future development of the deep-sea fishing industry, the Government should actively assist fishermen in upgrading their ocean fishing techniques and equipment, so as to give more room for the continued development of this industry. 　

In recent years, large-scale dredging and reclamation works along the coast have seriously damaged the seabed, dealing a blow to inshore fishing, and polluting our maricultural grounds. The Sap Long mariculture farm incident has revealed that fishermen and the Government have different standards on marine pollution and they also have different views regarding ex gratia compensations. The SAR Government should therefore review its standards on gauging water pollution and the method for calculating ex gratia compensations. It should also provide suitable maricultural grounds for mariculturists. In order to solve the pollution problem faced by fishing rafts and to make it possible for mariculturists to continue their operations, the Government should also provide technical support to help mariculturists deal with the deoxygenated layers under their fishing rafts on a regular basis. 　

Madam President, the Hong Kong fishing industry is not too weak to be revived, nor is it past redemption. The crucial point is whether or not the SAR Government is determined enough come to its assistance. It is unfair to say that the Agriculture and Fisheries Department has done nothing to promote the fishing industry, but it must be pointed out that it has just not done enough. The SAR Government should allocate more funds to conduct research on how to improve the equipment of fishing vessels and fishing rafts. For fishermen who lack the resources to improve their fishing gears, the SAR Government should offer financial assistance. It should also strengthen its communication with the Central Government and the coastal authorities so that fishermen engaged in deep-sea fishing can be allowed to operate in the waters of China and obtain the necessary logistics support. Only these measures will enable the Hong Kong fishing industry to perpetuate, develop and expand. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion proposed by the Honourable LO Suk-ching. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG. 　

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I support the motion today because I hope that the Hong Kong SAR Government will make a fresh assessment on its resources and revenue. I hope that the SAR Government will refrain from its passive approach when dealing with the various trades and enterprises in Hong Kong, in particular the agricultural and fishery industries which we discuss today. We do have the human resources and determination to maintain these industries. Today, many colleagues have also expressed opposition to the view that these industries are sunset industries. Having listerned to our opinions about these industries, the Government should really adopt a positive attitude towards them. 　

What is most important, I think, is that we should stop treating these industries as a source pollution. Actually, the technology today is very advanced. With this advanced level of technology, environment-friendly farming methods which use very limited resources can be introduced into Hong Kong very easily. We should no longer need to use chemical fertilizers, and we should be able to make good use of livestock wastes instead. In fact, with respect to this, some parts of the world have already acquired the know-hows. Why do we still have to wait? What do we not introduce these methods into Hong Kong for the assistance of these industries? 　

With these remarks, I support the motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services. 　

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have listened very carefully to Members' remarks. I am very grateful to them for their opinions, and we will consider them very carefully. First of all, I wish to tell everyone that the Government is supportive of the motion, for the reason that the Government has in fact been pursuing a policy of assisting the development of the agricultural and fisheries industries. I am therefore very glad that the Honourable LO Suk-ching has given us a chance to brief Members on the Government's policy on agriculture and fisheries, and to introduce to them the measures taken by the Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) now and in the past to facilitate the development of these two industries. We are also very glad that we have this chance to explain our long-term plan in this respect. 　

The Government has always recognized the great contributions which the agricultural and fisheries industries have made in respect of rural community construction, meeting the people's demand for fresh non-staple foodstuff, and relieving fluctuations in good supply and prices. Although the Government has not subsidized these industries directly, nor has it intervened in the free market mechanism, it has always worked hard to implement policies aiming at assisting these industries to raise their productivity and production efficiency. We have provided assistance to these industries in respect of their operation, wholesale marketing, financial aid and also conservation of resources. 　

In respect of assisting the operation of the agricultural industry, for years, the AFD has encouraged farmers to use modernized, efficient, safe and environment-friendly farming and livestock raising methods. The AFD had also provided them with various infrastructural and technical support services. The AFD, too, helps to raise farmers' productivity and returns by identifying and introducing into the territory quality livestock and premium vegetable species. In conjunction with the Vegetable Marketing Organization, the AFD has implemented an Accredited Farm Scheme to promote good farming methods. Regarding agricultural technology and techniques, such as farm management, disease, control pest prevention, safe use of agricultural chemicals, treatment of livestock wastes as well as prevention and treatment of livestock diseases, the AFD also gives advice to farmers directly or seeks to do so through farming co-operatives. In particular, on matter regarding the compliance of environmental protection legislation, the Government even gives direct financial aid to livestock farmers for the purpose of installing livestock waste treatment facilities. 　

To resolve the problem of labour shortage, the AFD has helped farmers apply for importation of labour. So far, the AFD had helped over 100 farms to secure quotas for about 350 imported workers under the Supplementary Labour Scheme. 　

Some Members have commented that with respect to the promotion of the agricultural and fisheries industries and environmental protection, government departments lack co-ordination with respect to their strategies. We cannot agree with them. The AFD and the Environmental Protection Department frequently exchange ideas for the purpose of enhancing the productivity of the agricultural and fisheries industries and protecting the environment. For instance, the Government has succeeded in helping to revive the pig rearing industry by developing the pig-on-litter method of pig rearing and providing subsidies for the construction of other environmental protection facilities. The achievements are obvious. The local production of pigs has risen from the original 8% of the territory's total consumption to 11% now. 　

In respect of wholesale marketing, through its own wholesale markets and those run by the financially autonomous Vegetable Marketing Organization, the AFD helps livestock and crop farmers to sell their produce effectively. For those farmers who grow quality agricultural produce under the Accredited Farm Scheme, the AFD also helps them to sell their produce at higher prices. Recently, the Scheme has been successfully extended to big farms in Guangdong, where vegetables are grown for the sole purpose of exporting to Hong Kong. 　

With respect to financial support, the AFD administers three loan funds providing credit service to farmers who want to enhance their productivity by increasing their investments. In 1996, the AFD approved a total of 440 loans applications, amounting to $28 million. 　

On the conservation of resources, we have adopted a strategy on agricultural land use, under which high quality farmlands are conserved through statutory land planning. The AFD also assumes the responsibility of maintaining, repairing and improving the drainage and irrigation systems. It, too, implements an agricultural land rehabilitation scheme to help farmers to use fallow high-quality farmlands for cultivation again. Since the scheme was launched in 1988, about 90 hectares of farmlands have been rehabilitated. 　

All these measures have, to a certain extent, contributed to the development of the local agricultural and fisheries industries. In 1996, the total value of local agricultural produce stood at about $1.3 billion representing 15% of the fresh vegetables, 26% of the chicken, and 11% of the pigs consumed by the local people. However, we, like Members of this Council, do believe that there are potentials for the agricultural and fisheries industries to further develop and that can contribute even more to the whole economy. Hence, we will shortly commission a consultant to conduct studies on the how best to assist the future development of the agricultural industry in terms of resource development and system operations. 　

In addition, we have also drawn up plans to negotiate with the relevant mainland authorities on the possibility of allowing more Hong Kong farmers to set up food production bases in the mainland, similar to those big vegetable farms in Guangdong. The AFD, local academic institutions and mainland agricultural technical personnel are working together to solve the agricultural problems which are of mutual concern and the scope of their technical co-operation continues to expand. Such contacts will further enhance and promote the agricultural development in the Pearl River Delta area. 　

I will now turn to the fisheries industry. This industry has made important contributions in the supply of fresh non-staple foodstuffs to Hong Kong. In recent years, the catches brought back by fishing vessels, together with the fish cultured in local waters, account for some 70% of the total consumption of marine fish in Hong Kong every year. The Government's policy on fisheries is to promote the development of the fishing industry and to sustain fishery resources, so as to ensure a steady supply of fresh fish for local consumption. 　

Over the years, the AFD has provided many different kinds of services to improve the competitiveness and productivity of the fisheries industry. To facilitate the operation of the industry, the AFD advises fishermen on the technology of the construction of fishing vessels and equipment. To enable fishermen to fish in the deep seas in distant areas, the AFD has been promoting the use of steel fishing vessels. The AFD has also provided a highly efficient wholesale marketing network through the wholesale fish markets run by the financially autonomous Fish Marketing Organization. The AFD administers several funds which provide credit services to fishermen who want to re-invest in their fishing vessels and equipment. The profits earned by wholesale fish markets are ploughed back into the industry in the form of low-interest loans to fishermen, improvements to market services and scholarships for fishermen's children. 　

Many Members have talked about difficulties experienced by the industry in recruiting sufficient local workers. We understand the difficulties faced by fishermen and have therefore implemented a Mainland Fishermen Deckhands Scheme, under which not more than 3 500 workers of Chinese nationality employed as dechhands on ocean-faring fishing vessels to enter Hong Kong to unload catches in specific wholesale fish markets. The nature of this scheme is different from that of the Supplementary Labour Scheme because in the case of the former, employment contracts must be drawn up outside Hong Kong and most of the work under such contracts must be carried out outside Hong Kong. The scheme has made a definite contribution to the fisheries industry. We understand that about 3 000 workers have been employed under this scheme, and we will also review whether there is any need for improvement as we gain more experience in the course of implementation. 　

Nevertheless, we are aware that fishery resources in local and neighbouring waters are continuously diminishing. The AFD has thus focused on identifying ways to conserve and sustain the fishery resources in local waters and also to protect the ocean environment. In this connection, we are carrying out three new schemes: 　

First, the AFD has launched a plan which worths about $100 million, and aims to install about 150 artificial reefs in various coasted parks and other suitable spots in the neighbouring waters of Hong Kong by 2001. The first one is expected to be installed by the end of this year. Artificial reefs will create an environmental favourable to the massive growth and development of marine life, and they will enrich its varieties, and also provide food and shelter for young fish so that they will have a better chance to grow and mature. This will also help to sustain our fishery resources and promote the long-term development of inshore fishing. 　

Second, the AFD will soon receive the last report of a 15-month study conducted by consultants on the resources of inshore fishing and fishing operation. The study will provide useful information on the existing condition, usage as well as potentials of the inshore marine resources of Hong Kong, and will enable the Government to formulate fishery resource management strategies suitable for the long-term sustainability of inshore fisheries. 　

Third, we have started to amend the relevant laws to increase substantially the maximum fines for using destructive fishing methods, such as the use of explosives and poison, and also prohibit or restrict the use of fishing tools harmful to the fisheries industry and marine life. 　

Since other places in the region are also troubled by the problem of fishermen using destructive fishing methods, we are bringing up this issue in a forum of the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC). In December this year, the AFD will work together with the State Oceanic Administration of China and the Environmental Protection Administration of Chinese Taipei to discuss the impact of destructive fishing methods on the marine environment, in the hope of arousing APEC Members' concern over this problem. The AFD is also actively working hand in hand with other APEC economic entities to promote marine conservation and sustain fishery resources. 　

As for future development, taking into account the increasing demand for marine fish, we think that there is a need for further expanding the scope of the fisheries industry. However, promoting and developing distant water fishing is no easy task. We have to study carefully a host of complicated matters, including the design of suitable fishing boats, enhancement of the skills of local fishermen, the study on the availability of supportive ports and market facilities, negotiation for fishing rights and also subsidies to capital investments. The AFD will soon conduct some in-depth studies. 　

On mariculture, we have again spared no efforts in helping to enhance the operation, productivity and returns of this industry. The AFD provides advisory services to mariculturists to help them improve their fish culture techniques. Besides carrying out regular inspection of fish culture zones, AFD officers also fish give seminars and demonstration to mariculturists, and introduce to them new culture fish species, new feed, as well as the prevention and treatment of fish diseases. After receiving any reports on the death of fish, the AFD will carry out investigation to trace the cause and look for suitable remedies. The AFD has also prepared leaflets and guidelines on the management of mariculture zones and environmental hygiene. These are distributed to mariculturists. 　

In view of the sledge accumulated under fish rafts, some Members have suggested the use of fish rafts on rotation. Since this will require the designation of more fish culture zones, it will be rather difficult to implement. But the AFD will continue to support mariculturists by helping them to adopt environment-friendly mariculture techniques. In recent years, the AFD have successfully introduced to mariculturists fish species that are suitable for local culture and have good commercial potentials. One of the popular species is the sea bass while the red drum is also under study. Moreover, the AFD has also made good progress in promoting new feed formulas which will not pollute the water but at the same time will encourage fish growth. 　

Owing to the limited supply of suitable mariculture grounds in Hong Kong, and since about 90% of our catches are obtained in seas outside our waters, we have been actively seeking the co-operation of mainland fisheries authorities to help Hong Kong fishermen establish fish culture grounds in the mainland and to protect them during their operation in the Chinese waters. 　

Lastly, I wish to reassure Members that the Government's policy is supportive of the development of the local agricultural and fisheries industries. From what I have said earlier, Members should be able see that the AFD has taken various measures to assist the farming and fisheries industries all along and it is also implementing many important new schemes favouring the long-term development of the industries. 　

Thank you, Madam President.

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching, you have already used up the 15 minutes which you originally have. Therefore, I cannot allow you to make a reply now. However, you may not have such a need as all Members who have spoken and also the Secretary for Economic Services are supportive of you motion. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LO Suk-ching be approved. 　

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please says "no".

(No Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it. 　

RESOLVING THE FLOODING PROBLEM IN THE NORTHWEST NEW TERRITORIES 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second motion. Dr TANG Siu-tong. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed and set out under my name on the Agenda. 　

I believe no one would dispute it if I say that Hong Kong is a modernized city. For Hong Kong, the recent years are marked with an endless stream of large-scale infrastructural projects such as the new airport at Chak Lap Kok and the Tsing Ma Bridge, which has caught the world's attention, which all add to the pride of the Hong Kong people. Surprisingly, however, we have failed to do well in regard to our drainage infrastructure. Consequently, during the rainy season every year, floodings occur all over Hong Kong, particularly in the northwest New Territories, where the residents are worst-hit. 　

Undeniably, the northwest New Territories is more prone to flooding because of the relief of its land. However, human factors have also contributed to the aggravation of this problem. 　

1. Flood prevention works at slow pace 　

According to the information available to us, many years ago the Administration has already drawn up nearly 20 project plans on river training works in the northwest New Territories, with implementation dates spanning from 1993 to 2000. However, Madam President, what has actually happened is that many of these projects have experienced delayed implementation and their completion dates have had to be postponed accordingly. 　

2. Blockage of river courses 　

I have observed that the outlets of many drains are silted up, thus slowing down the speed of water drainage. The construction sites near river drains are often scattered with piles of construction wastes. When it rains, sand, wood and rubbish will be washed down by the rainwater into river drains, silting them up. The recent flooding in Tai Po is a good example. Besides, household refuse such as plastic bags, bottles and old pieces of furniture dumped here and there will also be washed down by heavy rains into the rivers, causing the rivers to be blocked up. 　

3. Erroneous town planning 　

In the mid-1980s, the Government vigorously developed many new towns. Tin Shui Wai, for example, is built on an artificially elevated site over 10 feet higher than the original ground level. The adjacent areas are thus turned into man-made lowlands, where floodings inevitably occur in times of heavy rain. 　

Madam President, in view of this, the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance (HKPA) urges that the Government should take the following short-term and long-term measures so as to solve the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories as soon as possible:

1. Short-term measures ─ increasing the resources and manpower for the maintenance and clearance of watercourses in flooding blackspots and other drainage channels

We are aware that those settlements lying along the Shenzhen River in the Northern District, including Sheung Shui, Ta Kwu Ling, Lo Wu, Kam Tin in Yuen Long, Sha Po, Tai Kong Po, Wang Chau, Lau Fau Shan and Hung Shui Kiu, are all blackspots for flooding over the years. Big floods in times of heavy downpour and small floods in times of light rains are just all too common. At present, there are only 130 staff members in the Mainland North Division of the Drainage Services Department, but these people are required to attend to all drainage matters in the districts of Yuen Long, Tuen Mun, Northern District and also Tai Po. With this level of manpower and staffing, can all drainage channels be maintained and cleared effectively? The Government claims that it will spend about $95 million this year on inspecting, clearing, dredging and repairing all watercourses over the territory. Will the existing level of available resources be sufficient? I believe that we can get some idea from the real situation. 　

Recently, we conducted a site visit to Tan Kwai Tsuen and Tai Kong Po Tsuen in Yuen Long during a downpour. There, we saw big heaps of silt and mud next to the river, and there were all kinds of debris such as plastic bags, styrofoam and vehicle parts in the river; there were even thick growths of wild grass in the smaller streams. There was just no outlet for rainwater to escape, and the road was flooded as a result. With our naked eyes, we could already see that surface drains were stuffed with rubbish, so the conditions of underground drains could then be easily imagined. From this, it is obvious that the resources that the Government has put in are still far from sufficient. 　

Hence, we have two suggestions: 　

1. The Government must deploy more manpower to inspect rivers and clean up rubbish, especially before the rainy season. Our site visit revealed that the inspections carried out by the Drainage Services Department in the past were obviously inadequate, as refuse was not effectively cleaned. Moreover, we also urge the Government to set up more rubbish collection centres and employ more workers to collect the rubbish. That way, when villagers are able to dispose of their rubbish in proper places, the possibility for littering will be diminshed.



2. The Government can make use of posters and activities such as seminars to remind villagers that they should not dump refuse around, and that if they do, they themselves will be the ultimate victims.

2. Long-term measures ─ speeding up drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories

We are of the opinion that in the long run, the only solution to the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories is to speed up the drainage works there. As I mentioned earlier, the Government has already drawn up some plans on river training works in the northwest New Territories several years ago. The works are to be implemented in flooding black spots such as Kam Tin, Sheung Shui, Fan Ling and San Tin. 　

According to the 1996 statistics, the implementation of many flood prevention works have been put off. For example, the first part of the third phase of the primary drainage works in San Tin of the northwest New Territories was originally expected to begin in August 1999. However, the latest information shows that the commencement date will have to be delayed until October 2000, and the completion will thus have to be accordingly postponed for one year. 　

Likewise, if we look at the 1996 statistics, we will notice that the first phase of the village flood protection scheme in Yuen Long, Kam Tim and Ngau Tam Mei Tsuen was once expected to start in October 1998. However, the latest position is that it will not start until March 1999, and its completion will also be delayed for a year. How many more similar cases of delay are there? Works commencement dates can be delayed again and again. No wonder the northwest New Territories has been battered by floods for so many years. 　

In view of this, the HKPA recommends that the Government should put in place an effective monitory mechanism. 　

The floodings over the recent years should have made the Government realize the urgency of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories. But, the cases of delay mentioned just can hardly give confidence to the colleagues of this Council and the public, convincing them that the Government does have the determination to resolve the flooding problem in that area. We earnestly hope that the Government will establish an effective mechanism to supervise and monitor the progress of all drainage works.

3. Communicating closely with the Shenzhen authorities, in the hope that the time for flood discharge will be brought to our notice without delay

Madam President, I can still remember the "September 26 incident" of 1993, in which the flood discharge from the Shenzhen Reservoir caused serious flooding in the Northern District of Hong Kong. When typhoon Victor hit Hong Kong this year, although the flood discharge by Shenzhen fortunately did not cause any casualties in the Northern District, vegetable farmers still suffered losses in the value of several million dollars, and vegetable prices have thus been pushed up by 30%. 　

The losses sustained by the residents there could have been reduced. Had Shenzhen informed Hong Kong through the Border Liaison Group earlier instead of just 45 minutes prior to the flood discharge, the farmers could have more time to salvage their crops and move their farming machine to higher places, and their losses could then have been minimized. Moreover, within such a short span of 45 minutes, the government departments concerned were unable to take any contingency measures to cope with the situation. Although policemen and firemen were deployed to help evacuate the residents, the effect was not satisfactory. The New Territories Vegetable Farmer Concern Group has told me that in some remote villages, police officers were not to be found at that time. These villagers just happened to know that Shenzhen was about to discharge floodwater when they watched television. From all this, we can see that the notice given by the Shenzhen authorities to the territory was too hasty, with the result that the relevant government departments and farmers of Hong Kong could not respond by taking any corresponding preventive measures. 　

In the light of this, I have three suggestions to make:

(1) An audio pre-warning system 　

We know that Tai O once implemented a similar system, under which a representative of the residents responsible for liaison would notify the residents by phone. But, we think that given the technological level of today, such a method may well be clumsy and time-consuming. Hence, we suggest that an audio pre-warning be implemented in all villages in the Northern District, so that once the Border Liaison Group is notified by the Shenzhen authorities, they can immediately activate this system, informing the villagers of the time, duration and scale of the discharge. That way, they will have more time to make preparations. Such a system not only saves manpower but also ensures that the message can be spread to all remote areas. 　

(2) Enhance communication with the Shenzhen authorities 　

I think that Shenzhen should step up its communication with us so that the Hong Kong Government can be notified, as early as possible, of the time, rate per second and duration of a flood discharge. The Vegetable Farmer Concern Group considers that a discharge notification should be given at least three to four hours or even more in advance. Of course, it would be most ideal if a notification can be given half a day or even one day in advance. I hope that the Hong Kong Government can maintain closer contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, and convey to them the wish of local farmers that they could be notified without delay. 　

Two days ago, several of our colleagues in this Council, including me, paid a visit to the Shenzhen River Regulation Office. The staff members of the Office told us that the study on the third phase of the regulation of the Shenzhen River, that is the work on the drainage basin of Ng Tung River, had been completed and they were now waiting for a commencement date for the works. We hope that the Government will contact the Shenzhen authorities as soon as possible so as to secure an early start of the works, because this will greatly help to ease the flooding problem in Ng Tung River basin, which has also cast a serious impact on the Northern District. 　

(3) More police officers and firemen to help the residents

During flood discharges, they can help rescue the residents from the scenes and help farmers to move their farming machines to safe places, thereby minimizing losses caused to lives and properties. 　

Madam President, the reason for my putting forward the motion debate on "Resolving the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories" is that the residents there have been bothered by this problem perennially and that the Government cannot simply put the blame on Heaven. 　

My three suggestions are: (1) short-term measures ─ increasing the resources and manpower for the maintenance and clearance of watercourses in flooding blackspots and other drainage channels; (2) long-term measure ─ speeding up drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories; and (3) communicating closely with the Shenzhen authorities, in the hope that the time for flood discharge will be brought to our notice without delay so that losses caused by flood discharge to lives and properties will be minimized. I am of full conviction that "the will of man will triumph over nature". 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I move the motion. 　

　

Dr TANG Siu-tong moved the following motion: 　

"That, as the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories has remained very serious in recent years, this Council urges the Government to: 　

1. speed up the progress of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories;
　
2. provide adequate resources for the stepping up of maintenance and clearance works of watercourses and other drainage systems at flooding blackspots before the rainy season; and
　
3. communicate closely with the Shenzhen authorities on the early notification to the territory of the time of flood discharges, so that residents can make adequate preparation, thereby reducing loss in lives and property."

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That, as the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories has remained very serious in recent years, this Council urges the Government to: 　

1. speed up the progress of drainage improvement works in the northwest New Territories;

　

2. provide adequate resources for the stepping up of maintenance and clearance works of watercourses and other drainage systems at flooding blackspots before the rainy season; and

　

3. communicate closely with the Shenzhen authorities on the early notification to the territory of the time of flood-discharges, so that residents can make adequate preparation, thereby reducing loss in lives and property.

　

Does any Member wish to speak? 　

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

　

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, during the rainy season every year, the lowlands of Hong Kong are invariably battered by flooding, and this is especially the case for northwest New Territories. After each downpour, villages are all turned into swamps and villagers suffer heavy losses in property, crops and livestock. Sometimes, there may even be threat to lives. Natural disasters are of course hard to avoid, but, if the Government has taken adequate measures to prevent and combat these natural disasters, and if the Government has put in place adequate disaster relief measures, the losses substained by the people as result of flooding can in fact be minimized. 　

In regard to the prevention and combating of flooding, the Drainage Services Department has already formulated a set of long-term and short-term flood relief measures. But, the question is that the Government has not been determined enough to relieve the flooding problem and the drainage improvement works were often subject to frequent delays. According to the plans laid down by the Government and the Shenzhen River Regulation Office, a long-term measure is to carry out the Shenzhen River regulation project in three phases: to straighten the course and widen the mouth of the river; to eliminate the threat of flooding by reducing the bends of the river; and to increase the drainage capacity at its mouth. The first phase of the works which involves cutting the bends of the river has already been completed, and has achieved a certain effect on flood prevention. The extent of flooding in the northwest New Territories has thus been reduced. The second phase of the works is already underway. After the completion of the third phase, the flooding problem in Shenzhen and the northern New Territories will be much mitigated. However, because of the mammoth scale of the works, it will take time to have them all completed, and in the meantime, residents can only look forward to a gradual improvement to the situation. In regard to the Government's improvement works for river systems in the New Territories, it has been found in a recent progress review that many of the works have been delayed for one or two years or even longer. I hope that the Government will really make determined efforts to step up its co-operation with the Shenzhen River Regulation Office and to allocate sufficient resources to secure the early completion of the river regulation works. Furthermore, in an attempt to relieve low lying areas from the threat of floods as soon as possible, it should also establish a monitory mechanism and publish the schedule for the river regulation works, so that the public can also take part in monitoring the progress of the works. 　

As regards short-term measures, the Government has indeed carried out river maintenance, minor drainage remedial works, flood plains management and flood warning in a systematic manner. However, because of the rapid development in the New Territories over the last 10 odd years, the relevant drainage and river improvement works have in fact failed to catch up. So, even there are plans, the works required have still been held up owing to environmental protection and other factors. I think that while it is important to protect the environment, the people's lives and properties should be considered even more important. Therefore, I hope that environmental protection groups and all other parties involved will co-operate with the Government, giving top priority to the prevention of disasters, so that the plans can be implemented as soon as possible. Another point I want to raise is the land abuses in the New Territories. In recent years, lands have been filled up highly for housing construction or conversion into open container depots or vehicle maintenance grounds. This has turned adjacent villages into lowlands. To tackle this situation, the Planning Department should deploy more manpower to prosecute those who have altered the use of lands illegally without submitting any applications. At the same time, members of the public should, for their own sake and that of others, keep the environment tidy and clean. They should not alter the use of lands at will, or dump rubbish, big pieces of furniture and so on wherever they like because if they do so, rainwater will wash them down into the river, thus blocking its course and aggravating the flooding problem. The Government should also step up its publicity efforts, advising the public not to dump garbage anywhere they like; it should also set up more rubbish collection centres in the rural areas so that the people will have proper places to dispose of their refuse. Through such dual efforts, it would be possible to keep the river courses unimpeded. 　

Madam President, disaster prevention is of course very important, but contingency measures for disaster relief are also indispensable. When a typhoon hit Hong Kong earlier this month, the Shenzhen authorities discharged floodwater at nine o'clock that night. However, they did not inform Hong Kong until 8:15 pm. In such a great hurry, it had been impossible for the Hong Kong authorities to notify all residents who would be affected. Consequently, the residents had no time to remove their furniture and electrical appliances to higher places or harvest their crops. As a result, they suffered heavy financial losses. I hope that the Government will step up its communication with the relevant departments in Shenzhen so that in future they would notify Hong Kong at least several hours in advance. The Government should also draw up a more effective system of warning measures and procedures, so that the residents of the affected areas can be given prior warmings. That way, they will have more time to prepare for the floods, thus reducing their losses. 　

Madam President, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG, took the Chair. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, this year, because of the El Nino Effect which has cast an impact on the weather conditions in South Asia, Hong Kong once recorded over 300 mm of rainfall in one single day. Actually, every year as the rainy season begins, the residents of many parts in the New Territories will start to be bothered by flooding. Whenever there is a rainstorm, agricultural lands, fishponds and even the houses of residents will all turn into swamps. It is not hard to imagine the extent of their losses. 　

In order to deal with the problem of flooding, the Government has been working very hard on the Northwest New Territories Drainage Work Programme in recent years, but, it has failed to completely resolve this problem. When a typhoon hit Hong Kong earlier this month, the flooding of some agricultural lands in the New Territories was even worse than before, and it took a total of four days for all the flood water to completely subside. 　

Many parts of the northwest New Territories are basically low-lying areas, but, on the whole, the drainage system there is still not entirely satisfactory. As a government with a sense of responsibility, the Administration should take prompt actions to improve the existing drainage systems; expedite the progress of drainage improvement works; clear the silted outlets of drainage channels, and reinforce its inspections so as to minimize the blockage of drainage outlets caused by rubbish, construction wastes and debris. In this connection, the Government must step up its publicity efforts to educate villagers and construction workers working there that they should dispose of their rubbish properly, so that their rubbish and other debris will not be washed down into the drainage channels by heavy rains. 　

In the past, the northern New Territories would become flooded very easily because the Shenzhen authorities had to open their floodgates to discharge flood water during prolonged downpours. However, with the completion of Phase I of the Shenzhen River regulation works sometime ago, the work on flood prevention has achieved some noticeable results. Although the precipitation record of Hong Kong this year is one of the highest in this century, marked improvements have been observed in flood-prone areas in terms of the scope and degree of damage. To further reduce the losses sustained by the residents of Northwest New Territories as a result of flooding, the Government should maintain close contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, so as to obtain from them prior information about the time and other relevant particulars relating to their flood discharges. That way, the villagers likely to be affected can be notified to make preparations in good time. 　

Besides co-operating with the Shenzhen authorities to regulate the Shenzhen River as soon as possible, the Government should also seek to resolve the flooding problem in Hong Kong completely. The Drainage Services Department must make more efforts to conduct a comprehensive study on improving the drainage systems in Hong Kong. According to reports, drainage improvement works are often held up by difficulties in land resumption. Should this be the case, the Government must look squarely at this problem and look for a solution as soon as possible, so as to avoid any delay in the progress of the works. 　

Mr Deputy, on the basis of the aforesaid reasons and with these remarks, I support Dr the Honourable TANG Siu-tong's motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NGAN Kam-chuen. 　

MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong supports this motion. 　

Since the beginning of this year, Hong Kong has been struck by many rainstorms, causing serious flooding in many places in the New Territories. Busy urban areas such as Mong Kok and Prince Edward Road are heavily flooded during every downpour. All these indicate that the flooding problem in Hong Kong is still very serious. The Government has set a goal in the Policy Commitments on abating the danger of flooding. However, it looks unlikely that this goal will ever be achieved in the foreseeable future. The most pressing task for the Government now is to expedite the flood protection schemes in the New Territories, repair and improve the stormwater drainage in the urban areas, alleviate the plight of the residents, and reduce their economic losses caused by flooding. 　

To solve the flooding problem, stop-gap solutions as well as permanent cures have to be identified. Hence, the Government has to take a three-pronged approach to co-ordinate flood prevention works, policies for short-term improvement and management, as well as legislative measures in order that the problem could be thoroughly tackled. 　

(1) To speed up the progress of flood prevention and drainage works 　

In 1994, the Hong Kong Government promised that by the end of 1997, it would complete flood protection schemes for the villages which involved the construction of bunds and flood prevention pump stations in 12 villages lying in flood-prone lowlands. To everyone's disappointment, the schemes have been stalled repeatedly, and the Government also admits that the works will not be completed until the end of 1999. Actually, the flood protection schemes for the villages are only a very small part of flood prevention projects in the New Territories, most of the more important items such as the construction of drainage channels and river training have not even started. According to the documents provided by the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau, of a total of 17 major flood prevention projects in the New Territories already decided in 1995, as at today, only five of them are in progress and only one has been completed. It is small wonder that whenever there is a downpour, few places in the New Territories can be spared from floods and that the residents there can only succumb to fate. 　

Take Yuen Long as an example. The region around San Tin and Ngau Tam Mei are blackspots for flooding. Since the primary drainage works in San Tin will not be completed until 2002, areas such as Yan Sau Wai, On Loong Tsuen and Ching Loong Tsuen have been frequently battered by flooding over the last two years. In the area of Ngau Tam Mei, the construction of the primary drainage and river training works will have to wait till next year before they can start. Hence, the residents of Yau Mei San Tsuen, Ngau Tam Mei San Tsuen, Chuk Yuen Tsuen will still have to live in fear and pray earnestly to Heaven for good weather. 　

As for Kwan Tei Tsuen and Ho Ba Tsuen in Sheung Shui which were besieged by floods two weeks ago, since the Government will not start training the Ng Tung River until 1998, so when torrential rain comes, the villages there will be flooded and the residents will all be affected. All they can do is to look on with despair when their crops are engulfed by the flood water. 　

All these cases serve to illustrate that the Government must be urged to speed up the progress of river training and drainage works, and to carry out river dredging and drainage repairs as soon as possible, so that flooding or irregular drainage of watercourses can be prevented. 　

(2) To take short-term improvement and management measures 　

Recently, every time after a flood, government officials would explain that the flood had been caused by the blockage of drainage channels by leaves, rubbish, plaster bags and other debris. This simply shows that the Government has not done enough in terms of preventive repairs and of minimizing blockages. So, the Government must reinforce its plans for preventive repairs and maintenance. It must also conduct regular inspection of drainage channels during the rainy season, so that leaves, rubbish and plastic bags causing blockage can be removed and damaged drains repaired. 　

Mr Deputy, recently I have visited Ko Po San Tsuen in Yuen Long to investigate a complaint filed by the residents. Because the Au Tau approach road of Route 3 is to be constructed along a slope, Ko Po San Tsuen has been turned into a low-lying area. Although the constractor has dug a temporary drainage channel, it is often blocked by wastes produced in the course of the construction process. As a result, the village has been flooded many times and each time flood water reaches waist-deep level, seriously threatening the lives and properties of the residents there. In the past decades, flood water only came up to the ankle but now it is waist-deep. This shows that the Government must step up the monitoring of the various public and private projects to prevent the projects from creating blockages to drainage channels. It must also ensure that drainage systems will not be blocked up by construction wastes and that there are sufficient temporary drainage facilities. 　

(3) To enact co-ordinating legislation 　

Flood prevention projects frequently involve land resumption, reconstruction of existing roads and resettlement of residents. In some cases, the Government fails to deal promptly with the objection of residents, thus causing repeated project delays. The Government plans to amend the Town Planning Ordinance in this legislative year to change the statutory time limit for the processing of public objections. However, most of the time flood prevention projects will involve the Roads Ordinance, Foreshore and Sea-bed Ordinance and Crown Lands Resumption Ordinance. In this connection, the Government has not drawn up any plan in amending them. I hope that the Government will amend these ordinances as soon as possible so that they can be brought in line with the newly enacted Railways Ordinance, which allows a statutory time limit of nine months for the processing of objections. This will achieve uniformity for the legislation, in addition to promoting the smooth implementation of the flood prevention schemes. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Wong-fat. 　

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, as early as a decade ago, Members of the then Legislative Council have already urged the Government to mitigate the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories. And, in view of the deterioriating situation, a resolution of a similar nature was endorsed in 1993 again. But floods still occur year after year and the lives and properties of the residents continue to come under the ferocious threat of floods. The Government has repeatedly claimed that as soon as the extensive flood prevention projects are completed, the threat of flooding will be eliminated. It is obvious that only time can tell whether or not the Government's pledges will be fulfilled. But, in the meantime, the threat of flooding faced by the residents whenever there is any downpour remains a harsh reality. It is a big irony that flooding is still a common scene in such a modernised city like Hong Kong.

The need to develop the New Territories in support of the population growth in Hong Kong is not anything novel which have suddenly emerged today. Since the Government has to develop the New Territories, it should conduct comprehensive planning beforehand. The floodings in the New Territories which occur every year show that the Government's attempts to develop the area has not been accompanied by any detailed consideration in regard to the ancillary public facilities, and this accounts for the endless floodings. 　

Since 1987, I have repeatedly urged the Government to establish a flood prevention team and to incorporate an additional term in works contracts to require contractors not to commence works until they have constructed the drainage channels required and obtained approval from the flood prevention team. The flood prevention team can also co-ordinate the efforts of the various government departments as regards the management and maintenance of the drainage systems in the New Territories. Since the Government has now planned to develop the northwest New Territories in an extensive scale to cope with the housing demand in Hong Kong, I think that the establishment of a flood prevention team has become a proposal with an even more realistic significance. 　

Mr Deputy, the floodings in the northwest New Territories every year have posed a serious threat to the livelihood and safety of all the people living there. The most pressing task at present is for the Government to allocate more resources to expedite the progress of the flood prevention works, so as to relieve the residents there of the threat of flooding as soon as possible. The New Territories account for 88% of the total area of the whole territory. It is perfectly reasonable and necessary for the Government to allocate more resources to construct more facilities for draining stormwater. 　

In the past, the rivers in the New Territories served naturally as a major drainage system. But now, because of the Government's development plans, many of the rivers have lost most of their drainage function. Some of the rivers are also blocked by refuse, sand and stones dumped by inconsiderate people. The Administration should step up its inspection and prosecute the people who dump wastes and debris in the rivers. Furthermore, river beds should also be dredged and the embankments repaired in order to restore the natural drainage function of the rivers. 　

Moreover, Phase I of the Shenzhen River regulation carried out jointly by the Hong Kong Government and the Shenzhen authorities was completed early this year. Its initial effect on mitigating the flooding on both sides of the border has been noticed. The Hong Kong Government should take all necessary measures to work closely with the Shenzhen authorities to secure an early commencement and completion of the regulation works of the Shenzhen River that remained. 　

Mr Deputy, in the past, only the New Territories area was affected by flooding. But, in recent years, flooding has also become a common scene in the urban areas. With people all over the territory being affected by floods, it is obvious that the development of our drainage facilities are lagging seriously behind that of the community. The Government should conduct a thorough review of the drainage systems all over the territory as soon as possible, and devote as much resources as possible to bring about an early solution to the problem of flooding. 　

Mr Deputy, with these remarks, I support the motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin. 　

MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, whenever there is torrential rain, the Northwest New Territories (NWNT) will invariably become a blackspot for flooding. In recent years, public clamour for a solution to this problem has never ceased, and the various sectors of the community have been pressing the Administration to implement flood prevention measures in this area. But, why has NWNT been unable invariably to escape the poor fate of being turned into a world of water every time after continuous downpours? Why must the residents of NWNT continue to be battered by flooding? Should they just blame Heaven, instead of also laying the blame on possible human errors? 　

The reasons for the flooding problem in NWNT can be categorized into the following. Firstly, the flood relieving function of fish ponds have been greatly reduced because a large number of them have been reclaimed as a result of the Government's strenuous efforts to build new towns in this area. What is more, massive construction projects undertaken by private developers in this district have continued to raise the former low-lying areas, preventing rain water from escaping, thereby causing flooding. One of the most important reasons is that the Government's development of NWNT has been characterized by a lack of long-term environmental impact assessment. Besides, it was observed during the last rainstorm that drains were blocked by construction waste, domestic refuse and abandoned furniture pieces. This shows that, besides the objective factor of geographical changes, the people themselves are one of the causes attributing to the flooding problem. 　

With regard to how this problem can be resolved, Mr TANG Siu-tong has put forward a lot of suggestions and other Members have also expressed some other opinions. Since I support most of their opinions, I am not going to repeat them here. I just want to add one point. From the point of view of environment protection, I must say that while the Government attempts to speed up the work on improving the drainage systems of NWNT, it should learn from past experience. This means that adequate environmental impact assessment must be carried out before the Government makes any land grants or formulate any plans on land uses. Having conducted environmental impact assessment, drainage systems with proven effects should be installed in flood-prone areas to prevent flooding. I also agree to what a Member has said just now. The Government should deploy more manpower and take stern actions against those people who have altered designated land uses illegally, by, for example, converting farmlands into grounds for abandoned cars and construction waste materials. Of course, it is also very important to increase the environmental awareness of the public. In this connection, the Government should step up its publicity efforts, advising the people to keep the environment clean by not littering around. This is for their own good as well as for the benefit of others. 　

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion. 　

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung. 　

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, for years the northwest New Territories has remained a blackspot for floodings. Every time after a heavy downpour, that part of the territory will experience serious floods; traffic is disrupted and even paralyzed, trapping and stranding the residents. Sometimes, even firemen have to be sent for to rescue besieged residents by lifeboats. 　

Regrettably, while the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories is yet to be solved, western Kowloon has become another flood-stricken area. In the torrential rain last Friday, many streets in Mong Kok experienced floods up to waist-deep, and Nathan Road was practically turned into a river. Many cars broke down and the traffic came to a complete standstill. Shops could not do business because of the flood. Pedestrians were stranded and silence befell this busy city. It was only fortunate that there were no casualties. 　

Obviously, the plight brought about by flooding is becoming increasingly severe. Its extent and the seriousness of the damage have reached a point where we can no longer defer determined efforts to bring an end to the problem. 　

Floods occur whenever it rains. The Pearl of the Orient has become another Venice. It is indeed a great irony to such a modernized international metropolis like Hong Kong. 　

Hong Kong is a world-famous international financial centre, possessing fiscal reserves of over $360 billion. That such an advanced and well-off city has failed nonetheless to solve the flooding problem is indeed a shame to its status as an international financial centre, and is also detrimental to its image as a modernized metropolis. 　

The people's livelihood consists of nothing more than four elements, namely, clothing, food, accommodation and transportation. The people of Hong Kong do not need to worry about their clothing and food any more. While accommodation has always posed great difficulties, the issue of transportation has become yet another headache. Whenever there is heavy rain, there are serious floods; traffic is paralyzed, and the people are stranded. These all cause great inconvenience to the people with respect to their safety, work, schooling and daily life. The elimination of the flooding problem, and thus of the "transportation" headache, is a fundamental protection to which our people are entitled. There is simply no excuse on the part of the authorities for failing to do so.

It rains every year and the territory floods every year. Every department of the former Government gave its own reasons for shirking its responsibilities. So, there has been no obvious sign that the flooding problem is in any way really mitigated. 　

Flooding brings disasters and plagues the people. How much longer will it have to bother our people? 　

Is it really true that there is not any complete cure for this big old problem named "flooding"? 　

We have neither any reason nor any excuse for shirking this responsibility. We do have sufficient manpower, as well as financial and other resources to build advanced drainage systems and substantially raise the capacity of our drainage channels. We can clear drainage channels of silt and debris regularly and enhance their repairs and maintenance. We can step up inspections during the rainy season and take all precautionary measures before the rain comes, and we can also open the floodgates to discharge the stormwater in time. We can also educate the people not to litter or dump refuse anywhere they like to prevent blockage of drainage channels ...... All in all, it depends entirely on whether or not the Government wants to attach enough importance to this situation. 　

Typhoons and torrential rains are nothing new to Hong Kong. As a matter of fact, it can be said that they are almost a part of our everyday life. Therefore, our drainage systems must have sufficient capacity to combat these natural disasters. Their design must have be of a high standard and their drainage capacity must be big enough to prevent flooding. A modernized city must have modernized drainage systems. 　

The capacity of the existing drainage systems in Yau Ma Tei, Tsim Sha Tsui and Mong Kok is just too small to be able to handle unusually heavy rainfalls. According to the Rainwater Mitigation Project, this district will have to wait till the year 2006 before its primary drainage can be sufficiently upgraded to handle exceptionally heavy rainfalls occurring only once in two centuries. In other words, the residents will have to wait nine more years before their district can be safe from flooding. 　

Such a slow progress cannot be justified. The eradication of the problem can wait no longer. I hope that the Hong Kong SAR Government will get rid of the red-tapes of the former Government and adopt a new vision. It must put in sufficient resources to enhance the construction of our drainage systems, to perfect their management, and make determined efforts to speedily cure this problem, not only in the northwest New Territories but also in western Kowloon and even throughout the whole territory. 　

With these remarks, I support the Honourable TANG Siu-tong's motion on behalf of the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does other Member wish to speak? 　

(No Member responded)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands. 　

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, from the motion moved by Dr TANG Siu-tong and speeches by Members of the Council, we can see that the Government and the Council do share the common goal of mitigating the flooding problem in the Northwest New Territories (NWNT), and that our views are converging. The scenes of devastated crops and frustrated people keeping water out of their homes that we saw on television, however, showed only part of the picture. I would like to take this opportunity to complete the other part of the picture. 　

First, I would like to talk about the causes of flooding. The NWNT has three main drainage basins, namely the Tin Shui Wai Drainage Basin, the Yuen Long and Kam Tin Drainage Basin as well as the Ngau Tam Mei and San Tin Drainage Basin. These basins are highly susceptible to flooding because they are low natural flood plains, and, as pointed out by Members, because they have been subject to intense development pressure, leading to building on agricultural land and blockage of rivers by refuse dumping and so on. The flooding situation in these basins will be further aggravated by a combination of intensive rainfall, that is, heavy rainfall in a short duration, and adverse tidal/surging effects in Deep Bay, where the flood eventually outfalls. 　

How do we deal with the flooding then? The Government has adopted a comprehensive three-tier approach to mitigate this problem. The three tiers relate to: first, ongoing improvement and maintenance measures; second, planning and legislative measures and third, long term structural measures. 　

As regards the ongoing improvement and maintenance measure, in order to ensure optimum hydraulic capacities in the primary drainage systems, the Government has an ongoing preventive maintenance programme. This included cleansing, desilting and repairing over 200 kilometres of stormwater drains and stream courses. Critical areas and flood blackspots are inspected regularly to remove any blockage. These actions are stepped up before and during the rainy season each year. Flooding blackspots are inspected once a month during the dry seasons and once every two weeks during the rainy seasons. Inspections are also carried out after each rain. The recurrent expenditure on these works in the NWNT alone is $15 million per year. Annually, 120 000 cubic metres of silt are removed from these drainage systems. 　

The implementation of the Government's drainage works have met with much difficulty in the past owing to the refusal of private land owners to allow the works to be carried out on their lands and the progress of the works has thus been held up. Hence, in response to Dr TSO WONG Man-yin's question whether we can only "blaming Heaven" but not "the people", I think that we have every good reason to "blame the people". It is not that we do not want to do it but that the works have often met with obstructions; and neither is it a matter of resources. Nevertheless, the Government has also made much effort in this regard. 　

Implementation of the works has been enhanced by the Land Drainage Ordinance enacted in March 1994, which allows the Government to enter or pass through private lands to carry out the necessary drainage works on major drainage basins which are covered by the Drainage Authority Area (DAA) Plans. They include the Tin Shui Wai Drainage Basin, the Indus Drainage Basin, the Ganges Drainage Basin and the Yuen Long, Kam Tin, Ngau Tam Mei Drainage Basin. The Plan for San Tin Drainage Basin is pending on an appeal from a private land owner, but enforcement action as per the Land Drainage Ordinance can still be taken by the Drainage Authority with the draft DAA Plan for the San Tin Drainage Basin. 　

Second, in respect to the planning and legislative measures, as pointed out by Members, we hope that land use management and development controls will minimize the adverse impact of developments on drainage in the adjacent areas. In the early 1990s the Government introduced a legislative framework to manage new development in the New Territories. The enactment of the Town Planning (Amendment) Ordinance 1991 provided a means to control development in the New Territories. These controls supplemented the statutory Outline Zoning Plans and controls which can be imposed through the lease conditions on land grants. 　

Drainage Impact Assessments have been imposed on public as well as private developments which are likely to have significant impact on the drainage of the area. In the past five years, 469 drainage impact assessments have been conducted for new developments in the NWNT. I believe that these assessments are much more direct in dealing with the flooding problem than the environmental assessments as suggested by Dr TSO WONG Man-yin. 　

Third, long term structural measures include river training and village flood protection schemes. In regard to the NWNT, currently, 10 kilometres of the Shan Pui River and the Kam Tin River are under construction. Approximately 75% of the works has been finished and the remaining works will be completed next year. The overall plan is to train 36 kilometres of river channels covering the Shan Pui River, the Kam Tin River, the Ngau Tam Mei drainage channel, the Yuen Long By-pass Floodway and the San Tin drainage channel and some smaller channels. New works contracts will be underway. The total estimated cost is $3 billion. All major works will be completed by 2002, when flooding will be reduced to a minimum in the region. 　

In regard to Members' requests to speed up the works, we have already expedited the programme following the critical path of operations. However, there are operational constraints that we have to address. For instance, we have to consider interface with other major projects in the area, such as the Route 3 and the West Rail. 　

To further tackle local flood problems, starting in 1995, the Government has instigated seven drainage master plan studies which cover all flood prone areas in the territory. These studies will look into the secondary and local stormwater drainage systems and devise long term improvement measures. The first drainage master plan study covers the Tin Shui Wai and the Yuen Long, Kam Tin and Ngau Tam Mei drainage basins of the NWNT. It commenced in 1996 and will be completed early next year. All seven drainage master plans will be completed by 1999. 　

Complementary to the river training projects, we have instigated village flood protection schemes, which Members have also mentioned, in flood prone areas in the New Territories. These schemes will protect low-lying villages that are at levels below the new drainage channels by collecting water in flood storage ponds and pumping it into the drainage channels. A protective bund is also constructed around the village to keep out flood water. Altogether 11 flood protection schemes will be constructed. Three of the planned schemes at Chau Tau, Sha Po and San Tin are under construction and the scheme at Sha Po is expected to be completed by the end of 1998 and which at Chau Tau and San Tin by the end of 1999. New works contracts will be let in phases commencing next year. Operationally, we will have to complete river training before the discharge from the flood protection scheme can be accommodated. These works take time and cannot be done in one single move. 　

Dr TANG Siu-tong and other Members have mentioned about the delays in works. I have also said that the implementation of the flood prevention schemes has been delayed due to objections to land resumption during gazetting of some of the schemes. According to our latest estimation, all flood protection schemes should be completed by the end of 2004. 　

The discharge from Shenzhen. With regard to the impact on Hong Kong of discharges from the Shenzhen Reservoir, the Shenzhen authorities have agreed with us to inform us as early as possible and preferably two hours before they will discharge; they will also do their best to limit the discharge rate so that the impact on the Hong Kong side will be minimized. On receiving notice from the Shenzhen side of a possible discharge, rescue services provided by the Fire Services Department, Home Affairs Department and Hong Kong Police will be put on alert to handle any possible impact and villagers who are likely to be affected will be informed as early as possible. 　

On the most recent occasion of discharge during Typhoon Victor on 2 August 1997, although the situation was, as pointed out by the Honourable CHOY Kan-pui, that we only had a 45-minute notice, we immediately suggested the Shenzhen authorities to reduce the discharge rate because the high tide then prevailing would aggravate the flooding. Thanks to our long-time close co-operation with the Shenzhen authorities, they reduced the discharge rate from 60 to 45 cubic metres per minute. The entire water discharging operation was closely monitored by the Emergency Control Centre of the Drainage Services Department and Emergency Monitoring and Support Centre of the Government Secretariat through river gauges at vulnerable locations. The impact of the discharge was thus confined locally to the low-lying areas around Lo Wu and Man Kam To. We will record all the ideas put forward by Members today and explore with the Shenzhen authorities these ideas and the feasibility of serving earlier notices of flood discharge in our next meeting with them. 　

As regards the Shenzhen River regulation works, as pointed out by Members, the first phase of the works has actually been completed one month ahead of schedule and the second phase is now underway. As for the third phase, we have already approved the preliminary feasibility study and the consultants will design the third phase of the works for us by the end of this year. However, land resumption is relatively difficult. According to our present estimation, it may take about three years to reclaim all the needed lands for the implementation of the third phase of the works. We hope that this phase of the works will commence in early 2001. 　

In conclusion, the Government has a comprehensive "three-tier" plan, as described by Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, and will provide all the necessary resources to mitigate the flooding problems in the NWNT. The plan includes land use management and development controls, proactive flood mitigation measures, and reactive flood mitigation measures. Whilst mitigation of flooding problem takes time and there will not be any quick-fix solutions, results of our efforts are steadily emerging. We expect to complete by the end of 1999 the training of the first 10 kilometres of the most critical sections of the rivers in the NWNT, thereby greatly reducing flooding in the NWNT. We will do our part, and we hope to expedite our flood protection and drainage improvement works with the support and co-operation of the community in such matters as land resumption and getting rid of the habit of casual dumping of refuse and construction wastes. 　

Thank you, Mr Deputy. 　

THE PRESIDENT resumed the chair. 　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong, you are now entitled to reply and you have four minutes 42 seconds, out of your original 15 minutes. 　

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank all Members who have spoken in support of my motion, especially Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Dr Raymond HO, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin and Mr CHOY Kan-pui. Just now, Mr LAU Wong-fat mentioned that as early as 10 years ago, he already raised the necessity of mitigating of the flooding problem in the New Territories and that he recommended the establishment of a flood prevention team. However, the Government has never paid attention to his advice, and it was only until recently that the Government finally came up with a flooding impact assessment. Hence, it can be seen that the flooding assessment proposed by Dr TSO WONG Man-yin just now was actually first recommended by Mr LAU Wong-fat a long time ago, and the Government's recent response can only be described as "belated awareness". Nevertheless, I am still very glad to see that the Government has started many projects and assessments to prevent the aggravation of the flooding problem in the northwest New Territories. 　

Regarding phase three of the Shenzhen River Regulation Project which Mr CHOY Kan-pui discussed a moment ago, the Government has commented that it would take three years before the project can be implemented. I regret to hear that. Two days ago, some Members and I visited the Shenzhen River Regulation Office. They told us of their hope to implement phase two and phase three of the works all at the same time, explaining that the completion of phase two will not possibly mitigate the flooding problem in the northern New Territories if works on phase three are held up. Therefore, now that the preliminary study report has already been completed, can the Government speed up implemention of the project, so as to enable the residents of the northern New Territories to sleep, live and eat more peacefully? 　

When talking about the recent flooding incidents, the Government said that one reason was the objection to land resumption put up by some people. Actually, under the Land Drainage Ordinance enacted in 1994, the Government has the power to enter private lands to carry out drainage works without the need to obtain the consent of the landowners. This can be considered a stop-gap measure. If this stop-gap measure cannot help solve the recent flooding problem, what is the use of enacting the Ordinance? Has the Government ever invoked the Ordinance to carry out the works required? Is there a problem of manpower shortage? According to the Government, in the dry season, rivers are inspected once a month and in the rainy season, the number of inspections is increased to twice a month. But, as far as I can notice, they have failed to do so, I have inspected many rivers myself, and found that the rivers were still blocked by debris, grass and construction wastes. The recent floods, whether in the western New Territories or Sham Shiu Po in the urban area, were precisely the result of this. I wonder how the Government would explain that.

The Government once said that the flooding problem could be resolved by 2000. But, now it says that we have to wait until 2004. I hope that the Government will not tell us later that we have to wait until 2100. Flooding is a serious problem, not just for the northwest New Territories but also for the whole territory of Hong Kong. Several days ago, I had a lunch appointment with Mr LAU, a Bureau head, but he was also caught up in the flood in Central and was late as a result. This shows that flooding is a big problem, not just for the northwest New Territories, but also for urban Kowloon and urban Hong Kong. I hope that the Government will pay close attention to this problem and work out a solution to it, so that our people can live and work in peace. This is my greatest hope. 　

On our contacts with the Shenzhen authorities, I hope that the Government can really liaise closely with them. We have talked to the Shenzhen River Regulation Office and Shenzhen officials. According to them, if they have better meteorological equipment, they will be able to forecast the amount of rainfall they are about to receive and when their reservoirs will be full. In such a case, they may be able to inform us one or half a day, or at least six or seven hours in advance. To us, this is the best preventive measure. 　

Lastly, I would like to thank all Members once again for their support. Thank you. 　

　

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr TANG Siu-tong be approved. 　

Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I now adjourn the meeting until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 3 September 1997. 　

Adjourned accordingly at fifteen minutes to Eight o'clock. 　

　

Annex I

　

WRITTEN ANSWER

　

　

Written answer by the Secretary for Education and Manpower to Dr TANG Siu-tang's supplementary question to Question 4　

The number of safety talks organized for secondary schools by the Labour Department (LD) and the Occupational Safety and Health Council (OSHC) respectively is at the appendix.

From 1995 onwards the Occupational Safety and Health Council (OSHC) has taken over from the LD the general publicity and promotional work on occupational safety and health matters. Since then the LD has concentrated on organizing briefings for employers and employees on the contents and implications of new legislation and amendment legislation. Although the Department still provides assistance to the OSHC, it has greatly reduced the number of safety talks organized for schools. On the other hand, the OSHC has prepared activity based teaching kits for more effective promotion of occupational safety and health concepts among the students. These teaching kits have been distributed to all secondary schools in Hong Kong for use by their teachers during classes. The themes of the first two sets of such teaching kits are on summer job safety and general occupational safety and health knowledge. Even though the teaching kits can replace the need for safety talks, the OSHC will still organize such talks for individual schools from time to time upon invitation.

Appendix

　

Safety talks organized for secondary schools

　

Year	No. of Schools			No. of Classes					No. of Participants
	LD	OSHC	Total		LD	OSHC	Total	LD		OSHC	Total
1994	67	1	68		525	3	528	20 362		900	21 262
1995	10	2	12		42	2	44	2 226		530	2 756
1996	7	40	47		23	120	143	798		13 202	14 000
1997#	6	49	55		56	147	203	2 250		10 898	13 148

　

#As at 31 August 1997

　

Annex II

　

ELECTORAL AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

　

COMMITTEE STAGE

　

Amendments to be moved by the Secretary for

Constitutional Affairs

　

Clause			Amendment Proposed
2(1)	(a)		In paragraph (a) of the definition of "補選", by deleting "並非因任期屆滿而懸空" and substituting "任期屆滿".
	(b)		In the definition of "Commission", by deleting "(選委會)" and substituting "(選管會)".
	(c)		In the definition of "member of the Commission", by deleting "(選委會" and substituting "(選管會".
3	(a)		In subclause (5) -
				(i)	in paragraph (c), by deleting "has become" and substituting "becomes";
				(ii)	in paragraph (e), by deleting "a military force of the Central People's Government" and substituting "the armed forces of the Central People's Government or any other country";
				(iii)	in paragraph (f) (v), by deleting everything after "election committee" and substituting a semicolon.
	(b)		By adding-
				"(10) Subsections (4) and (5) (other than subsection (5)(d)) apply in respect of a member of a committee established or appointed under section 7(1) (g), subject to necessary modifications, as if they apply in respect of a member of the Commission.".
4(g)	By deleting everything after "under this" and substituting "or any other Ordinance; and".
5	(a)		In paragraph (f), by deleting "enactment" and substituting "Ordinance".
	(b)		In paragraph (g), by deleting everything after "under this " and substituting "or any other Ordinance.".
6	(a)		In subclause (1) (a) (ii) (B), by adding "any" before "other".
	(b)		In subclause (3), by adding "or, subject to subsection (4), take such action (including the issuing of a reprimand or censure), as" after "decision".
	(c)		By adding -
				"(4) Before the Commission reprimands or censures any person under subsection (3), it shall make a reasonable effort to contact that person and give a reasonable opportunity for that person to make representations to the Commission as to why the reprimand or censure should not be issued.".
7(7)	By deleting "(選區或選舉組別)" and substituting "(選區或選舉界別)".
8(1)	By deleting everything after " under this " and substituting " or any other Ordinance.".
11	By deleting "Ordinance or any other enactment" and substituting "or any other Ordinance".
12(1) (a)	By deleting everything after "under this" and substituting "or any other Ordinance; or".
13	(a)			In subclause (1) -
				(i)	by deleting paragraph (a) (ii) and substituting -
					"(ii)	from being a member of the election committee;";
				(ii)	by deleting paragraph (b) (v) and substituting -
					"(v)	being a member of the election committee.".
	(b)			By adding -
				"(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall apply in relation to a member of a committee established or appointed under section 7(1)(g), subject to necessary modifications, as if they apply in relation to a member of the Commission.".
14	(a)		In subclause (1) -
				(i)	in paragraph (a), by deleting everything after "omitted to be done" and substituting", by it in good faith in the performance of a function or the purported performance of a function under this or any other Ordinance; or";
				(ii)	in paragraph (b), by deleting "by him or in good faith in the" and substituting ", by him in good faith in the performance of a function or the purported".
	(b)			In subclause (2), by deleting ", statement or writing or otherwise" and substituting "or statement, in writing or otherwise,".
18	(a)		In subclause (3) -
				(i)	in paragraph (a), by adding "and" at the end;
				(ii)	by deleting paragraphs (b) and (c) and substituting -
					"(b)	in respect of each subsequent election, not later than 12 months before the date of the election to which the report relates.".
		(b)	In subclause (4), by deleting "(3) (c)" and substituting "(3) (b)".
19(9)		By deleting everything after "read" and substituting - 　 "as if - (a) a reference to 14 days were substituted for the reference to 30 days in subsection (1); and 　 (b) a reference to not less than 14 days were substituted for the reference to 30 days in subsection (4).".
20(1)(b)		By deleting "25%" and substituting "15%".
23(2)		By deleting "sitting" where it twice occurs and substituting "meeting".
Schedule 1, Part II		In subparagraph (b) (iii), by adding "(except persons holding an office specified in item 4 of the Schedule to the repealed Ordinance)" before the semicolon.
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 22 and Schedules 1 and 2		By deleting "選委會" wherever it occurs and substituting "選管會".
Parts II, III, IV and V and Schedule 2		In the heading, by deleting "選委會" and substituting "選管會".
3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 15 and 16		In the heading, by deleting "選委會"and substituting "選管會".

　

ELECTORAL AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

COMMITTEE STAGE

Amendments to be moved by Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP

Clause	Amendment Proposed
2(1)	By adding -
	""Selection Committee"¡]±À¿ï©e­û·|¡^means the Selection Committee referred to in the Decision of the National People's Congress on the Method for the Formation of the First Government and the First Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region adopted at the Third Session of the Seventh National People's Congress on 4 April 1990.¡¨.
3(5)	(a)	By adding before paragraph (a) ¢w
		(aa)	If he is nominated as a candidate for Election as Chief Executive ;
		(ab)	if he is a member of the Selection Committee;
		(ac)	if he is or becomes a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex 1 to the Basic Law;".
	(b)	By adding -
		"(da)	if he is or becomes a member of any national, regional or municipal congress, legislature, assembly or council of any place outside Hong Kong;
		(db)	if he is or becomes a member of -
			(i)	the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference; or
			(ii)	a Local Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference;".
	(c)	In paragraph (f), by adding before subparagraph (i) -
		"(ia)	has been nominated as a candidate in the election of the Chief Executive;
		(ib)	has been a member of the Selection Committee;
		(ic)	has been a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law;
		(id)	has been a member of the Executive Council;
		(ie)	has been a member of the Executive Council which existed before 1 July 1997;".
	(d)	By adding -
	"(g)	if, within the 4 years immediately before the date of appointment (were he to be appointed), he has been a member of -
		(i)	any national, regional or municipal congress, legislature, assembly or council of any place outside Hong Kong;
		(ii)	the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference; or
		(iii)	a Local Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.".
13(1)	(a)	By adding before paragraph (a) -
		"(aa)	a member, during his term of office, is disqualified from -
			(i)		being nominated as a candidate for Election as Chief Executive;
			(ii)		becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law; or
			(iii)		becoming a member of the Executive Council;".
	(b)	In paragraph (b), by adding before subparagraph (i) -
		"(ia)	being nominated as a candidate for election as Chief Executive;
		(ib)	becoming a member of the Election Committee referred to in Annex I to the Basic Law;
		(ic)	becoming a member of the Executive Council;".

Schedule 1 By deleting subparagraph (b)(viii).

Part II

ELECTORAL AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

COMMITTEE STAGE

Amendments to be moved by the Hon LAU Kong-wah

Clause	Amendment Proposed
2(1)	By adding - ""political body" (¬Fªv©Ê¹ÎÅé) means -
	(a)	a political party or an organization that purports to be a political party; or
	(b)	an organization whose principal function or main object is to promote or prepare a candidate for an election;".
3(5)(a)	(a)	In subparagraph (iii) by deleting "or" at the end.
	(b)	In subparagraph (iv) by adding "or" at the end.
	(c)	By adding -
		"(v)	a member of any political body;".
Schedule 1 Part II In subparagraph (a)
	(a)	in sub-subparagraph (ii) by deleting "or" at the end.
	(b)	in sub-subparagraph (iii) by deleting "and" at the end and substituting "or".
	(c)	by adding -
		"(iv)	a member of any political body; and".