OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 3 September 1997

The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, G.B.M.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE ELSIE LEUNG OI-SIE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

MRS RITA LAU NG WAI-LAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT

MR GREGORY LEUNG WING-LUP, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL

MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rules of Procedure 21(2):

Subject

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
Commodities Trading (Trading Limits and Position Limits) (Amendment) (No. 3) Rules 1997	426/97
Trainee Solicitors (Amendment) Rules 1997	427/97
Buildings (Amendment) Ordinance 1996 (54 of 1996) (Commencement) (No. 2) Notice 1997	428/97
Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Asbestos) Regulation (L.N. 74 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	429/97

MISCELLANEOUS

Technical Memorandum for Supervision Plans

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Good afternoon, Honourable Members. Questions. We will devote about one hour to questions. I would like once again to remind Members regarding supplementaries. Firstly, the introductory remarks should be as concise as possible. Secondly, to enable public officers to focus on their replies, only one question may be asked in a supplementary question.

Control on use of Pyrotechnics and Explosives by Film Industry

1. MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the film industry in Hong Kong is the third largest producer of films as well as the second largest exporter in the world. And Hong Kong films for export mainly depend on action movies. The use of explosives can be said to be indispensable during the process of producing action films. However, the use of explosives by the industry has all along been illegal and public safety is not duly protected. Will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the measures in place to control the use of pyrotechnics and explosives by the film industry in shooting films, and how such control is exercised currently;

2. whether it will consider establishing a "film blasters" licensing system so that competent persons will be able to obtain the requisite licence upon passing a qualifying examination and use pyrotechnics and explosives lawfully for the purpose of shooting films; and

3. if the answer to (b) is in the affirmative, what specific criteria will be adopted by the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau to assess the competence of applicants for the licence; and whether training courses will be provided to assist film workers in obtaining the licence?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, my reply is as follows:

1. The following control measures are in place to control the use of pyrotechnics in shooting films:
   1. The use of pyrotechnics in shooting films is regulated by Section 59 of the Dangerous Goods (General) Regulations (Cap. 295), and a permit is required for such activities. The Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport and the Director of Marine are the authorities responsible for issue of permits for the discharge of pyrotechnics on land and on water respectively. They will consult relevant departments (including the Hong Kong Police Force, Fire Services Department, Mines and Quarries Division of the Civil Engineering Department, and the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department), and set licensing conditions relating to fire precautions and the protection of public safety before approving any application for a permit.

   2. A pyrotechnician responsible for the discharge of pyrotechnics must be registered with the Commissioner of Mines before a permit is granted. This is to ensure that pyrotechnics are discharged by a pyrotechnician who is experienced in discharging pyrotechnics and producing pyrotechnic effect. A pyrotechnician is usually required to give a demonstration in respect of the discharge of pyrotechnics which is the subject of a permit application.

   3. A licence and a permit issued by the Commissioner of Mines is required for storage and conveyance of pyrotechnics respectively.

   4. A declaration of fitness issued by the Marine Department is required for a vessel carrying or conveying pyrotechnics.

   5. The use of fuel gas in film shooting should comply with the relevant provisions of the Gas Safety Ordinance (Cap. 51). Under the Registration of Gas Installers and Gas Contractors Regulations, any gas installation work should be carried out by a registered gas installer employed by a registered gas contractor.

   6. A dangerous goods licence should be obtained from the Director of Fire Services for using more than 20 litres of petrol in shooting films.

   7. The Hong Kong Police Force (HKPF) does not have specific control measures at present. However, the use of modified firearms and blank ammunition will require an exemption permit issued by the Licensing Division of the HKPF. The Police Public Relations Branch should be informed of the film-shooting three working days in advance.

   To ensure compliance with the conditions set out in the permits, the Mines and Quarries Division of the Civil Engineering Department conducts surprise checks. Depending on the scale of the approved activities, the Marine Department will deploy its launches to patrol the waters concerned. If necessary, they will notify the Marine Police to be on the alert. Officers of the Marine Department on board its patrol launches will also closely monitor such activities.

2. While the Government has adopted measures to assess the competence of pyrotechnicians in using pyrotechnics for shooting films, there is no statutory requirement for a pyrotechnician to be registered. We shall review the existing application procedures and arrangements, and shall consider carefully the feasibility of introducing a pyrotechnician licensing system if its establishment is conducive to the safe use of pyrotechnics in film shooting by the film industry.

3. Apart from pyrotechnics, dangerous goods such as fuel and inflammable gas will also be used in making films to enhance the effect and the sense of reality of explosion scenes. To protect the safety of film-making personnel and the public, any new proposals on the regulation of the use of pyrotechnics will require careful examination by the relevant government departments. We intend to consult and discuss with the film industry on implementation standards with a view to coming up with a regulatory system which can protect public safety on the one hand and is user-and business-friendly to the film industry on the other.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I would like to raise a number of supplementary questions. But am I allowed to raise just one question for the time being?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes, please raise your hand again later.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK(in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council how many applications for the use of explosives in film shooting have been made in the past four years; and how many permits have been issued by the Government?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): In the past four years, the Marine Department has not received any application while the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau has received only two applications.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Honourable Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, apart from contributing to the cultural and entertainment sector in Hong Kong, the production and export of Hong Kong films will also enhance the international reputation of Hong Kong. From the earlier reply, we learn that quite a number of government departments are involved in this area. Examples are the Marine Department, the HKPF, the Fire Services Department and the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department. Has the Government considered streamlining and simplifying the application procedures to facilitate the film makers and film workers to obtain the appropriate permits with greater ease and certainty?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I said in my reply, the Government is pleased to review the existing application procedures and arrangements for the permits with the film industry. On the other hand, the Government will also strengthen communication between the licensing authority and the film industry in the hope that this will help the film industry understand the regulatory system and assist workers in the industry in applying for permits to ensure the safe shooting of films in which pyrotechnics are used.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have indeed personally witnessed in-depth discussions by a relevant select committee of the former Government as well as people outside this Council and in the industry. However, according to the Government's reply and some of the statistics we heard just now, no application has been made in the past few years and neither has the Government given any approval. But in reality, there are a lot of scenes involving gun fights and explosions in Hong Kong films and it is obvious that the Government has been turning a blind eye to it. Under what circumstances will the Government address this question squarely and take concrete measures to solve this problem? When will the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau really take up the co-ordinating role and carry out this duty as soon as possible? When will the Bureau be able to formulate a plan for safety protection; and can it give us a definite timetable?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we are sincerely and actively conducting a dialogue with the industry. Of course, at the present stage, I cannot rashly give Members an unrealistic timetable when we have not studied any plan in concrete terms yet. But I can promise and assure Members that we will follow up this issue as soon as possible and conduct a further study with the industry to make improvements.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, as far as I know, explosives are used by the film industry for more than 500 film-shooting days every year. In the past four years, there might be 2 000 such scenes in total. But in reality, only two applications have been made and no approval has been granted by the Government. In my opinion, this is a very serious problem. Will the Government inform this Council how it looks at the present situation where some people in the film industry risk their own lives and run the risk of violating the law by making, importing, storing and using explosives for the purpose of providing entertainment for the public? In fact, they earnestly hope that the Government can provide them with certain legal and reasonable protection. I hope the Government can respond by telling us how it views this question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe the Honourable MA Fung-kwok's remarks precisely reflect the seriousness of the problem. I believe the crux of the matter is often two-sided. On the one hand, a system is already in place. But people in the industry feel that the system is inconvenient and therefore refrain from making applications. But in reality, they need to use pyrotechnics. As a result, they still use pyrotechnics despite the fact that they have not made applications for that purpose.

From the standpoint of the Government, we will, of course, urge the industry to make applications before they use pyrotechnics because in the course of the applications, various departments will prescribe the necessary precautions for using pyrotechnics. Even though the requirements may be complicated or a vetting procedure is needed, all these aim at one important objective and that is to ensure the safety of film workers and the public, as well as maintaining social order. So I hope pyrotechnics are used in a legal manner.

I agree that the procedures should be simplified through closer co-operation of various departments. So we are willing to study with the industry to see whether a new system should be adopted or in what manner the applications could be facilitated so that the film industry will be more willing to make applications for the purpose of assisting them in film shooting.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK Ying-fan.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, as Mrs Selina CHOW has said just now, the former Government has already discussed this issue in great detail. We all know that ammunition and pyrotechnics are used in all explosion scenes. Did the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau consider it more appropriate for the Security Bureau to handle this issue as it was entirely involved with arms and ammunition? Is it because of this reason that the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau has been hesitant about making an appropriate decision?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): I cannot answer this question on behalf of the Secretary for Security. But I can say with certainty that the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau undertook the work of issuing permits when the application system was formulated.

Regarding the application system, the Government has all along forbidden the use of firecrackers and pyrotechnics until this policy was amended in 1993 to allow the use of pyrotechnics for television programmes, film shooting and on the stage. Therefore, the application system has been in operation since 1993. There are numerous cases for the use of pyrotechnics on stage and a lot of such applications have been made, with more than 80% of which were successful. If a certain system can deal with the use of pyrotechnics on stage, we think that system should also be applicable to similar situations in shooting television programmes and films. We are not trying to pass the buck from one Bureau to another. As the system is already in place, the question is how we are going to strengthen and perfect it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the reply given by the Government just now, we all understand that this is an inter-departmental issue. Even one single application may involve at least five departments as one kind of the explosives used may be under the control of Department A while another kind under the control of Department B. As a result, at least five to six departments will be responsible for controlling the same case while the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau acts as the co-ordinator. Can the Secretary tell us whether this system is practical? In the past, people in the industry had urged the Government to set up a film development council for co-ordinating issues relating to film shooting and various departments in carrying out the relevant work. However, the Government was not in favour of this proposal. Will the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau re-consider the setting up of a film development council to be responsible for other duties relating to film production, apart from solving the problem pertaining to explosives?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, the industry has, on past occasions, repeatedly called for the setting up of a film commission or a film development council. However, the Government considers that at present various departments and public organizations, such as the Hong Kong Trade Development Council, Hong Kong Arts Development Council and Hong Kong Tourist Association, have been providing the film industry with supporting services like location shooting and film promotion in overseas countries. These services have, by and large, covered the functions of a film development council. We therefore cannot support the allocation of additional public funds for the setting up of a film commission outside the existing framework. Nevertheless, the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau will of course closely monitor the development of the film industry and review, as far as possible, the existing support for the industry. As a matter of fact, when the Financial Secretary proposed the promotion of the service industries in 1996, the film industry was listed as one of the 14 service industries. We have also set out some "Action Agenda" on the support services to be provided for the film industry. As such, we have already provided some support services for the industry at different levels and in different aspects.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, under the cameras of local televisions, there is only smoke in this Council and there is no fire, not to mention explosives. Is the Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport aware that the present regulatory system of this Council is perfect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, in my reply, I often mentioned pyrotechnics instead of explosives. In fact, I did it on purpose because different types of explosives are regulated by different ordinances. Regarding the issue of regulation and the assumption that there is illegal use of pyrotechnics by the film industry, unless the Government sets up a system requiring the industry to provide its schedule of film shooting to inform the Government of what is happening in every corner of the movie world, the suggestion of sending our staff to monitor every site will be unrealistic.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think the Secretary has not answered my question. My question is: there is only smoke in this Council and there is no fire, not to mention explosives. Does it imply that the regulatory system of this Council is perfect? I am not referring to the whole territory. Now the Radio Television Hong Kong is shooting us.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, your question has no particular relevance to the territory-wide issue in the context of the main question. I think you were only being humorous and it has been put down in record. I now direct the Secretary that she is not required to answer this question. If there is no further question, we shall move on to Question 2. The Honourable Mrs Elsie TU.

Repatriation of Foreign Prisoners in Hong Kong

2. MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, will the Government inform this Council whether all prisoners of Britain, European and North American nationalities serving prison terms in Hong Kong were sent back to their countries of origin shortly before the reunification of Hong Kong with the Mainland, while requests for the same treatment from prisoners whose countries of origin are in the "Third World" were rejected; if so, what were the relevant details?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, prior to 1 July 1997, transfer of prisoners between Hong Kong and another country were effected under the following arrangements:

1. Transfer between Hong Kong and 23 countries, which include 20 European countries and the United States, Canada and Turkey, may be effected under the Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons, which was extended to Hong Kong by the Repatriation of Prisoners (Overseas Territories) Order 1986 as subsequently amended.

2. Transfer between Hong Kong and Thailand may be effected under the United Kingdom - Thailand Agreement on the Transfer of Offenders and on Co-operation in the Enforcement of Penal Sentences, which was extended to Hong Kong by the Repatriation of Prisoners (Overseas Territories) Order 1986 as subsequently amended.

3. Transfer between Hong Kong and the United Kingdom may be effected pursuant to an arrangement between the Hong Kong Government and the United Kingdom Government in November 1988, and on the basis of the provisions of the Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons, such an arrangement was given legal effect by virtue of section 1 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 extended to Hong Kong by the Repatriation of Prisoners (Overseas Territories) Order 1986 as subsequently amended.

Taken together, these arrangements provide for the transfer of prisoners between Hong Kong and 25 countries, most of which are in Europe and North America. Transfer of prisoners between Hong Kong and other countries of the world, including most so-called "Third World" countries, was not legally possible under any of the above three arrangements.

In the first six months of 1997, a total of eight prisoners were transferred out of Hong Kong to continue to serve their sentences in their home countries. These include one to Turkey, one to Norway, one to the Netherlands, two to Canada, two to the United Kingdom and one to Ireland. In the same period, 11 prisoners were transferred into Hong Kong to continue to serve their sentences; these include 10 from Thailand and one from the United States.

No request for outward transfer of prisoners who meet the legal requirements mentioned above has been refused.

PRESIDENT: Mrs Elsie TU.

MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, as prisoners from some African countries have complained of discrimination in the repatriation schemes, would the Secretary tell us what steps can be taken to make similar arrangements with countries not covered by the Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons in overseas territories because the present arrangements give the impression that treatment is discriminatory?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, let me perhaps clarify that the arrangements that I described in my main reply, that is the Council of Europe Convention, the United Kingdom - Thailand Agreement, and the arrangements between Hong Kong and the United Kingdom no longer apply in Hong Kong after 30 June 1997. The legal provision governing the transfer of sentenced persons now is in the form of the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Ordinance which was enacted by the former Legislative Council in May to June 1997. The normal arrangement whereby prisoners' transfers are effected is by means of negotiating bilateral Hong Kong-third country agreements on the subject of transfer of sentenced persons. In specific and urgent cases before such a bilateral agreement can be concluded, it is possible to deal with individual specific cases on the basis of the transfer of sentenced persons. But it is a much more satisfactory arrangement where transfer between Hong Kong and another country can be regulated by a binding international treaty. We are of course authorized by the Central People's Government to conduct a programme of negotiations with other countries on agreements on the transfer of sentenced persons and we are carrying out such a programme.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHIM Pui-chung.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in his reply, the Secretary said that the transfer of prisoners between Hong Kong and other countries of the world, including most so-called "Third World" countries, was not legally possible under any of the three arrangements mentioned above. Why did the Secretary fail to give us a clear explanation as to why it was not possible? Although the Secretary has mentioned in his reply that there are such arrangements, the arrangements are not substantial. Would the Secretary tell us whether attempts have been made through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China to facilitate the return of Hong Kong prisoners who are serving sentences in a third country, so that they can continue to serve their sentences here under the Ordinance?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, when I mentioned "not legally possible" in my main reply, I was firstly explaining the situation before the return of Hong Kong to China on 1 July 1997. Secondly, when I said "not legally possible", I meant that before 1 July 1997, if a certain prisoner said, "I want to return to my home country to serve out my prison term" but his country was not one of the 25 countries mentioned in my reply, then legally speaking, we were unable to repatriate this prisoner to his home country to serve his sentence. But the situation after 1 July 1997 is different. Firstly, we have already enacted an ordinance on the transfer of sentenced persons which allows us to make appropriate arrangements with a third country for the transfer of prisoners. At the same time, we have now started negotiations with other countries in the hope of concluding bilateral agreements on administering the arrangements on the transfer of prisoners. And this is what we are doing now. For example, we have spent some time in the past to conduct one round of negotiation with the Thai Government as Members are also aware that quite a large number of Hong Kong people are serving prison sentences in Thailand. We have now managed to make some progress in this aspect. When we have concluded a formal bilateral agreement with Thailand on the transfer of sentenced persons, we can then continue to exchange prisoners with the Thai Government by my of the bilateral agreement. After 1 July 1997, the policy or practice as I have mentioned does not, in principle, distinguish which countries are from the First World, the Second World or the Third World. Our main concern is with which country we want to reach an bilateral agreement and it will depend on our practical needs. For example, how many prisoners from certain countries are being detained in the Correctional Services Department in Hong Kong; and which countries detain more Hong Kong prisoners than other countries do? These are our main considerations.

PRESIDENT: The Honourable Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Madam President, the Honourable Mrs Elsie TU asked the Government to inform this Council whether all prisoners from Britain, Europe and the Third World were transferred. In his reply, the Secretary for Security mentioned eight were transferred and also that no request was refused. Can the Secretary enlighten us on whether these eight indeed account for all such categories of prisoners, or whether they are a major proportion or only a drop in the ocean, as far as this category of prisoners is concerned?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, the eight that I referred to in my main reply are those prisoners who have made application under the arrangement for the transfer of sentenced persons then applying in Hong Kong before 1 July 1997. Obviously, eight is a very small number as compared to the total number of prisoners from foreign countries serving sentences in Hong Kong. In fact, as of now, and I do not think the numbers would have changed dramatically between now and several months ago, we have something like 985 foreign prisoners serving prison sentences in Hong Kong.

PRESIDENT: The Honourable Mrs Elsie TU.

MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, some were Third World country prisoners. I call them that because they are dark-skinned, and they did request repatriation before July 1997. Is there any reason why steps were not taken to make a legal agreement with those other countries in the same way as agreements were made with European countries?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, if they have asked about the possibility of repatriation to their own countries which are outside the 25 countries that I had mentioned in the main reply, they would have been advised that such was not possible legally before 1 July 1997. On the question about agreements on the transfer of sentenced persons, I think Members might have noticed that by and large these arrangements are a fairly recent phenomena. The three arrangements that I described in my main reply came into effect for Hong Kong in the mid-1980s. By that time, of course we were already on our way to preparing for the transfer of sovereignty on 1 July 1997. And like a number of issues in the era of international co-operation on law enforcement, the policy that we had taken was, instead of reaching or trying to reach further United Kingdom-third country bilateral agreements extended to Hong Kong, that we should embark on a programme of bilateral Hong Kong - other country negotiations with a view that the agreements that may be reached in these negotiations can then survive the change of sovereignty on 1 July 1997. That is the position that we are in now. We are of course also looking at a number of other countries with which we would want to negotiate bilateral agreements covering the transfer of sentenced persons.

PRESIDENT: The Honourable Mrs Elsie TU.

MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, it is quite clear that these arrangements were made particularly in Britain's view of 1997. Am I right to understand that priority was given to Europeans?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, the arrangements that I described in my main reply was not made in view of the change of sovereignty in 1997. They were made and then applied to Hong Kong at the time, and it was useful that we have those agreements. What we have tried to devise was a system having regard to the transfer of sovereignty on 1 July 1997 would survive that change of sovereignty. And that system was built on two premises; first, the legal premise, that is, the enactment of our own legislation on the transfer of sentenced persons and second, the negotiation and conclusion of agreements between Hong Kong, and of course the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, and other countries that would be able to survive after 1997.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

Institutions of Continuing Education and Tutorial Schools

3. MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the actions taken by the Education Department in dealing with those institutions of continuing education and tutorials schools which enrol students prior to registration as a school under the relevant legislation;

2. of the number of complaints against such institutions received by the Education Department over the past three years, and the nature of such complaints; and

3. whether the Education Ordinance will be amended to stipulate that all institutions of continuing education and tutorial schools be not allowed to enrol students before registration?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President,

1. The Education Department (ED) will take the initiative to contact those unregistered schools which have placed enrolment advertisements and remind the school operators that the school cannot start operation before it is granted approval for provisional registration. Otherwise, they will contravene the Education Ordinance. Besides, the ED will try its best to assist the applicant complete the registration procedures as soon as possible. Separately, the Education Ordinance stipulates that unregistered schools cannot claim in advertisements that they are registered.

2. From 1 September 1994 to 31 July 1997, the Education Department has received a total of 358 complaints about school registration, of these about 300 were related to tutorial schools. Most of the complaints concerning unregistered tutorial schools include complaints about school operation without registration, the rest are about expensive school fees, inadequate fire safety facilities and so on.

3. The Education Ordinance applies to all schools and organizations offering education programmes. There is a practical need for many schools to enrol students, while their applications are being processed, so as to proceed with the necessary preparation and administrative work such as employment of teachers, arrangement of classes, timetabling, procurement of furniture and teaching equipment and so on. If the Government amends the Education Ordinance disallowing enrolment of students before schools are provisionally registered, it would affect the operation of these schools. Therefore the Government does not intend to amend the relevant provisions in the Education Ordinance. However, in order to more effectively protect the interest of students, we are actively considering whether it is necessary to amend the existing legislation to prohibit schools from collecting fees or any other charges before they are provisionally registered.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Secretary inform this Council of the reason why action was taken against those unregistered schools only recently after a large number of complaints have been received? Is it a dereliction of duty on the part of the ED?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is a usual practice of the ED to take follow-up action after complaints have been received or when investigations conducted on the initiative of the Department show that some institutions or tutorial schools are operating without registration.

As a first step, the ED will issue a warning letter to the institution or the tutorial school concerned. If necessary, it will take further action and this will include requesting the police to investigate. Sometimes, the findings of such an investigation may lead to prosecution. For example, in the previous school year, that is, 1996-97, the ED has issued 193 warning letters and instituted eight prosecutions.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, in view of the fact that these tutorial schools are commercial in nature and targeted at students and youngsters, I would like to ask the Secretary what policy or measure will the Administration adopt in order to ensure that the academic and educational level as well as the direction of these tutorial schools are correct and they are not only aimed at teaching the students on a commercial basis as to how to sit for examinations, thereby avoiding giving the youngsters a wrong concept about education?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the existing registration provisions, there are some basic requirements, such as the students of an institution or tutorial school cannot exceed a certain number. Moreover, teachers of these institutions have to meet certain basic requirements, that is, they must be registered with the ED, or approved by the ED for taking up the teaching posts. Also, we have to realize that many tutorial schools do not offer the conventional or mainstream curriculum. Basically they are geared to certain subjects or may even provide a certain kind of education or service for a particular type of examination. We will take up the matter with the ED to see whether the qualification of the teachers and the curriculum can be further regulated. Of course, the existing Ordinance may be amended when necessary.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it was pointed out in the complaints referred to just now that some of the fees are exceedingly high. I would like to seek a clarification from the Secretary because I do not quite understand. Is it true that all fees and charges should be approved by the ED?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, two aspects are involved here. First, the complainants may basically consider that the fees charged by a particular institution or tutorial school are too high. Second, as far as the complainants understand, the school fees charged by the institution or tutorial school concerned may exceed the amount approved by the ED.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Elsie TU.

MRS ELSIE TU: Madam President, to apply for registration, a school has to pass through the Buildings Department, Fire Services Department, Education Department, and I do not know what others. But it is a long long time and rents are very high. How long does it take to get through this registration process and how long is a school supposed to go on paying rent and paying teachers before they can get a permission to operate?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, to apply for provisional registration with the ED, what a school or institution has to do is to fill in a form and, at the same time, submit a Fire Safety Certificate and a notice issued by the Fire Services Department and the Buildings Department. Under normal circumstances, the ED will issue a Certificate of Provisional Registration of a School to the school concerned in 25 working days. Regarding some of the complaints that the time taken for the application and approval processes is too long, basically it is sometimes involved with the internal structure of the school or problems with the installations. The above problems may also be attributed to the school's failure to obtain supporting documents issued by the Fire Services Department and the Buildings Department.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, assuming that all tutorial schools are registered or are operating in an absolutely lawful manner, I still think the problem remains unsolved. These tutorial schools have come into being simply because there is a market for them. Just now a Member mentioned mainstream schools and conventional education. Perhaps, by comparing the approach adopted by the so-called mainstream schools or conventional schools with that of the tutorial schools, one may find that it is like "the pot calling the kettle black". All these schools are in fact using the same approach. So, when the so-called mainstream schools or conventional schools fail to meet the students' needs, the students will have a need to resort to the tutorial schools. If that is the case, can the Secretary inform this Council whether our education system has led to the emergence of these tutorial schools? Should we conduct a review of the whole education system?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, perhaps I can answer this question from two aspects. Firstly, any education system will need to conduct an overall and comprehensive review from time to time. The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government has also intended to conduct in future a comprehensive review of our education system, including such aspects as different stages of study, duration of study, curriculums and examinations. Secondly, as long as public examination exists in an education system, there will be a definite market for tutorial schools or the provision of educational services geared for examinations. In fact, public examinations have become a component of most, if not all, of the education systems in the world. If we take a look at many places in Asia, we will notice that the pressure of examination is also very heavy. There are tutorial schools of various kinds in places like Taiwan, Japan and South Korea.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, concerning the provisional registration, apart from meeting requirements laid down by the Fire Services Department and the Buildings Department, are the schools concerned required to provide details on the qualification of their teaching staff and contents of the curriculums in applying for the Certificate of Provisional Registration of a School? At the same time, has the Administration put in place a monitoring system to ensure that the courses and qualification of the teachers of these schools are suitable for the students?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, apart from meeting the fire safety requirements, the applicants have to provide the ED with information concerning the qualification of their teaching staff, the curriculums, fees and charges and so on. Having issued the Certificate of Provisional Registration of a School, the ED will also send inspectors to visit the institutions or tutorial schools concerned to see how teaching is being conducted when necessary.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHIM Pui-chung.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has successively mentioned institutions of continuing education and tutorial schools in his reply. Will the Government inform the public whether these so-called institutions and schools refer only to those providing tutorial services to students while courses on computing studies, music, piano and even palmistry are not covered?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, under the Education Ordinance, any institutions providing educational courses can be defined as schools and are required to register or enroll with the Education and Manpower Bureau or ED. Therefore, the tutorial centres or tutorial schools I mentioned earlier are only a general term. Basically they cover those non-mainstream schools. The courses they provide may include those on computing studies, commerce, languages, or different kinds of courses targeted at a certain examination or a certain grade.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching.

Different Visa-Free Arrangement for Britain

4. MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 16 July this year, the Immigration Department published a list of countries and regions with which visa-free arrangements have been made, thus enabling persons from about 170 countries and regions to visit Hong Kong on a visa-free basis and stay for periods varying from not more than seven days to one month, three months or six months. The list shows that only British citizens may stay in Hong Kong for six months. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the reasons for according Britain a visa-free arrangement which is different from those granted to other countries, bearing in mind that Hong Kong and Britain are no longer bound by any special constitutional relationship after the change of sovereignty?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, before 1 April 1997, British citizens are allowed to enter Hong Kong visa-free and to stay in Hong Kong for one year without any conditions on each entry. In late 1996, because of the impending change of relationship between the United Kingdom and Hong Kong, the Administration proposed a number of changes to the privileged immigration status of British citizens. For British citizens who intend to visit Hong Kong, the Administration proposed to continue to allow visa-free entry but to allow a maximum visa-free visit period of six months and to impose visitor's condition on them.

In formulating the visa policy towards nationals of a particular country, we take into consideration a number of factors such as the economic, social and cultural relationship between Hong Kong and that country, the number of tourists coming to Hong Kong from that country and vice versa, whether nationals of that country have a record of giving immigration control problems, and the treatment granted to Hong Kong travellers by that country (although it is not our policy to operate on a strictly reciprocal basis.) The proposal to allow British citizens a maximum visa-free visit period of six months was made after considering these factors. It should be noted that Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) passport holders also enjoy a maximum visa-free visit period of six months to the United Kingdom.

The proposal received considerable support during the public consultation period and in the then Legislative Council, and was implemented on 1 April 1997.

Madam President, I should just like to add that, in keeping with the objective of maintaining Hong Kong as an international financial, trading and touristic centre, we operate a liberal visa policy. Thus, while about 84 countries grant visa-free access to BN(O) passport holders, and about 40 countries grant visa-free access to SAR passport holders, we grant visa-free access to about 170 countries. We only impose a visa regime where it is justified by practical circumstances; for example, where it is necessary for the protection of Hong Kong's security, or for effective immigration control. It should also be borne in mind that imposing a stringent visa regime involves additional resources to process visa applications, particularly in respect of a country from which there is a substantial visitor traffic, and may adversely affect Hong Kong's tourist income. Our inclination is therefore to be more, rather than less liberal. Hong Kong's visa regime is reviewed from time to time in light of the prevailing circumstances, and we would keep in view the need to update our visa policy in the future.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching.

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, in his main reply, the Secretary mentioned that our visa policy is formulated in relation to the treatment granted to Hong Kong travellers by the countries concerned although some countries are not operating on a strictly reciprocal basis and we are adopting a liberal policy on the contrary. Can the Secretary tell us whether or not our power to bargain with foreign countries in respect of reciprocal visa-free arrangements and the length of stay will be weakened in a non-reciprocal situation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not think the policy we have adopted at the present stage, that is, a policy of "not to operate on a strictly reciprocal basis", will weaken our power in discussing with other countries how to facilitate Hong Kong people (including SAR passport holders) to travel abroad. We have been doing this in the past and I do not think we need to change this policy in the future. After the introduction of the SAR passports or in the first year after its format and relevant arrangements have been announced, we will work hard with the Central People's Government and about 40 countries have already granted visa-free treatment to SAR passport holders. I think this is a good start. Of course, we will not feel complacent and will continue to strive for securing visa-free arrangements from other countries, especially those which are frequently visited by Hong Kong people for sight-seeing or business purpose. Under this overall policy, I think the direction is correct. At the same time, we should bear in mind that we have a policy objective which is more important and is beneficial to Hong Kong, and that is to ensure our various policies are well co-ordinated so as to maintain Hong Kong's position as an international financial and trading centre.

PRESIDENT: Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Madam President, the Secretary correctly points out that a liberal visa-free policy is very important to developing tourism in Hong Kong. Tourism income, apart from the number of tourists coming in, is affected by the length of stay. Can the Secretary confirm, in considering whether to grant a certain country's nationals a more liberal limit of stay between seven days and one month or six months, that the number of tourists from that country is taken into account and has been looked upon favourably so that such tourists are encouraged to stay?

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam President, the number of tourists between Hong Kong and another country is one of the factors taken into consideration in our determination as to the visa-free period, or in the case of non-visa-free countries, of the visa arrangement for that country, but so are a number of other factors including particularly the need to ensure that Hong Kong's security is not compromised and the integrity of our immigration control is not compromised.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask the Secretary a question in respect of this kind of visa arrangements, particularly involving the so-called Taiwanese who are holding passports issued by the Republic of China and overseas Chinese (that is, ethnic Chinese) who are living abroad and holding passports issued by the Taiwanese Government. Is there any difference in the Government's treatment to their visa applications before and after 1 July 1997?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security, this question seems to have deviated from the scope of the main question. But if you wish, you are welcome to respond to it.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, the way we treat the supporting documents and the required travel documents of Taiwanese remain the same before and after 1997.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Yiu-tong.

Comprehensive Manpower Training Strategy

5. MR CHENG YIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President, it is learnt that the British Hong Kong Government had indicated that it would, before the change of sovereignty, complete the task of mapping out a comprehensive manpower training strategy for Hong Kong straddling the next century. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

1. whether the British Hong Kong Government had formulated the above manpower training strategy for Hong Kong before 1 July; if so, what the contents are; if not, why not; and

2. if the reply to the first part of (a) above is in the negative, whether the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government is making efforts to take up this task; if so, of the estimated timeframe for promulgating and implementing the relevant strategy; if not, why not?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is the Government's manpower policy to ensure that our workforce is equipped with the necessary skills and expertise to sustain and improve Hong Kong's economic competitiveness. This policy has two component parts. One is related to our mainstream education system which aims to provide our students with generic language, analytical and communicative skills in the school sector and with further personal and professional development in the tertiary sector. The other is to provide our workforce with the necessary vocational training and retraining in keeping with changes in our industrial and economic developments. My reply will focus on the latter part.

In 1996 we commissioned consultancy studies to carry out strategic and organizational reviews of the Vocational Training Council (VTC) and the Employees Retraining Scheme (ERS) which are the main publicly-funded bodies responsible for our manpower training and retraining. The objective of both reviews was to identify areas for improvement and to submit recommendations which would enable the VTC and the ERS to be more dynamic and responsive in meeting market demands and more cost-effective in delivering their services.

Review of the VTC

In the report, the consultants identified a number of key areas that needed to be addressed by the VTC. They also came up with a number of recommendations which sought to enhance the VTC's flexibility and market responsiveness to keep abreast with Hong Kong's changing economic needs. After consultation with employer and employee groups, the Manpower Panel of the former Legislative Council and the VTC itself, we were able to announce in June this year that there was general acceptance of the major recommendations in the report.

Following on from this review, the Executive Director of the VTC has prepared a five-year strategic plan to take the Council into the next century. This plan is being considered by the VTC.

Review of the ERS

The consultancy study on the ERS review came up with eight proposals. The main thrust was that the ERS should be more tightly focused on providing retraining for adult workers with low standards of formal educational attainment, in particular those who had been affected adversely by economic restructuring. Following a public consultation exercise, we also announced in June this year that there was general support for these proposals and that the Government endorsed most of them.

For ease of reference, the relevant documents setting out the Government's decision on the outcome of the reviews of the VTC and ERS are attached to the written version of this reply.

We will continue to monitor the progress of implementing the recommendations arising from the review.

Conclusion

Based on the outcome of the reviews, the respective roles of the VTC and the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) will be strengthened as a key element of the Government's manpower strategy which will lead the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) into the 21st century.

The Education and Manpower Bureau of the SAR Government will continue to oversee the work of the VTC, ERB and other training bodies. We will play a co-ordinating role to ensure adequate provision of training and retraining either generally or in specific industries. For example, we have recently set up a working group to examine, among other things, the manpower and associated training needs of the construction industry.

We will also continue to ensure that our education policy complements our manpower policy, particularly in enhancing the language and information technology skills of our future workforce.

Annex 1

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL BRIEF RECOMMENDATIONS ARISING FROM THE STRATEGIC AND ORGANIZATIONAL REVIEW OF THE VOCATIONAL TRAINING COUNCIL

INTRODUCTION

At the meeting of the Executive Council on 24 June 1997, the Council advised and the Governor ordered that the Vocational Training Council should proceed along the broad lines laid out in paragraphs 3 to 6 below in respect of the recommendations arising from the recent strategic and organizational review of the Council.

BACKGROUND AND ARGUMENT

A strategic and organizational review of the Vocational Training Council (VTC) was carried out between March and August 1996. We sought comments on the recommendations in the review report from over 160 employer groups and industrial organizations, and 231 individual members of the 28 VTC Training Boards and General Committees. At the end of the consultation period we received 114 submissions from various stakeholder groups, as well as the formal views of the VTC Council.

GENERALLY AGREED BROAD PRINCIPLES

There is general consensus on the major recommendations such as:

1. The VTC must be more responsive to the changing demands of the local economy, and that it must have a robust and flexible mechanism to achieve this mission.

2. Vocational training by the VTC should generally remain publicly-funded, and there should be no radical moves towards greater privatization of training activities or fundamental changes in the VTC's responsibilities.

3. The VTC should remain the primary agency for providing manpower training and skills upgrading, and should take over gradually from the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) responsibility for providing specific skills upgrading training for people in employment.

4. The VTC should prepare a three-year strategic plan, an annual business plan, as well as a yearly bench-marking exercise to test assumptions on labour market developments.

5. The system of Training Boards and General Committees should be reviewed in terms of their scope and coverage. The VTC is already looking into this.

6. The system of apprenticeship should be reviewed. (The VTC is also currently reviewing the apprenticeship scheme, in the light of the recommendations made by the consultants).

7. Any future expansion of sub-degree courses should lie mainly with the VTC's Technical Colleges. This is in line with the recommendation by the University Grants Committee in its 1996 Review of Higher Education that, beyond a modest expansion in the Hong Kong Institute of Education, any further increase in sub-degree places should lie mainly with the VTC and its future plans to meet Hong Kong's broad spectrum of training requirements for qualified technicians.

8. The relationship between the Education and Manpower Branch and the VTC should be clarified, probably through the development of a Memorandum of Understanding.

9. The two Technical Colleges should not be developed as autonomous units. However, more financial and administrative authority should be devolved to the operating units within the VTC, subject to adequate control being maintained.

10. There is no need for the introduction of an annual service agreement between the Health and Welfare Branch and the VTC, given the relatively small size of the latter's involvement. The existing resource allocation and performance review mechanism are adequate and should continue.

OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS

Details of those other recommendations where there is general consensus are at Annex.

IMPLEMENTATION

We shall invite the VTC to prepare a phased implementation plan for the agreed recommendations.

The reform process is on-going and evolutionary. We shall continue to work closely with the VTC Council and the management to discuss possible areas for change.

FINANCIAL AND STAFFING IMPLICATIONS

Some of the review recommendations to be taken forward may require additional funds while others may generate savings. As the review is management restructuring in nature, there will not be significant financial implications. Any financial requirements arising from implementation of the review recommendations will be met by the VTC through redeployment of existing resources as far as possible. The Secretary for Education and Manpower will bid for any additional funds, if required, in the normal manner.

ECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS

Successful implementation of the measure to reform the VTC should lead to a better utilization of resources for vocational training that gears in with the on-going development and structural change of the economy. This will benefit not only business firms, in terms of providing them with people of the appropriate mix of skills for the jobs, but also the workforce, in terms of equipping them for better employment opportunities and income.

PUBLIC CONSULTATION

In the course of the review, the consultants adopted a proactive approach and canvassed the views of all stakeholders. Views on the consultancy report recommendations were sought from a wide cross-section of employers and industrial organizations, sections within the VTC, the VTC Council, and the Legislative Council.

PUBLICITY

A media briefing will be held on 24 June 1997 to announce the way forward. A press release will be issued on the same day.

Enclosures

A M Reynalds
2810 3036

Education and Manpower Branch
Government Secretariat

Annex

Other Recommendations where there is a general consensus

1. To strengthen planning and co-ordination of activities between secondary schools and the VTC.
   
   
2. A mission statement for VTC
   
   
3. Resources

   We have no objection in principle to funding the VTC on a basis similar to that of the UGC-funded institutions. This is an area which we shall discuss in greater detail with the VTC.

4. To improve arrangements to select Council members, the length of appointments and so on.

   Agreed in principle by EMB and the VTC Council, but we see no merit in the proposal to recruit Council members through advertisement in the press.

5. To have staff representatives in the Council

   While the principle of greater transparency and staff involvement is agreed, we share the view of the VTC Council that a more prudent approach would be to achieve this goal step by step. The Council's initiative to allow two staff members to attend its Administration Committee meetings as observers is thus welcome.

6. To consider the future of the Seamen's Training Centre (STC)

   1. We have already held discussions with relevant departments, and there is general agreement for the STC to be kept and for its utilization to be boosted. The VTC has been asked to review the courses offered by the STC to ensure that these meet the changing needs of the shipping and maritime industry.

   2. We have also secured public funds to allow the construction of dormitory accommodation at the STC. This would facilitate trainees from overseas using the centre for residential courses.

   3. We are also examining whether the STC can provide safety training for container workers.

7. To review the Management Development Centre

   The potential exists for the Centre to play a strategic role in helping Hong Kong to become a regional management development centre. The Centre's role, operations as well as development opportunity should be further studied by the Council.

8. To improve the New Technology Training Scheme

   Improvements to the Scheme have now been implemented.

Annex 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL BRIEF REVIEW OF THE EMPLOYEES RETRAINING SCHEME

INTRODUCTION

At the meeting of the Executive Council on 24 June 1997, the Council advised and the Governor ordered that the Employees Retraining Scheme should be revamped as follows:

1. The Scheme should primarily focus on retraining the unemployed, aged 30 or above and possessing no more than lower secondary education.

2. The Scheme should be extended to cover new immigrants. Generally, they will be subject to the same admission criteria as applied to local residents. However, these criteria could be applied flexibly in individual cases.

3. The retraining programme should in future and as far as possible take the form of a specially-designed package of employment-oriented training courses, aimed at helping the retrainees to secure and hold down their jobs.

4. All the existing Skills Upgrading Courses under the ERS should be taken over by the Vocational Training Council in phases, whilst the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) should continue to provide General Skills Courses for the employed on condition that these courses meet the new three criteria: (i) quality assurance, (ii) cost-effectiveness, (iii) the availability of a suitable fee-charging system. The retraining programme for the elderly and the disabled should remain within the ERB's remit.

5. The On-the-Job training programme in its current form should be gradually phased out and the ERB should review the programme critically to ascertain if a new and improved programme should be implemented.

6. The existing weekly allowance for retrainees attending full-time courses should be maintained, provided that suitable safeguards against abuses are put in place, but no allowance should be paid to retrainees on one-week courses.

7. The ERB should critically evaluate the number and composition of the training bodies under the ERS with a view to improving the training bodies' effectiveness and the ERB's monitoring of their performance and quality.

8. An objective placement-tied and performance-based payment system for the training bodies should be introduced to encourage them to place trainees in jobs. The ERB should, on the basis of these two principles, work out a reasonable and acceptable formula with the training bodies and implement the training allowance system over a reasonable period of time, say, one year.

BACKGROUND AND ARGUMENT

2. Following the approval of the Executive Council on 3 December 1996, we issued a consultation paper on the "Review of the Employees Retraining Scheme" of a one-month public consultation. The consultation exercise was subsequently extended by a further month until 3 December 1997 at the request of the ERB and the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower.

Results of public consultation

3. A consultation paper was sent to all the existing 57 training bodies under the ERS, the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower, the Vocational Training Council (VTC) and more than 100 employer and employee groups as well as industrial organizations. The ERB and the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower also held several public hearings to solicit views from major interest groups and the public.

4. By the end of the consultation period, 68 submissions were received. Of these, 36 were from training bodies, 18 from employer groups and industrial associations, seven from trade unions, two from political parties, namely, the Democratic Party and the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong, and five from non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and individuals. The ERB also formally submitted its views.

5. Generally speaking, there has been extensive support of the main thrust of the proposals, that is to say, the ERS should be more tightly focused on providing retraining for adult workers with low formal educational attainment, especially those who are adversely affected by the economic restructuring.

6. Specifically, the following three recommendations have received wide support:

1. The ERS should be extended to cover new immigrants.

2. The retraining programme should in future and as far as possible take the form of a specially designed package of job-oriented intensive training courses, supplemented by follow-up training and counselling service.

3. The ERB should critically evaluate the number and composition of the training bodies with a view to improving the latter's effectiveness and the ERB's monitoring of their performance and quality.

7. Views are, however, divided on the recommendations on the target trainees of the ERS, transfer of skills upgrading courses for the employed to the VTC, the phasing out of the On-the-Job training programme in its current form, the reduced retraining allowance and the placement-tied payment system for training bodies.

The way forward

8. We see no problem in adopting the three recommendations set out in paragraph 6 above as they enjoy wide support. In fact, we have already implemented the recommendation to extend the ERS to cover new immigrants with effect from 31 January 1997. As for those recommendations on which there are divergent views, our proposals on the way forward are set out below:

TRANSFER OF COURSES TO THE VTC

9. One of the recommendations in the consultation paper is that all the skills upgrading courses for the employed now offered under the ERS should be taken over by the VTC. These skills upgrading courses refer to both the "General Skills Courses" (that is, basic computer, elementary English and Putonghua) and "Skills Upgrading Courses" (for example, computer-aided drawing training for serving draughtsmen and Master's Certificate for seamen) currently provided by the ERB for the employed. Whilst most of the respondents agree that the VTC should play a wider role in providing training for workers in employment, they do not support the wholesale transfer of all the Skills Upgrading Courses and General Skills Courses from the ERB to the VTC for two reasons. First, as the VTC has all along been providing training for people with Secondary 3 or above education, it has had little experience in providing training for people with a lower educational standard who require not only a different curriculum, but also a different mode of training. Second, as the VTC is a large organization with relatively great overheads, it would not be cost-effective for the VTC to run such courses.

10. In the course of gauging public feedback on this recommendation, the Education and Manpower Branch (EMB) set up in January 1997 a Joint Working Group chaired by the Deputy Secretary (Education and Manpower) and comprising the Vice-Chairmen and some members, as well as the Executive Directors and senior management of both the ERB and VTC, to thrash out the implications of the proposed transfer. After careful deliberations, on-site inspections of a range of training courses under the ERS and taking into account public feedback, the Working Group came up with the following conclusion:

1. All the existing Skills Upgrading Courses (which account for about 2% of all the part-time courses being offered by the ERB for the employed) should be transferred to the VTC in phases. These are courses for "skills upgrading" in the true sense of the word. The VTC is well placed and equipped to take them over. It is proposed to allow a year for a smooth transition.

2. The General Skills Courses currently provided by the ERB, (which account for some 80% of the part-time retraining courses) should continue to be offered under the ERS on condition that they meet three new criteria:

   - assurance of quality;

   - cost-effectiveness; and

   - availability of a suitable fee-charging system.

   Strictly speaking, these basic language and basic computer courses do not fall under the category of "skills upgrading". These are courses that the VTC has little experience and expertise, and, indeed, is ill-equipped, to take over.

3. The VTC should collaborate with the ERB and the training bodies on the quality assurance and accreditation of the language and computer courses under the ERS, especially on matters regarding the award of proper qualifications and the bridge-over arrangements between ERB's General Skills Courses and VTC's programme. This is a key recommendation arising from the deliberations of the Joint Working Group and it provides an important interface and "the missing link" between ERB and VTC in the long term.

11. The Government endorses these conclusions. Factors considered by the Joint Working Group are set out at Annex A.

12. In line with our proposal in paragraph 10(b) above, we have been exploring with ERB the feasibility of establishing a fee-charging system for its General Skills Courses. We see the need for levying a fee because we believe that those in employment should, as a general principle, contribute partly, if not fully, towards their self-upgrading. What is more, a fee-charging system would screen out the frivolous and thus help reduce the drop-out rate.

13. Having consulted the ERB, we propose to impose a fee on all trainees attending the part-time courses at about 20% of the total training cost of the relevant courses. Arrangements will, however, be made for those retrainees who are unemployed or low-income earners (defined as those whose monthly salary is no more than two-thirds of the overall median monthly income of our total working population currently at $6,333) to claim refunds after they have attained an 80% attendance rate. Those who have received such training free-of-charge will not be allowed to enrol in another course free of charge within a year. The ERB has, in fact, already introduced a fee-charging arrangement precisely on this basis with effect from 1 June 1997.

14. To follow up on the proposal at paragraph 10(c) above, the Joint Working Group will continue to ensure the smooth transfer of Skills Upgrading Courses to the VTC, and to oversee the development of a more effective quality assurance system (such as standardization of course curriculum, accreditation and certification arrangements and so on) for the ERB's courses, making good use of VTC's expertise in this area, as well as exploring the feasibility of bridging-over of trainees from ERB to VTC in the longer term.

15. The Joint Working Group has also looked into the feasibility of transferring ERB's existing programmes for the elderly and people with a disability to VTC, and has concluded that they should remain within ERB's remit.

TARGET TRAINEES OF THE ERB

16. Whilst there has been a broad consensus that the ERB should focus on retraining for the unemployed, many respondents, especially the training bodies and trade unions, have suggested that it should also provide training for employed workers in declining industries who stand a high chance of being displaced by economic restructuring.

17. Our view is that the ERB should still primarily focus on providing retraining for the unemployed with no more than lower secondary education and who are aged 30 or above. This group represents the "hard core" of the unemployed. However, as a result of the proposal to retain all the General Skills Courses under the ERS (paragraph 10 refers), we will, in effect, also be providing retraining for the employed who need basic skills training to sustain them in employment.

ON-THE-JOB TRAINING SCHEME

18. The original proposal is that the existing On-the-Job Training Scheme (OJT) in its current format should be gradually phased out and that the on-the-job element should be included in the retraining course for the unemployed but with no financial reimbursement to employers. Whilst some training bodies support this proposal, the employer groups have argued that the OJT should be retained as it has benefited a large number of employees who are older and less educated. The ERB has suggested that the whole scheme be reviewed before deciding on the future direction.

19. We remain of the view that the OJT in its present format should be scrapped because the ERB has had little control over the quality and effectiveness of the training provided to the retrainees. However, we agree that the OJT, as a concept, should be retained, reviewed and improved since this type of training provides a good incentive for employers to hire trainees on-the-job, hence improving their employment opportunities. We propose that the ERB should, in collaboration with the training bodies and employer groups, explore the feasibility of including "on-the-job attachment" as part of the retraining programmes for the retrainees, and review the OJT critically with a view to devising a new and improved system which meets its objectives. This review is now in progress.

RETRAINING ALLOWANCE

20. This is the most contentious proposal arising from the consultation paper. Under the original proposal, the existing retraining allowance ($1,000 per week for one-week courses, $933 per week for courses lasting two to three weeks and $4,000 per month for courses longer than four weeks) for those who are unemployed and attending full-time courses should be replaced by a new allowance of $500 per week for all unemployed full-time trainees. The proposed new allowance aims at meeting the travelling and meal expenses incurred by a retrainee whilst undergoing retraining. This proposal is supported by some employers' groups who see the need to prevent possible abuse and agree that ERB's resources should be better utilized in improving the quality of training. However, the Legislative Council Manpower Panel, trade unions and most training bodies have vociferously opposed it, arguing strongly that the need to prevent abuse can be addressed separately. They stress that this particular proposal has seriously undermined the merit of the whole package of measures to revamp the ERS. Within the ERB, views are sharply divided between the employers' and employees' representatives.

21. Having weighed carefully the views and sentiments of different groups, we propose that the following revised package be adopted:

1. the existing rate of retraining allowance should be maintained;

2. but additional safeguards should be put in place to prevent possible abuse by retrainees; and

3. no retraining allowance should be paid to retrainees attending one-week full-time courses.

22. This revised package in fact ties in with the proposal at paragraph 6(b) above that the retraining programme should in future and as far as possible take the form of a specially designed package of job-oriented intensive training courses, (supplemented by follow-up training and counselling service), which will normally last more than one week. Moreover, given that the total amount of retraining allowance accounts for some 13% to 14% of ERB's total retraining expenditure, keeping the existing rate will not have any material impact on its overall financial position. We intend that the proposal should take effect on 1 October 1997 to allow time for the ERB to make the necessary administrative arrangements and adjustments.

PLACEMENT-TIED PAYMENT SYSTEM

23. A key proposal under review is that a placement-tied and performance-based payment system for the training bodies should be introduced. The ERB agrees with the underlying principle and spirit of this proposal. However, most training bodies and trade unions maintain that the system is unfair because placement result is usually affected by factors beyond the control of training bodies. It has been argued that, if the proposed system were to be introduced, some training bodies would likely to set stringent admission criteria to screen out those who stand a lower chance of finding a job after retraining. This "pick-and-choose" effect would render the ERS into an "elitist" system.

24. This proposal seeks to set up an objective system to gauge the performance of the training bodies. Those capable of over-achieving the target will receive more and those with poor performance will receive less and can be excluded from the ERS, if they continue to perform badly. It also seeks to ensure that training courses are of a type which will eventually help retrainees get jobs. We therefore remain of the view that the proposal is worth pursuing. We want the ERB to work out a reasonable and acceptable formula with the training bodies and implement the system over a reasonable period of transition of say, one year.

25. A summary of our latest revised proposals as compared with those in our public consultation paper is at Annex B.

ECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS

26. Putting the focus of the ERS primarily on retraining unemployed local residents and new immigrants with no more than lower secondary education will add to the total trained manpower stock. In the long term, this will help to reduce and prevent unemployment, improve the quality of the workforce, and reduce the burden these particular groups may otherwise impose on our social security system.

FINANCIAL AND STAFFING IMPLICATIONS

27. With the approval of the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council, we made a further capital injection of $500 million into the ERB on 14 February 1997. The Board now has an accumulated balance of about $764 million to take forward the proposed revamped retraining scheme and to sustain its existing programme over the next two to three years. The ERB will spend about $276 million to provide some 78 000 training places in the current financial year. We will closely monitor the progress of implementing the agreed recommendations and revise the budget in light of our actual operational experience.

28. There will be no staffing implications for the Government.

PUBLIC CONSULTATION

29. Training bodies and various interest groups have been given a full hearing during and after the consultation exercise. The Secretary for Education and Manpower met representatives of the major training bodies for a useful exchange of views. EMB officials had also briefed the ERB and the Legislative Council Manpower Panel on various occasions. Both the ERB and VTC have been involved, through the Joint Working Group convened by EMB, in examining the proposed transfer of courses. In fact, a collaborative working relationship has been forged between the ERB and VTC and this should augur well for the future.

PUBLICITY

30. A press conference will be held on 24 June 1997 to announce the outcome of the review, together with that on the review of the VTC. A press release will be issued on the same day and followed by separate briefing for the ERB.

ENQUIRIES

31. For enquiries, please contact Ms Esther LEUNG, Principal Assistant Secretary (Education and Manpower) at 2810 3032.

Annex A

Factors considered by the Joint Working Group in reaching the conclusion on transfer of courses from ERB to VTC

1. All the "General Skills Courses" ─ comprising basic English, computer and Putonghua ─ are set at an elementary level and are designed for those with a low or minimal level of formal education (most of them speak little or no English and are computer illiterate). As opposed to the general skills training approach adopted by the VTC, most of the contents of such training courses are largely geared to the precise practical needs of specific jobs. Moreover, a considerable amount of personalized attention and counselling for the trainees has been factored into the course contents and the training process under the ERB. VTC has little experience and expertise in running courses at such levels and with such a training mode.

2. The training bodies under the ERS are generally cost effective in running these courses owing to their inherent strengths and advantages. These include:

   - their comprehensive and accessible territory-wide network of training centres;

   - their well-established links with the local communities which enable them to arrange courses in response to market needs in a flexible and efficient manner;

   - their long accumulated experience and expertise in workers' education and training;

   - their flexibility in offering courses with readily available premises, staff and facilities; and

   - their ability to attract a group of dedicated staff to run the courses as a type of community service who are willing to be paid at lower remuneration rate, hence enabling such courses to be run at a highly competitive and, indeed, lower than market cost.

3. VTC's present resources have already been tied up with its existing programme of activities. Substantial capital investments in space, equipment and staff resources will be required if these courses are to be taken over by the VTC.

Annex B

A comparison of the original proposals in the Consultation Paper and the revised proposals

Original Proposals	Revised Proposals
(1)The ERS should be more tightly focused and should primarily concentrate on providing retraining for all unemployed persons with no more than lower secondary education and aged 30 or above. The ERB could apply the criteria on age and educational attainment flexibly in individual cases.	Whilst the ERS should primarily focus on providing retraining for the unemployed with no more than lower secondary education and aged 30 or above, with flexibility on age and educational attainment in individual cases, the ERB should also provide retraining for the employed who need to receive basic skills training so as to sustain their employment.
(2)To extend the ERS to cover new immigrants who will be subject to the same admission criteria as applied to local residents.	Same.
(3)The retraining programme should in future take the form of a specially-designed package of job-oriented intensive training courses, aimed at helping the retrainees to secure and hold down their jobs.	Same.
(4)All the skills upgrading training for the employed persons now offered under the ERS should be taken over by the VTC.	(a) All the existing Skills Upgrading Courses (which account for 2% of all the part-time retraining courses) will be transferred to the VTC in phases. (b) The ERB should continue to provide the General Skills Courses (which account for 80% of the part-time retraining courses) on condition that they meet three new criteria: (i) quality assurance; (ii) cost-effectiveness; and (iii) availability of a suitable fee-charging system. (c) The VTC should collaborate with the ERB and the training bodies on the quality assurance and accreditation of their General Skills Courses, as well as on possible bridge-over arrangements between the courses offered by both training authorities.
(5)The existing On-the-Job Training Programme should be gradually phased out.	The On-the-Job Training Programme in its present form should be gradually phased out but the concept of on-the-job training should be retained as part of the overall retraining programme for the unemployed. On this basis, the ERB should work in collaboration with the training bodies and employer groups to review the Programme, with a view to devising a new and improved programme.
(6)The existing retraining allowance should be replaced by a new allowance aimed at meeting the travelling and meal expenses incurred by a retrainee whilst undergoing training.	The existing rate of retraining allowance should be maintained for all full-time courses, except for those attending one-week courses. Additional safeguards should be put in place to prevent abuse by retrainees.
(7)The ERB should critically evaluate the number and composition of the training bodies with a view to improving their effectiveness and monitoring their performance and quality.	Same.
(8)A placement-tied and performance-based payment system for the training bodies will be introduced.	An objective system for assessing the performance of the training bodies and to ensure that the training will be placement-focused should be set up. Based on these twin principles, the ERB should work out a reasonable and acceptable formula with the training bodies and implement the system over a reasonable period of transition of say, one year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Yiu-tong.

CHENG YIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the second paragraph of the Government's reply to my question, it has been pointed out that the VTC and the ERB are the main publicly-funded bodies responsible for manpower training and retraining. Will the Government inform us whether regular funding arrangements will be made for these organizations in order to carry out the manpower training strategy straddling the century and to ensure that this manpower training strategy will not suffer from a reduction in subsidy when government revenue decreases?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, a budget will be submitted to the Government annually by the VTC and we will make funding arrangements to the VTC through the Budget. Of course, one of the outcomes of our review is to urge the VTC to formulate a longer-term plan such as a three- or five-year plan. I have also mentioned in my main reply that the Executive Director of the VTC is now preparing a five-year strategic plan. Besides, the ERB should have sufficient financial resources as the Government has injected capital into the Board over the past two years. Despite that, we will fully consider the resources the two Boards require for fulfilling their functions. In preparing our annual budget, we will also give full consideration to it to ensure that the two Boards have sufficient resources to meet the future needs of manpower training.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, in my opinion, the reply given by the Secretary to Mr CHENG Yiu-tong just now is exactly the same as the reply given to the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower of the former Government. If we compare the two documents, we will find that their contents are exactly the same. Of course, I am not saying that the Government has not taken any action. I am just of the view that the completion of a manpower training strategy straddling the next century as proposed by the Government has in fact been mentioned by the former Government. At that time, we asked the Government how the strategy would straddle the next century.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han, please come to your question.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I will now come to my question. How is the strategy going to straddle the next century? The officials are simply repeating what the former Government said. Just now, Mr CHENG Yiu-tong asked about the regular recurrent funding provided for the ERB with reference to the phrase "straddling the next century". Nevertheless, the present situation is that a few hundreds of millions of dollars will only be allocated when needed and there is no recurrent allocation. As such, I cannot see the possibility of "straddling the next century". As the Secretary said it was going to straddle the next century, there should be a long-term and fixed plan. As the saying goes, "Rome was not built in a day". The situation should not be like this. Madam President, can the Government tell us specifically whether there are any substantive measures (including a timetable) indicating the point that the strategy is straddling the next century? And what stage we have reached at this moment? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I have to clarify that the question concerned is whether we have formulated a manpower training policy before 1 July 1997. So my reply is exactly in response to that question.

Secondly, I would like to explain that the most important component in the manpower training strategy of the Hong Kong Government is to give play to the individual functions of the VTC and ERB. This is also the main reason for us to accept the review. Regarding the VTC, I have pointed out in my main reply that the Executive Director is now preparing a five-year strategic plan and the VTC is also studying the plan at the moment. Starting from now, the five-year plan will certainly straddle the next century. Upon the completion of this five-year strategic plan by the VTC, the SAR Government will give detailed consideration to it. We have completed a review of the ERS and the proposals contained therein have also been implemented, including the inclusion of new immigrants into the remit of the Scheme. We will be very pleased to listen to the views of the ERB on the future retraining needs to see if it needs a longer-term development plan and whether regular government subsidy in terms of resources to the Board is needed in order to tie in with its long-term development plan. With regard to their concrete proposal, we will certainly consider it.

As I said earlier, the entire manpower training scheme is implemented through giving play to the functions of the independent and autonomous retraining bodies. On the other hand, through the assumption of an co-ordinating role by the Education and Manpower Bureau, the scheme will ensure adequate provision of training and retraining either generally or in specific industries. Should we receive any concrete proposals from the VTC or ERB in the coming years, we will be pleased to discuss the issue again with Miss CHAN or other Members on relevant occasions such as the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Kai-ming.

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. In the ninth paragraph of his reply, the Secretary said that the Bureau's role is to ensure adequate provision of training and retraining either generally or in specific industries. He cited an example that a working group has been set up recently to examine, among other things, the training of manpower of the construction industry. Can the Secretary tell us when the conclusion relating to manpower training needs will be made and, apart from the construction industry, whether the manpower resources of other industries have also been examined?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, in the review for the VTC, one of the recommendations is to ask the VTC to conduct a regular survey on manpower training needs of all trades and industries. In this aspect, the VTC will follow up the recommendation. I quoted in my main reply an example cited by Mr LEE because many people are concerned that the future manpower demand of the construction industry will be very great as the SAR Government has undertaken to build a specific number of housing units in the coming years. This has precisely illustrated that the Education and Manpower Bureau will assume a co-ordinating role when necessary. For instance, it will conduct a more comprehensive study on manpower needs and manpower training in collaboration with the construction industry, contractors, employers, trade unions and training bodies. This working group has started to work and I hope we will make concrete progress in the next few months so that I can report to Honourable Members on suitable occasions.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Yiu-tong.

MR CHENG YIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the fourth paragraph of his reply, the Secretary said that the VTC is now preparing a five-year strategic plan. Can the Secretary tell us whether this strategic plan will be publicized; if not, why not; and if so, when it will be announced?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this plan will definitely be publicized. Approval from the VTC must first be sought before the Executive Director's views are announced. After the VTC has endorsed the Executive Director's views, we do not rule out the possibility of a consultation exercise by the VTC because this plan will be extremely important to the development of the VTC in the next five years. When the plan is finally submitted to the Government, it will certainly be made public since we have all along been emphasizing accountability and a high degree of transparency.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, from the good side, I still place hope on the promises of the Government. In fact, some issues have been delayed since the previous year. As this scheme which straddles the next century will cross over the purviews of the VTC and the ERB, we have already expressed our views to the former Government. For instance, we have raised questions about manpower resources and how they can tie in with our future economic development.

Madam President, I will now come to my question. In spite of the Government's intention to straddle the next century, it is reluctant to get rid of the two bodies. We have proposed to the former Government to set up an vocational board. Recently I found that apart from the labour sector, colleagues from the commercial and industrial sectors also agreed to our viewpoints. Many people from outside the Council asked us what had gone wrong with our human resources. Does the Government have a standard figure, a mechanism or archived information available for our reference? Now we are only incessantly arguing about the problem of some people losing their jobs. What I can do is to place hope.

Madam President, I will come to my question now. Should we get rid of these two bodies and try to think about how to implement this strategy that straddles the next century? Or should we keep on sticking to the old ways?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as one century follows another, I think we should map out the manpower strategy for the next century on the basis of the manpower situation of this century. I will be very pleased to have further discussions with Miss CHAN or other Honourable Members at the meetings of the Legislative Council Panel on Manpower regarding our views on the strategy of manpower training and the components we consider essential for the manpower strategy, including the functions of the Education and Manpower Bureau and other training bodies, as well as the kind of expertise of which the future economy will have a greater need.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask a question directly. In the long term, will the Government combine the VTC and the ERB to form a so-called "vocational board"?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we do not have such a plan at the present moment because the VTC and ERB have already defined their individual roles very clearly through the recent review. In the course of reviewing one of the recommendations, the Government and the two bodies agreed that some of the skills upgrading courses offered under the ERB at the moment should be taken over by the VTC. But as I have said earlier, if Honourable Members have any comments in this area, we will be very pleased to have further discussions with them at the meetings of the Panel on Manpower.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Kai-ming.

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I learned from the Secretary's reply that the VTC had studied its five-year plan for several months. Meanwhile the working group on the construction industry has also indicated that it will take several months to conduct a study. As a result, the community still fails to see any concrete plans, steps and stages from the Government in respect of the future manpower resources. Can the Secretary tell us in concrete terms when the VTC's five-year plan will be implemented? And when will the study of the working group be submitted to the Panel on Manpower?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, in my earlier reply, I have already said that we hope the working group on the construction industry can arrive at a conclusion in the next few months. Why did we set up a working group? It is because in projecting the needs for manpower, different organizations or bodies have come to different conclusions from different perspectives. So I think the Government should play the role of an intermediary or a co-ordinator to grasp the overall situation in order to arrive at a projection acceptable to all parties concerned.

Regarding the VTC, I have pointed out in my main reply that the VTC's Executive Director is now preparing a five-year strategic plan for development. This strategic plan is not targeted at the overall demand for manpower for the next five years. Rather, it is targeted at how to bring the organization, curriculums and framework of the VTC into full play in the next five years. Of course, it will also examine whether or not internal improvement is required for projecting the demand for manpower. I would like to clarify once again that the VTC has in fact made projections on the demand for manpower in respect of various trades and industries through its own framework and determined the number of training places on the basis of the projections every year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last supplementary. Mr LEE Kai-ming.

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary should have a timetable and the study itself should not straddle the next century. But he has not answered my question. (Laughter)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): If what the Honourable Member referred to is the working group on the construction industry, I believe I have answered the question. A conclusion will be drawn in the next few months. If the question was about when the VTC's five-year strategic plan could be announced, I would think that we cannot at the present stage make any concrete undertaking as to when the plan can be announced since the VTC is still studying the plan at the moment. But as Mr LEE said, I believe they will not wait until the next century to decide on the five-year strategic plan.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him.

Implementation of Basic Law

6. MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the major problems encountered by various departments in the implementation of the Basic Law; as well as the nature of such problems;

2. as it is reported that the Department of Justice lacks the relevant data and manpower in handling problems encountered by various departments in the implementation of the Basic Law, whether the Government has any plans to rectify the situation; if so, of the details of such plans; if not, why not; and

3. given the problems encountered by government departments in the implementation of the Basic Law; whether the Government will strengthen the training of civil servants in this regard?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, as members are aware, the implementation of any new legislation gives rise to questions of interpretation and case precedents may not be available immediately for guidance. The same is true of the Basic Law, which is not just a piece of local legislation, but is a detailed written constitutional document for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, regulating almost all aspects of life here.

My answer to the first part of this question reflects this fact. The main areas on which government bureaux and departments have sought advice from my department relate mainly to the interpretation of Basic Law provisions and their application to particular practical situations. They have arisen in three main areas:

- first, in the review of existing policies and legislation to ensure they are consistent with the Basic Law and, if not, to adapt them accordingly;

- secondly, in the formulation of new policies and legislation which involve the Basic Law provisions; and

- thirdly, in the context of litigation, or threatened litigation, based on the Basic Law.

With regard to the second part of the question, there is no shortage of data or manpower in the Department of Justice to handle these problems. Advice on the Basic Law is mainly, but not exclusively, given by the Basic Law Unit. Since its establishment on 1 April 1997, the strength of the Unit has been doubled from two to four counsels. If the workload of the Unit is at any time particularly heavy, other counsels will be assigned to assist it, in order to ensure that legal opinions reach departments promptly. In addition, the Department has a Basic Law Litigation Task Force, which includes representatives from various divisions. This Task Force can be called upon to make a rapid response in respect of any litigation relating to the Basic Law.

The Department of Justice has a good collection of legal materials in respect of the Basic Law. What it lacks, and what is currently unavailable, are case precedents dealing with the many questions of interpretation that arise. We will, of course, be building up our collection of materials as and when case precedents and other relevant texts become available.

With regard to the third part of the question, the arrangements for training civil servants are considered adequate. The Civil Service Training and Development Institute has been organizing regular seminars on the Basic Law for civil servants since 1995, in order to raise their awareness and understanding in this respect. Twenty of these seminars were held in 1996, and they are now being arranged almost every month. The Department of Justice has contributed to these seminars, by supplying both materials and expert speakers. A self-learning booklet and computer disk have also been prepared for civil servants, and over 130 000 of these have been distributed. These materials are now being updated. Specific training courses for particular bureaux and departments are arranged as and when needed. The Basic Law is also covered in the curriculum of China studies courses organized by the Civil Service Training and Development Institute, such as the course commissioned to the Tsinghua University of Beijing. Some departments also include sessions on the Basic Law in their induction or other in-house training programmes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, in answering the second part of my question, the Secretary mentioned that a Basic Law Litigation Task Force had been set up. Has any department asked for support from the Task Force since it started to operate? If so, could the Secretary supply us the names of the departments which have asked for support, the number of cases and the time required in average for responding to respective litigations?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Basic Law Litigation Task Force I just mentioned is mainly responsible for dealing with litigation. The Task Force consists of 11 counsels, including three from the Civil Division, three from the Legal Policy Division, two from the Prosecutions Division, two from the Law Drafting Division and one from the International Law Division. I am sure a litigation case they have dealt with that everybody knows is the legality of the Provisional Legislative Council and a judgement on this issue has been made by the Court of Appeal in late July. In addition, four cases of litigation relating to the Immigration Ordinance have been listed for trial by the courts and four test cases are now being dealt with. Apart from these, there is no other issue involving the Basic Law Litigation Task Force. Since April this year, we have dealt with 92 enquiries from various departments seeking our opinions on the Basic Law. Normally, we can make responses within 14 days, except for five enquiries.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TSANG Yok-sing.

MR TSANG YOK-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, is it necessary for the counsel working in the Basic Law Unit of the Department of Justice to receive special training so as to ensure that they are fully capable of formally interpretating the Basic Law? Just now, the Secretary said that if the workload of the Unit is heavy, other counsels will be assigned to assist it. Are these counsels also able to discharge their duties?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, counsels working in the Department of Justice have actively participated in seminars relating to the Basic Law, including those held in Hong Kong and overseas. They have also received Basic Law training provided by the Civil Service Training and Development Institute. Since 1996, 12 counsels from the Department of Justice have attended one-week courses on public law litigation and the courses have also had the participation of judges and academics specialized in constitution. In February this year, the Prosecutions Division organized two training seminars to enable its staff to better understand the impact of the Basic Law on local laws and they have all actively taken part in these seminars. Therefore, the Basic Law Unit has provided adequate training for its staff to enable them to have sufficient knowledge of the Basic Law to deal with enquiries from various departments and problems relating to litigation.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask two questions. The first question is about ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You should ask the first question and I would invite you to ask the second one later.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): I would like to ask a question. Regarding the Basic Law training provided for civil servants, will different emphases be placed for different departments? As the Basic Law has altogether 160 articles, the Home Affairs Department may place emphasis on the provisions concerning rights and duties while the Education Department may focus on the contents of Chapter VI. So I do not know whether there are different emphases. Apart from that, are all civil servants required to attend these training courses; and civil servants of which ranks are required to attend these courses?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, different departments will make different enquiries about the Basic Law. Basically there are 160 articles in the Basic Law and the counsels of the Department of Justice are all able to deal with them. If a specialized question arises, we can refer the question to experts in the Mainland with whom we have maintained close contact.

Regarding training for civil servants, since 1992, 814 public officers have attended seminars on the Basic Law. Since 1995, 3 519 civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 34 to 49 have taken part in seminars organized by the Department of Justice. Since 1993, 393 civil servants have taken part in courses offered by the Tsinghua University. Since 1994, 1 326 civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 33 to 43 have attended China studies courses offered by the City University. Recently, these courses have been extended to cover civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 28 to 33. 148 civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 28 to 44 have attended courses on China studies at the Baptist University. Since 1996, 643 civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 16 to 33 and 364 civil servants on Master Pay Scale point 28 to 44 have taken part in courses relating to the Basic Law. During the period from 1989 to 1994, 78 civil servants at Directorate Grade attended Sino-Hong Kong law seminars. Some Administrative Officers also participated in these seminars. The situation is more or less like this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary mentioned in her reply that there is a self-learning booklet on the Basic Law. I am fortunate enough to have read the English version. But I wonder whether a Chinese version is also available? As 130 000 copies have been distributed, could Members of this Council have a copy as well?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): This is the English version and that is the Chinese version. These self-learning booklets are distributed alongside with computer disks. I think there is sufficient stock in my department which can be distributed to Honourable Members if they are interested in making reference to it.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Thank you.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Container Back-up Areas

7. MR JAMES TIEN (in Chinese): According to operators in the container transport industry, most of the sites in San Tin reserved by the Government for container back-up use are still being used as fish ponds. As these sites are not easily accessible and have no drainage facilities, they are not suitable for use as container back-up areas. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the measures in place to resolve the above problems, and whether it is possible to identify other suitable sites for the operators of the existing container yards and car parks for container trucks in San Tin to carry on their business;

2. of the proportion of the containers stored in the container yards and the car parks for container trucks in San Tin to the total number of containers in Hong Kong; and

3. whether it has any plan to provide, in the vicinity of Lok Ma Chau border control point, a car park for large container trucks and a container yard for temporary storage of containers?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. About 68 hectares of land in San Tin (the San Tin site) to the immediate southwest of the Lok Ma Chau Control Point is zoned "Other Specified Uses (Container Back-up Uses)". The planning intention of this zoning is to accommodate the anticipated increase in cross-boundary freight transport. Implementation of the San Tin site for container back-up uses has been investigated in the "Pilot Study on Port Back-up Development at San Tin". A recommended outline development plan and layout plans with proposed new road networks have been prepared to guide development. The Study has also identified the need for further detailed studies including traffic impact assessment, drainage impact assessment, environmental impact assessment and ecological impact assessment and engineering feasibility study. However, as the San Tin site is covered by fish ponds, actions on the further studies were withheld pending the findings of the Study on the Ecological Value of Fish Ponds in Deep Bay Area (Fish Ponds Study). Upon completion of the Fish Ponds Study later this year, the Administration will decide on the way forward including the appropriate use and development of the San Tin site.

   On the other hand, a total of 374 hectares of land has been earmarked for container back-up and open storage uses on the rural outline zoning plans for various parts of the New Territories. Planning permission may also be sought from the Town Planning Board to develop the land within the "Other Specified Uses (Service Stations)" and "Undetermined" zones along both sides of San Sham Road for container back-up uses.

2. We do not have the information because both the number of containers stored in the container yards and the car parks for container trucks in San Tin and the number of containers in Hong Kong vary from day to day.

3. The area surrounding Lok Ma Chau Control Point falls within the study area of the Planning and Development Study on Northwest New Territories to be commissioned by the Planning Department later this year. The study would examine the development potential of the area, including the feasibility of providing additional sites for container back-up purposes.

Illegal Farming on Kwun Tong Slopes

8. MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Chinese): Residents in Kwun Tong have complained that some slopes in the district have been illegally used for growing vegetables, resulting in a loosening of the earth and thus endangering the safety of the slopes concerned. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

1. the authorities concerned are aware of the above situation; if so, whether any actions have been taken to clear the illegal cultivation in the slopes concerned;

2. similar incidents have occurred, or similar complaints received, in other districts;

3. prosecutions have been instituted against the offenders and if so, what the penalties are; and

4. the Government will conduct a territory-wide survey on such illegal use of slopes, in particular the slopes which are in the vicinity of residential buildings and housing estates, so as to safeguard public safety?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. We are aware that some slopes on government land in Kwun Tong have been used illegally for cultivation. District Lands Office/Kowloon East has started clearing the illegal cultivation on these slopes;

2. we have received a number of similar complaints in other districts;

3. no prosecution has been instituted so far as the ordinance concerned requires the Government to first post notices on the land requiring cessation of the illegal occupation of the land in question and the culprits usually disappear once the notices are posted. We shall continue to keep the situation under observation. The ordinance provides a fine of $10,000 and imprisonment for six months if a culprit is successfully convicted; and

4. in view of work priorities, the Government does not intend to carry out such a survey at the moment. We will continue to take clearance action on illegal cultivation upon detection during patrols made by district lands staff or receipt of complaints.

Inferior Public Housing Maintenance Works

9. MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Chinese): It is learnt that some persons were arrested by the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) recently for involvement in certain public housing maintenance works which were suspected to be carried out with inferior materials and workmanship. In this regard, does the Government know whether the authority concerned will take any actions or remedial measures to ensure that those maintenance works suspected to be carried out with inferior materials and workmanship will not affect public safety; if so, what the details are?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Chinese): Madam President, the ICAC is currently investigating corruption allegations in connection with the maintenance works of 12 public housing estates in Wong Tai Sin and Tuen Mun. Since only simple and routine building maintenance and decoration works are involved, public safety will not be affected.

As the case is still being investigated by the ICAC, it will not be appropriate to provide details at this stage. Once the ICAC investigation is concluded, the Housing Department will conduct a thorough examination of the maintenance works involved and take remedial measures if necessary.

Contempt of Court Cases

10. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the total number of cases in which the defendant was convicted of contempt of court, in the past three years:

2. of the maximum penalty imposed in the above cases; and

3. given that the judge can be responsible for both prosecution and adjudication in the trial of cases of this nature, whether the authority concerned will review such a situation?

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): Madam President, my reply to parts (a) to (b) of the question is as follows:

1. The Judiciary does not keep detailed statistics on the number of cases of contempt of court. Nonetheless, as far as the Judiciary is able to ascertain from available records, there was a total of 21 convictions of contempt of court between 1994 and 1996 in the then Supreme Court, District Court and Magistrates' Courts.
   
   
2. The maximum penalty imposed in these 21 cases was nine months' imprisonment for breaching an order made by a High Court judge.

3. A judge or magistrate has the power to impose summary punishment on a person who commits a contempt in the face of the court. A review of that power was included in the Law Commission's Report on Contempt of Court, which was completed in December 1986. The Commission concluded as follows:

"We entertain no doubt that the power to deal with a contempt committed in its face is one that a court must of necessity continue to possess. There will be examples of conduct which need to be restrained and punished at once if the machinery of justice is to function properly."

The Commission noted that, under the modern approach, the power of summary punishment should not be used when "it is imperative to act immediately" and has to be exercised "with scrupulous care".

The existence of an independent and professional judiciary and an appeal system are ample safeguards against abuse.

A review of the present situation is not considered necessary.

Traffic Volume of Three Cross-Harbour Tunnels

11. MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of:

1. the average daily traffic volume of each of the three cross-harbour tunnels in the territory since the Western Harbour Crossing was opened to traffic on 30 April this year, together with their respective traffic volumes during the rush hours in the morning (that is, from 7.30 am to 9.30 am) as well as during the rush hours in the evening (that is, from 5.00 pm to 7.00 pm); and

2. the types of vehicles using the three cross-harbour tunnels, together with their respective proportions to the average daily traffic volume in each of the three tunnels?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, the average daily and peak hours traffic running through the Cross Harbour Tunnel, Eastern Harbour Crossing and Western Harbour Crossing in July 1997 is as follows:

Daily/Peak hours traffic through cross harbour tunnels in July 1997 PM Peak

Tunnels	Daily average hourly	AM Peak hourly	PM Peak hourly
Cross Harbour Tunnel	120 800	5 650	6 180
Eastern Harbour Crossing	82 600	5 250	5 690
Western Harbour Crossing	19 500	1 320	1 640

As regards the average daily traffic by vehicle types in each of the tunnels, relevant statistics are shown in the Annex. Members will note that the bulk of vehicle types is made up of private cars and taxis, ranging from 68% to 77% of the total. This is followed by light goods vehicles and double deck buses.

Annex

Average Daily Number of Vehicles by Types Using Cross Harbour Tunnel,
Eastern Harbour Crossing and Western Harbour Crossing in July 1997

Tunnel	Private	Motor	Private/	Private/ Public Buses	Light	Medium	Heavy
	Cars and Taxis	Cycles	Public light Buses	Single Deck	Double Deck	Goods Vehicles	Goods Vehicles	Goods Vehicles	Total
Cross	83 660	4 260	2 410	3 170	5 340	18 070	3 100	790	120800
Harbour	(69.3%)	(3.5%)	(2.0%)	(2.6%)	(4.4%)	(15.0%)	(2.6%)	(0.6%)	(100%)
Tunnel
Eastern	56 150	1 660	860	510	1 450	17 480	4 160	280	82 550
Harbour	(68.0%)	(2.0%)	(1.1%)	(0.6%)	(1.8%)	(21.2%)	(5.0%)	(0.3%)	(100%)
Crossing
Western	15 020	280	270	150	1 280	2 170	330	20	19 520
Harbour	(76.9%)	(1.4%)	(1.4%)	(0.8%)	(6.6%)	(11.1%)	(1.7%)	(0.1%)	(100%)
Crossing

Tax Incentives for Industrial and Commercial Corporations

12. MR JAMES TIEN (in Chinese): Will the Government undertake a thorough comparison between the tax incentives offered to industrial and commercial corporations by the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government and those by our neighbouring major competitors such as South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia, so that the industrial and commercial sectors in Hong Kong can make reference to such a comparison when giving their views on the "Profits Tax Review Consultation Document"?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Chinese): Madam President, each economy has unique characteristics in its tax structure, regulatory framework and overall business environment. Hong Kong gives a general incentive to the industrial and commercial sectors by maintaining a low, simple and predictable profits tax regime which applies across the board to all sectors. Other economies in the region offer a variety of tax incentives in different forms to selected sectors. Since these tax incentives vary so greatly in relation to different industries, different levels of investment and over different periods, making a thorough comparison between them and the position in Hong Kong would be exceedingly difficult, is unlikely to be meaningful and might indeed be misleading. We will therefore welcome comments on the Profits Tax Review Consultation Document which are focused on the intrinsic merits and demerits of our own system.

Traffic Accidents on Village Roads

13. MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

1. whether statistics are available on traffic accidents occurring on roads in village areas; if so, of the number of such accidents involving pedestrians in each of the past three years;
   
   
2. of the speed limits imposed on roads in village areas;
   
   

3. what measures are in place to ensure the safety of pedestrians if both vehicles and pedestrians are allowed to use these roads; and

4. whether it will consider building road humps on these roads in order to reduce the speed of vehicles?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, our traffic accident database system classifies and records the type of roads according to their location, the speed limit imposed, the number of traffic lanes on the road and whether or not pavement/pedestrian footpath is provided. There is unfortunately no such category as "village road". Nevertheless, for the purpose of this reply, we would assume that the normal understanding of a village road is that it is in the New Territories located outside new town areas, has a speed limit of 50km/h or less (which is the normal lower end of the speed limit), has two lanes or fewer and does not have a footpath on at least one side of the road. Applying these criteria to our traffic accident database, we have found that the number of pedestrian accidents over the last three years on these roads is as follows:

For comparison, during the same period, there were a total of 695 pedestrian accidents on all roads in the New Territories located outside new town areas and has a speed limit of 50km/h or less, and a total of 15 115 pedestrian accidents on all roads in the territory.

For pedestrians' safety, we put in place footpaths of adequate width on all public roads wherever practicable. In addition, the following measures are implemented, where necessary:

1. erection of safety barriers and guardrailings to protect pedestrians or channel them onto the footpaths;

2. provision of appropriate crossing facilities such as cautionary, zebra or signal-controlled crossings at suitable locations; and

3. erection of warning signs to alert drivers of pedestrians crossing or moving ahead.

As regards road humps, they are mainly used on private roads within housing estates where speeds are generally kept below 20 km/h. These humps may also be used for single track access roads in the vicinity of village housing where it is desirable to maintain low traffic speeds. However, if motorists, particularly motorcyclists, have not adequately reduced their speed when passing over the road humps, accidents may easily occur. We therefore do not normally use road humps, but install warning signs to alert motorists of any particular hazard ahead and advise them to reduce speed as appropriate.

Family Planning Assistance for New Immigrant Families

14. MRS PEGGY LAM (in Chinese): As the families of new arrivals from the Mainland who have come to settle in Hong Kong generally have a large number of children, will the Government inform this Council what measures are in place to assist them in family planning?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Madam President, the Department of Health's maternal and child health centres (MHCs) and the government-subsidized Family Planning Association of Hong Kong (FPA) provide family planning services to people who need such services. The services include advice on birth control and infertility counselling, and are available to new arrivals in the 49 MHCs and eight FPA clinics located throughout the territory.

New arrivals from the Mainland are distributed a "Guidebook on Services for New Arrivals in Hong Kong" published by the Home Affairs Department (HAD) when they enter Hong Kong. The Guidebook contains information on the family planning services available. New arrivals may also make inquiries at public medical institutions and the District Offices of HAD.

The health care staff of the MHCs will provide information on family planning services to the new arrivals when they attend the MHCs with their children for child health services. The Social Welfare Department and related social service organizations will also refer the new arrivals who need family planning advice to the relevant agencies.

Implementation of Electricity (Wiring) Regulations

15. MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Chinese): It is reported that since the implementation of the Electricity (Wiring) Regulations, tests on electrical installations have yet to be carried out in some 75% of buildings in Hong Kong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the measures adopted by the department concerned to expedite completion of tests on electrical installations in these buildings;

2. whether the procedure for tests on electrical installations will be streamlined so as to assist Owners' Corporations, mutual aid committees and property owners to complete the tests as early as possible; and

3. whether greater emphasis will be given to publicizing the stipulations of the Regulations; if so, of the publicity strategy to be adopted?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President, the Electricity (Wiring) Regulations came into operation in June 1992. Under the Regulations, owners of certain types of low-voltage fixed electrical installation shall have their installations inspected, tested and certified at least once every five years by a registered electrical contractor.

1. The Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (EMSD) has been publicizing the requirements under the Electricity (Wiring) Regulations to increase public awareness of the action required of owners of the electrical installations concerned and the publicity campaign is continuing. As most of the buildings where testing of installations have yet to be conducted are those without Owners' Corporations or property management agencies, the EMSD is working closely with the Home Affairs Department to assist owners in completing the periodic test.

2. The periodic tests are carried out by registered electrical contractors. Owners of electrical installation need only to hire such a contractor to carry out the work and then submit the test certificate issued by the contractor to the EMSD for endorsement.

3. The EMSD has been publicizing the requirements of the Regulations since their enactment. Announcements on television and radio, which started in April 1996, are continuing. Another 2.3 million copies of a flyer reminding the public of the periodic test requirement are being distributed to all households together with electricity bills from July to November this year.

Air Quality

16. LAU KONG-WAH (in Chinese): In view of the poor air quality in recent days, particularly on 19 and 20 August, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the causes leading to the poor air quality in recent days;

2. of the long-term and interim measures in place to tackle the problem of poor air quality;

3. whether the poor air quality situation has occurred more frequently in recent years; and

4. of the effect of such a situation on the health of the general public?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. The poor air quality on 19 and 20 August was caused by high concentrations of ozone and nitrogen dioxide, which are formed primarily from pollutants from vehicle emissions and, to a lesser extent, industrial activities. Their high concentrations on these two days were due to the calm air associated with the onset of typhoon, which impeded the normal dispersion of air pollutants.

2. The Administration has already implemented a comprehensive programme to abate air pollution within the statutory framework provided by the Air Pollution Control Ordinance. I have given a full account of the specific air pollution control measures in reply to an oral question at the meeting of the Provisional Legislative Council on 16 July 1997. We will continue to require polluting industrial processes to adopt the best practicable measures to minimize emissions through licensing controls, and will adopt the most stringent standards on vehicle emissions and fuel quality once they are technologically and practically feasible. In the long term, we would aim to reduce the number of diesel vehicles, which are the main source of fine particulates and nitrogen dioxide, by replacing part of them with vehicles operating on cleaner motor fuels such as gas. To this end, we shall launch a trial of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) taxis later this year to ascertain their technical feasibility in Hong Kong and to gauge the operating cost data for devising a viable motor fuel strategy to improve air quality.

3. While the average levels of ozone and nitrogen dioxide in ambient air and respirable particulates in urban roadside appear to be increasing, the frequency of days of serious air pollution is determined mainly by weather conditions. Since the launch of the Air Pollution Index on 6 June 1995, there were six incidents of high Air Pollution Index, of which five took place in 1996. A trend cannot be established yet.

4. A number of research results in some countries have shown that air pollution is associated with increased morbidity and mortality in patients with underlying respiratory or heart disorders. Vulnerable groups such as young children and the aged are at a higher risk of developing respiratory symptoms when exposed to air pollution.

Studies on Welfare of Elderly

17. MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Chinese): In March/April this year, the Government revealed to the former Legislative Council and social service organizations that two studies on elderly recipients of assistance under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme were being conducted. One of the studies focused on the living conditions of the elderly who were CSSA recipients, while the other centred on studying the living conditions of the elderly who were eligible for CSSA but had not applied for it as well as their reasons for not applying. The Government indicated at the time that the results of these studies would be taken into account when a review of the rate of CSSA payment for the elderly and other aspects of the CSSA Scheme, such as the prescribed asset limit, was undertaken. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

1. the two studies mentioned above have been completed; if so, when the results will be released;

2. elderly groups, social service organizations and the public will be consulted on the findings of the studies; if not, why not; and

3. the Government will consult elderly groups, social service organizations and the public when undertaking a review of the rate of CSSA payment for the elderly and the prescribed asset limit; if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. The survey component of the study on the elderly on CSSA has been completed. The report is being prepared and we expect work on this study to be completed within this month. The other study on non-CSSA elderly has also commenced and is expected to complete towards the end of this year. Members and relevant parties will be informed of the findings as and when the studies are completed.

   (b) and (c)

   We have been listening to the views of relevant parties as well as Members in relation to CSSA payments to the elderly. The two studies in question, specifically commissioned to solicit first hand the views of the "affected parties", are part and parcel of the consultation exercise.

HKMA's Bilateral Repurchase Agreements

18. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Chinese): The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government recently lent US$1 billion from its Exchange Fund to Thailand for rescuing the Thai baht. However, the arrangement was not made by means of a bilateral repurchase agreement through the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA). In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

1. of the nature and effects of the bilateral repurchase agreements made between the HKMA and its counterparts in the relevant countries; and

2. whether the procedures for using the Exchange Fund to assist foreign countries will be reviewed; if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. The bilateral repurchase agreements the HKMA signed with 10 other central banks and monetary authorities in the Asian region are agreements, in times of need, for the parties to those agreements to exchange between themselves United States Treasury securities for United States dollar cash balances for a short period of time. They are in effect agreements for lending United States dollars against the full collateral of United States Treasury securities without the assumption of credit risks to each other. The purpose of the bilateral repurchase agreements is for parties to those agreements to assist each other in enhancing the liquidity of their foreign exchange reserves held in the form of United States Treasury securities.

2. Whenever the Exchange Fund is used for this or any other strategic purpose, it is used strictly in accordance with the provisions of the Exchange Fund Ordinance laid down by the legislature.

Supervision of Broker's Firms

19. MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Chinese): It was reported that the branch manager of a securities company went missing recently and some investors suspected that they had been cheated of large sums of money. In this connection, does the Government know:

1. how the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) supervises broker's firms to ensure their strict compliance with the "Management, Supervision and Internal Control Guidelines for Persons Registered with or Licensed by the Securities and Futures Commission" so as to protect the rights and interests of investors;

2. whether the SFC has investigated, or has taken any disciplinary action against, those broker's firms which were alleged to have breached the above Guidelines since the promulgation of the Guidelines;

3. of the present progress of the plan under which investors can open individual Investor Accounts directly with the Central Clearing and Settlement System; and

4. of the measures which will be adopted by the SFC to enhance individual investors' knowledge of their own rights and interests?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,

1. The Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) is responsible for supervising the market operation and ensuring that the relevant laws and regulations are observed. In respect of licensed intermediaries, it has made it clear that day to day compliance is the responsibility of management of the licensed entities.

   The publication of the Code of Conduct in February 1994 and the Management, Supervision and Internal Control Guidelines for Persons Registered with or Licensed by the SFC in May 1997 is to set out the Commission's clear expectation of management by the licensed entities. Consistent with the approach, the Commission has also taken the following steps in ensuring compliance:

   1. ensure through its licensing procedures that only apparently fit and proper persons are licensed and authorized to manage licensed entities;

   2. undertake an extensive inspection programme which focuses on adherence to the Code and the Guidelines; and

   3. require action to remedy defects in systems, investigate and take action where it becomes aware of serious breaches.

2. Inspection visits are part of SFC's ongoing work in ensuring compliance. Since the publication of the Guidelines in May 1997, the SFC have conducted 135 inspection visits of registered or licensed entities which have led to three further inquiries and one restriction notice being issued.

3. Access to the Central Clearing and Settlement System (CCSS) is currently limited to market intermediaries. The Hong Kong Securities Clearing Corporation, which is responsible for running the CCSS, is further developing the System to enable direct investor participation. Technical details are being worked out and progress so far remains on schedule. Direct access by investors is expected to be introduced from mid-1998 onwards.

4. The SFC has taken a number of initiatives to enhance investors' knowledge of the market and to improve their ability to protect their own rights and interest when investing in the market. These include the setting up of an Investor Education Unit in April 1996; the publications of a series of booklets and uploading their contents on the Internet; the launching of a series of educational stories on both newspaper and the Internet; broadcast of documentaries and publicity programmes on television; operation of a telephone hotline to handle investor enquiries and complaints; and participation in exhibitions and seminars. The Commission will continue these activities, while also developing more publications on topics of interest, exploring other media for dissemination of educational messages, and co-ordinating educational activities with the Exchanges and other market bodies.

BILLS

Resumption of Second Reading Debate

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Second Reading. We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997.

HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 20 August 1997

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 be read the Second time.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council is now in Committee.

HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses and schedule stand part of the Bill.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 2.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading. Chief Secretary for Administration.

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Motions. Motion on the Council emblem. Dr LEONG Che-hung.

COUNCIL EMBLEM

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed on the Agenda and hope that Honourable Members will agree that the design attached to this resolution be adopted as the emblem of the Provisional Legislative Council.

In fact, Madam President, Members have all along held the view that a legislature should have its own emblem as a sign of its independent identity as a legislature, and that an emblem will also help promote our image. Therefore, after considering a number of designs, the Provisional Legislative Council Commission decided to propose to this Council the adoption of this pattern designed by the Information Services Department as our emblem. The characteristic of this design centres around the bauhinia pattern of the emblem of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR). Given that the Provisional Legislative Council is an important component of the government framework of the SAR, it is indeed appropriate to adopt this design.

If the resolution is passed today, the emblem will be used for the following purposes:

- the letterheads of the Provisional Legislative Council, the Provisional Legislative Council Commission and the Secretariat;

- the souvenirs of the Provisional Legislative Council;

- the letterheads of individual Members;

- the name cards of Members and the Secretariat staff;

- the insignia on vehicles;

- the Provisional Legislative Council homepage on Internet; and

- the publications of the Provisional Legislative Council and the Provisional Legislative Council Commission.

Madam President, I know it is very difficult for all 60 Honourable colleagues ─ including you of course ─ to select an emblem. This is indeed very similar to selecting a spouse. It is hard to say that this is the right one as someone's wife or husband. But if colleagues feel today that this legislature needs an emblem, I very much hope that they can take the following major principles into consideration:

firstly, the emblem must be simple;

secondly, it has to be representative; and

thirdly, it has to be solemn.

I personally feel that the characteristic of the emblem we submit today can well reflect the three major principles mentioned above, and I hope that Honourable colleagues will shave my view too. Therefore, I earnestly hope that Members will support the proposal of the Provisional Legislative Council Commission. Lastly, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the colleagues of the Information Services Department who have made a lot of efforts for the emblem. I would like to express our gratitude to them on behalf of the House.

Thank you, Madam President.

Dr LEONG Che-hung to move the following motion:

"Resolved that the design attached to this resolution be adopted as the emblem of the Provisional Legislative Council."

Appendix

Bauhinia design of the Regional Emblem,

surrounding words in red.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That this Council approves the adoption of the design attached to this resolution as the emblem of the Provisional Legislative Council.

Does any Member wish to speak? Mr LAU Wong-fat? Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have studied in detail the emblem proposed by Dr LEONG Che-hung. I feel that this emblem is almost a perfect choice except for the English print. In my opinion, the three English words are too close. It will be acceptable if the words can be slightly separated. However, the most important thing is to ensure that the five petals are pointing in the right direction. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Dr LEONG Che-hung, do you wish to reply?

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, please allow me to say a few more words. First of all, I would like to thank Dr Raymond HO for his comments. I believe that the Provisional Legislative Council Commission will surely study them in detail and come up with a design acceptable to Members. In fact, under colonial rule, the legislature of Hong Kong has never had its own emblem. As Members are aware, we used to put an insignia in front of our cars or even printed it on our writing papers. However, that emblem did not bear the characteristics of the then legislature. It was only adapted from the emblem of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association with slight alterations. Now we are able to take charge of our own business and I really hope that we can have our own emblem. I also hope that Honourable colleagues will support the resolution today bearing this principle in mind.

Some colleagues said the Provisional Legislative Council would only last for a short while and the first Legislative Council would come into existence several months later. In other words, would this emblem last for a few months only? This is of course possible because the first Legislative Council or the future legislature may make alterations to it. However, I believe if colleagues adopt the three principles, namely, simplicity, representativeness and solemnity I mentioned just now, Members may continue to accept this emblem as the emblem of the future legislature so that it may last. This emblem is actually very simple. The future legislature needs only to change the name from Provisional Legislative Council to Legislative Council and the emblem can continue to be used. I very much believe that many of my colleagues sitting here will be elected in the first Legislative Council elections. They will definitely support the continued use of this emblem. If the Legislative Council has its own building by that time, alternation may need to be made to the emblem to adopt the characteristics of that building. But that is of course another matter in future. I wish Honourable colleagues will give their support. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated.

Will does in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Two motions with no legal effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies, and another five minutes to speak on the proposed amendment. Other Members, including the movers of the amendments, will each have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Rule 37 of the Rules of Procedure, I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First motion. Mr WONG Siu-yee.

SETTING UP OF "SENIOR CITIZEN'S PARADISE"

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Before I start my speech, Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank all Members of this Council. After I put forward the proposal for the "Senior Citizen's Paradise", I have received concerns, inquiries and, more importantly, support and encouragement from Members. I profoundly believe that all Members of this Council share the same goal and ideal and that is to care for the elderly and endeavour to raise the quality of geriatric care in Hong Kong incessantly. At the same time, I would also like to express my gratitude to Prof Eva LI Bik-chi for preparing the proposal with me. Madam President, my speech will be roughly divided into three parts. In the first part, I will briefly talk about the present situation.

According to the information provided by the Census and Statistics Department, there were more than 889 000 people who were over the age of 60 in Hong Kong in mid-1996. It was estimated that, by 2001, the number of elderly people aged over 60 would reach 1.17 million, representing an increase of 30%.

There are at present three types of geriatric care subsidized by the Government: the first type is social centres for the elderly. 198 such centres have already been opened and each of them has an area of about 2 000 sq ft, serving approximately 500 elderly persons. In total, they serve about 98 000 elderly persons. The second type is multi-service centres for the elderly. As at the end of March this year, there are 27 of them and each serves almost two times the number of elderly people that a social centre for the elderly serves. In other words, these centres serve about 27 000 people. The third type is elderly health centres which provide body check-up service for the elderly over the age of 65. There are currently seven such centres and the number of members amounts to a few thousands. As for other services provided for elderly people aged 60 to 64, there are the "woman health centres" but their services are exclusive to women. It seems that there is some sort of sexual discrimination here but this is a digression. Combining all the three types of centres mentioned above, they can only provide basic services for 100 000-odd elderly persons and this means that only 10% of the total elderly population in Hong Kong can be benefited. Obviously it reflects that at present geriatric care is seriously inadequate and its quality is not high enough.

Apart from the inadequacy of geriatric care and the lack of quality, Madam President, we can also take a look at how hundreds of thousands elderly people in Hong Kong lead their lives in their twilight years. Everyday, in the small parks of housing estates and at every corner of the streets where one can linger for a while, we can see groups of lonely, elderly people sitting on the benches to spend their days. Meanwhile, we can also see a huge group of elderly people still working hard everyday to eke out a living by doing some lowly work and what they manage to do is to earn a meagre income only. There are yet a greater number of elderly people who toil and moil everyday to take care of their families and lead a humdrum life. All these show that the spiritual lives of the elderly in Hong Kong are poor, monotonous and lack of sustenance. Madam President, witnessing the lack of spiritual sustenance of the elderly, a group of friends and I came up with the notion and proposal of a "Senior Citizen's Paradise." I hope the Government will accept it and I hope this Council will support it as well.

In the second part, I would like to talk about the concept of "open care" and the objective and services of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". The objective of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is to, based on the concept of "open care", regard the elderly as important organic members of the community so as to provide them with care and sustenance, both materialistically and spiritually. Other than strengthening and perfecting traditional geriatric care of "providing the elderly with a sense of security and medical care", the scheme of providing "open care" and a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" also aims at enhancing "a feeling of health and worthiness, a feeling of intellect and a feeling of happiness". With support from the Government and care of the community, the elderly will be able to develop their potential through active participation. As a result, the elderly will provide services, encourage learning and strengthen communication among themselves, thus altering their appalling conditions materially and spiritually. The most important concept of "open care" is to let senior citizens run the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" by themselves, thereby exploring the enormous human resources which have all along been ignored. While these human resources are being explored, the elderly will, at the same time, appreciate their own value and they will spend their twilight years in a more meaningful and splendid manner as a result.

In terms of both the size and facilities provided, the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" will be different from the existing centres for the elderly. The major services provided will include medical and health care, psychological counselling, dynamic and static recreational activities, nutritional meals and diversified group activities. Compared with other elderly organizations, each of these services will be more comprehensive with more choices and higher quality.

Madam President, I now turn to the third part and I will report to Members the opinions collected after I have completed the proposal in early August. My proposal has been distributed to all Members here, the Chief Executive, principal government officials, Members of the Executive Council, the Elderly Commission, the two Provisional Municipal Councils, the 18 Provisional District Boards, social service organizations, elderly centres, the Selection Committee and the departments concerned of various universities and tertiary institutions. Advertisements have also been placed in three Chinese newspapers to solicit opinions from the public. In this short consultation period of 20-odd days, the responses have been good and enthusiastic. I have constantly received valuable views from people of various fields and sectors. Of the 200-odd submissions, 98% have indicated support and I am indeed profoundly encouraged. Apart from that, some of the submissions have raised certain questions. Before I report the preliminary opinions on the consultation, I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to those people who have put forward their views.

Madam President, to avoid "making a boast of myself", I have selected some representative opinions from the 200-odd submissions and proposals received for Honourable colleagues' reference.

For example, Mr CHOI Wai-hang, a Deputy to the National People's Congress and the Chairman of the Hong Kong Chinese Reform Association, said in his submission: "The scheme of a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is in great conformity with the realistic needs of Hong Kong society and I highly appreciate it." Dr Alfred CHAN Cheung-ming, Associate Professor of the Applied Science Department of the City University of Hong Kong, pointed out in his submission: "The intent and basic concepts of the proposal merit support" and he has also put forward four proposals. Abbot SIK Wing-sing, Chairman of the Bodhi Siksa Society, said in his submission: "I endorse highly the setting up of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". By providing the elderly with a sense of security and medical care, we can solve their problems pertaining to food, accommodation and health. By means of the promotion of "providing the elderly with a feeling of health and worthiness, a feeling of intellect and a feeling of happiness", we can solve the problems pertaining to their spiritual lives. Both are very important and indispensable to the elderly." Mr SHUM Yee-cheung, a retired elderly gentleman, responded by saying: "Given the position, conditions and resources of Hong Kong, the establishment of a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is realizable. The Paradise should be able to live up to its name of being a "Home for the Elderly". What particularly moves me is that the clan of Mr David TANG Yiu-lin, an indigenous New Territories resident, is willing to sell at a low price three pieces of farmland belonging to the family with a total area of 30 000 sq ft for the construction of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise".

Among the many responses I have received concerning the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" scheme, Madam President, the majority are from retired elderly people. They indicated in their responses that being an old person, they understood naturally the situation and mentality of the elderly. They very much supported the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" scheme so that all elderly people in Hong Kong could spend their twilight years in a positive and fulfilled manner and with sustenance. A lot of celebrities have even requested to meet with me to give their suggestions in more detail.

Madam President, of the responses made by the various sectors of the community regarding the "Senior Citizen's Paradise", although the majority are positive and supportive, a small proportion still have some doubts about the scheme. In this connection, I would like to reply to and clarify them here.

One of the questions is: As at present there are already many institutions providing geriatric care in Hong Kong, such as social centres for the elderly, multi-service centres for the elderly and elderly health centres, will the establishment of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" lead to an overlapping and a waste of resources?

In this connection, I have to point out categorically that, just as the data reflected in the first part of my speech show, the existing geriatric care in Hong Kong is scattered and far from being sufficient. The setting up of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is precisely aimed at strengthening and centralizing various geriatric services, thereby improving the quality of the services.

Therefore, the question that the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" scheme and the existing elderly centres will overlap in terms of organization and lead to a waste of resources is indeed a misunderstanding. In fact, it is exactly due to the serious inadequacy and the scattered nature of the existing geriatric services that it is necessary to set up a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" to enhance improvements and centralize the original services. This will in turn effect an improvement in quality so that all the elderly people in Hong Kong will be taken care of and have spiritual sustenance.

Madam President, a second question suspects whether the elderly will be able to manage the Paradise and provide services. This question arises out of the old concept of "septuagenarians are scarce since ancient times". In fact, with the improvements in medicine and nutrition in modern times, the life expectancy of human beings is lengthened and senility postponed. As data show, the average life span of Hong Kong people is 75 years for men and 80 years for women. I believe that most of the people in their sixties or seventies whom Members meet, acquaintances and strangers alike, are full of vigour and physically fit. Many of them may even possess professional knowledge and skills and the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" happens to be the right place for them to give full play to their abilities and serve other elderly people. We should not forget that when Mr DENG Xiaoping re-appeared for the third time to promote reforms and the open policy with a view to changing the destiny of China, he was already an old man in his seventies. President JIANG Zemin is 71 years old this year, but he still glows with health and radiating vigour. President REAGAN of the United States was over 70 when he assumed presidency. The respectable Mrs Elsie TU, Mr NGAI Shiu-kit, Mrs Peggy LAM, Mr CHOY Kan-pui and Mr HUI Yin-fat, who are sitting here, are still working hard to serve the public. Therefore, the viewpoint that cast doubt on the potential of the elderly cannot hold water.

Finally, Madam President, I would like to summarize my speech. The concept of "open care" of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is different from the concept of "closed care" of the traditional geriatric policy. The most important point about "open care" is to achieve the five major objectives of ideal geriatric care through active participation and, at the same time, turn around the stereotypes and pessimistic outlook of the elderly moulded by social prejudice. The traditional angle of looking at elderly people is often like the classic poem that reads: "the setting sun is magnificent, yet it is almost dusk". However, with "open care", the poem can be changed to: "with such a magnificent sunset, why should one be disconsolate at the impending dusk?", thus allowing all the elderly in the territory to spend their twilight years splendidly. Through this motion debate moved by me and the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance, I hope that we will be able to achieve the goal of attracting valuable opinions and Members will expound their golden remarks to make the proposed scheme more reasonable and perfect, thus enabling "Senior Citizen's Paradise No. 1", "Senior Citizen's Paradise No. 2" and even leading up to "Senior Citizen's Paradise No. 18" to come into existence smoothly.

With these remarks, Madam President, I sincerely urge all Members of this Council to support my motion. Thank you.

MR WONG SIU-YEE moved the following motion:

"That this Council urges the Government to consider setting up of "Senior Citizen's Paradise", so as to provide the elderly with the opportunity to develop their potential, and enable them to receive higher quality and more comprehensive geriatric care."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That this Council urges the Government to consider setting up of "Senior Citizen's Paradise", so as to provide the elderly with the opportunity to develop their potential, and enable them to receive higher quality and more comprehensive geriatric care.

Council shall now proceed to a debate. Does any Member wish to speak? Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam President, a concrete and comprehensive policy on care for the elderly has been lacking during the reign of the British Hong Kong Government. In 1994, the former Governor, Chris PATTEN, proposed an "Old Age Pension Scheme" which sought to increase the amount of cash with immediate effect. It was basically a means of "dispensing cash upon receipt" and would impose a heavy burden on taxpayers in the future. Therefore, it was met with great opposition. After the abortion of the Scheme, the sunset government has never considered seriously other means of elderly protection again.

However, we have to admit the fact that, just like other cities in the world, Hong Kong is now facing the problem of an aging population. Rightly as the Honourable WONG Siu-yee said, with the rise in the ratio of elderly people to the total population, the pressure on elderly services is constantly on the rise. We do need to face squarely the elderly problem and to formulate a concrete and long-term policy for elderly care.

In my opinion, the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposed by Mr WONG Siu-yee and the focal point of the work of the Elderly Commission established earlier can be said to be complementary to one another. While their principles and directions are more or less similar, the proposal on a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is even more concrete and substantial. Apart from achieving in concrete terms the targets set by the Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, of providing the elderly with a sense of security, a sense of belonging and a feeling of health and worthiness, it can also provide them with a feeling of happiness and a feeling of intellect.

Elderly care has all along been focusing only on the provision of a sense of security and medical care. Retired elderly people over the age of 60 are often regarded as people who need to be taken care of and will only place burdens on society. It has always been ignored that many of them are still physically fit and can actively serve the community instead of being taken care of by others.

The "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is precisely providing a solution for this problem in light of the prevailing circumstances. It will employ energetic and learned elderly people who are enthusiastic at serving the community to provide services such as continued learning, retraining, recreation, health care and social activities for other elderly citizens. Such a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" has two main characteristics:

(1) On the one hand, it will allow the able-bodied elderly people to continue to serve the community and prevent them from becoming a burden on society even though they have retired. At the same time, they can continue to work and have sustenance in their daily lives. On the other hand, the interest groups of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" can provide the elderly with an opportunity to keep on learning and enjoy it at the same time.

(2) Besides, it will be more appropriate for the able-bodied elderly people to serve the elderly who are physically weak because they are both aged people and it is easier for them to communicate. They will share the same feeling towards a certain kind of matters and this can help them face another phase of their lives more positively. Therefore, I strongly agree that the able-bodied elderly people be employed to serve the elderly in need so that the former can develop their good qualities and continue to contribute to society, rather than doing nothing after their retirement.

For these reasons, I support Mr WONG Siu-yee's motion.

I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe that every colleague sitting here respects and cares about the elderly, so I think we all support the work being done in this area by the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung at the moment. We consider the subject covered by today's motion is only a small part of the whole big issue.

Let us look at the proposal of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" to see if it is worthy of our support in terms of its concept, content and operation. Just now Mr WONG Siu-yee has also mentioned that some people think the Paradise seems to bear resemblance to a social centre for the elderly, multi-service centre for elderly and elderly health centre, yet he deems that they are actually different. However, after studying the proposal in detail, I still fail to see how the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" differs basically from the existing elderly centres concept-wise or operation-wise. The "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposes to provide the elderly with services which are more extensive or of higher quality than those of the existing elderly centres. The services provided in the Paradise will include learning, training, travelling, social activities, nutritional meals, body check-ups and so on. But as far as I understand it, the existing elderly centres are doing all these things at the moment. As regards how the quality can be improved, I fail to see any suggestion at all.

Experience tells us that all activities of the elderly centres are greatly supported and welcomed by the elderly. The problem only lies in insufficient places. In other words, what we lack now is quantity for there is insufficient supply. We should suit the remedy to the case instead of making things redundant and doing things not absolutely necessary at the moment. In fact, what we need most now is to increase the number of places in the elderly centres as soon as possible since the actual waiting time is very long and the demand importunate.

In every discussion about government subsidy, public money is definitely involved. How should we use public money? Should we enhance the "quality" of the services or increase the "quantity"? In view of the enormous demand for elderly services, I think "quantity" is very important. Basically, although the whole concept of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" boasts a novel package and advances some sort of relatively "up-market" arguments such as openness, care and so on, the Paradise is, to a certain extent, infringing upon intellectual property because it is actually a replica of an elderly centre. Other than its name (the way it is called is innovative), its functions and objective seem to be completely the same as those of the elderly centres.

Besides, when we consider using public money to help the elderly, we have to think about choices. One very important thing we have to do now is to increase the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) payment for the elderly. This is our consensus and the priority area which warrants enhancement. There is a need for Mr TAM Yiu-chung to deal with this matter as soon as possible. In my opinion, this is better than slowly building some sort of so-called high quality paradises.

There is another thing which is also very important to the elderly and that is: the provision of CSSA for the elderly to enable them to live in the Mainland, something we have fought for in the past. This problem has been under discussion for a very long time and the Government has also formulated a policy for it. But how is the policy going to be implemented? It is still not realizable in the foreseeable future. In February this year, the then Government said it would respond by negotiating with the authorities concerned in the Mainland to implement the plan. However, we have not heard anything yet. In my opinion, such ways of handling the problem are more realistic and they will be of greater help to the elderly.

If the elderly need help in accommodation after they retire, we should co-operate with the Mainland as early as possible. With respect to their need for social activities, I think the only solution should be to strengthen the functions of the elderly centres and increase the number of places as soon as possible. Of course, we, members from the Liberal Party, will not object to any proposal which helps the elderly, but we have great reservations about the concept of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" and therefore we will abstain in the vote.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK Ying-fan.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, to begin with, I would like to tell a story. Once upon a time, there was a gorgeously dressed rich man who was very kind-hearted. One day, he went to another village to visit a sage in the hope of finding a way to make himself happy. When he saw the sage, the sage told him, "If you want to be happy, you should give the most important thing you own to someone who is in need of your help, then he will be very happy and you will find happiness too!"

Having obtained the sage's advice, the rich man returned home. On the way, he saw a ragged old beggar around a street corner who was on the verge of death. He immediately took off his beautiful coat and drape it over the beggar's shoulders, saying, "Brother, I am now giving you my favourite coat, you will be very happy with it on." After saying so, the rich man went home happily since he felt that he had already helped the beggar. Unfortunately, not long after the rich man had left, the dying old man slowly starved to death because he did not have anything to eat. Putting on the gorgeous coat simply could not get him out of his plight.

Madam President, the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposed by Mr WONG Siu-yee reminded me of the story I told Members just now, which many Honourable colleagues might have also heard of. While it will be worthwhile for us to conduct an in-depth study on the conception and motivation of Mr WONG in order to consider the scheme's feasibility, just like the rich man giving his gorgeous coat to the beggar, the scheme has not responded squarely to the actual needs of the elderly living under the poverty line in Hong Kong.

How can the elderly really have a "Senior Citizen's Paradise"? The Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (HKADPL) and I have come to the view that the most urgent task is to let the elderly lead a dignified life. There are now 150 000 elderly people in Hong Kong who are not Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) recipients and their incomes are lower than that of the 20% lowest income group. Their average expenditure per month is limited to about $1,500. As for the elderly CSSA recipients, they can now receive $1,800 and their daily expenses for the whole month have to be compressed into the $1,800. Of course, the Secretary even said earlier that they still had savings. These elderly people who have contributed the prime of their life to building the prosperity of Hong Kong have to economize on food and clothing. Honourable colleagues, while the '90s sees a rapid development in our material life and information technology, the quality of life of our elderly citizens still remains in the '40s and '50s. Can the setting up of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" solve this problem? Besides, the Hong Kong Government currently has hundreds of billions of dollars in fiscal reserves and surplus, are we going to ignore the needs of the elderly and allow their quality of life to receive no improvement?

To achieve the Elderly Commission's goal of providing the elderly with "a sense of security, a sense of belonging and a feeling of health and worthiness", in particular "a sense of security" which is of paramount importance as mentioned by the Elderly Commission, it is imperative for the Government to formulate a comprehensive and long-term elderly policy. Every issue should have its order of importance and urgency. As HKADPL sees it, the setting up of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is not necessarily a problem that needs to be solved and faced urgently. Rather, we think that the most imminent elderly problem that we need to solve and face at present is an improvement in their quality of life.

The foremost task that the Government has to do urgently is to improve the CSSA Scheme, including an immediate increase of the CSSA payment by $300. I believe a lot of colleagues will make this request later. Furthermore, the assets ceiling on the applicants for CSSA should be raised to $100,000, an amount which the HKADPL has always insisted on. In the long run, we feel that the CSSA payment for the elderly should be raised, just like the international standard, to one third of the median personal income.

With regard to housing, we see that the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" can only solve the problems pertaining to the general spiritual lives of the elderly. However, what we attach importance to is spiritual life as a sublimation of material life. Many elderly people are still living in bedspece apartments or waiting for public housing, or sharing a unit with a few other elderly people, and that has often led to bloodshed. If we leave these substantial problems unresolved, the elderly who have contributed the greater part of their lives to Hong Kong can still not enjoy a reasonable spiritual life even though there is a very nice "Senior Citizen's Paradise".

Just as Mrs Selina CHOW said, Madam President, the HKADPL will not object to expanding such kind of elderly services and we feel that we can study and explore the scheme. Basically, will support Mr WONG's view, but I hope this scheme will focus on the improvement of "quality".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am glad to hear the proposal for a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" today. But after studying the proposal carefully, I find it very familiar. Please allow me to openly invite Honourable colleagues of this Council to visit a place since in reality such a paradise does exist in Hong Kong. It is the Chi Lin Nunnery, a place where care for the elderly and various services are offered. I am not singing my own praises here. What I want to do is to make a comparison only.

Our whole philosophy of elderly care is aimed at providing "care" and providing "a feeling of worthiness". In other words, the elderly are free to contribute to society. In respect of providing "care", we have set up a "Loving Care Group". Members of the community will each serve three to five elderly persons and visit them regularly every week. At the same time, we have also set up a "Collective Wisdom Society" for retired elderly. If they think that they can still contribute, they can become members of this Society. They can take up some clerical work or carry out researches in various areas and we will try our best to provide assistance for them. If they want to serve the community or other elderly people, they are most welcome to do so.

In fact, the motion moved by Mr WONG Siu-yee brings out a serious problem. We all know that the aging of our population is getting more and more serious and we should pay more attention to the development in this area. As the residential care centres for the elderly and the home-for-the-aged are seriously inadequate, the sole reliance on the Government to build more residential centres for the elderly is not going to provide the ultimate solution. In reality, there are a lot of private residential centres for the elderly but, for various reasons, in particular land prices, they are far from being well-managed. The Government should do something in this respect. In fact, the Government has, in the past, tried to grant land to private organizations or non-governmental bodies at a comparatively low price for building schools. We propose that the Government should give similar consideration to the elderly problem so that the aged citizens can have more choices.

Since the private homes for the elderly are not well-managed and some elderly people may have managed to save up a small amount of money, they may consider leaving their savings to their relatives. However, they are also worried that their relatives may desert them and swallow up their money, so they have to be particularly nice to their relatives in the hope that they will pay them visits from time to time. But then, the elderly only dare to ask about the condition of their savings once in a while. I believe this is the greatest worry of the elderly.

I hope that, after seeing the arrangements of the Chi Lin Nunnery, Members will perhaps push the Government to allow those organizations intent on providing such services more space. I would like to remind Members that the elderly centres, care and attention home for the elderly and residential centre for the elderly under the Nunnery are not funded by the Government. Instead, they are funded by the public. It is only that the Government found the project satisfactory after its completion and decided to subsidize the organization. Now we have set up two groups of elderly centres, a care and attention home with over 300 beds and a residential centre for the elderly. In addition, we have one private care and attention home with dozens of beds, the "Collective Wisdom Society" I mentioned earlier, and a library. We also offer courses of different interests on a regular basis to show our concern for the elderly. Here I would like to extend an open invitation to all Members again. I hope Members will spare the time to visit the Nunnery to enjoy a vegetarian meal there.

Thank you, Madam President.

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG took the Chair.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, just as other Honourable colleagues said a moment ago, we, members from the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions, will also support the spirit of today's motion. However, we hold many different views regarding the motion's content and direction. We feel that the concerned groups and individuals on the elderly and indeed the demands of the elderly people themselves seem to be very different from the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposal. Therefore, while we support the motion, we hold a different view about the content of the whole scheme.

Mr Deputy, it is very clear to us that the Government tries to delay the formulation of an elderly service development policy because it believes that elderly people should be taken care of by their own families. It was not until 1977 that the Government drafted a green paper on elderly services upon the request of the whole society. And it was only until then that we saw the Government take active action in the area of elderly services. Over the last 20-odd years, the Government has constantly stressed that elderly services have to be strengthened. But in spite of that, the Government has only increased the number of individual items without substantially improving the essence and quality of each of the items. Neither has it made improvement in accordance with the actual needs of the community. As a result, we can see that the elderly services provided by the Government at present have in many aspects failed to meet the elderly people's demand. Many single elderly people are still stranded in a helpless situation. I do not object to doing such things as setting up a "Senior Citizen's Paradise", but this does not seem to be the right direction for solving the elderly problem.

To solve the problem, it will involve the issues we have all along been concerned with. These issues include housing, medical care, finance and social care problems which the elderly are now facing. These are very important aspects, especially at a time when the population of Hong Kong is aging more and more rapidly and the life expectancy of the elderly is getting longer and longer. If we take 60 as the retirement age, on the average, men will at least have 19 years to go while women will have at least 23 years. With such a long old age, is it enough for the Government to limit its services to providing elderly centres and a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" only? Obviously, the elderly will feel extremely inadequate, both psychologically and physiologically. The Government should view the services for the elderly with a holistic approach.

The "Senior Citizen's Paradise" conceived by Mr WONG Siu-yee is in fact very similar to the existing elderly centres. What is going on in the existing government elderly centres? What makes Mr WONG think of reform? I agree to some criticisms saying that if Mr WONG's proposal is implemented, it will lead to redundancy. This is because theoretically the Government has more than 190 such social centres for the elderly. Besides, the Government also has day care centres and multi-service centres for the elderly. Why do we still criticize the Government when it has provided all these services? I believe the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" scheme is not going to solve the problems under criticism. Let me take the elderly centres as an example. We can see that the number of clients is extremely small, whereas the scope of the services is diminishing. As the Government has failed to give publicity to and promote these centres, many elderly people find it very difficult to join these centres even they want to do so. As a matter of fact, the whole organization and management framework of these centres are dissociated from society. In certain districts where the problem of aging population is not serious, the elderly centres are not full. I remember years ago that many elderly people living in Wan Chai had to go to the elderly centres in North Point. With regard to this problem, we have all along been criticizing the Government in the Legislative Council of the former Government. Furthermore, the Government has failed to provide outreaching service for the elderly who find it inconvenient to more around. While Hong Kong covers such a large area, the provision of only one to two outreaching service teams is indeed seriously insufficient, for this is a service badly needed by many elderly people. As they find it inconvenient to move around, how can they manage to go to the elderly centres? The reason behind all these is the lack of co-ordination among various services.

My colleague asked if it was a dream as Mr WONG said that the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" shall be provided with sauna! We of course welcome the provision of sauna service, but we feel that it is sort of detached from the "reality". We accept this proposal, but if the Government cannot even solve the trivial problems I mentioned just now, how can sauna be provided? I have lived in the United Kingdom for a while and the elderly centres there were of higher quality and better-equipped than the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". However, in reality we do not have such centres in Hong Kong, so we have to improve the existing elderly centres from the ground up. If Mr WONG wishes to follow this direction to implement the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" scheme, he should focus on the existing problems to make improvements. These will include the publicity and promotion work I mentioned earlier, structural reforms, provision of services to the elderly who have difficulty in moving around, development of community care and rectification of the undesirable situation of the existing government development and so on.

I remember when I mentioned to the former Government about the insufficiency of elderly centres, it used to make a lot of excuses, saying that it was very difficult to find appropriate locations. According to Mr WONG, 20 000 sq ft of land will be required for the construction of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". If this can be done, I will of course be very pleased. But in reality, the Government will not be able to meet this requirement. Therefore, while I do not negate this point, I think I have to be more realistic.

Besides, Mr WONG mentioned the problem of "scattered" centres. I do have reservation about this point. In fact, I feel that being "scattered" is very important because the elderly can only move around in the community they belong to. Therefore, these "scattered" elderly centres are actually good for them. If all the centres are concentrated in a certain location, how can the elderly get there? This is a problem.

After studying Mr WONG's motion, I support its spirit in general. However, I still have a lot of doubts and a particularly important point is how we are going to deal with the existing problems of the elderly centres. With an aging population and the lengthening of the elderly people's life expectancy, how can we improve the existing government elderly centres? I think this is a more feasible proposal. If we concentrate only on doing something which is comparatively difficult by an objective standard, I am worried that it will only lead to further delays on the part of the Government. As one of the oral questions pointed out earlier with respect to manpower retraining in Hong Kong, the Government just loves to do big but empty thing but achieves nothing after eight or ten years. Therefore, I hope that Mr WONG will face, together with us, the existing problems pertaining to the direction taken by the government elderly service centres and elderly outreaching services.

Moreover, just as I said a moment ago, the elderly problem involves not only residential institutions, but also such major factors as finance, medical service and community care network. We have discussed numerous problems of this kind with the former Government. I earnestly hope that I can hand them to Mr WONG and I hope we can work hand in hand in this Council to force the Government to, first of all, increase the rate of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) payment. Furthermore, in the aspect of medical services, the Government should do more in providing absolutely free medical services to non-CSSA recipient elderly who go to the public hospital for treatment.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Wing-chan.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the issue of elderly welfare has been brought up several times in this Council in only a few months and this is already the third time I speak on it.

The trend of our aging population is an issue of concern to the public in general. But the existing facilities provided for the elderly in Hong Kong lack an overall and forward-looking perspective, thus failing to provide proper assistance for the elderly with urgent needs. I therefore hope that the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government will make early preparation to formulate a comprehensive policy on care for the elderly.

The motion moved by Mr WONG Siu-yee proposes to set up a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" in each district, reflecting the demands of the community for improving the quality of life of the elderly in Hong Kong. Although Miss CHAN Yuen-han criticized just now he was kind of "detached from the reality" by proposing sauna and hoping the Government can allocate 20 000-odd sq ft of land to build the Paradise, we basically support the spirit of his proposal. After Mr WONG has made his offer, I hope the Government can make a counter-offer.

Today, many elderly people in Hong Kong face problems in finance, accommodation, community relationship and health, and these problems are all waiting for a solution. In this respect, the future elderly welfare policy of Hong Kong must aim at achieving the following objectives: to improve the financial situation and living environment of the elderly citizens, to increase their community support and to meet their needs for medical services and so on.

In fact, Mr Deputy, the following points proposed by the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) can solve the problems of elderly welfare more effectively.

To begin with, we should improve the financial situation of the elderly. The Elderly Commission agreed unanimously last Saturday that the amount of the

CSSA payment for the elderly should be raised and this is a welcome direction. The current CSSA payment for the elderly is set at $2,060, which is really insufficient. The DAB is of the opinion that, in calculating an increase for the CSSA payment for the elderly, the Government should pay more attention to the elderly's medical needs. At the same time, the DAB has all along held that the CSSA payment for a single elderly person should be raised to one third of the median income, that is, around $3,300. I hope that the Government will consider seriously this rate of increase proposed by the DAB.

Besides, the SAR Government should also raise the old age allowance to $800 and rescind as soon as possible the absence rule governing the release of the allowance so that the elderly can live more comfortably.

In the short run, the Government should further perfect the Mandatory Provident Fund Scheme; and in the long run, the Mandatory Provident Fund should be developed into a Central Provident Fund to thoroughly solve the financial problems of Hong Kong people after their retirement. Both the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions and the DAB have a "ready-made" retirement scheme in hand. I hope the Government will pay more attention to this aspect from now on.

Another problem that the Government needs to give priority is the housing problem of the elderly. The SAR Government should attach importance to the housing problem faced by the single elderly persons by implementing a policy to help the "elderly bedspace lodgers". The elderly policy of the SAR should take account of providing the elderly with housing of better living environment, such as an "elderly village".

As for other needs of the elderly, the DAB has all along proposed that the scope of service of elderly centres at the community level should be expanded and the centres should be upgraded to multi-service centres in order to provide community care and social activities to all the elderly in Hong Kong. This proposal is, to a certain extent, related to and similar to the concept of today's motion.

We also hope that one elderly health centre can be set up in each of the 18 districts to provide preventive services such as body check-up, health education, specialty referral, home visit and so on to those elderly over the age of 60.

In the meantime, the Government should set up community care/outreaching service teams for the elderly to assist the "elderly at risk". These teams should aim at building up a community care network for the "elderly at risk " as soon as possible.

As for the policy of assisting the elderly to settle in the Mainland after their retirement, the SAR Government has to offer more substantial assistance, especially in helping them to cope with the medical and hospitalization expenses incurred in the Mainland. The Government can also consider introducing an item of medical subsidy in the present mechanism.

Furthermore, the SAR Government should strengthen its co-operation with the welfare or home affairs units in the Mainland to look into the possibility of setting up "elderly villages" in the Mainland, or take the initiative to buy residential care places for those elderly people who wish to return to the Mainland after retirement. Moreover, the Government should actively assist interested organizations in building institutions in the Mainland so as to provide the elderly with more choices.

Early this year, Mr Deputy, the DAB proposed to set up a "fund for the quality of life of the elderly", which can also be called the "seeding fund". In other words, the SAR Government will have to allocate $15 billion to set up the fund and use the annual interest accrued (about $1.1 billion per annum if calculated on an average return rate of 7.5%) for providing additional resources and services for the elderly with the most urgent needs.

The DAB reiterates that our proposal is meritorious in that it can prevent the pressure from aggravating as a result of the rapidly increased government expenditure on welfare. This fund will not replace the existing recurrent expenditure on welfare. After the SAR Government has properly implemented the various elderly policies, the fund can come to a close. The DAB urges the Government to actively reconsider setting up this fund in order to enhance the flexibility of services.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion.

Thank you.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, first of all, I would like to state that I do not mean to disrespect the Honourable WONG Siu-yee, but my following remarks might make him feel I am being a little bit tart. Nevertheless, I think I have the responsibility to tell him clearly here.

Firstly, I feel that his proposal smacks of "producing an extra wheel for a car". Actually, I have a car and it already has four wheels. What Mr WONG Siu-yee proposes is to add an extra wheel to it. Will the car go faster this way? I have doubts about it. Will car wheels become more expensive? I am doubtful about it too.

Besides, I have shown the proposal of "Senior Citizen's Paradise" to some people who are responsible for certain elderly welfare organizations and they think that they are actually providing such kind of services right now. Why does Mr WONG not hold discussions with them and try to review or upgrade these existing services? In fact, this is absolutely practicable. We can see that the elderly welfare is seriously inadequate at present, and the existing elderly centres need to be reviewed in many areas. If we put the resources into effectively reviewing the operation and establishment of the existing elderly centres or the adequacy of the services provided, will it be good enough to meet Mr WONG's demand?

Besides, he mentioned about providing a sauna in the paradise and Miss CHAN Yuen-han has also mentioned this point. I wonder if it is because Mr WONG enjoys saunas and so he has come up with such an idea. However, this is unimportant. The most important thing is that I have consulted with some of my friends and they said that sauna was not suitable for the elderly. I have also asked some old gentlemen whether they liked the provision of sauna facilities. They said that sauna was not really suitable for them because, at their age, they were afraid that the intense heat of sauna might trigger off heart attacks. On the contrary, they asked if massage in Shanghainese style would be available. It is really strange that Mr WONG has not suggested providing this service.

In conclusion, I feel that I would betray my conscience if I vote for this so-called "producing an extra wheel for a car" scheme. But it does not matter because I have always been the one who "holds opposing views". So I will vote against the motion. It is not because the idea is not good enough. I totally respect the views of Mr WONG and I totally respect his goodwill. But if I vote for his motion or abstain from voting, I do not know how to answer to the taxpayers. Our money should not be used in this way. I feel that money has to be used properly and in conformity with economic principles. Since we have already had a good system of elderly centres in place, why do we not improve upon them and make use of resources more effectively?

I also agree with the opinions expressed by some Honourable Members just now. Even though there is such a paradise, many of the elderly may not have the means to pay for transportation to go there. Besides, they may not be physically fit enough to enjoy sauna. Therefore, there are a few points that I find very important. In the long run, the answer lies in the provision of CSSA. Recent news has it that the Elderly Commission presided by the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung would reach a consensus in increasing the amount of CSSA payment for the elderly. But a decision has not been finalized on the rate of increase. However, I hope the increase will at least be $500 to $600. I see that Mr TAM is smiling. I hope he will give us a response later.

Secondly, with regard to the outreaching service, I have been urging the Government to provide this service as soon as possible in the Central and Western District or in districts where the density of the elderly population is relatively high. However, with regrets, the service is still nowhere to be seen. I am also disgusted with the Government's so-called indolence and I would like to censure the Government on this court.

Thirdly, the home helpers. Recently, it came to our notice that when the typhoon signal number 10 was hoisted and during long holidays, many home help services would stop. As a result, a lot of elderly people would have nothing to eat. On the day when the typhoon signal number 10 was hoisted, even private organizations were unable to provide such services for the elderly. This is in fact a very practical problem, why has Mr WONG failed to address it? The elderly may not have enough to eat, let alone expecting them to go to the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" for a workout? They do not even have the strength to do exercises.

Fourthly, with respect to medical care and housing for the elderly, I feel that there is also a need to conduct a review as soon as possible.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TANG Siu-tong.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, Mr WONG Siu-yee has already introduced the merits of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" in detail and I do not want to repeat them again. I would only like to stress that the elderly do have a right to enjoy the welfare provided by the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". Just now many Honourable colleagues questioned why we need to have a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" when we have already had the elderly centres. But as Mr WONG said, the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is actually a venue for offering quality services and more comprehensive and dignified activities. Given the present economic environment of Hong Kong, we do have favourable conditions to realize it. Of course, the Government has even rejected outright our request for increasing the CSSA payment by a hundred-odd dollars for it considers that the increase is inappropriate. Our colleague, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, may talk about this issue later. We have also heard some Members say that the elderly services offered by some private organizations, such as the Chi Lin Nunnery, are quite satisfactory. I think these organizations need to secure help from our wealthy Members or members of the community.

But still, I find some merits in Mr WONG's views. Everyone has a dream in his lifetime. If Mr WONG does not have such an ambitious dream and if he does not work towards this dream, he will never succeed. We ought to set our target high. Even though we may not be able to reach it, we should still work towards it. For example, I might want to make $100 million, but if I cannot make it, $50 million can already be regarded as some sort of achievement. I believe Mr WONG is very kind-hearted and he really wants to provide the elderly with quality services, so he has set his target high. Maybe under the present circumstances he cannot make it, and neither can the society and the Government do it. But still he hopes that the Government can work towards this direction. As the target has been set at an extremely high level, whether it can be achieved or not will depend on the human factor. Perhaps the economic environment of Hong Kong will get better in future and perhaps we will manage to do it. If we do not set such a lofty target, we will stay where we are forever, and I feel sorry for it.

Therefore, I think that Mr WONG needs not worry about such things as "although the setting sun is magnificent, yet it is almost dusk". In fact, as long as we live peacefully and comfortably, in time of long day-time and short night-time, we do not have to fear such things as "although the setting sun is magnificent, yet it is almost dusk" because the days are still long.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support Mr WONG's motion.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TAM Yiu-chung.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, when the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government was established in July, the Chief Executive of the SAR, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, announced the setting up of an Elderly Commission. The Commission will make proposals to the SAR Government on the formulation of comprehensive elderly policies, as well as, for instance, how to improve, monitor and implement various elderly services, as well as allocating resources.

After the Elderly Commission was formally set up at the end of July, three plenums have been held in the past one month or so. During these three meetings, we have familiarized ourselves with the present policies and made some visits. In the general meeting of the Elderly Commission last Saturday, we announced a decision and two future tasks. Our decision was that all members of the Commission agreed unanimously to increasing the CSSA payments for the elderly. While I believe the Government will take this decision into serious consideration, the specific amount is to be announced by Mr TUNG Chee-hwa in his policy address. As for the details in this aspect, the Health and Welfare Bureau should be responsible to give a reply.

With regard to the two tasks, after considering the present needs of the elderly, we found that two issues were particularly urgent. We have set up an ad hoc committee on housing and residential care to solve the elderly's problems with respect to housing and residential care. I hope this ad hoc committee can report to the Elderly Commission in six months' time.

The second task is related to the very popular Senior Citizen Card scheme. Many elderly citizens have expressed their opinions on the service and since it has been implemented for three years, it is now the right time to conduct a review in order to put the scheme into more extensive and substantial use. We hope the implementation of the Senior Citizen Card scheme can promote the community's respect, attention and care for the elderly.

The needs of the elderly are manifold and some of the needs are more urgent and important than the others. When the elderly lack money, their most urgent need is of course money in order to enable them to survive and so they need CSSA. If they do not have a place to live or are waiting for public housing, it will of course be most crucial for them to be allocated a housing unit, no matter it is a small public housing unit or a "sheltered housing for the elderly" unit. What they hope is to find a satisfactory dwelling place as soon as possible. As for those elderly people who are in need of care, what they are waiting for is a place in a home for the elderly or a care and attention home. For those elderly who frequently fall sick, they will need out-patient services or health centres. They will also hope that the hospital can provide service to take better care of them. For the elderly who are physically fit, they will need more recreation and social activities to enrich their lives. Therefore, the needs of the elderly are actually very diverse. Apart from money and services, they also hope that they can have someone to talk to in order to fulfill their psychological needs.

Today, Mr WONG Siu-yee's motion has triggered off discussions in this Council as well as among members of the community. I think this is good. I also appreciate that, through discussions, more and more people will care about the elderly problems and services. One of the characteristics of Mr WONG's proposal is that it is comparatively extensive and comprehensive. For instance, it is proposed that 25 000 sq ft of land should be used for constructing the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". Moreover, the Paradise will provide not only elderly services, but also a day nursery service, a study room and a reading room. The services provided are so comprehensive that babies, small children, primary school students, secondary school students and elderly persons are all covered. Another characteristic of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is that it will be managed by the elderly themselves and there is no need to hire professionals. Of course, everybody thinks that it will be fantastic if the proposal can be put into practice.

Just now, some Members questioned the feasibility of this plan in their speeches. There is of course nothing in the world that is absolutely infeasible. Rather, the question should be to what extent can we achieve it and what our target is. As for the present proposal, several kinds of service centres presently funded by the Government have actually originated from similar concepts. The examples are the multi-service centre for the elderly, the elderly community centre and the health centre. The Elderly Commission will in future conduct a comprehensive study on these centres to determine how best to improve various services, how to avoid overlapping of services and how to give full play to effectiveness. These will all be discussed and studied by the Elderly Commission in future. We welcome the continued contribution of views from Members as a support for our effort.

Since the Elderly Commission has not yet discussed the relevant issues, as Chairman of the Commission, I do not intend to vote on the motion at this stage. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I would like to express some personal views on today's motion.

First of all, I would to talk about the focus and the approach with which we should tackle the elderly problem. I feel that, in the present circumstances of Hong Kong, we should set our eyes on providing help to the needy so as to free the elderly from worries because, in a society like Hong Kong, some people may basically be living in a state like hell and nobody gives them a helping hand. What they need is not the setting up of a "Senior Citizen's Paradise" which seeks only to gilt the lily.

I am worried that the question of the motion debate today may make members of the public misunderstand that this Council is turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to the elderly problem. At present, the elderly problem needs to be tackled urgently in three aspects. First, the housing problem. We have contacted a lot of elderly people and found that those who were waiting for public housing were hoping desperately for an early allocation of a housing unit. Therefore, the Government should try its best to provide them with satisfactory accommodation as soon as possible. Those who are already living in public housing do not necessarily fare better since many of them have to share a unit with others and rows often occur. They suffer every single day they live there, so this is another problem that has to be tackled. To remove their pain, we need to study how to improve the system. Second, the living expenses of the elderly. This involves the CSSA payment and the whole system itself. Third, the medical and health problems of the elderly. Instead of setting up a "Senior Citizen's Paradise", we should focus ourselves on ameliorating their sufferings.

The second issue is about priority. Many members of the community have criticized lately that the agenda of the Elderly Commission does not have a clear overall direction. So here I would like to urge the Elderly Commission to study how to solve the elderly problem with a holistic approach and draw up an agenda for discussion so as to tackle the problem from a more macroscopic angle. I hope the Commission will announce its agenda as soon as possible so that Hong Kong people, especially the various concern groups, can put forward their views. We may then muster our forces and deal with the problem from a macroscopic angle so as to make the elderly services truly meet the needs of our elderly citizens. If we look at the issue in terms of priorities the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" will definitely not occupy a very high position. I will condemn the Elderly Commission if it discusses the proposal of "Senior Citizen's Paradise" next month because this is simply putting the cart before the horse.

With regard to the discussion today, the only merit I see in the motion is that it has done two things for the existing services provided by elderly centres. Firstly, it renames all elderly centres as "Senior Citizen's Paradises". Secondly, it has taken account of the inadequacy of the existing services provided by elderly centres, such as how to encourage more elderly people to patronize these centres, and how best to enhance the quality of service.

I have studied social work before and have contacted numerous social workers. In their opinion, this proposal is obviously off the point and fails to provide a solution by focusing on the existing elderly services and the needs of the elderly. Of course, we will not object to things that gilt the lily, but we wish that things can move in a more correct direction. I therefore hope that the Government, when it replies later, can set its priority in respect of Hong Kong's elderly services. The debate today may have let us air our own views only instead of debating on elderly services in depth. I find it extremely regrettable that we have missed a good opportunity.

Mr Deputy, I so submit.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare. Please speak and make a counter-offer as some Members asked you to do so.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, first of all, I would like to thank the Honourable WONG Siu-yee for moving the motion debate today.

Elderly service has always been one of the key tasks for the Government. In his Inaugural Speech, the Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, stated that the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government would formulate a comprehensive elderly policy with the goal of providing the elderly with "a sense of security, a sense of belonging and a feeling of health and worthiness".

The notion behind the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposed by Mr WONG is actually the same as that of the existing policies and objectives of the Government. Mr WONG's proposal suggests to provide recreational activities, nutritional meals, medical and health care for the elderly and, at the same time, give them the opportunity to give play to their abilities and continue to serve society. These are very similar to what the Government has been striving to do in its endeavour to achieve the goals of giving the elderly "a sense of belonging" and "a feeling of health and worthiness".

For many years, the Government has been providing the elderly with various community support services, including social centres for the elderly, day care centres for the elderly, multi-service centres for the elderly, home help service, elderly community network schemes and so on. The aims of these different services are to help the elderly enjoy their golden age at home and to provide support for the family members who take care of them so that the elderly will have "a sense of belonging".

At present, Hong Kong has a total of 198 social centres for the elderly, which provide services on a neighbourhood level and open up more opportunities for the elderly to take part in social and recreational activities. From time to time, these elderly centres offer courses of different interests, such as Tai Chi and calligraphy, as well as organizing health lectures and body check-ups for the elderly. Those elderly people who are more active can take part in outdoor activities such as picnic and holiday camps arranged by the centres. For example, the Cheung Muk Tau Holiday Centre for the Elderly at Sai Kung is specially provided for the elderly.

Other than these elderly centres, there are altogether 27 multi-service centres for the elderly in Hong Kong providing a series of community support services for the elderly to assist them to continue living in the community. These services include home help, community education, personal counselling, social and recreational activities and so on. The centres also provide such facilities as laundry, showers and canteens to cater for the elderly in need. Similarly, the social centres for the elderly and the multi-service centres for the elderly are provided with restrooms, drinks bar, television, hi-fi, books, newspapers, publications and gymnastic equipments so as to facilitate the elderly to spend their leisure meaningfully.

In the aspect of medical and health care, we firmly believe in the theories of "prevention is better than cure" and "a disease should be cured at its earliest stage". The Department of Health has organized a multitude of health education programmes to encourage the public to prevent and reduce the chances of contracting diseases by leading a healthy lifestyle and conducting regular body check-ups. For the elderly, preventive efforts are particularly important.

Currently, the Department of Health has a total of seven elderly health centres providing medical care for the elderly. Every year, the centres will arrange doctors to conduct body check-ups and health assessments for elderly members. The medical staff will then follow up with further examinations according to individual needs to provide personal health guidance or refer the elderly in need to other services. The centres will also arrange for lectures on health in order to enhance the basic health knowledge of the elderly, and organize mutual help groups of various natures, such as quit smoking classes, weight losing classes and so on, to enable the elderly to support and encourage one another.

As for the out-patient service, the Department of Health also offers every convenience to the elderly. In 1996-97, the ratio of elderly priority chips distributed in the Government's general out-patient clinics was increased from 11% to the present 20%. To cope with the needs of the elderly, we have planned to raise this ratio gradually to 25% this year. In the case of a chronically ill patient, he can also make use of the appointment service for follow-up without the need to queue up. Patients on appointment will be met by the doctor in 30 minutes if he turns up for follow-up at the appointed time.

Some members of the community wrongly see the elderly as a group who needs help and regard them as an object of service only. I believe such a way of thinking is outdated. The elderly may not be as fit as young people physically, but they have rich experiences of life and they can keep on serving society to experience "a feeling of health and worthiness" while enjoying their retirement lives. Their services can bring great satisfaction to them and are helpful to both their mental and physical health.

In view of this, the Government has been vigourously promoting the elderly voluntary worker service in recent years. In 1995, the Social Welfare Department launched an elderly voluntary worker pilot scheme in eight multi-service centres for the elderly. After training, the elderly will join teams of social workers and take part in services such as visit and escort. They will also assist in organizing recreational activities and serve people of different ages. The elderly voluntary workers will also use the telephone to keep in touch with the elderly who have special needs so as to give them support.

In July this year, the Government established an Elderly Commission to advise on the formulation of various policies such as elderly housing, financial protection, medical and health care, recreational activities and so on. The Honourable TAM Yiu-chung has made a brief account on the Commission's recent work a moment ago, so I will not repeat it here.

Lastly, Mr Deputy, I would like to express my gratitude to Honourable Members who have expressed their opinions today. They have not only put forward their views on the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" proposal, but also offered valuable opinions concerning other issues pertaining to elderly services. We will continue to aim at providing the elderly with "a sense of security, a sense of belonging and a feeling of health and worthiness", and to strive to improve various elderly services so that they will move forward with time.

Of course, the proposal of setting up the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" and its concrete arrangements have to be studied in detail before we can decide whether or not the proposal is feasible. However, just as I said at the beginning, the notion behind the proposal, which include improving elderly services and assisting the elderly to play an active role in society, is actually the same goal which the Government has been working towards for years. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Siu-yee, you are now entitled to reply and you have three minutes 15 seconds out of your original 15 minutes.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am actually speaking with a heavy heart at the moment. While the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government has huge reserves of over $400 billion, just now many Members still count over and over again to see whether the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is feasible, whether we have enough money and whether the distribution of resources is reasonable. Sometimes I really feel ashamed for our SAR Government or the former Government because its Councillors always have to count. We are not talking about a lot of money. We are talking about a quality service. But then many people question whether we are able to do it. My heart is very heavy because this is completely incompatible with the assets we possess.

There are 800 000-odd elderly people over the age of 60 in Hong Kong. Are we only capable of taking care of 10% of these 800 000-odd elderly people in terms of their CSSA payment and their housing problems? I have never objected to an increase in CSSA payment. Neither have I objected to giving more assistance to people in need. But at the same time, we must take into account the spiritual needs of the more than 800 000 elderly people and give them more care and attention. This is my first response.

As regards whether there is an overlapping of resources, what are the differences between the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" and the existing elderly centres and elderly services? I think there are great differences between them on two major counts. The first one is the proposal of employing elderly people to serve other elderly people. An article in the newspaper mentioned today: "Japan will face an elderly crisis next century and expenditure on welfare will soar". There is a sentence in the article that is worthy of our reference: "It seems that any new solution cannot be dissociated from employing senior citizens." This is a worldwide trend and I hope Members can understand that we have to let the elderly serve the elderly. To hire retired people who are over the age of 60 but with professional skills to serve society is exactly our future goal. This is my second response.

With regard to the area of land required, just now Members mentioned the sizes of elderly centres and asked if their sizes could be increased and if their scopes of service could be expanded. May I ask how the scope of service of an elderly centre can be expanded if it measures only 2 000 sq ft? How can it be expanded? Only 2 000 sq ft is available. If we propose to rent two more centres, which means two times 198, there will be more than 300 centres. But what we are talking about is 18 such centres, not 396, and definitely not 500 or 600. Members may have misunderstood. I feel that the existing elderly centres and the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" are complementing instead of counteracting each other. I am not saying that we have to do without the elderly centres after setting up the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". Neither am I saying that the CSSA shall be abolished after setting up the "Senior Citizen's Paradise". Both of them are complementary to one another and are not mutually exclusive. If Members think that when we have this we will be deprived of that, I will feel really sad and downhearted.

As we all know, the Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, is deeply concerned for senior citizens. Upon his suggestion, the Elderly Commission was established with Mr TAM Yiu-chung as Chairman and the Commission will be responsible for formulating plans for elderly care in Hong Kong. The setting up of the "Senior Citizen's Paradise" is actually one of the components of the whole set of elderly services ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, your three minutes 15 seconds is over.

I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by WONG Siu-yee be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. The "ayes" have it.

SUPERVISING HONG KONG RAILWAYS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second motion: Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion as set out on the Agenda.

The motion today is on supervising Hong Kong railways. Some people say that the supervision of railways is an old issue and therefore they would still treat it in an old perspective. But in my opinion, if some Members keep on raising this question for debate every year, this precisely shows that this issue is of public concern. It is only up till now, there is no practical and forward-looking solution available for this issue. We must review and evaluate this old issue under a new situation. I propose that a statutory organization, which may be named the Railway Authority, should be set up to co-ordinate the future railway development of Hong Kong. This does not imply however that I am criticizing the board of directors or any staff of the two railway companies. On the contrary, I think their performance is excellent in the daily operation of Hong Kong railways. But under the new situation, we cannot but deliberate on our future direction.

Twenty years ago, we studied the issue of mass transit. Today, we have to examine the issue of a mass transit network instead. The further development of Hong Kong, further growth in our population, further development of land and further construction of housing units will all depend on whether or not we have an integrated mass transit network. In fact, the "Railway Development Strategy" published by the Transport Branch in 1994 pointed out that Hong Kong would have 10 new railways coming into existence in different decades and some of these railway projects were extremely urgent. As far as the present development of the mass transit network is concerned, there is no co-ordination between the two railway companies and they are in fact facing a competitive situation. I can cite an example. Ten years ago, the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation (KCRC) conceived an extension from the Hunghom Terminal to Hong Kong Island. That idea would of course be beneficial to the New Territories residents. However, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) had its own thinking whereas the Government commissioned its own consultancy to conduct a study. Finally, the proposal was shelved, resulting in a serious wastage of resources. Moreover, the matter was dragged on and on. Of course, in the whole process, the happiest party was the consultancy which kept on conducting studies and charging exorbitant fees. Some people said that the Transport Bureau should be able to take up this role. I am not going to object to this argument, but whether or not it can cope with it is another matter. The manpower of the Transport Bureau and other government departments is fundamentally not capable of acting as a co-ordinator for these 10 railways in the next decade. In my opinion, the Secretary for Transport's refusal to admit this fact frankly will only keep on delaying the development of Hong Kong's mass transit network. With the two railway companies competing with each other rather than co-ordination, the future development of Hong Kong will be hindered. The Transport Bureau should, therefore, think twice about it.

The development of the mass transit network will definitely involve the determination of the fare pricing systems. The unreasonable fare increases determined by the two railway companies every year will definitely attract strong public response. In spite of having a huge surplus, the KCRC still raised its fares this year. For two consecutive years, it proposed that the fare increases for some busy stations should be set above the inflation rate. In response to my criticism that it was trying to victimize the passengers of these stations, the KCRC has eventually frozen the fares. To urge the two railway companies to enhance their transparency and accountability is the consensus of today's motion and all of its amendments. In the long run, if a number of railway network systems should surface in Hong Kong, the entire mode of fare pricing and ticketing systems should be reviewed and co-ordinated as soon as possible.

Madam President, in Hong Kong's history, when our housing development needed co-ordination, we set up the Housing Authority; when the hospital affairs needed co-ordination, we put the Hospital Authority in place; when the new airport was under preparation, we set the Airport Authority in motion. So when the railway business is facing a greater leap forward, does my proposal not merit the joint deliberation of the Government and Honourable colleagues?

The cleverest invention of the modern society is shareholding, narrowing the gap between people's wealth in financial terms. At the same time, the modern society has also invented democracy to narrow the gap between people's power politically. Now the two railway companies are wholly owned by the Government. As the sole shareholder, the Government was at its wits' end when the KCRC handed out a golden handshake to its retiring chairman in 1989. And recently, wastage resulting from the hiring of consultancy on the West Rail shows that the Government is weak in monitoring the company. Similarly the Government often says that the public can participate in monitoring the operation of the two railways through different channels such as the liaison group and afternoon tea gatherings. But in the absence of a system and with severe insufficiency of information, the so-called "public participation" appears to be outshone by the huge supporting system of the two railway companies. The previous railways' operation can fully reflect that the Government is powerless though it is a shareholder and the public have no rights though they are allowed to participate.

In fact, the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU's proposal does not carry anything substantial. She purely urges the Government to conduct a review. I believe the Secretary for Transport will be glad to accept this amendment because he will tell us that a review will be conducted every year. In fact, Mrs Miriam LAU made the same appeal in the Legislative Council in 1993 and yet the Government was still marking time at the same spot over the past few years. The Honourable CHEUNG Hon-chung, however has an exceedingly high expectation of the role played by the Transport Advisory Committee (TAC). Even though its terms of reference can be expanded, it is still unable to break away from the passive consultative role. Traditionally, hundreds of consultative committees in Hong Kong have been operating in the form of "letting the administration absorb politics", as some scholars call it. But with the development of our political system and the birth of party politics, this old model has failed in meeting the needs of the public. What the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi advocates is just the opposite. He advocates a model in which the politics command the administration. But in light of the political environment of Hong Kong in the next decade, I am doubtful whether this modus operandi is suitable for Hong Kong's situation. What I am now proposing is nothing new. At different times, Hong Kong will set up governing bodies in different spheres. Since the railways are now poised to develop with leaps and bounds, it is, therefore, timely to set up a governing body.

In fact, the Association of Engineers in Society (of which Dr the Honourable Raymond HO is a member) and the One Country Two Systems Economic Research Institute to which the Honourable LEUNG Chun-ying belongs, have also respectively announced similar proposals before. In my opinion, the ideal modus operandi of these governing bodies should neither be that of "letting the administration absorb the politics" nor "letting the politics command the administration". Instead, it should be operated under consensus administration, which is urgently needed by Hong Kong. The so-called consensus administration means within a specialized scope, representatives of various interests make rational studies and judgements on the basis that each representative can fully grasp the information on an equal basis so as to come up with a reasonable proposal. In Hong Kong, the past practice of dealing with labour policies and the modus operandi of the Housing Authority can be said to be similar to this mode. I believe the Government, on the basis of the experience it gained over the past few years, should have come to a conclusion that the more open and transparent it deals with public affairs, the easier it will be for the Government to gain understanding and rational support. So consensus administration has in fact existed in the operation of the Government.

Madam President, some colleagues might not understand my thinking before this debate. But I have just made a rather clear explanation. Some colleagues have compared my motion with some of the motions moved in the former Legislative Council. But I hope Honourable colleagues can understand the contents and the rationale of my motion and my views. I have made reference to the speeches delivered in motion debates in the Legislative Council over the past few years and read the Secretariat's reports on related experiences of overseas countries. I have also scrutinized the ordinances governing a number of authorities and looked at Hong Kong's political situation and the railway development, both at present and in the future. I finally arrive at a solution and that is what I propose in my motion.

I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

Mr LAU KONG-WAH moved the following motion:

"That as the railways in Hong Kong will soon launch vast development projects, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously set up an independent statutory organization tasked with the responsibility of co-ordinating and regulating each development projects as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways; and also requests the two railway companies to increase their transparency and accountability, so as to attain the targets of meeting public's interests and adhering to the principle of prudent commercial operations."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That as the railways in Hong Kong will soon launch vast development projects, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously set up an independent statutory organization tasked with the responsibility of co-ordinating and regulating each development project as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways; and also requests the two railway companies to increase their transparency and accountability, so as to attain the targets of meeting public's interests and adhering to the principle of prudent commercial operations.

Members have been informed by circular on 29 August that Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung and Mr CHAN Choi-hi have separately given notices to move amendments to this motion. I propose to have the motion and the three amendments debated together in a joint debate.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok, is it a point of order?

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I have tried to move an amendment to another amendment but the President has ruled it out of order. I wonder if you could formally announce the main reason behind your ruling. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, according to Rule 44 of the Rules of Procedure, the President's decision on a point of order shall be final. As Members have received a copy of my letter to Dr LAW Cheung-kwok this morning explaining why I have disallowed Dr LAW Cheung-kwok's amendment, there is no point for me to explain my ruling in this meeting. However, for the benefit of the public, I would like to give a brief explanation here in the hope that the public can understand it.

First of all, we have precedents in Council that if an amendment goes beyond the scope of the original motion and expands the question on the original motion, it will be ruled out of order. There were a lot of such precedents in the era of the former Legislative Council where amendments were disallowed for this reason. Dr LAW Cheung-kwok's amendment sought to expand the scope of the original motion to include all public transport operators and all modes of public transport. However, the original motion of Mr LAU Kong-wah and the amendment of Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung are clearly referring to the railways and the railway companies. Under such circumstances, I disallowed Dr LAW Cheung-kwok's amendment in accordance with the Rules of Procedure. However, if Dr LAW or other Members have any comments on this matter or on my ruling in future, we can have a discussion outside the Chamber. In this Council, my ruling is final. In the course of a debate, Members should not comment on a ruling made by the President. This is also the usual parliamentary practice of the West.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Council shall now debate the motion and the three amendments together in a joint debate. I will call upon Mrs Miriam LAU to speak first, to be followed by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung and Mr CHAN Choi-hi, but no amendments are to be moved at this stage. Members may then express their views on the main motion as well as on the amendments to the motion. Mrs Miriam LAU.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, the supervision of the two railway companies is not a new topic. To safeguard people's livelihood, many Members have, in past occasions, incessantly proposed to supervise the two railway companies and conducted a lot of debates, the last one being only three months ago. At that time, two Members' Bills were proposed, seeking to empower the Legislative Council to have a say in determining fares for the three railways. Because of the far-reaching impact of these two Members' Bills, the former Legislative Council set up a Bills Committee and met the representatives of the two railway companies, a number of experienced people in railway operation as well as representatives of the banking sector and credit rating agencies. The Research and Library Division of the Secretariat also conducted a study on the credit rating and supervisory system related to mass transit. For the first time, the Panel on Transport even sent a delegation to overseas countries for inspection.

The former Legislative Council spent almost a year's time to study the issue. With full information and analysis, Members held a debate on the two Members' Bills on 28 May this year. Finally, the majority of Members voted against giving the Legislative Council the power to adjust railway fares. The reasons for Members' objections were varied but I think two points were in common. Firstly, overseas experiences warned us that it was not suitable for the Government or the legislative assembly to determine or interfere in railway fares; secondly, most Members agreed that the performance of local railways was good and the form of supervision should not be altered indiscriminately.

Frankly speaking, overseas experiences are actually a painful lesson and they have been incorporated in the Report of the Delegation to Study Mass Transit Systems in Overseas Cities compiled by the Panel on Transport. This report, coupled with many other related study reports, may be as thick as one or two feet. If Mr CHAN Choi-hi has not read these reports, I shall be pleased to arrange to send him one set of the reports. I am sure that Mr CHAN, after reading the reports, will consider withdrawing the second half of his amendment to the motion and will not repeat the old arguments of the Democratic Party.

Of course, new people work with a new style. Members of the Provisional Legislative Council are free to express their views on how to supervise the railways. But I think Members, no matter they were ex-Members, incumbent Members, or Members-to-be, must not overlook some basic information and fundamental problems.

In the wake of the formulation of the Railway Development Strategy by the Government, railway development in Hong Kong has entered a new era. In the coming years, the Airport Railway, the Lantau Line, the Tseung Kwan O Extension, the West Rail and the Ma On Shan Rail Link will be completed one after another. Undoubtedly, the development of these giant railway projects needs special planning and co-ordination to ensure that the various projects will be able to cope with one another, as well as enabling the entire railway network, in terms of the alignment and connection, to meet the needs of passengers. Besides, the fare pricing and ticketing systems of each of the railways need to be well planned and co-ordinated to facilitate passengers to surf among different railway systems. The fare bases of different railway systems should also be co-ordinated to ensure that passengers are fairly and reasonably charged.

Originally, the planning and co-ordination of the railway development falls within the terms of reference and ambit of the Transport Bureau. But Mr LAU Kong-wah proposes that the Government's power and responsibility should be transferred to an independent statutory body. In such case, does it mean that the Government can be entirely freed from its responsibility for railway development? Furthermore, will this independent statutory body be given sufficient resources to discharge its duties? If not, will our situation be like that of the Public Transport Bureau of Singapore? I will talk about the situation of Singapore later. The Government is currently responsible for the planning and co-ordination of the two railway companies, which are also subject to the supervision of the Government, the TAC and the three tiers of Government. If an independent statutory body is set up to take up the co-ordinating and supervisory duties, it will obviously lead to overlapping of responsibilities. If Members or the public feel dissatisfied with this independent statutory body, does it mean that another super independent statutory body should be set up on top of the former?

Apparently, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's proposal seems to have avoided an overlapping of responsibilities. He urges to expand the composition and terms of reference of the TAC. But how are we going to expand it? According to the Official Record of Proceedings of the Legislative Council Sitting held on 28 May, Mr CHEUNG highly recommended the Public Transport Bureau of Singapore. Mr CHEUNG clearly knew that the Public Transport Bureau of Singapore was responsible for monitoring the fares and services of all public transport in Singapore. As the nature of its work is similar to that of the Transport Bureau of Hong Kong, it should require huge resources. But the staff of its Secretariat, including the operator, comprises six persons only. Why is there such a small number of people? The reason is that the Government's influence behind the scene was in fact very strong. As far as I know, a great majority of fare adjustments are referred to the Public Transport Bureau after negotiations have properly been conducted between the Government and the operators. Do we want to introduce this model into Hong Kong? Will this model lead to a situation in which the Government controls the fare increases of all public transport but is not required to be accountable to the public (because the TAC will act as its shield)? More importantly, according to what Mr CHEUNG's proposal, it seems that the TAC will be converted from an expert consultative body to a body with substantive powers. If Mr CHEUNG does not agree with what I said, he can refer back to what he said on 28 May. On that occasion, he proposed to expand the existing terms of reference of the TAC to enable it to gain new powers on top of its original terms of reference, so as to examine the fare adjustments made and the quality of service determined by various public transports, as well as having a final decision concerning the handling of complaints. This is what Mr CHEUNG said at that time. So if what Mr CHEUNG proposed was an organization having the above-mentioned characteristics, then what is the difference between his proposal and Mr LAU Kong-wah's proposed independent statutory body?

Personally speaking, I think there is no great difference between the organizations proposed by the three Members because they will all have a decision-making power. Can they ensure that the decisions made by members of these organizations will be free from political influence? Can they ensure that these organizations will not adversely affect the credit rating of the two railway companies?

Members of the former Legislative Council opposed hijacking the supervision of the two railway companies to the Legislative Council because they understood that if the autonomy of the railway companies were interfered with, it would affect not only the performance of the railways, but also exert a far-reaching impact on railway development. So whatever committee or bureau is going to be formed, we have to avoid undermining the credit rating of the two railway companies and weakening their borrowing ability for it will in turn affect any improvement to the services of the three railways and jeopardize the future development of railways.

At the present stage, Madam President, I think the Government should conduct an overall review to consider how to enhance the supervisory function both within and outside the Government with respect to the needs of the future development of railways. It should then carry out an in-depth study on the impact and feasibility of Members' proposals before submitting the findings of the review and concrete proposals to the Panel on Transport of this Council for detailed discussion. It will not be too late for Members to make a decision then. I earnestly urge Members not to make changes just for the sake of change and convert Hong Kong's success story into a lesson of failure.

Madam President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, for many of my friends who have emigrated overseas, they will come back to Hong Kong every few years and each time they will find the place changed. Very often, they even get lost in the new transport network in Hong Kong. Indeed, Hong Kong is a dynamic and constantly progressing international metropolitan in the midst of transformation. When comparing Hong Kong with foreign cities which do not change the least bit for a decade, I can understand why my friends have such a feeling.

The fruit borne by Hong Kong as a result of its continuous advancement can be attributed essentially to the fact that we have constantly made investment and improvement to tie in with our transport network that changes with time. In face of the challenges of the 21st century and increasing international competition, we need to follow our established policy of continuing to invest in infrastructure in order to maintain our competitive edge.

Madam President, few of the various advanced regions in the world will, like Hong Kong, invest resources in such a huge amount in the development of infrastructure. Apart from the new airport which is near completion and its associated road network, the Route 3 will be commissioned next year. In the next decade, we expect to see the construction of the West Rail and the MTR extensions which include the Tseung Kwan O Extension, an extension from Hung Hom to Central Kowloon, West Hong Kong Island MTR Line and South Hong Kong Island MTR Line as well as a cross harbour extension. In addition, the Ma On Shan Rail Link will also be built successively. As far as roads are concerned, a new expressway from Sha Tin to West Kowloon and a cross-border joint network such as the Zhuhai Bridge will also be constructed. All these transport networks and infrastructure have tapped a lot of resources. So in the course of construction, we have to prevent our resources from being wasted and, at the same time, prevent any delay. The Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) has come to the view that the Government should play a more important role in planning and co-ordinating the development of the various projects.

Madam President, in the past when the West Rail project was under development, the inadequacies of the Administration in planning, co-ordination and supervision were exposed. Apart from leading to possible delays of the abovementioned rail projects, such inadequacies will also lead to a huge wastage of resources. The Administration's present arrangement is to commission the KCRC to conduct a feasibility and technical study on the development of the West Rail for the Administration's examination. Since the KCRC is a commercial organization, the Government has, on numerous occasions, found it difficult to supervise the company when it hired consultancy to conduct railway studies. Examples are the payment of unreasonable consultancy fees, ambiguity in consultancy items and so on. All these were called into question by members of the community. At the same time, an internal framework of the KCRC responsible for developing the West Rail is being criticized as over-lapping with the existing framework of the KCRC. Although the KCRC is a commercial organization, it is wholly-owned by the Government. Any economic losses it incurs will be passed onto every member of the public. The staff deployment and changes in the framework of the KCRC have clearly illustrated the abovementioned mistakes.

Upon the completion of all the consultancy reports by the KCRC, Madam President, the Government will spend tens of millions of dollars to hire consultants to examine the reports. Will the Government hire consultants to examine the reports again? This is like the left hand not trusting the right hand, and this will lead to serious wastage. This mechanism will only waste social resources and the Administration should conduct a review on this as soon as possible.

In fact, the Government can hire consultants to study the various railway development projects and, after making a decision, hand over the projects to appropriate companies for construction and operation. This will be more efficient and will save resources. Of course, the construction of railways involves an extensive scope of work such as land resumption, environmental impact assessment, project planning and so on. In this connection, we can consider setting up an inter-departmental organization, headed by the Transport Bureau, to be responsible for the planning, co-ordination and supervision of various projects. It is just like, after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government, we have an inter-departmental working group headed by the Financial Secretary to deal with housing problems. Similarly, we can adopt the same method to deal with problems related to railway development.

Madam President, we have already completed the electrification of the Kowloon-Canton Railway and constructed the MTR system. The local engineering sector should have accumulated a lot of skills and experiences. In future, such experiences should be able to play a very important role in the development of various railway projects in Hong Kong. It is a pity that in the past we could not do so. But at present, we rely too much on imported foreign skills for the future development of various railway projects. If, in future railway developments, we can deliberately borrow from foreign experiences, we can "kill two birds with one stone". In addition to having advanced railway systems, we can also acquire the construction skills in building railway systems. This will not only greatly enhance the competitive edge of Hong Kong's engineering sector in the international arena, but also help the modernization of China's railways.

Madam President, Mr LAU Kong-wah's original motion touches on the ticketing systems and the issues of fares. The DAB thinks that there is a need to strengthen the work of the existing railway systems in these two aspects. In particular, the two railway companies are not required to seek the Administration's approval in raising fares and there is no supervisory mechanism at all. Although the two railway corporations did conduct consultations and act with constraint in raising their fares, they should not be tolerated to act differently from other public organizations. As a certain degree of supervision is necessary, the DAB proposes to expand the composition and terms of reference of the TAC so as to confer the Committee with a statutory status and respective powers to supervise the service and ticketing systems of various railways and examine their fares.

Madam President, now I would focus on commenting on Mr LAU Kong-wah's original motion and the various amendments. The original motion and all of its amendments share a common goal, that is, to strengthen the planning, co-ordination and supervision of the railway projects. The only difference lies in how to achieve these goals. Both the original motion and Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment urge for the establishment of a statutory body to achieve these goals, while Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment asks for only a review on how to achieve these goals. We can neither support the original motion nor the amendments proposed by Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr CHAN Choi-hi because we do not agree to the establishment of a statutory body to deal with the related matters. Too many statutory bodies will weaken the powers and responsibilities of the Government and incapacitate its co-ordinating function. Nor can we support Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment because it lacks direction.

In contrast, the DAB's amendment demands the Government to review the various mechanisms related to the planning, co-ordination and supervision of the railways. But the exact mechanisms that should be adopted will depend on the results of the review.

Madam President, apart from planning and co-ordinating various railway projects, the original motion demands supervision on the ticketing systems and fare pricing of various railways as well. Mr LAU Kong-wah's request for the setting up of a statutory body to achieve the above goals will in fact only complicate the problem. The planning and co-ordination of various railway development projects are a technical and short-term work while the supervision of the fares of various railway systems is a long-term effort. To mix the two mechanisms and to deal with them jointly will only complicate the matter. It is also unrealistic to do so.

Madam President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, Hong Kong's future transport network will, to a very great extent, rely on the development of railways. Railways now planned to be built include the West Rail which will cost more than $70 billion, the Ma On Shan Rail Link, the Tseung Kwan O Extension, the MTR extension from Diamond Hill to Hung Hom, as well as the new Island Line of the MTR. Construction of these railways are now underway one after another. Upon the completion of these projects, the remote areas will become prosperous and the journey time taken by commuters will be shortened. Also, new towns which were hardly accessible in the past will be linked up with urban areas. Just like the two major veins in a human body, these rail lines will certainly play a crucial role in the overall urban and economic development of Hong Kong. In terms of scale and financial commitments, these infrastructures are comparable to the Airport Core Programme Projects.

In building these giant mass transit systems, I think it is imperative to put in place an independent and representative monitoring organ to effectively control expenditure, minimize wastage and supervise the progress of works. As most of these projects cost tens of billions of dollars, they will have a bearing on the future fares of the railways. Therefore, the existing fare monitoring system is obviously incompatible with our future needs.

At present, the railway system in Hong Kong is mainly controlled by the KCRC and the MTRC. Although both corporations are quasi-government in nature and members of the Board of Directors are appointed by the Government, they actually operate like an "independent empire", giving people the impression that there is "no overlord" at all. As these two railway companies are not subject to external supervision, the public has no means of knowing how they operate as well as their cost-effectiveness. Without public monitoring, we are worried that the future mammoth railway projects may incur over-spending or wastage of resources.

Let me cite the Northwest New Territories Railway as an example. Last year, the KCRC's award of consultancy contracts without authorization has attracted much criticism from the public. As the construction of the railway is for the convenience sake of the public and the construction costs will be advanced by the Government or underwritten by syndicate loans the interest and repayment of which will be serviced by fare income in future, the public should have the right to monitor the construction of the railway to see if it is cost-effective. Nevertheless, the Board of Directors has so far done nothing in this respect and the public is playing a minimal role in monitoring.

As far as we know, the construction costs of the Northwest Railway alone well exceed $70 billion. Perhaps the total cost will even be higher than the cost of the Airport Core Programme Projects. To say it in a more appealing manner, the future railway project is believed to be another "rose garden". If we fail to control the costs and allow them to rise, who is going to pay for the huge interest of the loans? Obviously the answer is the future passengers. For the Airport Railway which will be commissioned next year, for example, it is estimated that the fares for a trip from Central to Tung Chung will be extremely high. Some people reckon that a family of four going to the airport to see somebody off may have to pay nearly $1,000 for a round trip.

If the construction costs of the future railway projects run out of control, the public will definitely need to pay more for travelling expenses. Let us imagine, the public may need to go to the airport only once in a while. But the railways will play an important role in the daily lives of the residents in Ma On Shan and Tseung Kwan O. Are we going to ask them to pay exorbitant fares or not? It is extremely unfair to them.

To prevent this, it is imperative for the Government to set up an independent and representative statutory organization (which should include elected members) to monitor the operation of the KCRC and the MTRC instead of allowing the two companies to decide the annual fare adjustments by themselves. Although the fare adjustments of the two companies are in tune with the inflation rate, there is no guarantee that the future construction costs will not be passed onto the general public. At present, the public basically has no means of influencing the decisions on fare increases and there is no mechanism whatsoever to prevent unreasonable fare increases that may possibly occur. So the only best way is to require that fare increases must be approved by the legislature. Since the legislature is returned by election, it is representative and acceptable to the public. It can naturally balance various factors and maintain fare increases at a reasonable level. For this reason, I call upon the Government to amend the legislation stipulating that the KCRC and the MTRC have to seek the legislature's approval before increasing fares. Another significance of this requirement is that it can increase the transparency and accountability of the two railway companies so that the public will understand why fares have to be increased. At the same time, the cost effectiveness of the railway companies will be exposed through this monitoring procedure. On the whole, we do not want to see the situation in which there is "no overlord" again.

Regarding the earlier comment made by Mr LAU Kong-wah that "politics will command the administration". Actually, I did not mean commanding the administration. The most important point is that the public should have the right to monitor. If the public has such a right, a mechanism should be put in place. Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung and I seemed to have no objection to the setting up of an independent organ. Only Mrs Miriam LAU has opposed this proposal. In my opinion, Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment is too mild. On the contrary, Mr LAU Kong-wah's proposal is quite close to mine. Regarding Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's proposal to upgrade the TAC's status, I think it is inappropriate to do so because it is already a consultative body. The setting up of an independent organization is, on the contrary, the best alternative.

Regarding Mrs Miriam LAU's question as to whether I am harping the old tune of the Democratic Party again, I can definitely say "no". Now I am no longer a member of the Democratic Party. I represent the new tune of myself ─CHAN Choi-hi. In fact, there is no distinction between an old tune or a new tune so long as it is a fine tune.

With these remarks, I seek to amend Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, although my amendment was ruled out of order, to explain clearly the correct stance of the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (HKADPL) towards the supervision of railways in Hong Kong, I would like to firstly read out the specific wording of the negatived amendment. Originally, the wording of the amendment by the HKADPL is: That as the railways in Hong Kong will soon launch vast development projects, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously review, plan and co-ordinate the mechanism of each development project, and to pledge to set up a public transport management committee so as to unify the supervision of all the public transport undertakings, including the two railway companies; and to confer adequate power on this committee to the end that it can strengthen its supervision of the public transports, including the service, ticketing system and fare examination of each of the railways, and advance views on public transport policies and deal with complaints; and also requests all the public transports, including the railways, to increase their transparency and accountability, so as to attain the targets of meeting public's interests and adhering to the principle of prudent commercial operations.

We agree that Hong Kong's railways cry out for supervision. But what are the most appropriate ways to do so? I believe this should be the focus of today's debate. I think that the mere supervision of railways will not help much in solving the overall traffic problems of Hong Kong, that is, the co-ordination of the effective operation of all the public transports, the enhancement of competition and the improvement of services. Besides, it may even bring about new problems. Recently, we often hear the public criticize the Hospital Authority, the Airport Authority and the Monetary Authority for acting like an independent kingdom. The original motion moved by the Honourable LAU Kong-wah seems to think that building up another independent kingdom may solve our traffic problems. The HKADPL feels that this proposal warrants detailed deliberation.

In a debate on supervising the two railways held at the end of May in the last session of the Legislative Council, the HKADPL stated that it was very chaotic for the supervision of public transport in Hong Kong to include all the railways. It therefore proposed to set up a public transport management committee to unify the supervision of fare pricing and services of all the public transport undertakings, including the two railways. The members of this committee must be widely represented, comprising members of the three tiers of government as well as representatives of different professions, trades and various sectors of society. The committee must operate with high transparency and it must have concrete powers to make decisions. The HKADPL thinks that the setting up of this committee will render the supervision of the fares and services of the two railways and other public transports more effectively, so that the public's interests will be safeguarded. The terms of reference of the committee should also include examining fare adjustments, determining and supervising the quality and standard of services, as well as dealing with complaints. What is more, this committee should have an independent secretariat in order to ensure its independence and operational efficiency. When the HKADPL put forward this view, the Government replied clearly that it would consider setting up an independent, accountable and highly transparent public transport management committee. At the same time, it would appoint respectable and reliable public figures to take up the responsibility of examining fare rises of all public transports.

Today I want to bring up this public transport management committee concept for consideration again as one major package for strengthening the supervision of the three railways. But unfortunately, the terms of my amendment were ruled out of order by the President. However, I am glad that I still have the opportunity to formally present the main points of our amendment to Members. I hope that when Members express their views later, they will follow the concept proposed just now by the HKADPL, that is, the setting up of a public transport management committee to supervise the three railways and all the other public transports in order to fight for the best in the aspects of policy, ticketing and service.

I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, after more than two decades of rapid development, railway transportation in Hong Kong has become part of the daily lives of most Hong Kong people. While the existing MTR, KCR and Light Rail Transit have become modes of transport that are heavily relied upon by the public in general, the Airport Railway will be completed and opened in the middle of next year. In addition, because of the rapid development in the Northwest New Territories over recent years, the Northwest Railway will provide a more efficient transport network for residents in that district. In the days to come, we should continue to give priority to railway developments so as to cope with the continuous growth of traffic flow resulting from the constant growth in population. Therefore, it is imperative that we should increase the transparency and accountability of the two railway companies.

Although every year the two railway companies stress as if by prior agreement that their rate of fare increases will not be higher than the inflation rate, or that the citizens will definitely be able to afford it, the rate of increases will inevitably influence directly the daily expenses of most people, especially when the patronage of the three railways accounts for more than 30% of the total daily commuter trips in Hong Kong. It is therefore essential that the railway fares be effectively supervised by the Government. Unfortunately, according to the existing ordinances governing the two local railway companies, they have the autonomy of increasing their fares without being examined and approved by any independent body. Even the Executive Council has no direct supervisory power in this respect. What the railway companies need to do is to inform the Executive Council for record purpose only.

I think that there is a need to expand the composition and terms of reference of the TAC, that is to say, the two railway companies have to first consult the TAC on fare increase proposals. Moreover, the laws should be amended to require the two railway companies to seek the prior approval of the executive before increasing their fares.

Moreover, in view of fact that the Hong Kong railway systems will continue to carry out large-scale development projects, including the Airport Railway, the West Rail as well as the Tseung Kwan O Extension, the Ma On Shan Extension and the MTR East Kowloon new line, the Government should strengthen its co-ordination and supervision of the development of various projects and their tolling systems and make a comprehensive review so as to avoid repeating the incident that took place in 1996 in which the KCRC successfully evaded the supervision of the Government and secretly awarded a number of consultancy contracts.

Therefore, it will basically fail to bring about the desired effect by relying solely on the railway companies' boards of directors to exercise self-monitoring. It is utterly important for the Government to enhance its co-ordinating and supervisory role, so as to co-ordinate more effectively the railway systems which are already in existence and under planning, with a view to attaining the targets of meeting public's interests and adhering to the principle of prudent commercial operations. Nevertheless, I hold that the TAC should maintain its status as a consultative framework instead of a statutory body, and its members should all be independent individuals without conflicts of interests. But the transparency of the TAC can be enhanced gradually, and its representativeness expanded further.

My comments have been based on the experience I acquired as I was fortunate enough to be appointed as Chairman of the TAC. Although it was only a short term of two years, I learned profoundly about the great complexity and sensitivity of the supervision of transport systems, especially railway systems. I think that any significant changes should only be made after careful consideration.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the amendment to be moved later by Mrs Miriam LAU.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Edward HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I have to declare my interest. I am a member of the Board of Directors of the Mass Transit Railway (MTR) Corporation and I am grateful that Mr LAU Kong-wah said just now in his speech that the work of the Boards of Directors of the two railway companies were brilliant. I am really grateful for his comment.

Actually, just as many Honourable Members mentioned a moment ago, the question under debate today has been debated many times before. I have a lot of speeches in hand and I can just pick out any one of them and use it again. I think I shall focus on several major questions raised by Honourable colleagues just now. Firstly, several colleagues said in their speeches that the Government ought to put more efforts in co-ordination, especially in developing railway networks. This I support. If Members, in particular Mr LAU Kong-wah, think that the Government has not done enough in co-ordination, I believe this question has to be answered by the Government itself. But as far as I know, overall studies have been made in connection with railways, especially the development of railways. Hence, to a certain extent, we cannot say that the Government has not done anything in co-ordination.

The second issue concerns how to supervise or what organization should be responsible for supervision. When Mr LAU Kong-wah spoke, he cited the Housing Authority and the Hospital Authority as examples. However, these two bodies are not commercial organizations and they are not oriented to commercial principles, so the ways they are managed and operated are different. Mr LAU also cited the Airport Authority as an example and this was a closer comparison. In fact there is not much difference between the Airport Authority and the railways authority, so I consider that using this comparison does not mean negating the present framework. There is one point that I am not very clear about and maybe Mr LAU Kong-wah can explain it to me: What is "consensus administration"? To be frank, it is very difficult to have consensus in politics. There is not even consensus among the 60 Members here, how can there be "consensus administration" in future just because of this independent organization? I do not quite understand this point. I think this is very idealistic.

Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung also pointed out the question of inadequate government co-ordination and I hope the Government can answer this question itself. In his speech, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung seemed to say that since the Government would have to re-examine the studies made by the MTR, now that the KCRC wanted to conduct a study, the Government might as well conduct the study by itself instead of letting KCRC do it. I kept on listening and I thought perhaps he believed it would be better for the railway companies to be nationalized and managed by the Government. Personally, I can only speak on behalf of the MTRC. It has accumulated at least over 20 years' experiences in such areas as planning, financial arrangement, management and operation, why do we not let it continue to operate?

The question under discussion is the so-called question of "having no overlord". One or two Members, even Dr Raymond HO, hinted that the problem of "having no overlord" did exist. I think this is incorrect because some government officials are acting as ex officio members of the Boards of Directors of the two railway companies. In the operation of the Boards of Director, the Government surely knows everything before any decision is made by the Boards. The Government has also the right to know everything because it is the only shareholder. It is inconceivable that these two companies could operate without the Government's approval. If another independent organization is to be set up, how is it going to be created? The answer will be by appointment unless the fares are to be examined and approved by vote or by the legislature as suggested by some Members such as Mr CHAN Choi-hi. Just as the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU said, we have thoroughly debated this issue before. In fact, the Democratic Party has, on past occasions, made such a proposal but it was voted down by the majority of the then Legislative Council Members. I believe the main reason was that we had seen the experiences of many countries: If a person engages in political or legislative work and wishes to secure more votes, he will naturally think of keeping the fares at a low level. But then the railway companies will have insufficient funds, and thus be unable to continue to run and operate, and will even encounter serious problems in securing loans.

In fact, we are now talking about Hong Kong railways. Hong Kong railways are an successful example and it is among the top success stories in the world, whether in terms of safety record, efficiency or financial arrangement. So we are not talking about a railway company on the verge of bankruptcy or in financial straits. Just now Mr CHAN Choi-hi said that we had to prevent the emergence of problems in future. But I do not think this is a reason at all. The rates of MTR fare increases have all along been kept under the inflation rate and far lower than the salary increases of Hong Kong citizens. Moreover, a number of public opinion polls were conducted every time before the fares were increased. Hong Kong people are actually very reasonable and they do not necessarily say, "You should not increase fares every year." We all know that costs have been rising all the time and we must have sources of funds to properly manage, maintain and develop the railways. For these reasons, I do not intend to support the original motion. But I will support Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment.

Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the contents of today's motion can be divided into two aspects. I agree that the development of the whole transport system needs co-ordination and this is also supported by the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU). I will not dwell on this aspect further. Instead, I will mainly talk about the supervision of the various issues, such as services and ticketing, related to the railways. However, let me first speak in response to Mr Edward HO. Just now he seemed to suggest that he sees no problem with the present railway fares. In this respect, I shall now try to tell Members the findings of a survey instead of my own feelings.

A retail trade union has conducted a survey on the quality of life in Hong Kong, and this year is already the sixth year it conducted this survey. Every year, they found that transport expenses took up the largest proportion of the living expenses of the citizens, whereas its rate of increase is also the highest. Among the various transports, the MTR has the highest rate of increase. So the data is self-evident. Of course, the property prices have also soared, but a comparision of the two items obviously shows that transport expenses constitute a problem for they are part of the people's living expenses. We can also see that whenever these public transports, in particular the MTR and the KCR, raise their fares, the citizens will put forward a series of opinions. I consider that this is a problem. Unless we turn a deaf ear to the voices of the community, it is difficult to say there is no problem as Mr HO has put it. In fact, it aroused the public's concern every time the fares increased. I think that we, as legislators, ought to take this matter seriously.

Besides, if things go smoothly, the new airport will be completed and opened in April next year, including the official operation of the Airport Railway. In addition, the development of the Northwest Railway will be near completion then. From this, we can see that the transport hub of Hong Kong in future relies heavily on the railway systems. Therefore, I feel that there is a need to set up a good supervisory mechanism since it is conducive to the people's quality of life in future. This is also a pressing issue.

Madam President, many people actually feel indignant at the annual fare increases of certain public transports. Take the recent application of the Octopus stored value system as an example. This electronized ticketing reform has aroused considerable concern among members of the community as it was found that the railway companies had played with figures in terms of the ticket value. On the surface, the MTR fares have increased by only 6%, which is lower than the inflation rate. But since fare concessions such as last ride bonus and additional value have been cut, the increase is actually more than 10% in terms of ticket value, and the overall actual increase is substantially raised. I have to state that this is a kind of commercial gimmick. Such a practice is in fact a way of increasing fares in disguise in a bid to evade the supervisory mechanism. In face of the operators' various practices, it will not be fair to the public if we continue to refrain from setting up a supervisory system.

Madam President, a profit control schemes were devised by the Government for public bodies in the mid-seventies, but no amendment has ever been made up to this very moment. As a result, the upper limit of the public bodies' profits become a guarantee for their profits. In 1994, the MTRC took a turn for the better and began making profits. In 1995, it yielded a profit of about $1 billion but it still increased its fares on the pretext that it was in protracted debt. As to the KCR and the Light Rail Transit, augmented cost and improvement of service are always used as excuses for fare increases. I remember that the profit of the KCR at that time was over $1 billion, but it still insisted on increasing its fares. Although the rate of increase was lower than the inflation rate, I still find it unreasonable.

In fact, with the development in technology and the changes in the social environment, there is an absolute need to set up a new mechanism to supervise the fares. But how should we effect supervision properly? Which mechanism is right? The FTU totally supports the proposal put forward by Honourable colleagues in this Council today to expand the terms of reference of the TAC. Mr CHAN Choi-hi's comment that the existing railways are "having no overlord" is particularly true. Although both companies have their Boards of Directors, bureaucrats tend to protect one another. In this connection, how can we expect them to exercise self-supervision? We can of course say that they are only carrying out their work dutifully, but I can hardly believe that they are able to supervise themselves. Therefore, all these have to be included into the scope of supervision. But I do not think the TAC, as it presently stands, can assume such a supervisory role.

Just now, the TAC Chairman, Dr Raymond HO, has also mentioned this point. But, as an observer, I think that we have to look at the past performance of the TAC. In fact, the public has expressed a lot of opinions about the TAC. Very often, the public considers that the TAC is being generous at their expense in approving fare increases easily while the people being affected are the man in the street. At the same time, it seems that the TAC has failed to reflect the public's opinions conveyed to it. Although after Dr Raymond HO became the Chairman in recent years, there have been some improvements as some people considered that a rate of increase lower than inflation is already an improvement, yet the problem still exists. I remember when this issue was discussed in the former Legislative Council, the then Secretary for Transport promised to make changes and expand the TAC. I think this is essential. In view of the present composition, I think that representatives of concern groups and pressure groups should be included on TAC. On the contrary, I do not think it is important to have Legislative Council Members on the Committee. Some interested groups have all along been monitoring the Government, so they should be allowed to select some representatives to sit on the Committee. Of course, in the course of forming the TAC, we should have the participation of professional groups and other groups of our consent. Besides, we feel that government officials can be allowed to join, but it will be better if their ratio can be kept to the minimum and government officials should not be allowed to take up the post of Deputy Chairman.

I have had a profound realization from recent Labour Advisory Board meetings that if a government official acts as Chairman of a public body, it will be very difficult for him to make a fair judgement when conflicts of interests arise. Therefore, I have come to the view that government officials can take up some positions and they should at best take up the post of Deputy Chairman instead of Chairman. In addition, the Government or the company should not be allowed to propose the agenda for discussion and it should be proposed by Committee members instead. Furthermore, the discussion has to be adequately transparent. Even the documents have to show a certain degree of transparency. Therefore, I think that reforming the TAC has already become a pressing issue. I hope that, through this debate, the Government will enhance the accountability of the TAC and make its operation more transparent and more representative. This will give the whole society a mechanism to properly supervise the railway systems on which we increasingly rely with each passing day.

With these remarks, I support Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's amendment. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to state in unambiguous terms the views of the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (HKADPL) on the transport problems, especially those about the railways. I find three extremely important points in the question on today's debate, in particular the part concerning the mover of the original motion and the contents of the relevant amendments. Firstly, should the executive or the legislature be responsible for the supervision of the railways? Secondly, should the supervision be exercised by a single independent organization, or by a Traffic and Transport Bureau or a Traffic and Transport Committee responsible for the overall transport problems of Hong Kong? Thirdly, should the TAC be expanded to a Traffic and Transport Committee or a Traffic and Transport Bureau as proposed by the HKADPL, or should a new committee be set up? In fact, the debate mainly focuses on these three aspects.

As far as the HKADPL is concerned, it is very clear that Hong Kong has presently adopted a system of separating the executive and the legislature, or a system resembling the "separation" of powers. In other words, the executive mainly carries out the work of the Government and implements policies, whereas the legislature makes laws. Of course, certain policy changes can be effected in the course of legislation. But after the enactment of laws, the Government, instead of the legislature, will be responsible for enforcement. Viewing from this angle, I do not see why the Provisional Legislative Council should do some work similar to that of the executive. For example, I feel that the process of examining and approving the fares of public transports is more administrative in nature than legislative. But then of course, if the legislature does not agree with certain policies of the executive, it can change the policies through legislation, that is, to amend the Government's policies by legislative means. Therefore, the HKADPL does not subscribe to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's proposal of vesting the legislature with the power to determine fares. The HKADPL has already talked about this point before and we are now only repeating our view once more.

Secondly, several Honourable Members, especially Mr LAU Kong-wah, expressed the hope that an independent organization can be put in place to tackle the problems of the two railways. Since the whole motion debate dwells only on the two railways, so I assume that the independent organization referred to by Mr LAU Kong-wah will only deal with the problems pertaining to the two railways. We find this inadequate and incomplete because the overall transport system in Hong Kong comprises not only railways. There are buses, minibuses and ferries too. In fact, a lot of things are interrelated. Take the development of railways as an example. We cannot only look at the railways alone and pay no attention to buses. Actually, buses are influencing the rail fares. On the contrary, apart from the bus fares, the railways also influence the routing of buses too. In other words, the buses have to make up for the deficiency of the railways. This is in fact a "holistic", "overall" issue. Since it is a "holistic", "overall" issue, we think that the two railways have to be supervised in a serious manner. It will be more comprehensive if their overall policies, fares and so on can be supervised by a Traffic and Transport Committee or Bureau. Therefore, what we originally intended to amend was in accordance with the principle of proposing to set up a quasi Traffic and Transport Committee or Bureau, but since this debate is related to the two railways only, so we specifically include the two railways. According to our original intention, we wanted to emphasize a comprehensive Traffic and Transport Bureau. In fact, in a debate held in the Legislative Council in May this year, the then Secretary for Transport orally promised that such a bureau would be set up. Of course, I hope that the Secretary for Transport can inform us of the present situation and progress when he gives his reply. I hope the verbal promise given at that time has already turned into action and part of the Government's policies. It would be most ideal if the Secretary can show us a timetable as to when the Bureau can be set up.

Lastly, I would like to talk about whether it is right for the TAC to take up the responsibility. Since the HKADPL cannot make an amendment in this aspect, we will probably give our support if the TAC is willing to take up the responsibility because it is better to have some amendments than none at all. We feel that the TAC has the prerequisites for becoming a Traffic and Transport Committee or Bureau, but I think this is not the most satisfactory choice. The reason is the TAC's public image. Looking back on the situation three years ago, I completely agree with what Miss CHAN Yuen-han said earlier that the TAC would approve any applications for fare increases for it had never rejected any such applications. At that time, some TAC members were also criticized for this reason. Things may have improved now that the Committee is chaired by Dr HO, but the old image lingers. Moreover, the TAC is only a consultative body of which all members are appointed and there is a lack of transparency. This explains why it carries with it the burden of these old criticisms and old impressions. Therefore, instead of renewing and reforming the old TAC, it would be much better to set up a new framework with a new image. Its functions will probably be the same as those pointed out by the HKADPL. If we have to set up something, why do we not set up a new one? I consider that this new image and new perspective will allow the public to participate in making suggestions and formulating policies, as well as re-assessing this new framework. We also agree that this framework shall include government officials, representatives of relevant organizations and representatives of public opinion, consumers and concern groups. In making these remarks, my main purpose is to clarify that the whole debate is actually foused on these three aspects, and they should be the focus of our attention. So we hope to take this opportunity to reiterate it once more.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) has been strongly urging the Government for years to expand the composition and terms of reference of the TAC, empowering it to supervise the ticketing systems and examine the fare increases of the three railways. In the former Legislative Council debate on a Members' Bill on the supervisory mechanism of the railways' fare increases, Mr Gordon SIU, the then Secretary for Transport, promised to set up an "independent, credible and highly transparent" organization to examine applications for fare increases of all public transports. One of the proposed mechanisms was a restructured TAC as recommended all along by the DAB. We welcomed that promise but unfortunately, nothing has been done since May. What worries us most is that, with the introduction of new personnel and new style of work to the Transport Bureau, the old promise may have been totally forgotten. The three railways raised their fares only the day before yesterday and simultaneously launched the Octopus fare collection system. The public may appreciate the convenience of going anywhere they like with just a single card, but if we calculate carefully, we will find that the Octopus has cut the fare concessions that passengers used to enjoy and obviously there is a price to pay for the convenience.

In fact, it has become a usual practice for the two railway companies to increase their fares every year and they have got used to playing tricks with figures. All these have become too familiar to us. No matter how many Members and non-governmental organizations appeal loudly, and no matter how many tens of thousands of people sign to petition the two companies to freeze fare increases in view of their enormous surpluses, the MTRC and KCRC never "care a dime". This is because they have in hand the trump card that enables them to increase their fares without any supervision. It is only that they came up with a new gimmick, namely, the Octopus, this year.

Every year when they raised their fares, they would emphasize with great confidence that the rate of increase was lower than the inflation rate. It seemed that as long as the rate of increase was kept under the inflation rate, increasing the fares was only natural and right and that the profits the companies made each year could be disregarded completely. Take the KCRC as an example. Its net profits in 1996 amounted to $3 billion, two times the profit made the year before. Yet its rate of fare increase was still calculated on the basis of a figure higher than the inflation rate announced by the Census and Statistics Department. On the other hand, the MTRC even used technical problems as a reason and, as a result, some of the stored value fares, which were supposedly concessionary fares, were even higher than the single journey fares.

Let us take the Light Rail Transit (LRT) as another example. With the launching of the Octopus card, the LRT Company changed the three-section fare collection system to a five-section system and, at the same time, the monthly tickets and season tickets that were used for attracting passengers previously were cancelled. Taking all these into account, the new fares are much higher than inflation. As far as the regular LRT passengers are concerned, the fares they pay each month will be greatly increased.

The original intention of the Octopus fare collection system is to facilitate the public to take different public transports. However, the joint company, of which the MTRC is the biggest shareholder, was insatiably avaricious. While it wantonly collected exorbitant deposits from the public, it also took the opportunity to strip off the fare concessions that passengers have all along been enjoying. The DAB is extremely resentful of such a behaviour.

For a common Octopus card, the joint company now collects a deposit of $50, with $30 as the cost and $20 for the so-called "negative value". For a personal Octopus card, an additional service charge of $20 is collected. This is simply outright robbery. The DAB holds that the Octopus card, as a tool for replacing the stored-value ticket by the railway companies, should basically not charge anything for its cost. As far as the life span of the Octopus card is concerned, the cost per each usage is 20 cents if the card is used 100 times, and the cost per each usage will drop to 2 cents if it is used 1 000 times. According to the railway companies, the card can be used unlimited times. So it is unreasonable to charge for its cost if we calculate on this basis. We appreciate the railway companies' worry that the Octopus card may be abused or lost, thus leading to a wastage of the companies' resources. However, the railway companies also admit that unless an Octopus card user is sure he will never use the relevant public transports again, he will definitely not return the card. As to the so-called "negative value", this is simply meant to mislead the public. This is because under the present scheme, passengers have to pay as much as $20 as the minimum reserves for the ticket value and they have to make up the deficiencies if the ticket value drops below $20. In this case, how can there be "negative value"?

The DAB considers that the railway companies should, based on the principles of public service, constantly upgrade the quality of their service, instead of using service as a pretext for accumulating wealth by unfair means. The DAB also holds the view that the railway companies should refrain from collecting deposits and the cost for the Octopus card from passengers as soon as possible. Moreover, the service charge levied by the common and personal Octopus cards should be abolished immediately after the company has reached an agreement with the banks on automatic transfer arrangements. This is because once automatic transfer is fully implemented, a common or personal Octopus card can automatically increase its value by means of automatic transfer and the railway companies will thus be able to save a lot of administrative expenses. We can see from the example of the Octopus card how the railway companies, without adequate supervision, treat their passengers at will, and this is unsatisfactory.

Therefore, the DAB thinks that the Government should expeditiously fulfil its promise by restructuring the TAC and expanding its terms of reference. The Government should also supervise the ticketing systems of the three railways as well as the joint company of the Octopus and increase the financial transparency of the company so as to ensure that the incomes secured from the Octopus will be used for stabilizing fares or for rebate purposes, as well as preventing indiscriminate collection of charges.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's amendment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

I now invite Mr LAU Kong-wah to speak on the amendment. Mr LAU Kong-wah, you have five minutes.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, many Members have expressed their opinions on my motion. I was particularly concerned about Mrs Miriam LAU's remarks. I pointed out that Mrs LAU had called for a review in 1993 but the Government has done nothing over the past four years. I would like to ask the Government if we urge it to conduct a review again, are we going to wait for another four years? Now even the word "supervising" is to be deleted. This will make my motion powerless and the Government will certainly welcome it.

Mrs Miriam LAU opined that if a government monitoring mechanism was to be transferred to a statutory body, it would offer the Government an opportunity to shirk its responsibility, or, as the Honourable CHEUNG Hon-chung said, it would complicate the matter. By the same token, should we abolish the Hospital Authority, the Housing Authority and the Airport Authority as well? Are these authorities complicating the matter? Is the Government shirking its responsibility? If this argument holds water, the above-mentioned authorities should all be abolished and the previous mechanism reinstated with government departments being responsible for the respective areas. A moment ago, certain Members mentioned that authorities of this kind might be subject to political influence and challenges. If that is the case, should all these authorities be abolished as I have suggested? The answer is certainly "no". If so, why did Members oppose the establishment of management bodies of this kind?

Mr Edward HO said that when the proposal to "strengthen supervision" was put forward in the Provisional Legislative Council meeting, the Council was extremely shocked as if the credit rating would be affected and there would be a total darkness and as if in a situation described by Mr HO......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Is it a point of order?

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe Mr LAU Kong-wah has misunderstood me. Can I make an elucidation?

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to continue. I have not misunderstood Mr HO's remarks. I am now going to quote his remarks. Mr HO said that the establishment of an authority implies that the two railway companies would have to cease operation. It was never my intention. I would like to ask Members to consider the fact that the Provisional Legislative Council is also responsible for supervising the Government at the moment. In this connection, does the existence of a legislature mean that the Government has to cease operation? Is it tantamount to a complete darkness? In fact, we are only performing our own duties. I think I have elucidated the question raised by Mr HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, Mr LAU did misunderstand my remarks.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, would you permit him to raise his point? I could respond to that.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): So you are willing to give way to Mr HO.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): But will my time be deducted?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): No.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Then I would like to go on.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Under the Rules of Procedure, a Member may elucidate his own statement, but not that of other Members. But if both of you agree, I will permit Mr HO to explain the part of his speech which has been misunderstood.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I will only act according to the Rules of Procedure.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Sorry then, Mr HO. I think you can only said Mr LAU had misunderstood your remarks. Mr LAU, please continue speech.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Excuse me, Madam President, I wonder if you could state clearly the present situation. Are you saying that even though Mr LAU has misunderstood me, I do not have the right to make rectification?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): No, you do. But if you ask me to allow you, under the Rules of Procedure, to elucidate the part of your speech which has been misunderstood, you have to wait till Mr LAU has finished.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): All right.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU, please continue.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): I have been interrupted by him. (Laughter) A moment ago, a Member mentioned that the existing advisory framework was already sufficient. But I can say that it is insufficient. If Members have attended a meeting in this Council to scrutinize the fare increase proposals by the two railway companies, they would know that within the 30 minutes or one hour available, papers were submitted to Members for their reference at the meeting and Members were even asked to give comments immediately. If a Member is not familiar with the situation, he will virtually be unable to give any comments at all. I have served on two advisory committees of the Government before and I fully understand the operation of these committees. These committees will only give very little information to their Members within very limited time. As a volunteer, I could only use my limited energy to make limited research while the information contained in papers was also very limited. Given such unfavourable conditions, each member can only give one-sided comments. In such case, how could we carry out supervision satisfactorily?

Madam President, just now Mr Edward HO mentioned a term to me. If he wants to make an in-depth academic study, I will welcome it. I am also glad to hear him say that it is his ideal. But if it is his ideal, why does he not work towards it? Madam President, the attitude taken by the Secretary in his speech today is very important. He is well-known for prudence and he is described by the media as "a stone out of which you cannot get blood". This also illustrates that he is very careful with his words. I hope the expression is used for describing his tongue instead of his mind. I also hope that he can keep his mind open to accept more new ideas.

I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Edward HO, you can now elucidate.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, thank you for giving me the opportunity and I shall be brief. In fact, what I said just now was not targeted at Mr LAU Kong-wah's speech. In fact, I was referring to Mr CHAN Choi-hi who said that this Council should have the right to approve fares. In my opinion, this Council should be given this function in order to monitor the Government and other organizations and in fact this Council is doing this at the moment. I think Mr LAU has misunderstood this point. However, when I said "idealistic", I was referring to "consensus administration". I did not say that this was an ideal. When I said "idealistic", I meant it is not necessarily realistic. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah, do you wish to elucidate your speech?

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, can I clarify what he said?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This may go on endlessly. In the course of a debate, we need only say what we want to say and we need not keep arguing over some trivial remarks. So if you wish to clarify what you have said, I will allow you to do so. But I hope you can make it short and refrain yourself from triggering off unnecessary debate.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not want to trigger off any debate either. But the terms "ideal" and "idealistic" mentioned by Mr Edward HO earlier are just referring to the same thing. The question is whether you want to do it or not.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, let me state at the outset the Government's position towards the original motion and the three amendments. We do not agree with the motion moved by the Honourable LAU Kong-wah, nor the amendments moved by the Honourable CHEUNG Hon-chung and the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi. However, we support the amendment moved by the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU in conducting a comprehensive review for the purposes of planning and co-ordinating each development project and the ticketing and fare systems of each of the railways.

Before I venture to explain in detail the Government's position, I would like to respond to a question that has been discussed by the former Legislative Council over the past few years, a point mentioned by a few Members just now. This question includes the mechanism for adjusting rail fares, the supervision of the operation of the two railway companies to raise their transparency and accountability and so on. The most recent discussion was held on 28 May this year during the Second Regarding debate of a Members' Bill moved by Mr SIN Chung-kai. Members would wish to refer to the Official Record of Proceedings related to the debate and the report compiled by the Legislative Council Secretariat in connection with this issue.

Let us look at the existing mechanism. Pursuant to the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Ordinance and the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation Ordinance, both railway companies have to operate their business in accordance with the principle of prudent commercial principles to ensure as far as possible that their income is sufficient to meet expenditure calculated on a year-on-year basis. The importance of this principle is that it enables the railway companies to respond to the rapid changes of the market flexibly and the ever-increasing demands of the public for railway services. This is also in line with the established policy of the Government that no public money is to be used for subsidizing public transport organizations.

I must point out again that the two railway companies have not abused the power conferred on them by the Ordinances in determining fares under this overriding principle. On the contrary, they have exercised with prudence to raise their fares in line with the inflation rate to reduce as far as possible the impact of the fare adjustments on the public. In the course of adjusting the fares, the two companies would explain in detail their financial situation and the rationale for their fare adjustments to the TAC, the Panel on Transport, district boards, passengers liaison groups and relevant organizations before submitting their proposals to the Boards of Directors for decision.

Although the two railway companies, which are wholly owned by the Government, have been operating smoothly for years in providing the public with safe, efficient, value-for-money and reliable railway services, the Government has not neglected the importance of supervision. We have, on different occasions and at different venues, explained to Members in detail the supervisory measures taken by the Government and let me repeat them briefly here:

First, the Chief Executive appointed the Secretary for Transport and the Secretary for Treasury as members of the Boards of Directors of the two railway companies to participate directly in administering the development of the two companies and financial management.

Second, I will meet with the Chairmen of the two railway companies at regular intervals to exchange views on individual matters and issue policy guidelines.

Third, the two companies need to submit financial reports to the Financial Secretary each year and lay the relevant information on the Table of the legislature.

Fourth, the Transport Bureau set up a railway unit in 1996 to supervise, co-ordinate and develop the planning of the new railway development projects. In addition, various supervisory units were set up, with members drawn from various government departments, representatives of railway companies, railway experts or consultants, to plan and examine the implementation of the detailed work procedures of each of the railway development plans.

Fifth, the Hong Kong Railway Inspectorate was set up to supervise the safety or operation of railways and conduct investigations into accidents, as well as giving advice on the safety of new railway development projects.

Sixth, through breifings to such organizations as the TAC, the legislature and district boards, the two railway companies report on their services and improvement measures and listen to the views expressed by the organizations.

As regards the basic principle of enhancing the transparency and accountability of the two railway companies, the position of the Government is exactly the same as that of Members. We will also continue to encourage and supervise the two companies to further strengthen their effort in these two aspects.

Under the existing legislation and supervisory framework, the two railway companies have, over the past decade, constructed the railway systems that Hong Kong people are so proud of. The rail services provided have also reached the top-rate level by international standards. We should consider carefully whether or not the abolition of the existing mechanism will bring about an adverse impact on the future railway development. From the elaboration I gave just now, Members should notice that the two railway companies are not "having no overlord". We should also take into account that too much supervision will lead to stagnation. We do not hope that the operation of the two railway companies will turn into "a pool of stagnant water" as a result of over-supervision and thus completely disabling the two companies from carrying out their essential work.

Mr LAU Kong-wah suggested to set up an independent statutory organization to plan and co-ordinate each of the railway development projects as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways. The Government has reservations about this proposal mainly because the railway development projects, from planning to co-ordination, have all along been the major task of the Transport Bureau. The Administration is duty-bound to take over these tasks for they fall into its purview. The relevant work involves a lot of technical problems pertaining to railway development and other policy considerations, such as land resumption, finance, environmental protection and so on.

Members have also touched upon the problem of manpower. As Secretary for Transport, I can assure Honourable Members that the Government will definitely allocate adequate resources and manpower to plan and co-ordinate each of the new railway development projects. In addition to the Transport Bureau, the Railway Development Office of the Highways Department and the Transport Department will also send professionals to participate directly in the development of railways. As regards some scopes of work that lack local professionals, the Government and the railway companies will consider inviting overseas consultants to assist in the relevant planning effort.

Undeniably, over the past few years, the Government has received a lot of proposals concerning the setting up of organizations similar to those suggested by Mr LAU Kong-wah, an expansion of the powers and composition of the TAC, allowing the legislature to interfere directly in the determination of rail fares and so on. Among the proposals, Mr SIN Chung-kai has moved two Members' Bills last year though the two bills were voted down by the majority of Members in the Second Reading debate held on 28 May. On the day the debate was held, the then Secretary for Transport also mentioned that the Government would consider whether or not an independent public transport management committee should be set up to examine all applications for public transport fare increases. In response to the amendment moved by Mrs Miriam LAU, the Government has decided to undertake a comprehensive review in connection with the issue.

The objective of this review is to assess the existing development and operation of the supervision of the relevant railway companies, including an assessment of whether the fare adjustments, legislation and administration framework are able to cope with the long-term development of our railways. In addition, the review will put forward appropriate proposals on enhancing the transparency of the relevant mechanisms and strengthing the credibility of these mechanisms. At the same time, the review will explore whether or not there are other more effective channels to achieve these goals, consider the merits and demerits of the modes of other regions, as well as consulting various organizations and the public on these problems. We will definitely include the suggestions put forward by Members of the former Legislative Council and various organizations as well as the opinions expressed by Members today into the scope of the review for a joint study.

This review will surely involve a lot of problems related to law, the political system and the operation of the two railway companies. The Administration will also need to reserve a definite period of time to conduct consultation. I can expert the review will be completed in 12 months and we will then submit the relevant findings to the TAC and the Panel on Transport for further discussion.

Although the review has not yet commenced, I must reiterate here that the TAC has been established for more than 30 years and it has all along been operating smoothly and produced a remarkable effect on the supervision of public transport services. It is also able to provide the Government with valuable advice on transport policies. We must have adequate and convincing rationale before we can make any changes to the powers and responsibilities of the TAC. Likewise, any reforms should be done with caution and after thorough consideration. We should absolutely not alter the existing mechanism completely overnight.

In conclusion, Madam President, based on the rationale I put forward in my speech and the fact that the Government has agreed to review the relevant topic, I hope Members will support the amendment moved by Mrs Miriam LAU and vote against the original motion and the other amendments. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now call upon Mrs Miriam LAU to move her amendment to the motion. Mrs Miriam LAU.

MRS MIRIAM LAU(in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion be amended as set out on the Agenda.

Mrs Miriam LAU moved the following amendment:

"To delete "expeditiously set up an independent statutory organization tasked with the responsibility of co-ordinating and regulating each development project as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways" and substitute with "undertake a comprehensive review for the purposes of strengthening the planning and co-ordination of each development project and the supervision of the ticketing and fare systems of each of the railways"."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mrs Miriam LAU be made to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated.

Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

Mr Edward HO and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have claimed a division. The division bell will ring for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Before I declare the result, are there any queries? If not, the result will now be displayed.

Mr David CHU, Mr HO Sai-chu, Mr Edward HO, Dr Raymond HO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Elsie TU, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr Henry WU, Mr NGAI Shiu-kit, Mr Henry TANG, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr YUEN Mo, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin, Mr LEUNG Chun-ying, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Andrew WONG, Dr Philip WONG, Mr Kennedy WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Dr Charles YEUNG, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr Ambrose LAU, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr KAN Fook-yee, Mr LO Suk-ching, Dr LAW Cheung-kwok and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted for the amendment.

Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, Mr CHAN Choi-hi, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TSANG Yok-sing, Mr CHENG Kai-nam, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr LAU Kong-wah and Mr NGAN Kam-chuen voted against the amendment.

Mr CHIM Pui-chung and Mr TAM Yiu-chung abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 34 Members in favour of the amendment, 11 against and two abstaining. She therefore declared that the amendment was carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, as Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment has been agreed, your amendment cannot proceed in its present form. Would you like to seek leave to revise the terms of your amendment?

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, may I seek your leave to revise the terms of my amendment as set out in the paper which I have now tabled.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung has my leave to revise the terms of his amendment. In accordance with the House Committee's recommendation which I have accepted, Mr CHEUNG has up to three minutes to speak.

Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, you can explain the revised wording in the amendment. But you may not call for Members' support again. Mr CHEUNG, do you want to explain?

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, should I propose my revised amendment first? According to the Rules of Procedure, the amendment should be moved first before we come to the next procedure, am I right?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think you should first explain the difference in the wording of your revised amendment and then move your revised amendment.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment and my amendment are not mutually exclusive. I think she is taking a macroscopic view and my amendment is actually one of the objectives of that view. So I do not see any conflict between the two amendments. Since her amendment has been carried, I would like to make an addition to the motion as amended by her to urge the Government to expand the composition and terms of reference of the TAC so as to enable the Committee to strengthen the supervision of the service and ticketing systems and examine their fares. Thank you, Madam President.

Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung moved the following amendment:

"To add "; the Government should also expand the composition and terms of reference of the Transport Advisory Committee, so as to enable the Committee to strengthen the supervision of the service and ticketing systems of each of the railways and examine their fare" after "prudent commercial operations".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, I think you should have in hand a copy of the revised amendment by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung. Does any Member not have a copy?

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Can I ask Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung to explain what he means by "examining their fares"? Is there any difference between the words "examine" and "approve"?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, are these words included in the original wording of your amendment? Mr Edward HO, in Mr CHEUNG's amendment distributed to Members, these words are already included.

I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's further amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU be approved.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated.

Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the voices for and against the amendment are more or less the same. Council will now proceed to a division. The division bell will ring for three minutes.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): A point of order. It seems that I have not moved my amendment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have already done so.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): As far as I remember, after moving the amendment, I still have three minutes to speak. But you only said that I needed to explain why I included those words. So I then asked you whether I should move the amendment first before I spoke for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Perhaps Members are not familiar with this situation. Let me explain it again so that Members will be more familiar with it next time. Like the present case, your original amendment seeks to amend Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion, but since Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion has been amended by Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment, the wording of your amendment has to be revised. In this connection, you rose to explain the revised wording of your amendment and move your revised amendment. That you have done. Since the revised amendment has just been distributed to Members, it may be necessary for you to give a brief explanation. The reason I give a Member three minutes to speak is to allow him to explain the changes in the terms and wording, instead of giving him another opportunity to urge for Members' support.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, the question now put is: That Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's further amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU be approved.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are there any queries? If not, the result will now be displayed.

Mr David CHU, Dr Raymond HO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mrs Elsie TU, Mr Henry WU, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TSANG Yok-sing, Mr CHENG Kai-nam, Mr Frederick FUNG, Dr Charles YEUNG, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr Ambrose LAU, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Mr LO Suk-ching, Dr LAW Cheung-kwok and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted for the amendment.

Mr HO Sai-chu, Mr Edward HO, Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr NGAI Shiu-kit, Mr Henry TANG, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr LEUNG Chun-ying, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr CHAN Choi-hi, Mr Andrew WONG, Dr Philip WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr KAN Fook-yee voted against the amendment.

Mr YUEN MO, Mr Kennedy WONG, Mr CHIM Pui-chung and Mr TAM Yiu-chung abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 26 Members in favour of the amendment, 17 against and four abstaining. She therefore declared that the amdnement was carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi, as Mrs Miriam LAU's and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's amendments have been agreed, your amendment cannot proceed in its present form. Would you like to seek leave to revise the terms of your amendment?

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung be further amended by my revised amendment. My amendment is to add ", and amend the relevant legislation to require the two railway companies to seek the prior approval of the legislature before increasing their fares" after "examine their fares". I think this is useful for the whole monitoring system and therefore I propose this amendment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi, you have my leave to revise the wordings of your amendment. In accordance with the House Committee's recommendation which I have accepted, you have up to three minutes to explain the new wording. Meanwhile, you can move your revised amendment.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung be further amended by my revised amendment.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi moved the following amendment:

"To add ", and amend the relevant legislation to require the two railway companies to seek the prior approval of the legislature before increasing their fares" after "examine their fares"."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated.

Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

Mr CHAN Choi-hi rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi has claimed a division. Council shall now proceed to a division.

PRESIDENT(in Cantonese): Members, Council shall now proceed to vote. The result will now be displayed.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi voted for the amendment.

Mr David CHU, Mr HO Sai-chu, Mr Edward HO, Dr Raymond HO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Elsie TU, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr Henry WU, Mr Henry TANG, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr YUEN Mo, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin, Mr LEUNG Chun-ying, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TSANG Yok-sing, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Andrew WONG, Dr Philip WONG, Mr Kennedy WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, MR YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr Ambrose LAU, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr KAN Fook-yee, Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Mr LO Suk-ching, Dr LAW Cheung-kwok, Mr TAM Yiu-chung and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted against the amendment.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were one Member in favour of the amendment and 42 against. She therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah, you are now entitled to reply and you have four minutes three seconds.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, today we have two motions for debate, one has been carried without amendment, the other with several amendments.

I am pleased that my motion has attracted so many amendments because this issue has to be analysed and debated from different angles. I am also grateful to Members who have spoken, in particular, Mr Edward HO. Later I will seek advice from him because he is a member of the Board of Directors of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation.

I am disappointed by part of the speech delivered by the Secretary for Transport. It is because Members who have spoken or Members of this Council have a common feeling that we need to put in place an organization for co-ordination and planning as we are facing a huge railway development in the years ahead. But the Secretary has completely failed to give us any response or any concrete proposal in this aspect.

But on the other hand, I welcome the Secretary's proposal. Originally I thought we could not get "blood out of a stone", but he at least has made an undertaking today that the Government will consider setting up a "Public Transport Management Board" ─ an independent organization with credibility and a high degree of transparency for examining public transport fare increases. He has also undertaken that the respective proposal will be submitted within 12 months. Of course, I also hope that I can sit in this Chamber to examine the proposal then. Anyhow, I believe my colleagues, no matter at which level and in what post, will continue to monitor the Government from different angles in relation to railway development and fare increases.

Madam President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr LAU Kong-wah as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

Mrs Miriam LAU rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Miriam LAU has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, Council shall now proceed to vote. If there are no queries, the result will now be displayed.

Dr Raymond HO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mrs Elsie TU, Mr Henry WU, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TSANG Yok-sing, Mr Frederick FUNG, Dr Charles YEUNG, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr Ambrose LAU, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Mr LO Suk-ching, Dr LAW Cheung-kwok and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted for the amended motion.

Mr HO Sai-chu, Mr Edward HO, Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr NGAI Shiu-kit, Mr Henry TANG, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr LEUNG Chun-ying, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr KAN Fook-yee voted against the amended motion.

Mr YUEN Mo, Mr Kennedy WONG and Mr CHIM Pui-chung abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 24 Members in favour of the amended motion, 13 against and three abstaining. She therefore declared that the motion was carried.

NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 10 September 1997.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight minutes to Eight o'clock.