Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 10 September 1997
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, G.B.M.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, J.P.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE ELSIE LEUNG OI-SIE, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT

MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS

MR STEPHEN IP SHU-KWAN, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

MR KEVIN HO CHI-MING, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

MR MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MR CLEMENT MAK CHING-HUNG

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

MR GREGORY LEUNG WING-LUP, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P.,: SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG, J.P.,: DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU,: ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subject

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
Securities and Futures Commission (Fees) (Amendment) Rules 1997	430/97
Banking Ordinance (Amendment of Seventh Schedule) Notice 1997	431/97
Immigration (Amendment) Regulation 1997	432/97
Registration of Persons (Amendment) Regulation 1997	433/97
Marriage Reform (Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1997	434/97
Births Registration (Special Registers) Ordinance (Amendment of Fifth Schedule) Order 1997	435/97
Deaths Registration (Special Registers) Ordinance (Amendment of Fourth Schedule) Order 1997	436/97
Marriage Ordinance (Amendment of Second Schedule) Order 1997	437/97
Trade Marks (Amendment) Rules 1997	438/97
Child Abduction and Custody Ordinance (49 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	439/97
Building (Planning) (Amendment) Regulation 1997 (L.N. 239 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	440/97

Sessional Papers

No. 7─	Report by the Trustee of the Correctional Services Children's Education Trust for the period 1 September 1995 to 31 August 1996
No.8─	The Government Minute in response to the Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997

ADDRESSES

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Good afternoon, Members. The Chief Secretary for Administration will address the Council on the Government Minute in response to Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997. Chief Secretary for Administration.

The Government Minute in response to the Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Madam President, laid on the table today is the Government Minute responding to Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee. The Minute sets out the measures the Government has taken, or is planning to take, on the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Report. I do not propose to go over the Government's response on each of the subjects covered.

I am pleased to note that the Honourable Eric LI has been elected once again as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. In his capacity as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee of the previous legislature, Mr LI spoke on 11 June this year when tabling the Report. Referring to some of the subjects covered in the Report, he made certain key observations regarding the implementation of public policy and the Government's accountability. My response to those observations is as follows:

Mr LI considered that while the Government establishes publicly-funded bodies with the objective of improving public services to the community, it is incumbent upon the Administration to ensure that the huge public resources placed under these bodies are giving good value for money. We agree with this, especially when subventions to these non-government public bodies now account for 37% of total government recurrent expenditure. However, in discharging this responsibility, we have to strike a balance between proper control of public money and allowing these publicly-funded organizations adequate flexibility in resource management. Otherwise, we may undermine the efficient and effective delivery of public services by these bodies.

In the case of departmental quarters retained by the Hospital Authority, we agree that these quarters are valuable assets which should be put to good use at all times. The inter-departmental working group set up in April this year to monitor the utilization of these quarters has made good progress. Of the 542 vacant quarters at the time, 170 have been or will be converted for non-clinical uses by the Hospital Authority, such as offices and overnight restrooms and 190 will be used for providing social welfare services or let out commercially for residential purpose. The Hospital Authority is actively looking at the future use of the rest.

Also on the operation of publicly-funded organizations, Mr LI suggested that the time has perhaps come for the Administration to take a fresh overall view of the manner in which these organizations relate to the Government and the remuneration packages they offer. In making this suggestion, Mr LI observed that while we need to ensure the proper use of public resources, we should also ensure that these publicly-funded organizations meet the situations of the modern day labour market of Hong Kong. I agree with his remarks. Publicly-funded organizations operate independently of Government and need a degree of flexibility in setting their own terms and conditions of employment.

We feel that Government should not interfere in this provided that the terms are in line with our subvention principle that the overall remuneration for staff in organizations receiving Government subventions should not be superior to those provided by Government to comparable grades in the civil service.

We share the concern of the Public Accounts Committee on the implementation of the double housing benefits. Since there are different types of publicly-funded organizations, we need first to review the criteria governing the application of the double housing benefits rules. We will then take steps to ensure that those which should be subject to the rules are implementing the rules.

On the suspension of pensions for retired civil servants in publicly-funded organizations, we note Mr LI's remarks that our existing policy on suspension of monthly pensions for retired civil servants employed in certain gazetted publicly-funded organizations may have inadvertently placed the publicly-funded organizations in a disadvantageous position when recruiting retired civil servants. We will undertake an in-depth review of the policy, having regard to its original rationale and objectives, and their relevance to present circumstances.

Finally, the Committee expressed concern over the relocation of a private cargo pier under the West Kowloon Reclamation Project only a few years after its establishment as a result of the Airport Core Programme (ACP). The ACP is the largest and most important package of infrastructure development in Hong Kong's recent history. Against an extremely tight time schedule, it is almost inevitable that its implementation would impact on other projects or planned facilities. Nevertheless, we accept the need for a fuller assessment of such potential impact on our overall planning of such major infrastructure projects and will, as a general rule, do so in future.

Madam President, I wish to express my sincere thanks to the Chairman and Members of the former Public Accounts Committee. I am sure their good work will continue in the current Public Accounts Committee under the Chairmanship of Mr LI. I look forward to Members' positive comments and sound advice, which will help the public service of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region maintain high standards of openness and accountability.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW will address the Council on the Second Progress Report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council. Mrs Selina CHOW.

Second Progress Report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I presented to this Council on 22 March this year the first report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (the Working Group) since its establishment on 22 February this year. This time I am going to present the second progress report of the Working Group which has been set out in the PLC Paper No. CB(2)143 circulated to Members.

Since 22 March 1997, the Working Group has reviewed the Committee system of this Council and has completed four specific tasks. These four tasks are:

The report I present now has also set out the third batch of proposed amendments put forward by the Working Group. The Working Group agrees that I shall, on behalf of it, move motions under my name later today in this Council to endorse the amendment of some rules contained in the Rules of Procedure. Among the proposed amendments, there is the addition of Rule 74A to the Rules of Procedure governing the setting up of a "Committee on Rules of Procedure". Subsequent to the passage of this motion, I shall also move another motion on behalf of the Working Group to dissolve the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. I shall explain in detail the contents of these motions when I move them later.

Thank you, Madam President.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First question. Miss CHOY So-yuk.

1998 Legislative Council Election

1. MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, regarding the 1998 Legislative Council elections, will the Government inform this Council:

of the measures the Government will adopt to publicise the arrangements with regard to the 1998 Legislative Council elections;
whether the Government has undertaken any studies as to why some eligible citizens did not register as voters nor cast their votes in the last Legislative Council elections; if so, what the details are;
whether the target voting rate of 50% mentioned by the Government is based on a 100% voters registration rate or the actual voters registration rate;
how the Government will ensure that next year's Legislative Council elections will be free from corrupt practices, given that incidents of such practices were found in previous elections; and
according to Article 26 of the Basic Law, how many groups of persons who were eligible for registration as voters in the 1995 former Legislative Council elections will become ineligible in next year's Legislative Council elections?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,

Regarding the specific arrangements for the 1998 Legislative Council elections, the Government acknowledges that there is a need to conduct extensive publicity so that voters and candidates will have a clear understanding of the election arrangements and changes. At present, our plan is that publicity will involve a number of government departments, including the Information Services Department, Radio Television Hong Kong, Home Affairs Department, Registration and Electoral Office, Home Affairs Bureau and Constitutional Affairs Bureau, while the Electoral Affairs Commission will conduct promotional activities relating to registration of electors and issue guidelines on electoral matters. Meanwhile, the Provisional Legislative Council is still examining the Legislative Council Bill. The Government will co-operate with the Electoral Affairs Commission to draw up a detailed publicity plan after the Bill is passed by the Council.
Part (b) of the question asks about the willingness of the citizens to register as voters and cast their votes. In relation to Legislative Council elections in 1995, consultants were commissioned to conduct surveys on the citizens' willingness to register as voters and cast their votes. According to the survey, the reasons given for not registering as voters given by those eligible and interviewed included lack of interest in election, no knowledge on how to register and no time available.

As regards those interviewees who had registered as voters but did not cast their votes in the election, the reasons given for not voting included no time available, not in Hong Kong on the voting day, having no satisfactory candidate, lack of knowledge about the Legislative Council or the candidates and so on.

For the coming Legislative Council elections, we will deploy appropriate resources to conduct a full-scale voter registration exercise. In this connection, we are considering the feasibility of making door-to-door visits to encourage eligible persons to register as voters. There will also be publicity on the importance of the coming Legislative Council elections to encourage active public participation.
Part (c) of the question asks about the voter turn-out rate. Generally speaking, the voter turn-out rate is calculated in terms of the number of registered voters. As to the turn-out rate of the forthcoming Legislative Council elections, no specific target number has been set. The Government will, through various effective means, encourage eligible persons to register and take an active part in voting. As regards the turn-out rate, it is of course the higher the better.
Regarding the issue of honesty, the elections in Hong Kong have had a good track record of fairness and honesty. The Electoral Affairs Commission will draw up detailed guidelines to ensure that the elections are conducted in a fair, open and honest manner.

The coming elections will continue to be subject to the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance and the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Ordinance to guarantee fairness and integrity. The Independent Commission Against Corruption will be in charge of the relevant investigations, prosecutions and community education.
Part (e) of the question asks about the eligibility of voters. According to Article 26 of the Basic Law, a permanent resident of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) shall have the right to vote. The definition of a permanent resident is set out in Article 24 which is reflected in part II of Schedule 1 to the Immigration Ordinance. Under this provision, the following groups of persons, regardless of whether they were eligible voters before 1 July 1997, will no longer be qualified as eligible voters:
1. persons who have resided in Hong Kong for seven years or more but who are not eligible to be permanent residents under the amended Immigration Ordinance. An example is the foreign domestic helpers;
2. the second group of persons are those who are qualified as permanent residents of the SAR but who have not made an application to become such residents. Many persons not of Chinese nationality but who have ordinarily resided in Hong Kong belong to this group.

Those who are qualified as permanent residents but who have not made an application to become such residents may become eligible electors for the coming Legislative Council elections if they can establish their permanent resident status before the end of the voter registration period early next year. To do so, a person will need to apply to the Right of Abode Section of the Immigration Department for verification of eligibility for permanent resident status. The entire process would take about six weeks. I would like to take the opportunity to remind all those persons concerned to submit an early application to the Immigration Department if they wish to register as voters to take part in the elections next year.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY So-yuk.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, for the people who originally wanted to register as voters but lost their rights to vote under the provisions of Article 26 of the Basic Law, what measures will the Government take to ensure that they are removed from the voter register? Apart from finding them out when they register again or reporting the case themselves, what can the Government do to make sure that they cannot vote? There are also some cases in which the registered voters become ineligible in the sense that when they registered as voters they did not have a criminal record but then they violated the law after registration. What is the Government's view regarding people in this category?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY, please ask the Secretary one question first. You can raise your hand later to ask the second question.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, if the Registration and Electoral Office has reasons to believe that certain registered voters are not permanent residents, we would remind the voters in writing according to the data we have in hand. If they are qualified to apply for permanent resident status, we would remind them to do so as soon as possible. If our data show that they are not eligible for registration, we would delete their names from the voter register.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the Government's main reply, the problem of low voter turn-out rate was mentioned. Other than conducting publicity to encourage the citizens to vote, will the Government consider adopting some more innovative methods to encourage more voters to vote on the election day? For example, in the past, voters were not allowed to keep the ballot papers, but in order to increase the voter turn-out rate, can the voters be allowed to keep the ballot papers just like first-day postal covers, to mark the first elections to be held by the SAR?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as our records show, the voter turn-out rate of the elections held in Hong Kong has been incessantly rising, but of course we shall still continue to deliberate on all means to increase the voter turn-out rate of the elections to be held next year. In this regard, we will, with reference to the findings of the survey made by the consultants commissioned in 1995 as I mentioned just now, pay particular attention to the answers of the interviewees as to why they did not register as voters or why they did register but fail to cast their votes in the elections. Focusing on the reasons they gave, we will take into account these factors when we design the modes of publicity or take other steps. One of the methods we have deliberated is to make door-to-door visits as I just mentioned, in the hope that we actually go to make home visits to conduct voter registration. In the course of this exercise, we will leave with them a lot of materials to enable them to acquire an in-depth understanding of the details of the elections in the hope of arousing their interest.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government clearly says that they will make door-to-door visits or what we insiders called "touch door registration". According to our past experiences, those people who are willing to register have already registered whereas those who are reluctant to register will not do so no matter how you urge them. Will the Government be worried that one of the following situations may arise: the first situation is that the Government is unable to increase the registration rate even though it has utterly exhausted its means; another situation is that with the rise in the registration rate, it will only drag down the voter turn-out rate?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we will work according to what we plan and we are not afraid of being utterly exhausted. As revealed by the findings of the 1995 survey, there were indeed many interviewees who indicated that they were not clear or did not know about the information. Some of them even asked if certain convenience can be provided. I believe that the door-to-door registration does provide such convenience to the citizens. This will solve the voters' problem of having to take the trouble, hence abstaining from registration. As for the problem of "if registration rate were high, the voter turn-out rate would even appear lower", we will not refrain from increasing the registration rate because of this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, a total of 10 Members have raised their hands to indicate that they would like to ask supplementary questions, so I will only allow these 10 Members to ask their supplementary questions. Mr Edward HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the voter turn-out rate has always been so low, has the Government considered enforcing mandatory voting?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I have mentioned just now, our voter turn-out rate has been increasing incessantly. As to mandatory voter registration or mandatory voting arrangements, we have also noticed that a few countries have adopted these measures. But after consideration, we find it difficult to implement as the time allowed for the upcoming election is too short, but we will still consider whether this method is feasible and effective.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform us the number of cases of suspected law breaking and corruption in the last Legislative Council elections, and whether the relevant investigations and follow-up actions have been completed? What specific methods will the Government take to prevent the same cases from happening in this elections again?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the information I have in hand, a total of 95 complaint cases in connection with the 1995 Legislative Council elections have been received and among which, 86 cases can be followed up. After investigation, three cases were subject to prosecution.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Eric LI.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the 1995 survey report that the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs has placed so much emphasis, I find one very reasonable factor, and that is, many Hong Kong citizens were out of town on the election day. Since Hong Kong is an international city, numerous people will travel abroad for business trips or study. In order to encourage them to vote, has the Government considered implementing overseas voting, or allowing the people who have sufficient reasons to leave Hong Kong on the election day to vote one day ahead under confidential covers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have considered doing so but we will not make such arrangements for the time being.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Yin-fat.

MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, can the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs tell us when the Government plans to start the voter registration exercise? Will the voter registration for the geographical constituency and functional constituency be held at the same time?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the present schedule, we will conduct the voter registration exercise from December this year to mid-January next year. All kinds of registration will be simultaneously conducted.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Leung-sing.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, just now in the Government's reply to Miss CHOY So-yuk, the publicity and promotion of the specific arrangements for the 1998 Legislative Council elections were mentioned at the very beginning, and it was also said that the purpose of which was to enable voters and candidates to have a clear understanding of the election arrangements and changes. I would like to ask if these changes are brought about because the 1998 elections, held after the establishment of the SAR, are different from the 1995 elections? Besides, in the light of these changes, can the Government provide this Council and the public with a comparison table to enable them to have a clearer picture of the elections?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the specific details, arrangements and changes I mentioned earlier of course include the changes as compared with the arrangements of the last Legislative Council elections, and the form of voting is also included. The Honourable Member has advanced a very good proposal. We will consider compiling a comparison table to be distributed not only to this Council, but also to the press. Or else, we can also publish leaflets. This is a very good idea too.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY So-yuk.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs mentioned that about $400 million will be spent on voter registration and, out of this sum of money, a few tens of millions of dollars will be used as travelling expenses for door-to-door visits. Apart from these tens of millions of dollars, how will the remaining $300-odd million be allocated?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the figure mentioned by Miss CHOY is only our estimated figure. The specific figure will of course have to be approved by the Provisional Legislative Council. According to our present schedule, a quarter of the money will be spent on publicity, while the rest will be spent on making election arrangements, postal charges, increase of manpower, purchase of computer facilities and so on.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I heard just now that the voter turn-out rate has been increasing constantly, has the Government forecast the voter turn-out rate of the 1998 elections?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have said just now that we have not set a specific target. But the goal we are working towards is no matter whether it is the voter turn-out rate or registration rate, it is always the higher the better. Of course, we definitely hope to achieve better than before.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs said that a full-scale voter registration exercise would be conducted for the 1998 elections, which is a measure I fully agree and support. In the past, the political parties of many candidates would conduct registration for the citizens beforehand. After conducting door-to-door visits to secure the citizens' information, they would call up the voters and lobby them to vote for the candidates concerned. As the Government said that it will conduct a full-scale voter registration and actively make door-to-door visits this time, will it still allow individuals to conduct voter registration on their own?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the door-to-door visits I mentioned just now is only one of the ways. We will of course use the old registration methods we have been using.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, Mrs LAM's question is: will individuals be allowed to conduct voter registration before the Government registers the citizens?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Voter registration should be done by the Government. Let me answer the question directly: ordinary citizens are not allowed to make home visits for voter registration.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have some queries about the two answers given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs just now. I find them misleading. Just now ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam, please ask your question. You should not express your personal opinion now.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): I ask my question now. Should the citizens be allowed to register as voters on any one of the 365 days in a year instead of being restricted to a certain period?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): The answer is "yes". The citizens can fill out forms and mail them back to us.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam, are you going to follow up the answer given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs?

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Yes. I think that we should strengthen publicity for all Hong Kong citizens. Since 1985, we, the people who have been involved in election work, found that many citizens are still unclear about this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What was your question?

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Can the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs reinforce the work in this aspect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, yes, we can.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to follow up Miss CHOY's question about fairness just now. Would the Government inform us whether there are organizations in the functional constituency that do not conform to the 12-months requirement? If so, will those organizations be deleted from Schedules 1 and 2 to prevent affecting the representativeness of the functional constituency?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the problem concerning the 12-month requirement mentioned by the Honourable Member earlier has been clearly set out in the Bill. If we know that there are organizations which fail to meet this requirement and if the relevant provisions in the Bill are passed, then those organizations will of course be deleted.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM, I know that you want to raise a supplementary question. In fact, Members are all very concerned about this issue and I believe Members have a lot of proposals and opinions regarding the former voter registrations. So I would like to suggest Members to discuss these problems in the meetings of the Panel concerned.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, point of order.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, though I have some queries about this question, I do not want to stop Members from expressing their views. However, does that mean that you, Madam President, has decided to give up the principle of prohibiting deliberation upon matters in anticipation? This is because the Bill is still under scrutiny, but the part about voter registration is already being questioned Dealing with things by way of Questions is a weaker way, while by way of Bills is the strongest. I hope that we could be given clear and definite instructions. If the principle does not exist anymore, does it mean that we can raise a question whenever we like? I hope you, Madam President, can rule on this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): My ruling is that this question can be raised because the question is not entirely identical with the Bill. Moreover, voter registration is an administrative measure adopted after the passage of the Bill. I believe Mr Andrew WONG should have a thorough understanding on this point. If Members have opinions about this matter, I hope Members can follow up in the Panel concerned. I have already given the ruling, so I do not wish to see Members discuss it anymore here. But if there are points of order, Members may raise them again.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I want to follow up the point of order. My view is that since the Bill has already included voter registration, so the Bill has touched on the scope of Miss CHOY So-yuk's question. I find this questionable. If you think this is purely a technical problem whereas Miss CHOY So-yuk's question is entirely about information, then the scope involved by subsequent supplementary questions basically should not be so extensive. This is my opinion. So, can this question be allowed? The answer may be negative. This has to be ruled by the President. However, the scope of the subsequent supplementary questions should definitely come under a great constraint and cannot be stretched too wide. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, I have already made a ruling. If Members have different views regarding my ruling, I welcome discussions to be held outside the meeting. But we are now holding a meeting and time is very precious. I hope we can proceed with the Questions. Mrs Peggy LAM, is it a point of order? I have ruled just now that this issue has already been discussed repeatedly, no more supplementary question is therefore allowed. I would like to call upon Members to discuss about it in the Panel concerned.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, what I mean is the answer given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs just now was self-contradictory and I would like to point out the contradiction.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions do not serve such a function. If you want to point out his contradiction, you should follow up the matter in the Panel concerned.

Next question. Mrs Peggy LAM.

Woman Health Centres

2.MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): With regard to the woman health centres in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council of:

the total number of such centres at present;
the services provided by such centres and their operating hours;
the average attendance at these centres in each of the past three years; and
the average waiting time for a consultation appointment at these centres?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President,

The Department of Health (DH) currently operates three Woman Health Centres, which are located in Lam Tin, Chai Wan and Tuen Mun respectively. In addition to these centres, some voluntary organizations and medical institutions, such as The Family Planning Association of Hong Kong and the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals, also provide similar physical check-up services for women.
Services provided by DH's Woman Health Centres include health education and counselling, physical examination and laboratory investigations. The centres are open from 9.00 am to 1.00 pm and from 2.00 pm to 5.00 pm on Mondays to Fridays, and from 9.00 am to 1.00 pm on Saturdays.
The three Woman Health Centres of DH were opened in May 1994, March 1996 and March 1997 respectively. Since the first centre opened in 1994, the total number of attendances for consultation at these three centres up to end-July 1997 is 20 985. From May to December 1994, the number of attendances was 2 310. In 1995 and 1996, the number was 4 496 and 7 781 respectively. During the period from January to end-July 1997, the number was 6 398. These figures do not include the number of attendances for health education talks and related activities.
The average waiting time for the first attendance for consultation at DH's Woman Health Centres is about two weeks.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Health and Welfare's reply shows that such preventive check-ups and laboratory investigations are very much welcomed by the women in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the Government has only managed to open one such clinic in Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories respectively in the past three years. This is grossly inadequate indeed. Will the Government plan to set up more clinics of this kind in various districts in the coming years?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, two of the three Women Health Centres of the DH were only opened last year and this year respectively. We will pay attention to the citizens' needs and decide whether more such centres are needed after conducting reviews. Besides, as what I said just now, some voluntary organizations and medical institutions also provide this kind of physical check-up services at reasonable prices. Of course, private clinics and hospitals provide similar services too. If women suspect that they have contracted such kinds of disease, they can always seek help from the DH's out-patient departments as well as maternal and child health centres.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the figures supplied in paragraph (c) of the Secretary for Health and Welfare's main reply show that, in 1996 and the first half of 1997, the average monthly number of women using this kind of centres has increased by 73% and 71% respectively. I would like to ask the Government whether the increase in the facilities provided by the Government have not matched with the citizens' actual needs for such health centres, so that the supply falls short of demand?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe one of the major reasons for the increase in the rate of utilization is that one more Woman Health Centre has gone into operation this year. In the light of our experience, this kind of centres is still capable of attracting more users. The average waiting time for consultation now is only two weeks, whereas the waiting time at the newest Tuen Mun Woman Health Centre is even shorter.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Sai-chu.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, at present, there are only three such centres throughout Hong Kong. In other words, only one such centre is operating in Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories respectively. The New Territories has a bigger population, but only one such centre is being operated in Tuen Mun. I would like to ask the Government whether it should consider setting up one more centre in the New Territories?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the centre set up by the Government at Tuen Mun, New Territories, was only brought into service in March this year. We need more time to observe the citizens' demands in this respect and the quantity of services that other service providers can provide before making a decision.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to know how large is the scale of a Woman Health Centre at present; how much manpower is needed; how much in expenses is estimated to be needed each year; what services are provided; and how much does it charge the patients?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, one such centre needs about seven to 10 staff members, including doctors and nurses. It mainly provides service in the following three areas: firstly, to provide health education and counselling, explaining and promoting ghealthy lifestyles through lectures and discussions, as well as teaching the participants methods of self-examination, knowledge of menopause, ways to prevent cancers and diseases such as osteoporosis; secondly, to provide physical check-ups, including measuring weight, height and blood pressure, heart and chest examinations, as well as breast and pelvic examinations; thirdly, to conduct laboratory tests, which are mainly urine tests and cervical cytoscopy. If the patients have special needs, the centres will carry out other examinations, such as blood test, electrocardiograph, X-ray and so on.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, we can see from the Secretary for Health and Welfare's reply that the soaring number indicates clearly that women, especially those who have passed the middle age, are very concerned about their own physical health. Will the Health and Welfare Bureau consider formulating policies to encourage private bodies or organizations which are financially self-supporting to operate more health centres of this kind?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government welcomes any private organization to take part in providing this kind of preventive health services.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Yin-fat.

MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Can the Secretary for Health and Welfare tell us whether the Government has conducted any publicity to particularly introduce the newly-arrived women immigrants to the services provided by these Woman Health Centres? If so, what is the ratio of the newly-arrived women immigrants to local women in utilizing the facilities? If the Secretary for Health and Welfare does not have such information at hand, a written reply afterwards will also suffice.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the DH introduces the Woman Health Centres and the services provided by putting up posters, distributing publicity pamphlets, setting up telephone hotlines and visiting women organizations and district boards in various districts. As regards new immigrants, every new immigrant arriving at the Hong Kong border would receive a pamphlet published by the Home Affairs Department. The pamphlet will introduce the woman health services provided in Hong Kong, focusing on services provided by the Family Planning Association as well as the maternal and child health centres. Therefore, the immigrants should know where to go and what kind of services they can get. As to the rate of utilization, we do not have the data at hand right now.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEONG Che-hung.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as other Honourable colleagues say, "prevention is always better than cure", so the Woman Health Centres do have an important role to play. Would the Government inform us if a woman is found to have a health problem in such a centre, does the Government have adequate facilities to give treatment to her without delay, especially when the Hospital Authority recently indicated that there was a constant inadequacy of manpower?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, if a woman goes for a check-up in a Woman Health Centre and the doctor there suspects that she needs to undergo further in-depth examinations or even treatment whereas that kind of service is not available in the Centre, the doctor would refer her to a specialist clinic under the Hospital Authority for treatment. These specialist clinics have now adopted a triage system. In other words, subject to the information provided by the doctor who made the referral, if a patient is considered to be in a serious condition, the clinic will accord priority to the case to enable the patient to receive treatment without delay.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third question. Mr Kennedy WONG.

Efficiency of Cross-border Immigration Control

3.MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): In view of the continued growth in the demand for sea, land and air transport as a result of the increasingly close links between Hong Kong and the Mainland following reunification, will the Government inform this Council:

whether consideration will be given to extending the operating hours of the checkpoints at Man Kam To, Huanggang and other piers concerned, so as to facilitate cross-border transportation of travellers and goods;
whether it will discuss with the relevant departments in the Mainland with a view to enhancing the efficiency of the immigration service and streamlining the immigration procedures, through such measures as integrating the immigration departments of Hong Kong and the Mainland as well as replacing Re-entry Permits with the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) identity documents for entering the Mainland; and
given that the new airport is due to open next April and will operate round the clock, whether arrangements will be made with the relevant departments in the Mainland to increase the number of flights between Hong Kong and the Mainland, so that cross-border transportation of travellers and goods can be arranged more flexibly?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,

The opening hours of the road checkpoints at Man Kam To, Sha Tau Kok and Lok Ma Chau were last reviewed in 1994. At that time, the Man Kam To and Lok Ma Chau Crossings were open from 7.00 am to 10.00 pm while the Sha Tau Kok Crossing was open from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm. Following the review, the opening hours of Lok Ma Chau Border Crossing have since November 1994 been extended to 24 hours each day to spread the flow of traffic and to match the 24-hour opening of container terminals in Kwai Chung. We have been closely monitoring the traffic volume of the Man Kam To Crossing to see if it is necessary to extend its operating hours.

On the Sha Tau Kok Crossing, we are discussing with the Guangdong authorities about a proposal to extend the opening hours for two more hours, that is to say, from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm to 7.00 am to 8.00 pm.

We are also closely monitoring the traffic volume at the above boundary crossings and the Lo Wu Crossing and will review their capacity as well as operating hours from time to time to ensure a smooth flow of passengers and goods.

As regards the operation of piers, there are two Ferry Terminals, namely the China Ferry Terminal and the Macau Ferry Terminal, with passenger vessels going to and from mainland China. The operating hours of the former is from 6.00 am to 10.00 pm while the latter is round the clock. The existing operating hours for the China Ferry Terminal is sufficient to cope with the present demand and hence we do not have any intention to further extend the operating hours of the China Ferry Terminal for the time being.

For cargo vessels arriving by sea, immigration, port health and customs clearance are already available 24 hours a day.
We are conscious of the need to enhance efficiency of the Immigration Service and streamline procedures to facilitate ease of travel between Hong Kong and the Mainland, but without compromising the integrity of our immigration control. To this end, we have maintained close liaison with the Mainland authorities. However, under the Basic Law, the exercise of immigration control on entry into, stay in and departure from Hong Kong is a matter within the autonomy of the SAR. There is, therefore, no question of "integrating" the Immigration Department of the SAR with the corresponding department in the Mainland, or any form of joint immigration clearance.

Most Hong Kong residents travel to the Mainland with a Home Visit Permit issued by the Mainland authorities, and a Hong Kong Identity Card. A Hong Kong Re-entry Permit is required in respect of children under the age of 11 and those who have lost their Identity Cards. We are not aware of any plans on the part of Mainland authorities to dispense with the Home Visit Permit, although we believe they are considering improvements to the Home Visit Permit system.
At present there are substantial air services between Hong Kong and the Mainland. We have a total of about 350 round-trip flights with the Mainland every week. With the increasing links between Hong Kong and the Mainland, passenger and goods traffic will likely continue to grow. The matter will be pursued between the authorities concerned in the light of market demand and the opportunities that will arise with the opening of the new airport at Chek Lap Kok.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in parts (a), (b) and (c) of the main reply given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, the word, "we", referring to relevant departments of the Government, has been mentioned many times. In addition, public officers responsible for answering this question include the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, the Secretary for Transport, the Secretary for Security and the Secretary for Economic Services. In other words, the co-ordination of four policy bureaux is needed in order to to provide an answer to this question. Since cross-border transportation between Hong Kong and the Mainland has now become a matter of public concern while many Government departments are involved, for the sake of enhancing efficiency, will the Government consider setting up an inter-departmental working group to co-ordinate and motivate the arrangements?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have already done so. To cope with the different nature of problems, the Government would set up groups for liaison of work internally. Subject to the variety of the problems, different departments will take charge in dealing with them.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, 24-hour immigration clearance service is not available right now for transportation of travellers by land. Will the Government review the relevant measures and provide 24-hour immigration services for traffic by land?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will reply? Please tell me which of your colleagues will reply?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): I would like to invite the Secretary for Security to reply.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to the opening hours at each checkpoint, we would always pay attention to the needs of passenger and goods traffic, and would consider and study ways of improvement with the relevant departments in the Mainland. Of course, we all know that in addition to goods traffic, coaches also travel between Hong Kong and Mainland China. We have 24-hour immigration clearance service at the Lok Ma Chau Border Crossing for the transportation of goods right now, but such service is not available at other checkpoints.

As for the transportation of travellers, we have the general impression that the demand for travellers crossing the border so late at night is not too great. In the meantime, we should not forget that no matter to what time the checkpoints are extended, the Customs and Excise Department and the Immigration Department will certainly need to deploy manpower to provide services, while the checkpoints of Shenzhen also need to consider whether sufficient resources are available. Under the present circumstances, it will necessitate deployment of enormous resources if we extend the operating hours of immigration clearance service for travellers to 24 hours at a certain checkpoint, but will the effect be that much; or would it be more effective if we use the same amount of resources to set up more checkpoints in the daytime?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government has not answered Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's question, in particular the part on the Lo Wu Crossing. Basically, the Lo Wu Crossing opens at 7.00 am at present. This is very inconvenient to the people who have to go to primary schools or factories in Hong Kong and has become the source of considerable public grievances. Even if the Lo Wu Crossing cannot operate round the clock, could the Government discuss with the government officials concerned in the Mainland about opening it one hour earlier?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to immigration clearance, we will of course keep on making improvement by extending the opening hours and increasing manpower. If we identify such a need and resources are available to us and the Mainland to cope with the need, we can of course take this opinion into consideration. However, we do not have plans to do so at the moment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Miriam LAU.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, although the Lok Ma Chau Crossing is operated round the clock now, as far as I know, the number of vehicles crossing the border at night, especially in the small hours of the morning, is in fact relatively low. Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the reasons behind it, and whether it has reviewed this problem with the relevant authorities in the Mainland? Has the Government adopted any measure to encourage more vehicles to cross the border at night in order to relieve traffic congestion in the daytime?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we are also aware that less vehicles use the Lok Ma Chau Crossing at night, and we believe this is because the need for traffic flow in the daytime is greater. Besides, the provision of night-time immigration clearance service has only been put in place for a few years. Since it was launched, there has already been an uprising trend in the traffic volume at night. But up to the present moment, the need to cross the border at night is after all much fewer than that in the daytime.

We do not have the detailed information at hand as to why the night-time traffic volume is much less than that of the daytime. From the viewpoint of controlling traffic flow, we of course hope that the traffic flow can be more evenly spread out during the opening hours of the crossings. However, the time to cross the border will eventually be decided by the drivers and their routings. If in future, we can identify measures to encourage the drivers to use the checkpoints at off-peak hours, we will definitely do so.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the public officers still have not answered Mr Kennedy WONG's question. Mr WONG asked that since many bureaux, including the Constitutional Affairs Bureau, the Transport Bureau and the Security Bureau, are involved, should the Government consider setting up an inter-bureau working group? I hope the three Secretaries of the relevant policy bureaux concerned will give us a reply.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I mentioned just now, there would be sufficient liaison among different government departments to cope with the requirements of our work. Liaison as such is part of our daily work and we do not find it necessary to formalize it by setting up a working group before we can improve our communication.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (c) of the Government's reply, it is mentioned that the departments concerned in Hong Kong and the Mainland will discuss about increasing the domestic flight service between the two places. Will the Government inform us whether it has a timetable in this respect? As is known to all, the new airport will be formally opened in eight months' time. What are the timetable and targets of the Government in this respect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, the new airport is scheduled to be opened in April next year. The time for both parties to discuss arrangements for the domestic flight service will be subject to market demand. If there is a rise in the demand from industry, trade and tourism for increasing the number of flights, the relevant authorities in Hong Kong and Mainland China will of course conduct discussions. If the market has identified such a need, consultation will definitely be held between the two sides.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, as regards the immigration clearance service for both passengers and goods, the Hong Kong Government has done a lot and the waiting time is not too long. Very often, however, while we may open eight or 10 lanes for service during rush hours, the Chinese side only open two or three lanes, and congestion is thus caused. Given that we will communicate with the relevant authorities in the Mainland from time to time, could the Hong Kong Government do something in this respect to enable the immigration clearance service of Hong Kong to be provided at an acceptable speed and ensure that the Chinese side can also cope with the needs for immigration clearance in respect of passenger and goods traffic?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, in case of needs, we can discuss these issues with the Shenzhen checkpoint through the established channels.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to follow up the question I raised just now because it seems that the Government has not answered whether there is a timetable. Will the Government tell us whether there is a timetable for its relevant departments to discuss with their counterparts in the Mainland about increasing the number of domestic flights?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, generally speaking, if our airlines or Mainland airlines think that there is a need to enhance air services, increase the number of flights or make other changes such as altering the destinations, the Governments on both sides will of course negotiate. Therefore, when I replied Mr Kennedy WONG's question a moment ago, I said if such needs arise in the future, the airlines will naturally contact the Government and we will consult with the relevant departments in the Mainland about these issues. For this reason, we would not fix a definite timetable for increasing the number of flights for the time being. All arrangements about air services are, in fact, dependent upon market demand.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, when I raised the question just now, I hoped that all of the Secretaries concerned would give a response. However, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs opined that there is no need to set up an inter-departmental or inter-bureau working group. Do the other Secretaries think the same way too? It seems that the Secretary for Economic Services is very passive as he said that he will only take the issues into consideration when the airlines raise them. Will the Economic Services Bureau itself pay attention to the issue?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which of the Secretaries will reply on behalf of the others? It would be unreasonable for each and every Secretary to rise and make a response. Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would view it this way: with regard to our daily work, there is a close link between Government departments. In case of needs, we would convene departmental meetings, or the so-called working group meetings, on a certain subject. Generally, a certain Department will take the initiative to convene such meetings.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am a bit disappointed at the Secretary for Security's reply just now. At present the border opens at 7.00 am, but the students have to go to school at 7.30 am and the workers have to be back at the factories at 8.00 am. What could they do? The Secretary said that there is no need to make it earlier, why does he think so? Could the Secretary conduct a more serious review and study and give this Council a reply within a certain period of time?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, we do not have such a plan at the moment. I want to reiterate that with regard to the issue of border-crossing, the flow of passenger traffic is rather huge, so that there are demands from various sectors. However, our resources are limited at any one time. When resources are available, we have to weigh and decide: should we inject the new resources or additional resources for setting up more immigration counters during rush hours so as to speed up the flow of traffic at the border and facilitate more people; or should we extend the opening hours until very early in the morning or late at night but less people will be benefited? On a balance of the pros and cons, we think that we had better inject our resources mainly into providing more counters at the time when the flow of passenger and goods traffic is relatively high.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, I think it is almost time for us to end this question now. I know Members are not necessarily satisfied with certain replies, so I suggest once again that Members may follow up the matter in the relevant Panels.

Fourth question. Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

Employment of Fresh Graduates of Colleges of Education

4.DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): It is reported that the ratio between the number of applicants registered for teaching posts and the number of teachers' vacancies in primary and secondary schools this year is the highest in six years. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council:

of the employment situation of fresh graduates of the Colleges of Education, particularly the data in respect of the following:
1. the number of fresh graduates this year;
2. the number of teachers' vacancies in primary and secondary schools this year;
3. an up-to-date breakdown of the unsuccessful applicants for teaching posts according to the subjects in which they have been trained;
4. whether the Administration has any plans to assist fresh graduates of the Colleges of Education in securing teaching posts; if so, what the details are; if not, why not; and
whether the Administration has any plans to reduce the number of students in each class in primary and secondary schools; if so, what the details are and when the plans will come into effect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to information of the Education Department's Teacher Recruitment Information Service (TRIS), from the period 24 March to 5 September 1997, the total number of intending teachers who have registered an interest in teaching jobs, and the number of vacancies registered by schools were 4 181 and 294 respectively. I would like to stress here that the 294 vacancies only reflect cases where schools wished to seek the assistance of the TRIS in recruitment. It does not represent the full picture of vacancies this year as aided and private schools are free to conduct their own teacher recruitment through other channels, including advertisements in newspapers. Indeed, the total number of teaching vacancies in both primary and secondary schools this year stood at 3 000. Of these, about 1 980 were non-graduate teacher posts, which are suitable for appointment of graduates of the Hong Kong Institute of Education (HKIEd).

Against this background, my answer to the various parts of Dr the Honourable Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin's question is as follows:

Regarding the employment situation of fresh graduates of the HKIEd:
1. There were 693 graduates of the Certificate of Education (Primary) course and 434 graduates of the Certificate of Education (Secondary) course in the 1996-97 academic year;
2. There were about 1 650 teaching vacancies in primary schools this year, of which 1 580 were non-graduate posts; and 1 350 vacancies in secondary schools, of which about 400 were non-graduate posts. The total number of non-graduate teacher vacancies therefore was about 1 980 this year;
3. The HKIEd conducted a preliminary survey on the employment situation of its fresh graduates on 5 August to 20 August 1997. Of the 738 respondents, 185 (around 25%) were still searching for jobs. Of these 185 graduates, only 179 have given information on their respective elective subjects. Briefly, of the 111 job seeking Certificate of Education (Primary) graduates, a broad picture of the elective subjects they took is as follows: 56 (around 50%) Social Studies, 16 (around 14%) English, 13 (around 12%) Art and Craft, and 10 (around 9%) Science. Of the 68 job-seeking Certificate of Education (Secondary) graduates, 31 (around 46%) were trained in Chinese/Chinese History, 11 (around 16%) in English, 6 (around 9%) in Mathematics and 4 (around 6%) in Geography. The rest took various other subjects which do not fall into any particular pattern.
  
  It should be noted that for the Certificate of Education (Primary) course, students are trained in a core curriculum consisting of three subjects including Chinese, Mathematics and General Studies, plus a fourth subject which is an elective. For the Certificate of Education (Secondary) course, each student is trained in two elective subjects.
In order to help intending teachers find jobs, the Education Department operates a TRIS every year. Those interested in finding a teaching job can directly register their personal details and academic qualifications with the TRIS, which are put into a computer data bank and will be followed up. This service has been provided to HKIEd students. Aided and private schools with vacancies can obtain information about intending teachers through the TRIS and directly contact them for interview. However, as I said just now, aided and private schools are free to conduct their own teacher recruitment without going through the TRIS or the Education Department.

The Student Affairs Office of HKIEd also provides employment service to its students. Letters were sent to all principals in Hong Kong early this year requesting information on teaching vacancies and the information collected was subsequently made available to students. To assist graduates who are still searching for jobs, the Student Affairs Office is continuing its effort to seek the latest information and to contact the educational and relevant social service organizations, with a view to providing the graduates concerned with up-to-date job messages.
To improve the quality of teaching and learning in schools, in the 1993-94 school year, the Government has reduced the number of pupils per class for Primary One level to 35 for traditional classes and to 30 for those adopting the activity approach. This has since been extended to other levels. In the 1997-98 school year, the reduction in class size is being extended to Primary Five. It must be stressed that the prime objective of smaller classes is to enhance the quality of teaching and learning in schools, not to tackle the supply and demand situation of teachers.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask the Government, given that a substantial number of new immigrants have arrived in Hong Kong and the class sizes have kept shrinking, why are there still so many graduates of colleges of education unemployed? It we look at this phenomenon from the perspective of supply and demand, it is comparatively incomprehensible. On the other hand, it is reported that as qualified teachers are insufficient, the Government has considered recruiting overseas qualified teachers. What are the factors leading to this situation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I trust the problem we have this year is only a short-term one and it can be solved. We have reasons to believe that this is a very special year in which many of the newly recruited teachers are emigrants returning from abroad. Moreover, in view of the favourable situation in Hong Kong as at present, a lot of teachers have decided not to apply for early retirement. Figures show that the wastage rate of teachers has dropped prominently this year. For example, the wastage rate of teachers in 1991 was as high as 10.6%. It was 8.7% in 1994 and dropped to 6.2% - 6.7% last year. The situation has apparently been stablized.

With the fall in one aspect and the rise in another, graduates will naturally face more competitions when they look for jobs. This is the first problem, but we believe this phenomenon will be short-lived. Why are we able to say so with confidence? This is because with the increase in the number of new immigrant students, coupled with a bid to tie in with the future development of whole-day schooling in primary schools, and to improve teaching qualities, it is estimated that more than a thousand teaching posts will be created in the coming four years. Dr TSO WONG Man-yin's second question mentioned the importation of foreign teachers. We have clarified this point earlier in the University Grants Committee (UGC). The Chief Executive announced in his inaugural speech that, in the foreseeable future, all newly recruited primary and secondary school teachers ought to be university graduates and should have received teacher's training. In this respect, the UGC has consented, on the invitation of the Education and Manpower Bureau, to study how the proposal can be implemented and assess the proposal's financial impact on education as a whole. Since at the present stage the relevant work is still underway, any talk about the importation of expatriate teachers is a mere guess. The UPC will present the report and proposal to the Education and Manpower Bureau as well as the Chief Executive early next year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council how the Administration calculates the number of new teaching posts needed each year by all primary and secondary schools in general? If there is any miscalculation which leads to supply falling short of demand or vice versa, how is the Administration going to make remedies?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Education Department will conduct a teacher survey in each school every year between September and October after the school term begins. While the information obtained is used as data for planning, the Education Department will also provide the HKIEd with information on supply and demand of teaching posts every year. The HKIEd will also keep close contact with the Education Department and make suitable adjustments whenever necessary, especially in the number of new students recruited, and it is, therefore, fairly flexible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, while the return of emigrated teachers have made it difficult for the prospective teachers to find jobs, could the prospective teachers really apply what they have learned in the curriculum offered by the HKIEd for teaching purposes? Has the Government considered reviewing the overall development of the HKIEd? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as what I said earlier, since the Chief Executive has announced as the target of his policy that, in the foreseeable future, newly recruited teachers of secondary and primary schools should all be university graduates and should have received teacher training, we are currently making a comprehensive review and formulating the direction for the future development of the HKIEd. This is very vital, the impact of which is far reaching. This is because, in general, the students trained by the HKIEd at present are mostly non-graduate teachers. Regarding the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's question as to whether the Government would review the curriculum, our answer is positive. In fact, I had met with the Director of Education and the Principal of the HKIEd in the past few days to study whether the recruitment of new students and the selection of subjects should be conducted in a stricter manner. This is because a lot of students would otherwise take easier elective subjects such as Chinese, Chinese History or Social Studies, leading to an oversupply of teachers in certain subjects. We hope to encourage students to take more cultural subjects such as domestic science, physical education, music, art and craft and so on, with a view to achieving a balanced development.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): I wonder if the Government could give us a timetable stating how many years it will take to really get it done?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this important issue is under serious deliberation at the moment. While we will speed up our pace, but the timetable will be published later in due course.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TSANG Yok-sing.

MR TSANG YOK SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council what will impact the future whole-day schooling make on the ratio between the number of teachers and students in primary schools and on the demand and supply of teachers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we reckon that there will definitely be improvements in the ratio between the number of teachers and students. If whole-day schooling is to be implemented, we roughly estimate that we will need an addition of 100-odd new teachers, and the ratio will be improved gradually from 1.3 to 1.5.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council whether the future review of the training of certificated teachers mentioned by the Secretary just now will be a comprehensive review, which includes reviewing the exact roles the universities are now playing in training certificated teachers, rather than being restricted to reviewing how the HKIEd establish its certificating standards?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this is a very good question. The UGC is now carrying out a comprehensive review which is not restricted to the HKIEd. This is because the University of Hong Kong, the Chinese University of Hong Kong, the Open University of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Baptist University are all offering teacher training programmes, in particular degree courses and postgraduate courses. Therefore, our review this time is an all-rounded and comprehensive one.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fifth question. Mr James TIEN.

Publicizing Current Labour Legislation

5.MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Recently, many employers have indicated that they do not quite understand the contents and implications of the various labour-related Ordinances passed by the former Legislative Council ─ such as the various Employment (Amendment) Ordinances, as well as the Ordinances relating to occupational safety and health and anti-discrimination ─ and that this may easily result in their contravening labour legislation inadvertently. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council whether the relevant government departments have any specific plans to explain to the industrial and commercial sectors the contents and implications of these new legislation; if not, whether the Government will take corresponding measures as soon as possible so as to assist the industrial and commercial sectors in understanding the contents and implications of the new legislation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as has been the practice for many years, the Labour Department organizes a wide variety of promotional activities to publicize any newly enacted labour-related legislation or amendments to existing legislation. The main targets are employers, personnel practitioners and representatives from trade unions.

The Labour Department has already stepped up its publicity efforts for the several important pieces of labour legislation that were passed by the former Legislative Council in the past few months. For example, to promote the awareness and understanding of the new Occupational Safety and Health Ordinance (OSHO) and the major amendments to the Employment Ordinance (EO), the Labour Department has:

Apart from the above, the Department is planning to organize a series of activities to promote the new Occupational Safety and Health Regulation (OSHR), which will come into effect later this year. These will include a major seminar for the retail, banking/financial services and education sectors and a series of guide books on various housekeeping and fire prevention topics for the non-industrial sectors. The Occupational Safety and Health Council has been working hand in hand with the Labour Department on many such activities. The Council has also been promoting the OSHO and the OSHR in its publication Green Cross and in many of its own public events and promotional activities. For instance, the OSHO will be the main theme in the Council's major annual event, namely the Occupational Safety and Health Week, to be held in October this year. The Council has also organized a series of training courses, for instance, courses on manual handling operation, to tie in with the introduction of the OSHO and OSHR. As for the recent amendments to the EO, the Department will organize a major seminar with around 500 participants and launch a radio programme with Radio Television Hong Kong by the end of this year.

With regard to the Sex Discrimination Ordinance and the Disability Discrimination Ordinance, the Equal Opportunities Commission has also organized a series of education and promotion programmes including the publication of Code of Practices on Employment, Good Management Practice Series and newsletters, and the organization of talks and seminars for business and employers' organizations. These activities aim to familiarize the employers and employees with their rights and obligations under these two Ordinances.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. First of all, I would like to thank the Secretary for having done so much work for the Government. We have organized a number of seminars, printed information leaflets for distribution and responded to tens of thousands of telephone enquiries. The Government has planned to organize a major seminar with 500 participants by the end of this year. It has been the past practice for each seminar to be held with only one ordinance as the focus. It might be about "occupational safety", "anti-discrimination", or even "equal opportunities". All of the seminars can be said to be independent of one another. Will the Government tell us if it is possible to organize events on a more comprehensive and bigger scale such as the staging of large-scale activities over a few consecutive days, so as to introduce all the relevant legislation to the employers and employees?