Provisional Legislative Council

PLC Paper No. CB(3) 70

Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday
23 July 1997 at 2:30 pm

Members present:

President
The Hon Mrs Rita FAN, JP
The Hon WONG Siu-yee
The Hon David CHU Yu-lin
The Hon HO Sai-chu, JP
The Hon Edward HO Sing-tin, JP
Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, JP
The Hon NG Leung-sing
Prof Hon NG Ching-fai
The Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, JP
Dr Hon David LI Kwok-po, JP
The Hon LEE Kai-ming
The Hon Mrs Elsie TU, GBM
The Hon Mrs Selina CHOW, JP
The Hon Mrs Peggy LAM, JP
The Hon Henry WU
The Hon NGAI Shiu-kit, JP
The Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP
The Hon YUEN Mo
The Hon MA Fung-kwok
The Hon CHEUNG Hon-chung
Dr Hon Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin
The Hon LEUNG Chun-ying, JP
Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP
The Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, JP
The Hon HUI Yin-fat, JP
The Hon CHAN Choi-hi
The Hon CHAN Yuen-han
The Hon CHAN Wing-chan
The Hon CHAN Kam-lam
The Hon TSANG Yok-sing
The Hon CHENG Kai-nam
The Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
The Hon Andrew WONG Wang-fat, JP
Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
The Hon Kennedy WONG Ying-ho
The Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
Dr Hon Charles YEUNG Chun-kam
The Hon YEUNG Yiu-chung
The Hon IP Kwok-him
The Hon CHIM Pui-chung
The Hon LAU Kong-wah
The Hon LAU Wong-fat, JP
The Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, JP
The Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
The Hon CHOY Kan-pui, JP
The Hon CHENG Yiu-tong
Dr Hon TANG Siu-tong, JP
The Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting
The Hon KAN Fook-yee
The Hon NGAN Kam-chuen
The Hon LO Suk-ching
Dr Hon LAW Cheung-kwok
The Hon TAM Yiu-chung, JP
The Hon CHOY So-yuk

Members absent:

The Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, JP
The Hon Allen LEE, JP
The Hon Henry TANG Ying-yen, JP
The Hon MOK Ying-fan
The Hon Bruce LIU Sing-lee
The Hon Paul CHENG Ming-fun, JP

Public officers attending:

The Honourable Mrs Anson CHAN, JP

The Chief Secretary for Administration

The Honourable Donald TSANG Yam-kuen, JP

The Financial Secretary

The Honourable Elsie LEUNG Oi-sie, JP

The Secretary for Justice

Mr Nicholas NG Wing-fui, JP

Secretary for Constitutional Affairs

Mrs Katherine FOK LO Shiu-ching, JP

Secretary for Health and Welfare

Mr Joseph WONG Wing-ping, JP

Secretary for Education and Manpower

Mr Bowen LEUNG Po-wing, JP

Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands

Mr KWONG Ki-chi, JP

Secretary for the Treasury

Mr LAM Woon-kwong, JP

Secretary for the Civil Service

Mr KWONG Hon-sang, JP

Secretary for Works

Mrs Carrie YAU TSANG Ka-lai, JP

Secretary for Security

Clerks in attendance:

Mr Ricky FUNG Choi-cheung, JP,

Secretary General

Mr LAW Kam-sang, JP,

Deputy Secretary General

Mrs Justina LAM CHENG Bo-ling,

Assistant Secretary General (2)

Mr Ray CHAN Yum-mou,

Assistant Secretary General (3)

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Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Sessional Papers

No. 1	-	Clothing Industry Training Authority Annual Report 1996
No. 2	-	Construction Industry Training Authority Annual Report 1996

Report

Mr Howard YOUNG, Chairman of the Bills Committee, presented the Report of the Bills Committee on the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Passports Bill and addressed the Council.

Questions

1. Mrs Elsie TU asked Question 1.

The Secretary for Justice replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Justice replied.

2. Dr C H LEONG asked Question 2.

The Secretary for Health and Welfare replied.

Six Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Health and Welfare replied.

3. Mr IP Kwok-him asked Question 3.

The Secretary for Security replied.

A Member asked one supplementary and the Secretary for Security replied.

4. Mr LAU Kong-wah asked Question 4.

The Secretary for Works replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Works replied.

5. Mr NGAN Kam-chuen asked Question 5.

The Secretary for Works replied.

10 Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Works replied.

6. Mr LO Suk-ching asked Question 6.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Seven Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

Written replies to Questions 7 to 18 were tabled for Members' information.

Motions

Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance

The Secretary for Justice moved the motion in Appendix I and addressed the Council.

Question on the motion proposed.

Two Members spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Justice replied.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

Public Finance Ordinance

The Secretary for the Treasury moved the motion in Appendix II and addressed the Council.

Question on the Secretary for the Treasury's motion proposed. The President stated that Mr NGAN Kam-chuen had given notice to move an amendment to the motion. She proposed that the motion and the proposed amendment be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the proposed amendment be debated together in a joint debate.

Mr NGAN Kam-chuen moved the following amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion and addressed the Council:

That the motion to be moved by the Secretary for the Treasury under section 29 of the Public Finance Ordinance (Cap.2) at the Provisional Legislative Council meeting on 23 July 1997 be amended by deleting paragraph 4(b) and substituting -

"(b) after the deduction of all of the expenses relating to the administration and management of the Land Fund, all accounts receivable and all sums earned by way of investment revenue (excluding all sums earned by way of interest or dividends) relating to the investment of the Land Fund and all sums earned from the sale or other disposal of all or part of any assets of the Land Fund;".

Question on Mr NGAN Kam-chuen's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion proposed.

13 Members spoke on the motion and the amendment.

The Secretary for the Treasury spoke on the amendment.

Question on Mr NGAN Kam-chuen's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion put.

Miss CHAN Yuen-han claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 15 votes for the amendment, 29 votes against it and three abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix III.) She declared that Mr NGAN Kam-chuen's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion was negatived.

Question on the Secretary for the Treasury's original motion put and agreed to.

Bills

First Reading

Electoral Affairs Commission Bill
Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997
Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997

The Bills were read the first time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading

Electoral Affairs Commission Bill

The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997
Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997

The Secretary for the Treasury moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council on each of the above two Bills.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debates on the above Bills were adjourned and the Bills were referred to the House Committee.

Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Passports Bill

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which had been moved on 9 July 1997.

Three Members spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Question on Second Reading put and agreed to.

Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

Chinese Nationality (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which had been moved on 9 July 1997.

A Member spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Question on Second Reading put and agreed to.

Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

Committee Stage

The Council went into Committee and considered the following Bills:

Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Passports Bill

Question that the following clauses and schedule stand part of the Bill proposed.

Question on clauses 1, 3, 6, 7 and 10 to 15 put and agreed to.

The Secretary for Security moved amendments to clauses 2, 4, 5, 8 and 9 and addressed the Committee.

Question on the amendments put and agreed to.

Question that clauses 2, 4, 5, 8 and 9, as amended, stand part of the Bill put and agreed to.

New clause 9A, the heading before new clause 11A and new clause 11A read the first time.

The Secretary for Security moved the Second Reading of new clause 9A, the heading before new clause 11A and new clause 11A and addressed the Committee.

Question on the Second Reading of new clause 9A, the heading before new clause 11A and new clause 11A proposed, put and agreed to.

New clause 9A, the heading before new clause 11A and new clause 11A read the second time.

The Secretary for Security moved the addition of new clause 9A, the heading before new clause 11A and new clause 11A to the Bill.

Question on the addition proposed, put and agreed to.

The Secretary for Security moved an amendment to the schedule and addressed the Committee.

Question on the amendment put and agreed to.

Question that the schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill put and agreed to.

Chinese Nationality (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Question that the following clauses and schedule stand part of the Bill proposed.

Question on clauses 1, 2 and 4 to 7 put and agreed to.

The Secretary for Security moved an amendment to clause 3 and addressed the Committee.

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question that clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill put and agreed to.

Question on the schedule put and agreed to.

The Council then resumed.

Third Reading

The Secretary for Security reported that

the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Passports Bill and the Chinese Nationality (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

had passed through Committee with amendments. She moved that these two Bills be read the third time and do pass.

Question on the Third Reading of the two Bills proposed, put and agreed to.

Bills read the third time and passed.

Members' Motions

Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance

Dr C H LEONG moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That in relation to the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Rules and Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Fees Rules, published as Legal Notices Nos. 384 and 385 of 1997 respectively and laid on the table of the Provisional Legislative Council on 9 July 1997, the period referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap.1) for amending subsidiary legislation be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 20 August 1997.

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

Reduction of rates percentage charge

Mr NGAN Kam-chuen moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council urges the Special Administrative Region Government to pay a fiscal dividend to the people of Hong Kong by expeditiously reducing by 40% the overall rates percentage charge from 5% to 3%.

Question on the motion proposed.

A Member spoke on the motion.

At 6:45 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Another 11 Members and the Secretary for the Treasury spoke on the motion.

The President resumed the chair at 7:43 pm.

Mr NGAN Kam-chuen replied.

Question on the motion put.

Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Mrs Selina CHOW and Mr Ronald ARCULLI claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 28 votes for the motion, nine votes against it and six abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix IV.) She declared that the motion was carried.

Reduction of taxes

Mr Ronald ARCULLI moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council urges the Government to reduce profits and salaries taxes as well as consider implementing other revenue measures that may be proposed by Members of this Council for the 1998-99 Budget so as to strive to achieve fiscal balance.

Question on Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion proposed. The President stated that Dr LAW Cheung-kwok and Mr CHAN Choi-hi had separately given notices to move amendments to the motion. She proposed that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate.

Dr LAW Cheung-kwok and Mr CHAN Choi-hi addressed the Council on the motion and their proposed amendments respectively.

Ten Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Mr Ronald ARCULLI spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for the Treasury spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Dr LAW Cheung-kwok moved the following amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion:

To delete "reduce profits and salaries taxes as well as consider implementing other revenue measures that may be proposed by Members of this Council for the 1998-99 Budget so as to strive to achieve fiscal balance" and substitute with "set up a Tax Review Committee to consider tax reforms in various aspects, which include, inter alia, (1) introducing a moderate progressive tax system; and (2) establishing new forms of tax relief (such as allowance for interest payment on first-time home buying, allowance for research and development as an incentive for enterprises, as well as reduction of salaries tax to alleviate the burden on lower and middle income groups); and that this Council considers that in order to avoid weakening the fiscal foundation of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government, it is inappropriate to reduce profits tax at the present stage; and furthermore, in view of the substantial fiscal reserve held currently by the Government, it should increase expenditure so as to improve the livelihood and welfare of the people and to ameliorate the aggravating disparity between the rich and the poor".

Question on Dr LAW Cheung-kwok's amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion proposed and put.

Dr LAW Cheung-kwok claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were six votes for the amendment, 33 votes against it and two abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix V.) She declared that Dr LAW Cheung-kwok's amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion was negatived.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi moved the following amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion:

To delete "profits and salaries taxes" and substitute with "salaries tax, conduct a comprehensive review of the tax system,"; to delete "that may be"; and to add "in compliance with the relevant provisions in the Basic Law" after "to achieve fiscal balance".

Question on Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion proposed and put.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 13 votes for the amendment, 27 votes against it and one abstention. (Voting record in Appendix VI.) She declared that Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment to Mr Ronald ARCULLI's motion was negatived.

Mr Ronald ARCULLI replied.

Question on Mr Ronald ARCULLI's original motion put.

Mr Ronald ARCULLI claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 25 votes for the motion, 12 votes against it and four abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix VII.) She declared that Mr Ronald ARCULLI's original motion was carried.

Review of education

Mr David CHU moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council asks the Special Administrative Region Government to conduct a comprehensive, non-partisan and non-elitist review of education in the new era, with the aims of addressing the educational problems left behind by the colonial legacy and of attaining the goal of helping our youths achieve excellence in the 21st century.

Question on Mr David CHU's motion proposed. The President stated that Mr CHAN Choi-hi had given notice to move an amendment to the motion and that Prof NG Ching-fai had also given notice to move an amendment to Mr CHAN's proposed amendment. She proposed that the motion, the amendment and the amendment to the amendment be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the amendments be debated together in a joint debate.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi moved the following amendment to Mr David CHU's motion and addressed the Council:

To delete "asks" and substitute with "requests"; to delete ", non-partisan and non-elitist" and substitute with "and extensive"; and to delete "in the new era, with the aims of addressing the educational problems left behind by the colonial legacy and of attaining the goal of helping our youths achieve excellence in the 21st Century" and substitute with "to help local students attain all-round training and development covering ethics, intellect, physical well-being, social skills and aesthetics, and to strengthen their sense of civic responsibility, nationalism and knowledge of the Basic Law".

Question on Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment to Mr David CHU's motion proposed.

Prof NG Ching-fai moved the following amendment to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's proposed amendment and addressed the Council:

To add "in the territory" after "review of education"; to delete "help" and substitute with "enable"; to add "to" after "local students"; to delete "all-round training and development" and substitute with "an overall improvement in the areas"; to delete "social skills" and substitute with "team spirit"; to delete "and" before "to strengthen"; to delete "," of "responsibility," and substitute with "and"; and to delete "and knowledge of the Basic Law" and substitute with ", and to broaden their international vision so as to enhance the quality and competitiveness of our students in resonance with the needs of Hong Kong's development in the 21st century".

Question on Prof NG Ching-fai's amendment to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment proposed.

A Member spoke on the motion and the amendments.

At 10:15 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Another 10 Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

At 11:06 pm, the President resumed the chair.

The President invited Mr CHAN Choi-hi to speak for the second time on Prof NG Ching-fai's amendment.

Mr David CHU spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for Education and Manpower spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Question on Prof NG Ching-fai's amendment to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment put. The President stated that she thought the amendment had been agreed.

Mr David CHU and Miss CHAN Yuen-han claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to proceed to a division under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 23 votes for the amendment, 11 votes against it and one abstention. (Voting record in Appendix VIII.) She declared that Prof NG Ching-fai's amendment to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment was agreed.

Question on Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment, as amended by Prof NG Ching-fai, to Mr David CHU's motion put and agreed to.

Mr David CHU replied.

Question on Mr David CHU's motion as amended by Mr CHAN Choi-hi's amendment which had been amended by Prof NG Ching-fai put and agreed to.

Next meeting

The President declared that the next meeting of the Council would be held on 20 August 1997 at 2:30 pm.

The meeting was adjourned at 11:35 pm.

(Mrs Rita FAN)
President

Council Chamber
Hong Kong