Council meeting (Minutes) 26 Nov 97

Provisional Legislative Council

PLC Paper No. CB(3) 395

Minutes of the meeting held on
Wednesday 26 November 1997 at 2:30 pm

Members Present:

President
The Hon Mrs Rita FAN, JP
The Hon WONG Siu-yee
The Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, JP
The Hon David CHU Yu-lin
The Hon HO Sai-chu, JP
The Hon Edward HO Sing-tin, JP
Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, JP
The Hon NG Leung-sing
Prof Hon NG Ching-fai
The Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, JP
Dr Hon David LI Kwok-po, JP
The Hon LEE Kai-ming
The Hon Allen LEE, JP
The Hon Mrs Elsie TU, GBM
The Hon Mrs Selina CHOW, JP
The Hon Mrs Peggy LAM, JP
The Hon Henry WU
The Hon NGAI Shiu-kit, JP
The Hon Henry TANG Ying-yen, JP
The Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP
The Hon YUEN Mo
The Hon MA Fung-kwok
The Hon CHEUNG Hon-chung
Dr Hon Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin
The Hon LEUNG Chun-ying, JP
Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP
The Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, JP
The Hon MOK Ying-fan
The Hon HUI Yin-fat, JP
The Hon CHAN Choi-hi
The Hon CHAN Yuen-han
The Hon CHAN Wing-chan
The Hon CHAN Kam-lam
The Hon TSANG Yok-sing
The Hon CHENG Kai-nam
The Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
The Hon Andrew WONG Wang-fat, JP
Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
The Hon Kennedy WONG Ying-ho
The Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
Dr Hon Charles YEUNG Chun-kam
The Hon YEUNG Yiu-chung
The Hon IP Kwok-him
The Hon CHIM Pui-chung
The Hon Bruce LIU Sing-lee
The Hon LAU Kong-wah
The Hon LAU Wong-fat, JP
The Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, JP
The Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
The Hon CHOY Kan-pui, JP
The Hon Paul CHENG Ming-fun, JP
The Hon CHENG Yiu-tong
Dr Hon TANG Siu-tong, JP
The Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting
The Hon KAN Fook-yee
The Hon NGAN Kam-chuen
The Hon LO Suk-ching
Dr Hon LAW Cheung-kwok
The Hon TAM Yiu-chung, JP
The Hon CHOY So-yuk

Public officers attending:

The Honourable Elsie LEUNG Oi-sie, JP: The Secretary for Justice
Mr Nicholas NG Wing-fui, JP: Secretary for Transport
Mr Dominic WONG Shing-wah, JP: Secretary for Housing
Mr Rafael HUI Si-yan, JP: Secretary for Financial Services
Mr Peter LAI Hing-ling, JP: Secretary for Security
Mr KWONG Ki-chi, JP: Secretary for the Treasury
Mr LAM Woon-kwong, JP: Secretary for the Civil Service
Mr TAM Wing-pong, JP: Secretary for Trade and Industry

Clerks in attendance:

Mr Ricky FUNG Choi-cheung, JP,: Secretary General
Ms Pauline NG Man-wah,: Assistant Secretary General (1)
Mr Ray CHAN Yum-mou,: Assistant Secretary General (3)

Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

	Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
1.	Legislative Council (Registration of Electors) (Appeals) Regulation	541/97
2.	Human Organ Transplant Regulation	551/97
3.	Family Status Discrimination Ordinance (91 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	552/97
4.	Family Status Discrimination (Proceedings by Equal Opportunities Commission) Regulation (L.N. 497 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	553/97
5.	District Court Equal Opportunities (Amendment) Rules 1997 (L.N. 464 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	554/97
6.	Labour Tribunal (General) (Amendment) Rules 1997 (L.N. 465 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997	555/97

Sessional Papers

No.40-	The Hong Kong Industrial Estates Corporation Annual Report 1996-97
No.41-	Hong Kong Industrial Technology Centre Corporation Annual Report 1996-97

Questions

The President stated that Question time should not exceed one and a half hours and hence the time allocated to each question seeking an oral reply would on average be about 15 minutes. She would enforce the rules strictly and hoped that Members would cooperate by asking concise supplementaries, avoiding unnecessary introduction, and asking only a supplementary question at a time.

1.Prof NG Ching-fai asked Question 1.

The Secretary for Trade and Industry replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Trade and Industry replied.

2.Dr Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin asked Question 2.

The Secretary for Trade and Industry replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Trade and Industry replied.

3.Mr CHENG Yiu-tong asked Question 3.

The Secretary for the Civil Service replied.

Eight Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for the Civil Service replied.

4.Mr CHOY Kan-pui asked Question 4.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Eight Members asked supplementaries. The Secretary for Security and the Secretary for Financial Services replied.

5.Mr CHAN Choi-hi asked Question 5.

The Secretary for the Treasury replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for the Treasury replied.

6.Dr LAW Cheung-kwok asked Question 6.

The Secretary for Financial Services replied.

Five Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Financial Services replied.

Written replies to Questions 7 to 20 were tabled for Members' information.

Bills

First Reading

Cross-Harbour Tunnel (Cross-Harbour Tunnel Regulations) (Amendment) Ordinance 1997 (Amendment) Bill 1997 Tate's Cairn Tunnel (Tate's Cairn Tunnel Regulations) (Amendment) Ordinance 1997 (Amendment) Bill 1997 Provident Fund Schemes Legislation (Amendment) Bill 1997

The Bills were read the first time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading

The Secretary for Transport moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council on each of the two Bills.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debates on the Bills were adjourned and the Bills were referred to the House Committee.

Provident Fund Schemes Legislation (Amendment) Bill 1997

The Secretary for Financial Services moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Motions

Stamp Duty Ordinance

The Secretary for the Treasury moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That section 29I(1) of the Stamp Duty Ordinance be amended by repealing "31 December 1997" and substituting "31 December 1999".

Question on the Secretary for the Treasury's motion proposed. The President stated that Mr Ronald ARCULLI had given notice to move an amendment to the motion. She proposed that the motion and the proposed amendment be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the proposed amendment be debated together.

Mr Ronald ARCULLI moved the following amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion and addressed the Council:

That the motion to be moved by the Secretary for the Treasury under section 29I(2) of the Stamp Duty Ordinance (Cap. 117) at the Provisional Legislative Council meeting on 26 November 1997 be amended by deleting "31 December 1999" and substituting "30 June 1998".

Question on Mr Ronald ARCULLI's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion proposed.

Two Members spoke on the motion and the amendment.

The Secretary for the Treasury spoke on the amendment.

Question on Mr Ronald ARCULLI's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion put.

Mr Ronald ARCULLI claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 16 votes for the amendment, 35 votes against it and two abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix I.) She declared that Mr Ronald ARCULLI's amendment to the Secretary for the Treasury's motion was negatived.

Question on the Secretary for the Treasury's motion put and agreed to.

Members' Motions

Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance

Mr Allen LEE moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That section 22 of the Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden Bylaw, published as Legal Notice No. 504 of 1997 and laid on the table of the Provisional Legislative Council on 5 November 1997, be amended by repealing "Attorney General" and substituting "Secretary for Justice".

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

Review of the operating mechanism of Hong Kong's financial market

Mr Ambrose LAU moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That, in view of the recent international financial turmoil, this Council urges the Government, under the principle of maintaining a free and open market, to expeditiously review the operating mechanism of the local financial market, including the chain relationship between the stock, foreign exchange and index futures markets, and in particular to properly regulate stock lending and short selling of index futures, with a view to strengthening the Government's responsiveness to unforeseeable speculative activities and financial crises; furthermore, the Government should adopt effective measures to enhance the general stock buyers' understanding of the operation of the stock market and financial derivatives.

Question on the motion proposed.

A Member spoke on the motion.

At 5:02 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Another 10 Members and the Secretary for Financial Services spoke on the motion.

At 6:15 pm, the President resumed the chair.

Mr Ambrose LAU replied.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

Sale of Flats to Sitting Tenants Scheme

Mr K K FUNG moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That, in view of the Government's intention to introduce the Sale of Flats to Sitting Tenants Scheme, this Council urges the Government to adopt the following specific policies:

the construction cost of redeveloping the public rental housing (PRH) flats at the time of sale be used as the selling price of the flats;
the Housing Department should continue to be responsible for the management of the sold PRH flats;
a maintenance fund be established for carrying out the maintenance and improvement works on the housing blocks;
the re-sale of sold PRH flats be restricted to PRH flat owners, PRH tenants and applicants on the General Waiting List;
PRH flat owners, who have genuine financial difficulties, be allowed to re-sell their flats to the Housing Authority and to revert to the status of PRH tenants; and
the Housing Authority should assume the responsibility for redeveloping the sold PRH flats, as well as undertake to compensate and rehouse the PRH flat owners if the flats are to be redeveloped in future.

Question on Mr K K FUNG's motion proposed. The President stated that Mr Allen LEE and Mr CHENG Kai-nam had separately given notice to move amendments to the motion. She proposed that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together.

Mr Allen LEE and Mr CHENG Kai-nam addressed the Council on the motion and their proposed amendments respectively.

13 Members spoke on the motion and the proposed amendments.

Mr K K FUNG spoke on the proposed amendments.

The Secretary for Housing spoke on the motion and the proposed amendments.

Mr Allen LEE moved the following amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion:

To delete "view of the Government's intention to introduce the Sale of Flats to Sitting Tenants Scheme" and substitute with "order to ensure the success of the sale of the public rental housing (PRH) flats scheme"; to insert "original" before "construction"; to delete "redeveloping the public rental housing"; to delete "( )" from "(PRH)"; to insert "the" before "PRH"; to delete "at the time of sale"; to add "the basis for determining" after "used as"; to delete "the Housing Department should continue to be responsible for the management of the sold PRH flats;" and "(3)"; to add "(3) PRH tenants be allowed to freely purchase any PRH flats on sale; and" after "housing blocks;"; to delete "resale of sold" and substitute with "buyers of"; to delete "restricted to PRH flat owners, PRH tenants and applicants on the General Waiting List;" and substitute with "allowed to sell their flats in the market without restrictions after a specified time"; and to delete "(5) PRH flat owners, who have genuine financial difficulties, be allowed to re-sell their flats to the Housing Authority and to revert to the status of PRH tenants; and (6) the Housing Authority should assume the responsibility for redeveloping the sold PRH flats, as well as undertake to compensate and rehouse the PRH flat owners if the flats are to be redeveloped in future".

Question on Mr Allen LEE's amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion proposed and put. As the President could not judge from the voice votes whether the 'ayes' had it or the 'noes' had it, she ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 10 votes for the amendment, 24 votes against it and three abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix II.) She declared that Mr Allen LEE's amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion was negatived.

Mr CHENG Kai-nam moved the following amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion:

To add ", offset by a rate of depreciation," after "time of sale"; to add "the base for setting" after "be used as"; to delete "continue to be responsible for the management of the sold PRH flats" and substitute with "take up the responsibility for assisting the PRH flat owners in setting up Owners' Corporations if the number of sold PRH flats reaches a specified proportion of the total number of available PRH flats, and should continue to be responsible for the management of both the sold and unsold PRH flats if the number of sold PRH flats fails to reach the specified proportion"; to insert "the Housing Department should set aside a certain proportion of the proceeds from the sale of PRH flats as the principal of" before "a maintenance fund"; to delete "be"; to delete "the re-sale of sold PRH flats be restricted" and substitute with "three years after purchasing the PRH flats, owners should be allowed to re-sell their flats"; to insert "other" before "PRH flat owners"; to add "or to sell their flats freely in the market after repayment of the land premium; and" after "General Waiting List"; and to delete "; and (6) the Housing Authority should assume the responsibility for redeveloping the sold PRH flats, as well as undertake to compensate and rehouse the PRH flat owners if the flats are to be redeveloped in future".

Question on Mr CHENG Kai-nam's amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion proposed and put. As the President could not judge from the voice votes whether the 'ayes' had it or the 'noes' had it, she ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(4) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that there were 21 votes for the amendment, 13 votes against it and three abstentions. (Voting record in Appendix III.) She declared that Mr CHENG Kai-nam's amendment to Mr K K FUNG's motion was agreed.

Mr K K FUNG replied.

Question on Mr K K FUNG's motion as amended by Mr CHENG Kai-nam put and agreed to.

Next meeting

The President declared that the next meeting of the Council would be held on 3 December 1997 at 2:30 pm.

The Council was adjourned at 8:46 pm.

(Mrs Rita FAN)President

Council Chamber
Hong Kong