Provisional Legislative Council

PLC Paper No. CB(3) 148

Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday
3 September 1997 at 2:30 pm

Members present:

President
The Hon Mrs Rita FAN, JP
The Hon WONG Siu-yee
The Hon David CHU Yu-lin
The Hon HO Sai-chu, JP
The Hon Edward HO Sing-tin, JP
Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, JP
The Hon NG Leung-sing
Prof Hon NG Ching-fai
The Hon LEE Kai-ming
The Hon Allen LEE, JP
The Hon Mrs Elsie TU, GBM
The Hon Mrs Selina CHOW, JP
The Hon Henry WU
The Hon NGAI Shiu-kit, JP
The Hon Henry TANG Ying-yen, JP
The Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP
The Hon YUEN Mo
The Hon MA Fung-kwok
The Hon CHEUNG Hon-chung
Dr Hon Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin
The Hon LEUNG Chun-ying, JP
Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP
The Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, JP
The Hon MOK Ying-fan
The Hon CHAN Choi-hi
The Hon CHAN Yuen-han
The Hon CHAN Wing-chan
The Hon CHAN Kam-lam
The Hon TSANG Yok-sing
The Hon CHENG Kai-nam
The Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
The Hon Andrew WONG Wang-fat, JP
Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
The Hon Kennedy WONG Ying-ho
The Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
Dr Hon Charles YEUNG Chun-kam
The Hon YEUNG Yiu-chung
The Hon IP Kwok-him
The Hon CHIM Pui-chung
The Hon Bruce LIU Sing-lee
The Hon LAU Kong-wah
The Hon LAU Wong-fat, JP
The Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, JP
The Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
The Hon CHENG Yiu-tong
Dr Hon TANG Siu-tong, JP
The Hon KAN Fook-yee
The Hon NGAN Kam-chuen
The Hon LO Suk-ching
Dr Hon LAW Cheung-kwok
The Hon TAM Yiu-chung, JP
The Hon CHOY So-yuk

Members absent:

The Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, JP
The Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, JP
Dr Hon David LI Kwok-po, JP
The Hon Mrs Peggy LAM, JP
The Hon HUI Yin-fat, JP
The Hon CHOY Kan-pui, JP
The Hon Paul CHENG Ming-fun, JP
The Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting

Public officers attending:

The Honourable Mrs Anson CHAN, JP

The Chief Secretary for Administration

The Honourable Donald TSANG Yam-kuen, JP

The Financial Secretary

The Honourable Elsie LEUNG Oi-sie, JP

The Secretary for Justice

Mr Nicholas NG Wing-fui, JP

Secretary for Transport

Mr Joseph WONG Wing-ping, JP

Secretary for Education and Manpower

Mr Peter LAI Hing-ling, JP

Secretary for Security

Mr LAM Woon-kwong, JP

Secretary for the Civil Service

Mrs Rita LAU NG Wai-lan, JP

Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport

Mr Gregory LEUNG Wing-lup, JP

Secretary for Health and Welfare

Clerks in attendance:

Mr Ricky FUNG Choi-cheung, JP,

Secretary General

Miss Pauline NG Man-wah,

Assistant Secretary General (1)

Mr Ray CHAN Yum-mou,

Assistant Secretary General (3)

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Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Miscellaneous

Technical Memorandum for Supervision Plans

Questions

1. Mr MA Fung-kwok asked Question 1.

The Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport replied.

Five Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Broadcasting, Culture and Sport replied.

2. Mrs Elsie TU asked Question 2.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Three Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

3. Mr CHAN Choi-hi asked Question 3.

The Secretary for Education and Manpower replied.

Six Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Education and Manpower replied.

4. Mr LO Suk-ching asked Question 4.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Three Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

5. Mr CHENG Yiu-tong asked Question 5.

The Secretary for Education and Manpower replied.

Four Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Education and Manpower replied.

6. Mr IP Kwok-him asked Question 6.

The Secretary for Justice replied.

Four Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Justice replied.

Written replies to Questions 7 to 19 were tabled for Members' information.

Bills

Second Reading

Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1997

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which had been moved on 20 August 1997.

Question on Second Reading put and agreed to.

Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

Committee Stage

The Council went into Committee and considered the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1997.

Question that the following clauses stand part of the Bill proposed.

Question on clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to.

The Council then resumed.

Third Reading

The Chief Secretary for Administration reported that

the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1997

had passed through Committee without amendment. She moved that the Bill be read the third time and do pass.

Question on the Third Reading proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.

Members' Motions

Council emblem

Dr C H LEONG moved the motion in Appendix I and addressed the Council.

Question on the motion proposed.

A Member spoke on the motion.

Dr C H LEONG replied.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

Setting up of "Senior citizen's Paradise"

Mr WONG Siu-yee moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council urges the Government to consider setting up of "Senior citizen's Paradise", so as to provide the elderly with the opportunity to develop their potential, and enable them to receive higher quality and more comprehensive geriatric care.

Question on the motion proposed.

Four Members spoke on the motion.

At 4:45 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Another six Members and the Secretary for Health and Welfare spoke on the motion.

At 5:29 pm, the President resumed the chair.

Mr WONG Siu-yee replied.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

Supervising Hong Kong railways

Mr LAU Kong-wah moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That as the railways in Hong Kong will soon launch vast development projects, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously set up an independent statutory organization tasked with the responsibility of coordinating and regulating each development project as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways; and also requests the two railway companies to increase their transparency and accountability, so as to attain the targets of meeting public's interests and adhering to the principle of prudent commercial operations.

Question on Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion proposed. The President stated that Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung and Mr CHAN Choi-hi had separately given notices to move amendments to the motion. She proposed that the motion and the three proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the three proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate.

In response to Dr LAW Cheung-Kwok's request, the President explained the reason for her ruling out of order his proposed amendment to Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's proposed amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion.

The President stated that in both Mr LAU's original motion and Mr CHEUNG's proposed amendment, the subject matter referred to the railways and the railway companies. However, Dr LAW's proposed amendment sought to expand the scope of the matter for debate, by seeking to refer to all public transport enterprises and all modes of public transport. As amendments to motions must not seek to exceed the scope of the original motions, she had ruled Dr LAW's proposed amendment out of order.

Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung and Mr CHAN Choi-hi addressed the Council on the motion and their proposed amendments respectively.

Six Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Mr LAU Kong-wah spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for Transport spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Mrs Miriam LAU moved the following amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion:

To delete "expeditiously set up an independent statutory organization tasked with the responsibility of coordinating and regulating each development project as well as supervising the ticketing systems and fares of each of the railways" and subsitute with "undertake a comprehensive review for the purposes of strengthening the planning and coordination of each development project and the supervision of the ticketing and fare systems of each of the railways".

Question on Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion proposed and put.

Mr Edward HO and Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 34 votes for the amendment, 11 votes against it and two abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix II.) She declared that Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion was agreed.

The President granted leave for Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung to revise the terms of his amendment.

Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung moved the following revised amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU:

To add ";the Government should also expand the composition and terms of reference of the Transport Advisory Committee, so as to enable the Committee to strengthen the supervision of the service and ticketing systems of each of the railways and examine their fare" after "prudent commercial operations".

Question on Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's revised amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU proposed and put.

As the President could not judge from the voice vote whether the "ayes" had it or the "noes" had it, she ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 26 votes for the amendment, 17 votes against it and four abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix III.) She declared that Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU was agreed.

The President granted leave for Mr CHAN Choi-hi to revise the terms of his amendment.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi moved the following revised amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and further amended by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung:

To add ", and amend the relevant legislation to require the two railway companies to seek the prior approval of the legislature before increasing their fares" after "examine their fares".

Question on Mr CHAN Choi-hi's revised amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and further amended by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung proposed and put.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there was one vote for the amendment, 42 votes against it and no abstention. (Voting record in Appendix IV.) She declared that Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment to Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and further amended by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung was negatived.

Mr LAU Kong-wah replied.

Question on Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and further amended by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung put.

Mrs Miriam LAU claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 24 votes for the motion, 13 votes against it and three abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix V.) She declared that Mr LAU Kong-wah's motion as amended by Mrs Miriam LAU and further amended by Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung was carried.

Next meeting

The President declared that the next meeting of the Council would be held on 10 September 1997 at 2:30 pm.

The meeting was adjourned at 7:32 pm.

(Mrs Rita FAN)
President
Council Chamber
Hong Kong