OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 13 January 1999
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KENNETH TING WOO-SHOU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT

THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, S.C., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING

DR THE HONOURABLE LUI MING-WAH, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE CHEUNG WING-SUM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI CHEUNG-CHING

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KWOK-KEUNG

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE BERNARD CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE GARY CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE WONG YUNG-KAN

THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO

THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-KIN

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

MEMBER ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING, J.P.

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE ELSIE LEUNG OI-SIE, J.P.
THE SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING

MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, G.B.S., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MISS DENISE YUE CHUNG-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY

MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

MR STEPHEN IP SHU-KWAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

MR BENEDICT KWONG HON-SANG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS

MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

MR KEVIN HO CHI-MING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL

MS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
Food Business (Regional Council) (Amendment) (No. 3) Bylaw 1998	1/99
Statutes of the Chinese University of Hong Kong (Amendment) (No. 2) Statute 1998	2/99
Veterinary Surgeons Registration Ordinance (Cap. 529) (Commencement) Notice 1999	3/99
Medical Laboratory Technologists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1997;
Physiotherapists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1997;
Radiographers (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1997
── Corrigendum	4/99
Medical Laboratory Technologists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1999	5/99
Physiotherapists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1999	6/99
Radiographers (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) Regulation 1999	7/99

Sessional Paper

No. 83

─

Lingnan College Annual Report 1997-98 and Lingnan College Financial Report for the year ended 30 June 1998

Reports

Report of the Bills Committee on Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998

Report of the Bills Committee on Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. I would like to remind Members that question time normally does not exceed one and a half hours, with each question being allocated about 12 to 15 minutes on average. When asking supplementaries, Members should be as concise as possible. They should not ask more than one question, and should not make statements. To do so would contravene Rule 26 of the Rules of Procedure. Today we will continue to try out the electronic queuing system. After I have called upon a Member to ask a main question, other Members who wish to ask supplementary questions to this question need, in addition to raising their hands, indicate the wish by pressing the "Request-to-speak" buttons in front of their seats. On the other hand, if a Member wishes to follow up and seek elucidation on an answer, or raise a point of order, please stand up to so indicate and wait for me to call before speaking. Do Members have any question?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now invite Mr Ambrose LAU to ask the first question.

Safety of Using Electrical Home Appliances

1. MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is reported that last month a man in Ma Tau Wai Estate in Kowloon City was suspected of being electrocuted when using a storage-type electric water heater. While there was no effective earthing connection attached to the water heater concerned, the flat in question also had not been installed with a current-type leakage circuit breaker. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the total number of public housing flats which have not been installed with leakage circuit breakers; whether the Housing Department has plans to install leakage circuit breakers in all public housing flats; if so, the details and the timetable for implementation; and (b) whether it plans to step up its publicity efforts and conduct promotional programmes on the safety of using electrical home appliances, so as to enhance the public's knowledge and awareness in this respect, and thereby reduce the occurrence of similar accidents; if so, the details of such?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President,

(a) The safety standard of electrical installations in public housing estates is taken very seriously. The Housing Authority (HA) provides at all public housing estates adequate electrical safety facilities, including effective earthing facilities and miniature circuit breakers commonly used for protecting fixed electrical appliances.

The existing electrical installations provided by the HA at all public housing estates are up to the required safety standard. However, in the light of the increasing demand for electricity at these estates, the HA embarked in 1990 on an Electrical Reinforcement and Rewiring Programme to reinforce the rising mains and rewire the electricity distribution systems. The programme includes the installation of residual current devices, which detect if there is any leakage of current from a portable electrical appliance connected to a socket outlet and cut off the electricity supply to the appliance if the leakage of current exceeds 30 milliamperes. To date, all public housing units completed or rewired after 1985 have been equipped with residual current devices. The installation of residual current devices and other rewiring work for the remaining 133 000 public housing units is scheduled to be completed by March 2004.

(b) As regards publicity and promotional programmes on the safety of household electrical appliances, the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (EMSD) has done much in this area and will continue to do so. In recent years, the Department has launched various publicity programmes to alert consumers to the dangers of using household electrical appliances and electrical accessories, such as plugs and adaptors, that do not meet the requirements of the Electrical Products (Safety) Regulation.

In December last year, the EMSD launched a major publicity campaign to promote the safe use of household electrical appliances. Some 120 000 copies of a 20-page booklet entitled "Safety Guidelines for Household Electrical Appliances" have been produced for free distribution to the public at District Offices, housing estate offices, power companies' customer services centres and the Consumer Council's district advice centres. These safety guidelines cover many popular appliances such as adaptors, extension units, audio/visual products, fans, room heaters, washing machines, dryers, air-conditioners and electric water heaters. Other publicity activities included announcements on television and radio, advertisements at Mass Transit Railway stations, the putting up of posters for display at public housing estates, private buildings and government poster sites, and the distribution together with electricity bills in January and February 1999, of calendar cards printed with electrical product safety messages to consumers throughout Hong Kong.

Along with its publicity campaign, the EMSD will continue to give talks to residential groups and community organizations in various districts on the safe use of household electrical appliances. In 1998, 24 such talks were delivered by the Department's staff. The HA is also actively promoting electrical safety at public housing estates. HA engineers will attend Estate Management Advisory Committee meetings to promote electricity safety with particular emphasis on the importance of effective earthing of fixed installations. Promotional posters and leaflets are being prepared for display and distribution respectively to public housing tenants.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (a) of the Government's main answer, it is stated that leakage circuit breakers will be installed in 133 000 public housing units and the installation is scheduled to be completed by March 2004. However, there are actually many potential hazards within this period. It is also stated in part (b) of the main answer that the EMSD has launched many publicity programmes. Will the Government pinpoint particularly at households not yet installed with leakage circuit breakers and launch special publicity programmes targeted at these households to enhance their alertness and ensure that they know there are potential dangers?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, HA staff often hold discussions with the relevant Advisory Committees of the public housing estates and inspect the electrical appliances in housing units, and they will notify tenants in advance once they discover any problem. Besides, they will teach tenants that they must hire registered electricians to install electrical appliances. The HA will shortly require tenants to ask electricians installing electrical appliances for credentials to make sure that the installations are safe. Other publicity efforts of the HA include distributing posters, leaflets and digests to tenants, for example, the booklet published by the EMSD. Furthermore, the HA often issues notices on the safe use of electrical appliances. The HA will pay special attention to the remaining 130 000-odd public housing units which have not been installed with leakage circuit breakers.

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the main answer has mentioned various safety issues and I have discussed with HA engineers in regard to this incident. However, I wonder if the Administration agrees with me that, in regard to publicity strategies, instead of teaching every member of the public to be an electrical technician and telling them the whole story, we might as well teach them not to be opinionated or tamper with electrical appliances and that they should hire approved electricians as the Secretary has just said? It is also stated in the main answer that HA engineers will attend Estate Management Advisory Committee meetings to promote the safe use of electrical appliances. But I find there are fallacies here as every household has electrical appliances. Can the Secretary inform this Council if he agrees with what I just said, that we should call upon the general public not to tamper with electrical appliances or be opinionated, but they must hire approved electricians as this is far better than teaching people about electrical installations?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think that what Mr Gary CHENG said is right. In fact, we have been distributing "Safety Guidelines for Household Electrical Appliances" to the public including tenants of the HA housing estates. We have actually stated very clearly in page one of the booklet that all electrical installations must be installed by registered electricians. As Mr Gary CHENG has said, people should not carry out repairs by themselves. This point has been emphasized at the talks held by the EMSD and it has been stated that the most important point to note is that even though fixed installations such as water heaters are not installed with leakage circuit breakers, people must ensure that the water heaters are connected to the mains installed with a miniature circuit breaker. The connection of the earthing to the miniature circuit breaker protects against the occurrence of accidents such as those caused by electricity leakage at the outer casings of electrical appliances.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Gary CHENG, which part of your supplementary has not been answered?

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): I was asking about strategies instead of knowledge about electrical appliances. I am afraid the people have a misconception that they will certainly not be electrocuted once leakage circuit breakers have been installed, but this is not true. Accidents will similarly occur if the ground wires and earthing of electrical appliances are not connected. Is this more important than letting the public know more about the circuit intricacies?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): As regards strategies, I believe that we fully agree with Mr CHENG. But I have just said that we explicitly tell the public in page one of our booklet that they should not act if they do not know. This message will be emphasized in all publicity programmes and talks to be held in future.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as regards the Electrical Products (Safety) Regulation mentioned in part (b) of the main answer, my impression is that before this Regulation is implemented, the Government has broadcast many announcements on television and radio advising the public not to use plugs indiscriminately. I believe the Government was then mainly calling upon the public not to buy those substandard plugs and disallowing the sale of such plugs. However, has the Government so far considered turning similar publicity programmes into calling upon the public to replace or discard the plugs they bought before as I believe many households are still using old products?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have indeed been doing so. As for the substandard plugs and adaptors, they are actually not sold in the market as inspection has been carried out by the EMSD. Certainly, some households may still be using old and substandard electrical appliances but as I have said before, many booklets have specified products that are up to standard and that the public should stop using substandard products. If in doubt, as I have said before, they should make enquiries with the registered contractors and technicians. We agree with Mr YOUNG that enhanced publicity should be made in this direction in future.

MR HUI CHEUNG-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, what corresponding measures does the Government have from now until the completion of the rewiring work to prevent or avoid the occurrence of electricity leakage tragedies?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which of the two Secretaries will answer the question?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I reckon that Mr HUI's supplementary is related to the HA. In my opinion, as I said at the beginning, the HA will consistently make publicity efforts. Secondly, the HA will educate the tenants concerned not to tamper with electrical appliances. Thirdly, the HA will carry out inspections on wires and other installations to see if there are such problems. Generally speaking, it is imperative that installations be kept in relatively safe condition, but we are now going after even safer installations. After the accident has occurred, although investigation is in progress, we find that many accidents could be avoided with effective earthing. We will make more efforts in respect of publicity and education. The problem should be greatly reduced if every person hires a registered electrical technician to examine their electrical appliances.

DR LUI MING-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, some 130 000 units out of the public housing units completed before 1985 have not been installed with earthing and ground wires. For installations to be made by the Government, the works will only be completed by 2004. Will the Secretary inform the Council whether the Administration can hire registered electrical engineers and technicians to carry out such works at the expense of the Government instead of specifying that installations should be made by EMSD staff so that the works can be completed within one year rather than by 2004?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the HA has actually invited registered contractors to carry out the rewiring works in progress. As they have limited manpower, they have also invited other contractors in the market to carry out the rewiring works. We have also reminded the HA to speed up the progress as far as possible and to make adjustments against expenditure.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, although some other Members would like to follow up this question, as time is running short, we have to proceed to the second question now.

Civil Service Pay Adjustment

2. MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, in its annual pay adjustment exercise for the Civil Service, the Administration refers to the results of Pay Trend Surveys (PTSs) of private sector companies in the previous fiscal year as the basis for consideration. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether, in considering the civil service pay adjustment for this year, it will consider adjusting the results of the PTS, having regard to the following factors:

(a) the results of the PTSs which are limited in scope and whose respondents are mostly the larger or the more profitable companies in the private sector, cannot fully reflect the overall downward pay adjustment trend for the working population of Hong Kong; and

(b) the practices of some private companies in achieving the target of cutting staff costs by adopting measures such as reducing their staff establishments or employing less experienced staff members, rather than by adjusting the salaries of staff?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, before answering the questions, I should point out that the Government's long established annual pay adjustment policy is to follow the pay trend in reputable companies in Hong Kong which have an established and independent system to adjust pay on the basis of factors and considerations relevant to them. In this respect, we firmly believe that we should follow rather than lead the good employers in the private sector. And that is why we use pay adjustment figures of these companies in the year immediately preceding our financial year for the purpose.

My answers to the two questions are as follows: (a) Our PTS covers a wide range of companies. For the forthcoming survey, 82 companies have been invited to participate. These include 22 large companies (with 1 500 employees or more), 27 medium-sized companies (with 500 to 1 499 employees), and 33 small companies (with 100 to 499 employees). The scope of the survey field is wide enough to allow us to get results that are representative of the pay adjustments made among the good employers in the private sector. It is the Government's declared policy that our pay adjustment should be made in accordance with that made by good employers in the private sector, so that we may compete for and retain good quality staff; and

(b) Our survey covers the movement in pay trend only and does not take into account factors such as productivity gain and down-sizing. This is a conscious choice and for practical reasons. First, there is no objective or universal indicator on productivity gain. Profitability of a private company can be due to many factors and cannot be relied on as the sole indicator of productivity. Though we are increasingly steering the public sector towards setting performance based indicators, a universal indicator to benchmark overall government productivity change remains a distant target. Comparison between productivity changes in the private and public sectors, insofar as we are aware, is still very much a subject for academic study. To factor this element into our PTS mechanism is therefore not practicable at this stage, even assuming that private companies are willing to reveal to us their internal efficiency gain policies and practices.

The common practice of down-sizing in the private sector in the current economic climate has not gone unnoticed by us. But down-sizing could be the outcome of a whole range of factors, from lack of business, to shifts in product lines for example. It is again not a simple indicator which we can factor into our PTS formula and be used for direct comparison.

Nevertheless, we do understand the concerns of the private sector: That if in this economic climate we still ignore the widespread practice in efficiency improvements and cost cutting measures in the private sector, then we would not be in tune with the rest of the community.

That is why the Civil Service is firmly set on a course to boost efficiency and productivity as well. The Chief Executive announced the Enhanced Productivity Programme in his policy address in October. This alone is designed to boost efficiency by at least 5% over the next three years and is only the first phase of a more comprehensive efficiency drive. In support of this, we have recently announced a relaxation in the use of non-civil service contracts for recruitment to departments. We are also looking at restructuring the way government services are provided. Members are aware of ongoing efforts in respect of Trading Fund Departments and the introduction of more private sector measures in certain government departments. These efforts will continue.

We firmly believe that in times like these, the pressure on the Civil Service is greatest ─ we must take the lead to demonstrate we are responsive, and yet caring. We will respond positively to the situation facing Hong Kong, while at the same time we will care about the quality of service we provide.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, if civil service pay is adjusted by referring to that in the business sector, I would totally agree to the Secretary's answer. But the Secretary pointed out in the first paragraph of his answer that the employers have to be good employers. By that I suppose he meant the financial position of them is sound, that is, only good companies are selected. Then, in the main reply, the Government indicated of the 82 companies which have been invited to participate, 22 were large companies with more than 1 500 employees. By medium-sized companies, it is meant those with 500 to 1 500 employees and small ones, 100 to 499 employees. But in Hong Kong, the majority of companies are small and medium enterprises (SMEs) with less than 50 employees and they form 90% of the companies in Hong Kong. Will the Secretary inform this Council whether he will in the forthcoming survey add 30 to 50 companies with less than 50 employees as participants in the survey?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is true that there are a large number of SMEs in Hong Kong. If enterprises are too small, a major problem is that in general they do not have a so-called policy on pay. To a large extent, in such enterprises, pay is determined randomly by the relationship between the employer and employee and the need to adjust pay. In the circumstances, I think Members will probably not agree with me that as an employer of 180 000, the Government should adopt a random fashion in determining its pay policy. Madam President, I should like to stress that the companies were not selected at random. Since the PTSs were first conducted in 1974, we have accumulated 20-odd years' experience. Technical adjustments have also been made as the economic environment changed over the years. The present 80-odd companies included in the survey are basically representative as good employers.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (b), third paragraph, the Secretary said "if ...... we still ignore the widespread practice in efficiency improvements and cost cutting measures ...... then we would not be in tune with the rest of the community." This gives people the impression that in the present pay adjustment, it is very likely there will be a downward adjustment. Will the Secretary inform this Council whether he has considered the fact that when the Government proposes an adjustment for the Civil Service, it will be used as an indicator by the other organizations in the community? So, if the Government reduces pay for the Civil Service this time, certain organizations will follow suit. Will the Secretary inform this Council how he would strike a balance if that happens?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, data from the PTSs are not the only determining factor for the annual pay adjustment for the Civil Service. Our policy is that other than data from the PTSs we will also consider other factors such as the economic conditions, the Government's financial position, and the impact on staff morale. Usually, a decision on the pay adjustment for next year will only be made in about June after we have considered all factors. At this stage, the offer of any opinion could be considered inappropriate because the next PTSs have not started yet.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I was asking the Secretary whether he had considered the effect on the community once the Government proposed a pay adjustment for the Civil Service, which may become a guideline for other organizations. If he had, how would he find a balance?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I remember that part of your question. Secretary.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, strictly speaking, if we follow exactly the data in the PTSs, we would surely not take the lead in pay adjustment in the community. Of course, all sectors in the community are operating in a complex and interactive way. At the present stage, I expect in deciding the next pay adjustment for the Civil Service we must carefully consider the Hong Kong economy and its prospects in the middle of the year, as well as the future financial position of the Government of the Special Administrative Region. It is too early to say at this stage what our policy will be for the future.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the second last paragraph of the main reply, it is said that the Civil Service is firmly set on a course to boost efficiency, including the setting up of more Trading Fund Departments and the introduction of more private sector measures. Will the Secretary inform this Council how he would ensure that efficiency is raised and public expenditure reduced by way of more Trading Fund Departments and private sector measures, instead of "inflating" the public expenditure through all means such as the "user pays" principle, in particular in the services monopolized by the Government?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have several years' experience in operating the trading funds. In fact, we have witnessed not only higher efficiency for the Government by introducing trading fund operations but also huge benefits for the consumers for what they pay on a wide spectrum. The Post Office and the Land Registry are two examples of success. However, we have relatively less experience in privatization. In the past 10-odd years, from experiences in corporatization and privatization, we know, not just from the expenditure point of view, there is far more flexibility in the new organization in their operation and management compared to departments in the Government. So, we firmly believe a further introduction of some private sector measures and of more trading funds or similar practices where practicable and possible are surely conducive to enhancing the efficiency and saving expenditure.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the 82 companies included in the PTSs can be divided into three categories. They have different pay increments. After the financial turmoil, I am afraid some of these companies may have folded. Will this affect the data? Will the Goverment invite some other companies to join in the 82 companies?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, indeed the companies under survey cannot always be the same. That is a fact. Rightly as the Honourable Member has put it, individual companies may close or change their nature of business. Our survey directs that a company will be struck out of the list once it changes its business or its staff have undergone substantial movement or even it is closed, of course. This is because what we look for is a trend that has to be compared with the previous year. We want most of the companies to be consistent so that the results are more accurate in our comparison.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, did the Government add any new companies to the 82 companies? Results will not be sufficiently accurate if there are insufficient data or if the field of companies is too small.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the answer is yes. Each year we will indeed see if suitable companies can be added to the survey.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, Mr James TIEN's question, particularly part (b) thereof, showed that in the private sector there are indeed down-sizing and wage cuts. We all know it is very difficult for wage cuts or layoffs to take place in the Civil Service. Will the Secretary inform this Council whether the Government will consider implementing the zero growth policy again to cut expenditure?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, pay adjustment and staff growth are not necessarily taken together. In terms of manpower, we have just issued a guideline that allows department heads to recruit staff on non-civil service contract terms. This shows that we are indeed determined to limit growth in the civil service team as far as possible so as to rein in our expenditure on staff salary. It will be too early to say now whether the next PTSs will lead to a salary cut for the coming financial year.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. Will the Government consider implementing the zero growth policy again? The Secretary only said the Government would recruit staff on non-civil service contract terms but that relates to growth only, not the permanent establishment. Will the Secretary answer my supplementary question?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, a new thinking now is that we do not want to say all departments should achieve zero growth. For example, some departments may have some growth because some new facilities are completed or some new services are launched, and at the same time they need to cut 5% of their expenditure under the Productivity Enhancement Programme. But some departments may cut some posts, and they may have less than zero growth. So, we are now exercising more flexibility on the whole. We will study requests from departments for adjustment. I stressed we allow departments to recruit staff on non-civil service contract terms mainly because we want to give more flexibility to our departments. For example, a certain department may have short-term work and the department head may recruit a team of staff but the team would not be a long-term liability for the department. When the need disappears or when the department is financially tight, it may dismiss the team easily at any time. Therefore after some time when department heads are familiar with the system, they will be in a better position to control the growth of permanent civil service staff.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, we have spent more than 18 minutes on this question. Although there are a number of Members who want to raise supplementary questions, we must stop here. I suggest Members be more concise when asking supplementary questions so that more Members may ask questions.

Third question.

Vehicle Speed Limits

3. MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the criteria used in setting the current vehicle speed limits for motor roads;

(b) whether it has studied if the speed limits for some sections of expressways at present are too low; if so, of the reasons for these; and

(c) whether it will review the criteria so as to strike a balance between road safety and traffic flow efficiency?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, the speed limit imposed on a road is the maximum speed that is legally allowed which must not be exceeded at any time. Section 40(1) of the Road Traffic Ordinance imposes a general speed limit on all roads at 50 km/hr, unless the Commissioner for Transport specifies a different speed limit. On roads where limits exceeding 70 km/hr are allowed, section 40(5) of the Road Traffic Ordinance imposes a maximum speed limit on medium goods vehicles, heavy goods vehicles and buses at 70 km/hr.

Speed limits on our roads vary with the type of roads. The limits are 50 km/hr for the vast majority of urban roads, 70 km/hr or 80 km/hr for rural and urban trunk roads and 80 km/hr or 100 km/hr for expressways.

The criteria in determining the speed limit of a road are set out in the Transport Planning and Design Manual which are drawn up on the basis of internationally accepted highway design and engineering practices. These criteria include:

(i) The type of roads such as trunk roads, primary distributors or village roads.

(ii) Geometric design standards such as gradient, alignment and width.

(iii) Road surface characteristics, for example, skidding resistance and texture depth of the surface material.

(iv) Other design features such as frontage access, grade separated junctions, parking, stopping, loading and unloading restrictions.

The speed limit of all new roads are reviewed within two years after commissioning and then every three to six years thereafter. Speed limits may be adjusted upwards or downwards having regard to the following factors: (i) the original design speed;

(ii) the number and nature of traffic accidents on the road;

(iii) the actual average speed of vehicles travelling on the road;

(iv) changes in road characteristics which might lead to a change in pedestrian and vehicular flow; and

(v) changes in vehicle technology which might affect vehicle speed and safety performance.

The objective of such reviews is to ensure that a right balance is struck between traffic flow and road safety.

The existing speed limits of our major roads and expressways are set out at Annex to this reply which I have tabled. I have stated in the 1998 Policy Objective for the Transport Bureau that as part of our package of measures to improve conditions for road users, we will conduct a comprehensive speed limit review of major trunk roads and expressways. The first two phases of this review have been completed. The third and final phase is expected to be completed by mid-1999. The preliminary findings suggest there is scope to adjust the speed of some of our expressways upwards to enhance travel flow. This is due largely to the advancement in automobile design engineering which has resulted in modern vehicles being equipped with improved brakes and steering capabilities.

The Government will be consulting the Legislative Council Panel on Transport and the Transport Advisory Committee on the outcome of the review.

Annex

Existing Speed Limits on Expressways

	Existing Speed limit (km/hr)
Kowloon Region
West Kowloon Highway	70/80
Kwun Tong Bypass	80
Hong Kong Region
Island Eastern Corridor	70
New Territories East Region
Sha Tin Road	80
Tolo Highway	80/100
Fanling Highway	80/100
Sha Tin Wai Road (elevated section)	80
Tate's Cairn Highway	80
Ma On Shan Road (part)	80
Tai Po Road - Sha Tin	80
New Territories West Region
Tsuen Wan Road	70
Tuen Mun Road	70
Tsing Kwai Highway	80
Cheung Tsing Highway	80
North West Tsing Yi Interchange	80
Lantau Link	80
North Lantau Highway	100
Yuen Long Highway	70
Sam Tin Highway	70/80/100
Route 3 Yuen Long Approach Road	80/100
Ting Kau Bridge	80

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, Members seem to have a wrong impression that the higher the speed, the more dangerous it is. Is the speed limit on our roads relatively low? For example, the existing speed limits for roads in the urban and urban fringe areas are 50 km/hr and motorists know that 50 km/hr is a fairly slow speed. I have heard some officials say if a speed limit of 50 km/hr is ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG, please come to your question.

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): My question is: Is a speed limit of 50 km/hr is too low? As there is a very short distance between vehicles, if we only consider the capacity of a road, a zero distance will be the best because there will be a maximum number of vehicles on the roads, in other words, the road is filled up with vehicles. But, should we also take traffic efficiency into account?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we will certainly take traffic efficiency into account. If higher speed limits are suitable for certain roads, we will certainly adjust the relevant speed limits.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, many roads including urban roads and expressways have different speed limits at different sections, making it necessary for drivers to accelerate and decelerate every now and then, an act which very often constitutes danger. Has the Government noticed this situation? How can it improve the situation?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have noticed this but we need to strike a balance between several factors. Firstly, we have to increase traffic efficiency as far as possible. If different sections of a road permit different speed limits because of difference in structure and direction, the safest measure is surely to adopt the lowest standard but this is unsatisfactory in terms of traffic flow and is unfair to drivers as they can actually use higher speeds but we ask them to use lower ones by administrative means. Therefore, this is not the best solution. Besides, we have also noticed the problem just mentioned by Mrs LAU that it may be dangerous when a driver changes from a road section with a higher speed limit to one with a lower speed limit. Therefore, we are conceiving some warning signs to be put up at the junction of a road section with a higher speed limit and another with a lower speed limit. In other words, some signs will be installed in front of low speed signs to alert drivers in advance so as to avoid danger.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, in respect of speed limits, it has been a very long time since the last review was made and the existing limits are vastly out-dated. Has the Secretary considered that there will not be a great difference between setting two speed limits, that is, 50 km/hr and 70 km/hr for urban roads and a single speed limit in terms of road design and traffic efficiency? There is also confusion in expressways in rural areas to have speed limits varying from 70 km/hr, 80km/hr to 100 km/hr. I do not think that there will be a great difference in terms of road design if a uniform speed limit is specified. Will the Secretary consider specifying a uniform speed limit for rural trunk roads?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have considered simplifying as far as possible different grades of speed limits but as the design standards of certain roads are basically lower, especially when roads in Hong Kong are built at different times, we need to strike a balance. While we try our best to simplify the grades of speed limits, we have to allow drivers to drive at the fastest speed in a safe manner. Therefore, our objective is to try our best to simplify speed limits but there will certainly be exceptions. If the designs of certain roads cannot permit a specified speed limit, we will surely opt for a lower speed limit.

MR JASPER TSANG (in Cantonese): Madam President, will it not be confusing if the speed limits of heavy vehicles including medium goods vehicles and buses on expressways are not as indicated on the signs on the expressways? Has the Government adopted effective measures to give drivers of such vehicles sufficient warning?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, concerning this, we can make more efforts in respect of education. However, these vehicles are driven by professional drivers who know the roads very well. Nevertheless, our guidelines request heavy vehicle drivers to use the inner lanes when driving on expressways precisely because the maximum speeds of these vehicles are different from those of other vehicles.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, as reported, a specialist who came from Australia to Hong Kong earlier on to observe the traffic conditions in Hong Kong criticized that many road signs, especially speed limit plates in Hong Kong, are very often different in sizes and colours, causing confusion very easily. Can the Government inform this Council if this is true? What criteria does the Government adopt to determine the sizes and colours of road signs? Has it adopted international standards?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, there are certainly different plates on our roads. Plates of different shapes have different functions. As to the sizes of plates, we have basically made reference to international standards. On a very long road, we will put up warning plates at different sections to remind drivers of the speed limits of the respective sections. In the past, these plates were of smaller sizes, and we intend to enlarge these plates now. As for other plates, we will also try our best to standardize them, but under some special circumstances, for example, when we have to show the entire warning or restrictions on the same plate, we surely have to use plates of a larger size. These are practical difficulties we must overcome.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not answered the part on international standards. Have the international standards been adhered to in respect of road surface design?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, yes.

MR AMBROSE CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has said that a review will only be made on new roads two years after commissioning, why is it necessary to wait for such a long time as two years? For example, as we all know, after the commissioning of the West Kowloon Highway, the speeds of vehicles actually do not tally with the speed limits of the road. Why does it take such a long time as two years before a review will be made? Why is the review not advanced to one year after commissioning?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, there are actually several reasons. Firstly, I have just said "within two years", and if necessary, we will conduct a review earlier. Secondly, the traffic flow on many new roads will only attain balance after a certain period of time. The traffic flow on many new roads do not reach the normal capacity during the initial phase of commissioning. We will conduct a review after the traffic flow reaches the normal capacity because one of the factors for consideration when reviewing speed limits is the actual average speed of drivers using the new roads. This is a fact. Experience tells us that if many drivers drive at a certain speed without encountering any traffic danger, that speed can be taken as reference. Therefore, we must wait until a new road has attained a deemed normal flow before conducting a review.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, traffic accidents very often occur at bends and their curvature calls for different standards of safe speeds. Will the Government consider following the example of Australia in putting up safe speed limit plates at more dangerous bends to alert drivers?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have put up such plates at certain bends but we do not adopt this measure often as too many speed limit signs will cause confusion. However, we have put up other warning signs, for example, we are now using yellow and black arrows or black and white arrows to remind drivers that they will soon enter a fast bend. However, I would like to reiterate that the speed limit of a road signifies the maximum speed, but under different weather and road conditions and in individual road sections such as the bends just mentioned, drivers should note that the safe speeds may be lower than the maximum speeds.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has mentioned in the main answer that the speed limits on some expressways may be relaxed. Can the Secretary cite one or two examples of the expressways set out at the Annex which will have speed limits relaxed? Can the 100 km/hr speed limit be adjusted upwards to 120 km/hr?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we will consider relaxing the speed limits of dozens of road sections and we will submit the relevant information to the Panel concerned next week. As this is a comprehensive review, all expressways and trunk roads in most parts of the New Territories region and urban area fall within the scope of our review. As for the 100 km/hr speed limit, we will consider adjusting the limit upwards but we still have to consider if it will be adjusted upwards to 120 km/hr.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question.

Detention of Hong Kong Residents in the Mainland

4. MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is reported that there have been cases in which Hong Kong residents involved in business or other disputes in the Mainland were detained by the mainland law enforcement authorities for a long period of time without trial. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of:

(a) the respective numbers of cases in which the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) received requests for assistance from the relatives and friends of Hong Kong residents who have been detained for more than one month because of such disputes, during the year before the reunification of Hong Kong as well as since the reunification; and among such cases, the respective numbers of those which have been resolved and those still pending;

(b) the department in the SAR Government from which the detainees or their relatives and friends can seek assistance where the Hong Kong residents concerned have been detained in the Mainland for a long time without trial; the kinds of assistance the SAR Government can render them; and

(c) the department or policy bureau in the SAR Government which is responsible for following up such cases with the relevant mainland authorities; and whether the SAR Government knows which department in the Mainland is responsible for co-ordinating matters relating to such cases and for liaising with the SAR Government on these matters?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President,

(a) In the period from 1 July 1997 to December 1998, we received a total of 26 requests for assistance regarding Hong Kong residents who had been detained for more than one month in the Mainland, of which seven were related to suspected fraud or deception offences. Ten of these 26 cases have been settled (see Annex A for details).

As regards requests for assistance raised before the reunification, as far as we know, nine cases involving Hong Kong residents detained in the Mainland were not yet resolved at the time of the reunification. Three of them were subsequently resolved in 1998 (see Annex B for details). We do not keep separate statistics on those cases which had been resolved before the reunification.

(b) Family members or friends of Hong Kong residents detained or imprisoned in the Mainland may approach the Immigration Department for assistance. The Immigration Department will provide practical assistance such as arranging for the next of kin to be informed of the arrest, and if necessary, arranging for the urgent issue of the Re-entry Permit or other Hong Kong travel documents to family members. The Security Bureau will co-ordinate action with other government department as necessary in providing all possible assistance to family members and friends of the person detained.

(c) The Constitutional Affairs Bureau is responsible for referring the family members' or friends' requests for assistance and subsequent enquiries to the relevant mainland authorities, which may include the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office and the relevant central and provincial/municipal authorities.

Annex A

Requests for Assistance from

Hong Kong residents detained or imprisoned in the Mainland

(From 1 July 1997 to 31 December 1998)

	Resolved1	Outstanding	Total
Post-reunification
Fraud and deception	3 (3)	4 (5)	7 (8)
Other criminal offences2	7 (9)	12 (14)	19 (23)
Total	10 (12)	16 (19)	26 (31)

Note 1: Resolved cases mean those who have returned to Hong Kong or do not require the assistance from the SAR Government anymore.

Note 2: Other criminal offences include smuggling, corruption, rape, murder, drug offences, drunk driving and as patrons of vice-establishment, and so on.

Figures in ( ) denote number of persons involved.

Annex B

Requests for Assistance from

Hong Kong residents detained or imprisoned in the Mainland

(From 1 July 1994 to 30 June 1997)

	Resolved1	Outstanding	Total
Pre-reunification
Fraud and deception	2 (2)	2 (3)	4 (5)
Other criminal offences2	1 (1)	4 (4)	5 (5)
Total	3 (3)	6 (7)	9 (10)

Note 1: Resolved cases mean those who have returned to Hong Kong or do not require the assistance from the SAR Government anymore.

Note 2: Other criminal offences include smuggling, corruption, rape, murder, drug offences, drunk driving and as patrons of vice-establishment, and so on.

Figures in ( ) denote number of persons involved.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the Government's statistics, at least six complaint cases involving Hong Kong residents being detained in the Mainland that were received before the reunification still remain resolved, meaning that these people have been detained for at least over 18 months now. May I ask how the Government is dealing with these cases? In particular, as the Chinese Criminal Law provides that an administrative detention cannot be longer than 14 days, these cases have obviously exceeded the time limit. What assistance can the SAR Government render these Hong Kong residents?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the information that we have, the lengths of Hong Kong residents being detained in the Mainland have ranged from several days to several years. For those who were held for several years, the detainees had actually been convicted and were serving their prison terms in the Mainland. These are cases that we know of. As regards the criminal or civil lawsuits, according to the Civil Litigation Law of the Mainland, the courts are empowered by law to order certain measures to be taken which include meting out of fines and detention of the persons who violate the court orders. Similarly, under the Criminal Litigation Law, as Mr MA has just pointed out, different detention terms for different siutations such as detention during the investigation before the prosecution is authorized by the procuratorate, or detention after the prosecution is also set down. Pursuant to the laws of the Mainland, criminal litigation is under the legal supervision of the procuratorate. We do of course do our best to provide assistance to Hong Kong residents, especially in regard of the liaison with mainland authorities. But if Hong Kong residents are detained over a long period, or cannot contact their relatives and friends or are unable to gain assess to legal defence, the best way to deal with it is for the detainee himself, or his relatives and friends or his lawyer to file a request with the mainland authorities on his behalf.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA, which part of your supplementary has not been answered?

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I mainly wish to find out more details from the Government. What specific measures can be taken by the Government itself? Can the Government tell us clearly what specific arrangements Hong Kong has made with the Mainland? For example, if a Hong Kong resident is detained in the Mainland, is there a mainland department that will inform the Hong Kong Government?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonee): Mr MA, you have just said that you mainly want the Government to tell you more, that means your supplementary question has already been answered, so you have to wait for your turn to ask again.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, my supplementary question is very close to that of Mr MA Fung-kwok. In paragraph (a) of the main reply, the Government has mentioned the phrase "as far as we know" and the Secretary has on several occasions indicated that she heard about the cases. As regards the requests for assistance, it appears that the Government is rather passive, and it also seems to indicate that there is no arrangement in place for the Mainland to inform Hong Kong about this matter. Will the SAR Government put in place a clearer mechanism to propose to discuss with the Mainland to allow the various parties concerned to have an early knowledge about the situation and to allow the Administration to promptly provide assistance to the detainees or their relatives and friends?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the information that I have, in over 20 cases, we only learned about them from the relatives and friends of the detainees who contacted us. There is no mechanism at the moment for the Government to request the various provincial or municipal authorities in the Mainland to inform the SAR Government as soon as they learn about Hong Kong residents being detained on account of civil or criminal proceedings. However, we can consider bringing it up with the mainland authorities about establishing such a mechanism.

MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I feel that the answer of the Secretary earlier is downright ridiculous. How can a Hong Kong resident make any request to the mainland authorities on his own? The question is what measures the SAR Government can take now. I have told the Secretary a few cases where one of the detainees has been held for over 10 years now. What we are dealing with are cases where Hong Kong residents are detained illegally. We are not talking about intervening in the Mainland's judicial system. Normally, when someone is detained illegally, everyone knows as soon as the court receives money, it will release the detainee. But poor people cannot afford to pay money to the court. In that case, does the Government only play the role of a messenger and nothing else, and unpatriotically stand back, not giving a hand to improve the judicial system in the Mainland? We hope that the Hong Kong Government can do more.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have already said that under the judicial system of the Mainland, it is the People's Procuratorate to carry out the legal supervision on the criminal lawsuits as provided by law and it has the power to do so. If someone, no matter a mainland citizen or a Hong Kong resident, considers that a detention or prosecution is not in order with the judicial system he may complain to the People's Procuratorate. As far as the SAR Government is concerned, it always adheres to the principle of not interfering with others' judicial procedures, be it under the mainland, overseas or any other jurisdictions, just as we do not wish others to interfere with ours. Hence, we do not question whether a certain step has not been executed right in other jurisdictions. But if we receive complaints, we will certainly refer them to the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office of the State Council and request for its follow-up action.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has been mentioned that some cases still remain unresolved. May I ask whether, in any of these cases, the detainees involved have not been allowed to meet their families or lawyer? If yes, what measures can the Government take?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not have the detailed data in hand and hence cannot provide Mr NG with the number of cases where the detainees have not been able to meet their families or lawyer. But if we receive such complaints, we will certainly refer them to the mainland authorities in the hope they will be dealt with in accordance with the law in the Mainland.

MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Madam President, it depends on the power of a nation whether it can improve its international relations. But now to improve the relationship between the SAR and the Mainland, I believe that it depends on whether the Government has the courage to bring it up. In fact, I do have a very strong feeling about the situation mentioned by Mr LEE Cheuk-yan. It so happened that several of the cases involved foreign nationals, and because Hong Kong was unable to handle them, the people concerned approached foreign organizations, such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the United States, for help and the cases were subsequently taken care of promptly in the Mainland. The supplementary question that I would like to ask is: Can the Government, in a reasonable circumstance, offer some judgement on the detention cases, concern more and watch their development more closely? Is the Government willing to do so? In addition, will it be more convenient for our the Beijing Office of Hong Kong to follow up the cases?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretaries, who will answer this?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I have to stress that there is no difference whatsoever in our handling of Hong Kong residents' request for assistance from outside Hong Kong, be they in the Mainland or other countries. For example, recently a Hong Kong resident, who is deaf and dumb, was found hawking toys on the street in Singapore and subsequently sentenced to six months' imprisonment. His relatives complained to us that the sentence was unfair. On the basis that we do not interfere with the judicial procedures of other places, we cannot complain to the Singaporean Government that it is unfair. Nevertheless, we assisted the person in contacting the relevant organization and referred his request for assistance to the Chinese Embassy in Singapore. Similarly, for Hong Kong residents detained in the Mainland, if they need to approach us for help, we will also do our best to meet their needs, but it is very difficult for the SAR Government to make a judgment here as regards whether there is a contravention of judicial procedures in the Mainland. Nevertheless, on receipt of complaints, the Constitutional Affairs Bureau will certainly bring them up with the relevant units through the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office. As to the question of how our Office in Beijing handles such cases, Madam President, perhaps it would be more appropriate for the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs to answer it.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, let me make a brief explanation here. If we receive such complaints, we will usually refer them to the immediate superior authority of the target of complaint. For example, complaints against the municipal public security office will be referred to the provincial public security office; complaints against the Middle People's Court will be referred to the High People's Court. This is what we do to directly follow up the complaints that we receive. Our liaison with the Mainland are mainly via the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office. As regards whether our Office in Beijing can follow up these matters, we have not yet had such experience as we have to take into account of our limited manpower in the Office. Our staff mainly work in Beijing while the cases that we know of so far have happened in different provinces and cities all over the country, and we cannot assume that they all happen in Beijing. So, there are practical difficulties in having the Office in Beijing deal with these cases. In this regard, we have to consider the deployment of manpower. Since the Office in Beijing has just begun its operation, we need some time for acclimatization and then review on the situation before deciding what is to be done.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I wonder if you would allow me to ask this question. I know of a case involving a man who ran a business in the Mainland. He got a shipment of goods. Later his business failed and he is now detained on account of criminal fraud. His wife knew that she would secure her husband's release as soon as she paid a certain amount of money to the relevant authority. She thus hired a lawyer as her agent and gave him the money but that lawyer subsequently disappeared. She is worried but does not dare to apply for a Home Visit Permit to visit her husband for fear of being arrested herself once she arrives in the Mainland. Now she has no one to turn to for help. I wonder if the various Secretaries can advise us on how we can help this person out.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, as you have said, Members are not allowed to ask about specific cases. But I hope that the Secretary would answer the question in terms of the principle involved.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is very difficult for me to discuss the details of this case with Mr WONG. But as Mr LEE Cheuk-yan has said, we are also obliged to impel the improvement of the legal system in the Mainland. If there is such a case, the relatives or representative lawyer of the defendant should act in accordance with the Chinese laws. The Chinese Criminal Litigation Law states, "The People's Courts, the People's Procuratorates and the Public Security bodies shall, when executing criminal litigation, rely on the people, base on the facts and act in accordance with the law. Every citizen shall be equal before the law." It also states, "The People's Courts shall judge all cases in public. The People's Courts are empowered to guarantee all defendants the right to be defended." They should take appropriate action in accordance with these principles.

Another point I would like to add is how we are to provide assistance to Hong Kong residents who got into trouble in the Mainland, as mentioned by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs. Although we have an office in Beijing only, I have consulted the Trade Department and the Trade Development Council (TDC) and found that the TDC has 11 offices located in various parts of the Mainland. The staff of these offices are very familiar with the business laws and frequently give advice, including legal advice and how to follow up with the internal organizations, to Hong Kong businessmen operating in the Mainland and provide them with much assistance as well. In case Hong Kong residents run into difficulties in their business, they can also seek advice at the TDC offices.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, as we have already spent 16 minutes on this question, although many Members are still waiting for their turn to ask questions, I have to disappoint them and stop here. Fifth question.

Reporting of Industrial Accidents Involving Casualties

5. MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is reported that the total number of industrial accidents and accident rate per 1 000 employees in all industries in 1997 increased by 6% and 12% respectively as compared with the corresponding figures in 1996. It is also reported that an employer failed to notify the Labour Department within the statutory time limit of an industrial accident which took place at a construction site in Tseung Kwan O in December 1997. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of complaint cases received in the past year concerning employers failing to report industrial accidents involving casualties to the Labour Department; the number of prosecutions instituted in such cases and the average penalties that the courts imposed on the convicted offenders;

(b) as the Administration will consider the contractors' performance records on industrial safety when selecting contractors for government projects, of the measures the Labour Department adopts to ensure that the accuracy of such records will not be affected by contractors' deliberate failure to report industrial accidents involving casualties; and

(c) of the measures to further reduce the number of industrial accidents; and whether it will consider stepping up prosecutions against those people who fail to comply with industrial safety provisions?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President,

(a) Under the Employees' Compensation Ordinance (the Ordinance), an employer has the duty to notify the Commissioner for Labour of any injury or death caused to his/her employees by accident arising out of and in the course of employment. Injured employees can also report their work accidents to the Labour Department by providing written information on the details of accident and particulars of their employers. In 1998 the Labour Department received 64 794 reports of work accidents from the employers. In addition, the Labour Department received from injured employees reports of 1 886 accidents which were not initially reported by their employers.

Action was taken to follow up on each of the 1 886 cases. In 1 265 cases, the employers subsequently submitted notice of accidents to the Labour Department. 85 cases have been referred to the Legal Aid Department for assistance or to the court for adjudication due to dispute over liability. 214 cases have been subsequently withdrawn by the employees. The Labour Department is taking follow-up action on the remaining 322 accidents reported by employees. Such action includes seeking further information from the employer, the employee or the employee's treating doctor on matters related to the injury.

I should add that the non-reporting of a work accident by the employer will not affect the employee's right to claim compensation under the Ordinance. In fact, through the Labour Department's promotional activities and telephone enquiry services, employees who are injured at work and who do not receive compensation from their employers are well aware of their rights under the Ordinance. They will readily approach the Labour Department to provide information or seek assistance, either directly or through third parties such as trade unions.

Under the Ordinance, any employer who without reasonable excuse fails to give notice of accident to the Commissioner for Labour commits an offence. In 1998, prosecution was taken out against two employers for failure to report accidents at work without reasonable excuse. Both employers were convicted and were fined $2,000 and $3,000 respectively.

We will step up prosecutions against those who fail to comply with the Ordinance and continue to publicize the rights and obligations of employers and employees on compensation matters.

(b) The Works Bureau and Housing Department use the reports on industrial accidents by their contractors, as provided under the conditions of the contracts, to monitor the industrial safety records of their contractors. However, accident statistics are just one of the criteria being used in assessing the overall safety performance of contractors bidding for government and housing projects. Other important factors include the contractor's past track record on safety, reports of safety audit and the implementation of safety management on their sites.

As the Labour Department's accident records are updated on the basis of reports from employers as well as injured employees, we will consider with the Works Bureau and the Housing Department whether, and, if so, how the Labour Department's accident records could be passed to them without breaching the legal requirement to preserve privacy of personal data.

(c) The Government attaches great importance to the safety and health of employees at work. Our goal is to achieve long-term improvements in our industrial safety standards through promoting self-regulation by those who have the primary responsibility for safety at work. This goal is best achieved by the Government providing a legislative framework requiring proprietors to adopt a safety management system at the workplace. The Government will encourage the self-regulation approach through education, training, promotion of a safety culture and take enforcement action where necessary. In this connection, we will soon be introducing into this Council the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (FIU) (Safety Management) Regulation on the implementation of a safety management system in selected industrial undertakings. Based on overseas experience, we believe that the safety management system, when effectively implemented, should help to significantly improve our industrial safety records.

The Government is also regularly reviewing industrial safety related legislation to enhance protection to our workers and the effectiveness of our enforcement actions. New or amendment legislation which we have or will be introducing into this Council in the current Session include those on enhancing protection of the safety of workers in confined spaces and working at height on construction sites, and a certification scheme for operators of earth-moving equipment and fork-lift trucks.

Regarding training, the Government will introduce into this Council on 27th of this month the FIU (Amendment) Bill 1999 to require, as a starting point, mandatory safety training for those working in the construction and container handling industries. The new training requirement should help to enhance the safety awareness of the workers concerned and improve the safety performance of these two accident-prone industries.

The Government is also making extensive use of publicity campaigns to promote safety and health awareness among our workforce. Apart from organizing large scale safety campaigns, 260 mobile information stands have been set up in shopping centres, housing estates and government clinics to disseminate pamphlets and booklets on occupational safety and health to the public. The Labour Department also sent safety and health publications to 8 000 registered contractors in the construction industry by direct mail to enhance their safety knowledge and awareness.

The Labour Department has always been taking enforcement action against breaches of industrial safety legislation. For example, depending on the severity of the breaches of safety legislation detected during inspections of industrial undertakings, 1 515 improvement notices, 191 suspension notices and 2 523 prosecutions were issued to or taken against responsible parties in 1998 as compared with 1 848 improvement notices, 36 suspension notices and 2 265 prosecutions in 1997. We will continue to step up prosecutions against those who fail to comply with industrial safety provisions. The Labour Department will also target those high risk working procedures and environments and carry out special blitz operations against them.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has been mentioned in part (a) of the main reply that 1 886 cases were not initially reported by employers to the Labour Department but by workers, out of which 1 265 were subsequently reported by employers. Is there information indicating that out of these 1 265 cases, how many employers did not report the accidents to the Labour Department in accordance with the different requirements of the existing law, that is, within seven or 14 days of the accident? It is indicated in the main reply that among such employers, only two were prosecuted in 1998. Although the employers in both cases were convicted, how can such a low number of prosecutions reflect that the Government has actually stepped up the monitoring on non-reporting of work injuries?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, out of these over a thousand cases, basically all employers were late in submitting reports on work injuries. The law provides that it is an offence of the employer if he has no reasonable excuse. Of course it all depends on individual cases as regards what a "reasonable excuse" refers to, so it is very hard to lump all cases together. According to the past information, however, some accidents were reported late because the companies were newly established and the employers concerned were not clear about the statutory time limit for the notice to be given but they did report them to the insurance companies. Moreover, in the construction industry, it is a general practice for head-contractors to gather all the details of the accidents involving work injuries of their sub-contractors before reporting them to the Labour Department. These situations do exist and hence we have to consider the merits of individual cases. Nevertheless, I have also emphasized in the main reply that even if the employers fail to report work accidents or report them late, that will not affect the employees' right to claim compensation. At the same time, since Mr Andrew CHENG has raised this question, we will consider whether there is a need to step up the prosecution against those who breach the Ordinance.

MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the past few years, we once saw a decline in the number of work accidents but it seems to have bounced back in recent years. As this is a matter of life and limb, would the Government follow the example of the Taipei municipal government in the sense that the mayor of the city requires the Labour Department to report to him the number of serious accidents every day? Will the Education and Manpower Bureau try this out so that the high level officials in the Administration will concern more about this problem?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am prepared to discuss this further with Mr LAU and study the details of it. For any suggestions that can enhance the safety awareness of the whole industry, especially of the employers, and the responsibility that they must bear, I am very willing to study them.

MISS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has been mentioned in part (a) of the main reply that two employers were fined $2,000 and $3,000 respectively for failing to report accidents involving casualties. The deterrent effect of such amounts was obviously insufficient. Has the Government considered raising the level of fines to a higher fixed level so as to increase the deterrent effect? Or will it consider appealing against the fines of these two cases to seek a heavier punishment on the two employers?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, the maximum fine for failing to report the accidents within the statutory time limit is $50,000. Of course there is a big difference between $50,000 and $2,000 or $3,000. Yet, the two cases were already over and on the question of whether we should consider making an appeal or amending the law, we will have to take the overall situation into account. In fact, there is also a comparison between the fines of these laws and other fines. As I have said, our general practice is that we only set a maximum fine and it is for the court to decide the amount of fines to be meted out.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, concerning the over a thousand cases involving the employers' failure to report the accidents as mentioned by the Secretary, I would like to make a calculation here. Among the 1 886 cases in the past year, there were 1 265 in which the employers later submitted notice of accidents to the Labour Department, that means 621 employers did not do so. And among these over 600 cases, 214 have been subsequently withdrawn by the employees. Have the Government investigated why such cases happened? Why did the employees withdraw the cases? Would it show a lower statistical figure of work accidents after someone offers to settle the case, make a compensation in private and have the employee withdraw the case?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, insofar as I understand it, the employees withdrew the cases mainly because they found it was unlikely that their injuries had much relation with their work after discussing it with the staff of the Labour Department. Yet, I am willing to discuss this problem with the colleagues of the Labour Department and see if there is further information.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has been mentioned in part (a) of the main reply that in 1 265 cases, accounting for about 2% of the total, the employers did not report the accidents initially. Will the Secretary tell us whether it was the employers who subsequently took the initiative to report the accidents and they were only a bit late but did not omit their duty intentionally?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, in respect of these 1 265, when we notified the employers, they did quickly submit the notice of accidents to the Labour Department subsequently.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Although many Members wish to follow up this question, I will only allow two more supplementary questions before we move on to the next question.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, a few years ago, senior government officials also admitted that the rate of industrial accidents in Hong Kong was very high in comparison with other developed countries. The Governor then even said that it was an international shame. May I ask the Secretary if the situation has been improved now? What have we done to remove this blot?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have already pointed out in great detail in part (c) of the main reply that in recent years, including this year, we have adopted or plan on adopting various measures in the hope of further enhancing safety at work. I admit that there is still room for improvement in our track record of industrial safety, and hence I am very willing to discuss this issue further with Members on suitable occasions. And we will have many such opportunities soon as the Government will submit many bills to the Legislative Council.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, from part (a) of the Government's main reply, we can see that there were over 66 000 industrial accidents in total in 1998 and as the Secretary has just said, there is indeed a serious problem with our industrial safety. In part (c) of the main reply, the Government has said after the implementation of the regulation on safety management such as the "safety card", the situation will be significantly improved. Has the Government considered any means other than this, such as promoting a change in the employment system of construction workers from the present casual basis to a monthly basis? Should we adopt a multi-pronged approach in order to more effectively promote industrial safety in Hong Kong?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, to improve industrial safety, we may have to adopt many measures concurrently. In respect of the construction industry mentioned by Miss CHAN Yuen-han, our measures include: to require employers to provide a safe working environment and introduce a safety management system, and at the same time require employees to undergo mandatory safety training. In respect of the working conditions and employment system, such as turning the casual workers into permanent workers or paying them monthly, I feel that we will have to conduct further studies before we can decide whether it will enhance safety at work.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last oral question.

Cost-effectiveness of Consultancy Studies

6. MR KENNETH TING (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is reported that an organization has pointed out that most of the Government's consultancy contracts were awarded to overseas registered consultancy firms, and others allege that consultancy firms tended to conform to the Government's views and submit reports which were often biased. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether, before inviting public tenders for consultancy studies, it will consider commissioning local consultancy firms and academics of local tertiary institutions to conduct the studies, so as to provide more opportunities for local consultancy firms and the local talent to apply their knowledge; and

(b) of the measures to ensure that the consultant fees are value for money and on a par with market prices; whether the Audit Commission may conduct value-for-money audits on the consultancy expenditure of various government departments in the past three years?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Madam President, relating to part (a) of the question, the procurement of consultancy services by the Government is guided by the principles of transparent, open and fair competition; public accountability and value for money. We are committed to providing equal opportunities to all consulting firms and institutions invited for participating in a consultants selection process. As and when the need for a consultancy study is established and funding is secured, we will invite consulting firms operating in Hong Kong and local tertiary institutions which we consider to have the potential capability of undertaking the consultancy study to participate in the selection exercise. All bids received will be assessed on an equal footing. We do not, for any reason, favour or discriminate against any consulting firms/institutions, local or overseas, in letting out government consultancy contracts. I would also like to add that there is no clear definition for "local" or "overseas" consulting firm. Members may be interested to know that of the 31 consultancy studies awarded upon the advice of the Central Consultants Selection Board in 1998, 25 or 81% went to consulting firms which are either registered companies in Hong Kong or in possession of valid Hong Kong business registration certificates. Of the 60 works-related consultancy studies awarded in 1998, 39 or 65% went to firms with over 50% locals among their professional staff.

Relating to part (b) of the question, to ensure that the consultant fees are value for money, we need to ensure that we are securing the required quality and output of the consultancy services at the best possible fee level. To enable us to achieve this value for money objective, we take into account both the qualitative and price aspects in selecting a consulting firm/institution for undertaking the study. In practice, we require consulting firms/institutions to submit their proposals in two separate sealed envelopes, one for the technical proposals on quality aspects and the other for the fee proposal. The technical proposals are assessed first, using a pre-determined marking scheme and the technical bids are ranked in order of merit. Only bids which are assessed to be technically competent would be considered further. This is to ensure that the quality of services to be provided is acceptable. After the technical bids have been ranked, the Fee Proposals from bidders are opened. On the basis of a pre-determined system of evaluation and weighting, the Fee Proposals are then combined with the Technical assessments to determine the winning bid. This combined quality and price scoring method ensures that we are getting the best value for money in our procurement of consultancy services. And, as the selection and appointment of consultants is conducted through a competitive bidding process, we are assured that the consultant fees are in line with market trends.

In accordance with the arrangements agreed between the Director of Audit, the legislature and the Administration, the Director of Audit may conduct value- for-money audits on expenditure related to consultancy services.

MR KENNETH TING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask a follow-up question. According to a survey conducted by an organization, some consultants cater to their clients' likes when they carried out researches in the past and they gave different clients different answers on the same research topic. To avoid the recurrence of the same problem and guarantee the quality of consultancy reports, will the Government consider establishing a monitoring group including independent persons to monitor the quality of consultancy reports?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would first clarify that the Government does not agree that the consultancy firms it engaged would cater to the Government's likes when they prepare reports. In fact, before we conduct consultancy studies, we have explicitly stated in the brief introductions given to consultants the objectives and scope of studies and ask consultancy firms that are interested in participating in the tenders to state clearly the strategies they will adopt and the results they will give the Government after the completion of their studies. Therefore, we have reasons to believe that this system will pre-empt consultancy firms from catering to their clients' likes when they work. Mr TING has asked a practical question — whether we will establish a mechanism comprising independent persons in monitoring consultants' work. We actually do not have a comprehensive mechanism in this area now but we will invite independent persons to assist the relevant government departments in carrying out the selection process when necessary as well as monitoring the progress and performance of consultancy firms, and we have actually been doing so. I would like to cite two examples. In regard to the consultancy studies conducted by the Industry Department including regular market and economic result surveys on industries and the four major trades in Hong Kong, the Industry Department will, at the stage of consultancy firm selection, invite independent persons outside the Government to take part in the selection process. After a consultancy firm has been commissioned, the Industry Department will set up a steering committee comprising independent persons to monitor the progress and performance of the commissioned consultancy.

Another example is the selection exercise for consultants to study the Y2k Bug problem held by the Financial Services Bureau last month. During the selection process, the Financial Services Bureau invited representatives of the Securities and Futures Commission, the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, the Bankers' Association and the Hong Kong Futures Exchange to participate in the work of the Steering Committee. Therefore, Madam President, when the Government deems it necessary, we will invite independent persons to participate in the selection process and the work of the steering committee. The Administration does not agree that we do not have a sound mechanism for monitoring the performance of these consultancy firms.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is stated at the end of the first paragraph of the main answer that of the 60 works-related consultancy studies awarded in 1998, 39 went to firms with over 50% locals among their professional staff. Are these 39 consultancy firms registered in Hong Kong or are they foreign firms employing locals?

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Cantonese): Madam President, these contracts were awarded to firms registered in Hong Kong and more than 50% of their employees are locals.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, many large scale and high technology projects have been carried out in Hong Kong. I wonder if the two Secretaries will consider introducing a technology transfer condition in future tender documents for commissioning consultants, specifying that they have to conduct lectures of a certain number of hours to allow local engineers, the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers or university students taking engineering studies to know more about high technologies so that Hong Kong can retain or export such technologies to foreign countries in the future?

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am grateful to Dr HO for his suggestion. In fact, I believe that we did utilize engineering data in respect of large scale engineering projects and invited the personnel concerned to give speeches at the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers in the past. Depending on the project arrangements, we will very often specify in contracts how locals can work together with consultant engineers to give more opportunities for technology transfer.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, my supplementary question is somewhat similar to that asked by Dr Raymond HO but the scope of mine may be wider. We certainly do not hope that Hong Kong will discriminate against international consultancy firms and we also hope that they will help the development of local firms. As many small and medium sized local consultancy firms may not be able to undertake large scale consultant engineering projects in terms of technology and talent, I would like to ask if the Administration will, when awarding contracts to consultancy firms, especially international consultancy firms, consider requiring them to co-operate with local consultancy firms and subsequently engage in technology exchange or transfer so as to upgrade the technological level of local consultancy firms and enable local firms to undertake large scale consultant engineering projects in the future?

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe that we can look at the supplementary question from two angles. As Mrs CHOW has said, local consultant engineering firms in general have shorter history and employ less personnel than large firms, therefore, it is difficult for them to undertake many large scale projects alone. However, we have specified that if there are smaller scale projects at contract costs of less than $3 million — sometimes, we will even extend the limit to $5 million as the case may be — we will specify that such projects should be carried out by smaller scale firms employing less than five professional staff. As consultancy engineering contracts of the Architectural Services Department are classified into large, medium and small contracts, there are more opportunities for smaller scale firms to take part in our consultancy studies. At present, we still have no mechanism for specifying rigidly that larger firms should co-operate with local firms when carrying out large scale projects. But we are willing to carefully consider this suggestion and examine its feasibility or the problems that would be encountered.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, this Council has spent more than 15 minutes on this question. Question time shall now end.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Survey on Job Vacancies

7. DR LUI MING-WAH (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the respective numbers of existing job vacancies in the service and manufacturing sectors of Hong Kong, together with a breakdown of the vacancies by entry qualifications; and

(b) whether it will consider recruiting the unemployed to conduct a comprehensive survey on the number of vacancies in the market and the entry qualifications required, so as to implement the Job Matching Programme (JMP) effectively?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President, the Census and Statistics Department (C&SD) has been conducting a regular survey on employment and vacancies in the private sector on a quarterly basis since 1980. This survey collates data from about 60 000 sample establishments covering most of the major industries in Hong Kong. The statistics so compiled can be analysed by industry and occupation and also by the skills and educational requirements of the jobs. They provide reliable indicators of the employment and vacancy situation of the labour market at regular intervals.

The C&SD employs, through the Local Employment Service of the Labour Department, an average of 100 temporary field survey officers to help conduct each of the four quarterly surveys on employment vacancies in a year. Any unemployed person who possesses the relevant skills (such as interview techniques) and experience in conducting statistical surveys may apply for such posts as and when such vacancies are available.

Against the above background, my replies to the specific part of the question are as follows:

(a) According to the results of the latest quarterly survey on employment and vacancies, as of September 1998, there are 2 011 and 21 736 job vacancies (other than those in the Civil Service) respectively in the manufacturing and services sectors in Hong Kong. The breakdown of these job vacancies by skill level and educational requirement are at Annexes A and B respectively.

(b) The C&SD has been conducting quarterly surveys on employment and vacancies in the private sector, which can be analysed by skill level and educational requirement. We do not consider it necessary, for the purpose of effectively implementing the JMP, to conduct a comprehensive survey on the number of vacancies in the market and the entry qualifications required for the following reasons:

First, the statistics obtained from the quarterly survey on employment and vacancies conducted by the C&SD can adequately reflect the profile of job vacancies in the labour market. Moreover, since this survey is done on a regular basis, the results should provide reliable and representative indicators of not only the level but also the changes in the job vacancy situation in the labour market over time.

Second, given the volatility of the labour market and the mobility of Hong Kong's labour force, it is practically impossible to capture all the job vacancies in each individual establishment in Hong Kong in any single survey with results made available promptly enough to serve the purpose of job-matching at any one current time.

Third, since early this year, the Labour Department has been implementing a series of measures to improve the effectiveness of its Local Employment Service (LES) in helping unemployed job-seekers find jobs. It has strengthened the service capacity of its JMP; extended the public access to job vacancy information by installing more touch-screen computers for displaying vacancies and disseminating vacancies through the Internet; and set up a new Telephone Employment Service Centre to provide telephone job matching service. In the meantime, it has also been opening up an increasing number of job vacancies for direct application by job-seekers after seeking consent from the relevant employers. Despite the downturn in the economy during the past few months, the Department has managed to find jobs for an average of 4 000 people each month.

In the first 11 months of 1998, the LES received a total of 128 443 vacancies, of which 21 131 came from the manufacturing sector and the rest were from the services sector. To enlarge its pool of vacancies, the Department launched an Employment Information and Promotion Programme in August 1998 to proactively approach employers for more vacancies.

To improve the efficiency of the job matching process, the Department set up a Job Vacancy Processing Centre to centralize the receipt and processing of vacancy orders on a trial basis on 21 December 1998. The Centre is now able to circulate all vacancy information to all LES branch offices within 24 hours after receiving a job order from an employer. Such information will be put to immediate use by the 10 LES offices throughout the territory and the newly established Telephone Employment Service Centre. Any job vacancy offering competitive wages can, on average, be filled within 72 hours.

The Labour Department will monitor the progress and effectiveness of these measures with a view to seeking further improvements as and when appropriate.

Annex A

Table 1 Number of Vacancies, other than those in the Civil Service, in the Manufacturing and Services Sectors, analysed by Skill Level

	Managerial and professional	Supervisory and technical	Clerical and secretarial	Craftsman	Operative	Unskilled	Total
Industry Sector	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998
Manufacturing	144 (7.2)	264 (13.1)	150 (7.5)	252 (12.5)	905 (45.0)	296 (14.7)	2 011 (100.0)
Services	1 704 (7.8)	7 665 (35.3)	3 915 (18.0)	713 (3.3)	4 513 (20.8)	3 226 (14.8)	21 736 (100.0)
Wholesale, Retail and Import/Export Trades, Restaurants and Hotels (1)	360 (4.0)	2 326 (25.8)	1 774 (19.7)	284 (3.2)	3 051 (33.9)	1 207 (13.4)	9 002 (100.0)
Transport, Storage and Communications (2)	207 (12.8)	264 (16.3)	460 (28.4)	167 (10.3)	265 (16.4)	255 (15.8)	1 618 (100.0)
Financing, Insurance, Real Estate and Business Services	801 (12.9)	3 342 (53.6)	836 (13.4)	73 (1.2)	41 (0.7)	1 140 (18.3)	6 233 (100.0)
Community, Social and Personal Services (3)	336 (6.9)	1 733 (35.5)	845 (17.3)	189 (3.9)	1 156 (23.7)	624 (12.8)	4 883 (100.0)

Source: Quarterly Survey of Employment and Vacancies and Supplementary Survey of Job Vacancies

Notes: Figures in brackets denote the percentages of the totals of the respective industry sectors.

(1) Exclude those in Hawkers and retail pitches (other than market stalls).

(2) Exclude those in Taxis, public light buses, goods vehicles, barges, lighters and stevedoring services.

(3) Exclude those in Public administration, veterinary services, religious organizations, authors and other independent artists, domestic helpers, and miscellaneous recreational and personal services.

Annex B

Table 2 Number of Vacancies, other than those in the Civil Service, in the Manufacturing and Services Sectors, analysed by Education Requirement

	Primary and below	Secondary/ Matriculation	Tertiary education: degree courses	Others*	Total
Industry Sector	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998	September 1998
Manufacturing	1 224 (60.9)	458 (22.8)	167 (8.3)	162 (8.1)	2 011 (100.0)
Services	3 772 (17.4)	12 083 (55.6)	2 417 (11.1)	3 464 (15.9)	21 736 (100.0)
Wholesale, Retail and Import/Export Trades, Restaurants and Hotels (1)	1 913 (21.3)	5 392 (59.9)	673 (7.5)	1 024 (11.4)	9 002 (100.0)
Transport, Storage and Communications (2)	124 (7.7)	968 (59.8)	257 (15.9)	269 (16.6)	1 618 (100.0)
Financing, Insurance, Real Estate and Business Services	629 (10.1)	3 905 (62.7)	1 058 (17.0)	641 (10.3)	6 233 (100.0)
Community, Social and Personal Services (3)	1 106 (22.7)	1 818 (37.2)	429 (8.8)	1 530 (31.3)	4 883 (100.0)

Source: Quarterly Survey of Employment and Vacancies and Supplementary Survey of Job Vacancies

Notes: Figures in brackets denote the percentages of the totals of the respective industry sectors.

* Refer to crafts courses in technical institutes, post-secondary technical/vocational education and tertiary education: non-degree courses.

(1) Exclude those in Hawkers and retail pitches (other than market stalls).

(2) Exclude those in Taxis, public light buses, goods vehicles, barges, lighters and stevedoring services.

(3) Exclude those in Public administration, veterinary services, religious organizations, authors and other independent artists, domestic helpers, and miscellaneous recreational and personal services.

Consultancy Study on Financing of Health Care Services

8. MR MICHAEL HO (in Chinese): It is reported that a consultancy study on financing of the Hong Kong health care services co-ordinated by the Government has been completed. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the detailed instructions given by the steering committee concerned in commissioning the consultancy study;

(b) of the areas with which the recommendations in the consultancy report are concerned; and

(c) whether the scope covered by the consultancy report exceeded the steering committee's instructions; if so, of the details?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) The Steering Committee on the Consultancy Study on Financing of Hong Kong's Health Care System was set up to monitor the progress of the consultancy study, and to provide advice to the consultants in the course of the study. Given the independent nature of the consultancy study, members of the Steering Committee did not give instructions as such to the consultants in respect of any particular areas of the study, but provided views and comments on the papers prepared by the consultants and discussed at the Steering Committee meetings. Throughout the study, the consultants have exercised their own judgement in considering various views raised by different Steering Committee members.

(b) The tasks of the consultants include, inter alia, an examination into the strengths and weaknesses of Hong Kong's health care system, compilation of a set of domestic health accounts showing our health care funding sources and expenditure pattern, and a projection of the local future health care costs. On the basis of these findings, the consultants will recommend, for our consideration, different reform options in respect of the financing and delivery aspects of our health care system. In putting forward the options, the consultants aim at achieving more efficient utilization of resources devoted to the health care sector, and assuring that quality health services continue to be available at a cost which is affordable to both the Government and the community as a whole.

(c) As noted in (a) above, the consultants are commissioned by the Administration as independent consultants to provide professional and impartial advice on Hong Kong's health care system. They are not obliged to follow any party's instructions which would compromise their independence. The findings and recommendations contained in the Consultancy Report will represent the views of the consultants themselves.

Unlicensed Ferry Services

9. DR RAYMOND HO (in Chinese): It is reported that a company is recently operating unlicensed ferry services, plying between Cheung Chau and Tsuen Wan or Tuen Mun, and that the ferries in question are not equipped with safety facilities and life saving apparatus that meet the statutory requirements. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the actions taken by the Administration against the company operating unlicensed ferry services; whether such actions included prosecution against the company; if not, of the reasons; and

(b) whether any companies have been found operating the above ferry routes without a licence in the past; and of the number of cases in which the operators were prosecuted?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, the Administration is aware of the reports on unlicensed operation of ferry services between Cheung Chau, Tuen Mun and Tsuen Wan. No licence or franchise have been issued under the Ferry Services Ordinance to any operator to carry passengers plying these routes and charging individual fares.

Upon receipt of information about the alleged unlicensed ferry services, the Marine Department and Marine Police have stepped up enforcement action in their routine harbour patrols and checks. Between September and December 1998, 11 enforcement operations were carried out by the Marine Police. Three summonses were issued to the operators for operating or managing a ferry service without a franchise or licence. All these summonses are scheduled to be heard by the court.

The Marine Department had also conducted inspections of the concerned vessels. They were found to have satisfied the safety requirements under the Merchant Shipping (Launch and Ferry) Regulations. On five occasions, marine related offences have been detected and prosecution action initiated. Three vessels were found in operation without a certified engineer, one entering Airport Restricted Area No. 1 without permission and one berthing alongside seawall which was prohibited to such activity. The case in respect of illegal entry of restricted area has been fixed for hearing at the Tsuen Wan Magistracy. The other cases are still pending summons action.

The Marine Police and Marine Department will continue to take enforcement action against ferry operators who violate maritime laws and regulations.

Services Provided by the Correctional Services Industries

10. MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Chinese): Regarding the provision of services to other government departments by the Correctional Services Industries (CSI), will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the printing services currently provided by the CSI;

(b) of the current progress on the CSI's plan to set up production lines for dry-pressed paving blocks; and

(c) whether the CSI has planned to introduce new services, such as Chinese word processing service; if so, of the details?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) Printing services currently provided by the CSI include: printing of name cards, circulars, invitation cards, programmes, booklets, posters; making of envelopes, pockets and folders; and book binding and so on.

(b) A dry-pressed paving block making machine was installed in the Tai Lam Correctional Institution in October 1998. Commissioning tests of the machine and training of staff and inmates have been completed. Trial runs have also been conducted to produce sample blocks which were found to be meeting government standards by the Public Works Central Laboratory in the end of 1998. The CSI is now working with the Highways Department on details of the production requirements such as colour and quantity. The production line will commence mass production by late January 1999. It will provide employment opportunities for 30 inmates with a daily output of about 12 000 blocks.

(c) The CSI always looks for scope for providing new products or services for other government departments. New services now under planning include a new production line at the Pak Sha Wan Correctional Institution which will be operational around July this year to provide laundry services for government clinics. New technology will also be introduced in the silkscreening workshop in the institution for printing of T-shirts and laser engraving for souvenir plaques. A new dedicated production line is also being planned for the Tai Lam Correctional Institution for making stainless steel items such as barriers and trolleys. Other than Chinese printing service, there is little demand for other Chinese word processing service within the Government. As a result, the CSI is not providing such service to other departments.

Operation of Private Fitness Centres

11. MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Chinese): It is reported that a person died from a suspected heart attack recently after practising jogging for 10 minutes in a privately run fitness club. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of privately run clubs or fitness centres in Hong Kong (referred to collectively as "fitness centres" hereinafter) equipped with fitness equipment; and whether it knows the total number of fitness coaches currently employed by such fitness centres and among them, the number who have undergone professional training;

(b) whether there is legislation requiring persons engaged as fitness coaches must have undergone professional training; if not, whether the authorities have any plans to formulate such legislation; and

(c) whether it knows the proportion of fitness centres which provide medical examinations for new members to the total number of fitness centres in Hong Kong; and the items covered by such medical examinations; and whether the authorities will consider formulating legislation requiring fitness centres to provide medical examinations for new members?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) The Office of the Licensing Authority, Home Affairs Department is responsible for the licensing of privately run clubs (with or without fitness centres) in Hong Kong. At present, 46 privately run clubs with fitness equipment or fitness centres are licensed under the Clubs (Safety of Premises) Ordinance. The licensing system mainly serves to regulate the building safety and fire installations of the clubs. Hence, we do not have any data on the total number of fitness coaches currently employed by such fitness centres or the number of coaches who have received professional training.

(b) There is no legislation requiring that persons engaged as fitness coaches must have undergone professional training. The Government is aware that the number of clubs with fitness centres has been on the increase. We will keep a close watch on fitness centres and consider formulating such legislation for monitoring purposes if necessary.

The Hong Kong Physical Fitness Association, an affiliated member of the Amateur Sports Federation and Olympic Committee of Hong Kong, China, is the governing body for physical fitness training in Hong Kong. The Association organizes various training courses (for example, aerobic dance, resistance training, hydro-fitness and elderly fitness) for physical fitness instructors. Persons who have undergone training organized by the Association and passed its assessment are regarded as qualified instructors. There are at present some 1 000 qualified instructors.

(c) We are aware that some privately run fitness centres provide medical examinations for new members. Such examinations include the measurement of height, weight, blood pressure, fat, the rate of heartbeat, and so on. However, owing to the reasons stated in (a) above and the fact that fitness centres are not required to inform the Government whether medical examinations are provided for new members, we do not have data on the number of fitness centres which provide such examinations and their proportion to the total number of fitness centres in Hong Kong.

I have consulted the Secretary for Health and Welfare and Director of Health on the issue. In their opinion, people should exercise their own judgement and consult their doctors to ensure that they are fit enough for the exercises. Doctors generally advise that those who seldom exercise should seek medical advice before taking part in any training programmes involving strenuous exercises. As for those who have health problems, they should also consult their doctors before doing any exercise. At present, the Government will not consider formulating legislation requiring fitness centres to provide medical examination for new members.

Quality of Potable Water

12. DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Chinese): With regard to the quality of potable water in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it knows how the Mainland Government grades the potable water by its quality; the grading criteria thereof; and the grade of Dongjiang water supplied to Hong Kong;

(b) of the contents of the substances in potable water which have been monitored by the Water Supplies Department (WSD) in the past three years; and the frequency of conducting laboratory tests on each substance as well as the results obtained; and

(c) of the water quality standards it currently adopts; and how such standards compare with those adopted by the World Health Organization (WHO) and other advanced countries?

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) At present, the sanitary standard for drinking water adopted by the People's Republic of China is GB5749 (1985), which only has a single grade on the water quality. Dongjiang water is a source of untreated surface water and the environmental quality standard now adopted by the People's Republic of China for surface water is GB3838 (1988), which is applicable to surface waters such as rivers, streams, lakes and reservoirs in the Mainland. Water is classified into five grades according to its quality, with Grade 1 being the best. Recently, the Guangdong Province Environmental Protection Bureau has declared that the water quality of Dongjiang main stream is rated as good between Grade 1 and Grade 2 of GB3838 (1988). As for the quality of Dongjiang water supplied to Hong Kong, samples taken from the intake at Dongjiang are found to be Grade 2.

Raw water supplied to Hong Kong has been contaminated due to the population growth in recent years in the areas along the open channel supply system between Dongjiang and Shenzhen. However, raw water, whether from Dongjiang or Hong Kong reservoirs, is always fully treated before distribution to local consumers, and the quality of potable water supplied by WSD has all along complied with the Guidelines for Drinking Water Quality of the WHO. To prevent contamination of raw water along the supply system, it has been decided to construct a closed aqueduct from Dongjiang to Shenzhen to replace the existing open channel supply system, which will solve the problem in the long run.

(b) The WSD conducts physical, chemical, radiological and bacteriological tests on treated water. More than 100 tests are carried out, including general tests, tests on heavy metal, organic and inorganic compounds, and those listed under the 1993 Guidelines of the WHO. General tests are conducted at a frequency ranging from once every four hours to once a week and the frequency may be increased to once every hour where necessary. For heavy metal and organic compound tests, the frequency normally ranges from once every two months to once every four months. In the last three years (from 1996 to 1998), the monitoring results of the treated water all satisfy the quality standards of WHO.

(c) The WSD is currently monitoring the quality of potable water in Hong Kong in accordance with the latest Guidelines for Drinking Water Quality laid down by WHO in 1993. WHO has set the guidelines values of 72 organic compounds and 22 inorganic compounds on the basis of scientific information and data. Apart from scientific data, other countries also take account of their environmental, social economic and cultural factors when establishing the water quality standards. On the whole, the 1993 Guidelines for Drinking Water Quality of WHO are similar to those adopted by other advanced countries.

Occupations of Provisional District Board Members

13. MR LEE WING-TAT (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council, in respect of each Provisional District Board, of the various types of occupation of its members and the number of members in each type of occupation?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President, the number of members of Provisional District Boards broken down by district and type of occupation is provided in the table at annex.

Past up one tables

Aircraft Noise

14. MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Chinese): It is reported that in order to alleviate disturbance caused by aircraft noise to the residents, the Civil Aviation Department (CAD) has recently made some changes to the flight path arrangements. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether the flight path arrangements will vary with the seasons; if so,

of the details;

(b) whether there is any mechanism in place to regularly monitor the noise levels in the various districts under the flight paths; if not, why not;

(c) whether it will announce the aircraft noise levels in the affected districts on a regular basis; and

(d) of the justifications for excluding aircraft noise from the ambit of the Noise Control Ordinance (Cap. 400)?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) The aircraft noise levels in Hong Kong are within the criteria contained in the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines and international environmental standards, expect in a small area in North Lantau. The Government appreciates that residents in certain districts are not used to aircraft noise since they have all along lived in a relatively quiet environment. In view of this, the CAD has made certain arrangements to alleviate the impact of aircraft noise on the residents.

The use of the runway mainly depends on the wind direction and speed. Under normal circumstances, aircraft take off or land in the opposite direction of the prevailing wind. During summer and autumn when south-westerly wind is prevailing in Hong Kong, incoming flights approach the airport from the north-east, overflying Sha Tin, Kwai Chung, Tsuen Wan, Tsing Yi, and so on, while departing flights take off towards the sea south-west of Lantau Island. (Please refer to Plan 1.)

In order to reduce the number of flights overflying Sha Tin, Kwai Chung, Tsuen Wan, Tsing Yi, and so on, the CAD has introduced some special arrangements after taking into account the views of the Legislative Council Panel on Environmental Affairs and residents of the areas concerned. Subject to acceptable wind direction and speed as well as flight safety not being compromised, incoming flights during the small hours will be arranged, as far as practicable, to approach the new airport by flying over the sea south-west of Lantau Island.

During winter and spring, the prevailing winds in Hong Kong are mostly easterly or north-easterly. Incoming flights approach the airport over the sea south-west of Lantau Island, while departing flights climb towards the north-east and route via either the departure path over the West Lamma Channel or the one over the southern portion of Kowloon Peninsula and the northern part of Hong Kong Island. (Please refer to Plan 2.)

In order to reduce the number of flights overflying Kowloon and Hong Kong Island during late night, the CAD has arranged for departing flights to route via the West Lamma Channel to the south, as far as practicable, from midnight to 7 am starting from mid-October last year. Since the airspace to the south of Hong Kong is also used by incoming flights and air traffic there is very busy most of the time, the above measure can only be adopted in late night and during the small hours when air traffic is light. Having considered the views of the residents concerned and conducted a careful study, the CAD has recently decided to implement the above measure one hour earlier, that is, from 11 pm, subject to flight safety and operational considerations.

(b) An aircraft noise and flight track monitoring system has been installed by the CAD so that both the CAD and the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) could monitor the aircraft noise levels, the utilization of flight paths at different time and the actual flight paths flown by aircraft so as to assess the impact of aircraft noise. At present, there are six monitors in Hong Kong, which are situated in Sha Tin, Tsing Yi, Ting Kau, Tai Lam, Tung Chung and Sha Lo Wan respectively. Additional monitors will be installed by the CAD in Central and Western, North Point and Sai Wan Ho. Installation and commissioning work is expected to be completed around the end of March 1999. In addition, the CAD and EPD have made use of mobile monitoring equipment to measure aircraft noise in various districts from time to time. These monitoring results indicate that aircraft noise levels in districts other than a small area in North Lantau are in compliance with international standards.

(c) The CAD and EPD have presented information on aircraft noise on different occasions (for example, at meetings of the relevant Provisional District Boards). The two departments will continue to provide relevant information to the Provisional District Boards concerned in future.

(d) Aircraft noise is within the ambit of the Civil Aviation (Aircraft Noise) Ordinance (Cap. 312). Under this Ordinance, the Director of Civil Aviation may for the purpose of mitigating aircraft noise impose control measures such as restrictions on the operations of civil aircraft. The existing arrangement is more appropriate than including aircraft noise in the ambit of the Noise Control Ordinance (Cap. 400) because the CAD has a better understanding on the close relationship between aircraft noise and operational procedures given its more extensive and in-depth knowledge of aircraft operations and aircraft noise standards set out in the Convention on International Civil Aviation.

Past up two tables

Government Assistance Sought by Waste Paper Collectors

15. MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): Regarding the recent call by waste paper collectors for assistance from the Government, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the details regarding the government assistance sought by waste paper collectors; and

(b) of the cost incurred on average by the Administration, including the land development costs of the relevant landfills, for disposing of every tonne of waste paper by means of landfill.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a) During recent meetings with the Administration, representatives from the waste paper industry have made a number of requests for government assistance. These may be summarized as follows:

- stop import of waste paper;

- provide direct subsidies of $200 per tonne of waste paper;

- take over the Concordia waste paper mill, and establish a fund with the profits gained to assist the industry;

- waive charges at public cargo working areas;

- reduce diesel fuel tax and vehicle licence fees;

- reduce electricity charges;

- urge exporters to disclose export prices;

- negotiate with a private company, owned by mainland authorities, to lower their import inspection charges for waste paper;

- establish a fund to support the market price of waste paper;

- provide interest-free or low-interest loans;

- provide land for temporary storage of waste paper;

- provide land at low rates/rents for storing and baling paper waste;

- give preference to waste collectors applying to the Special Finance Scheme for Small to Medium Enterprises;

- establish pilot trial waste paper collection centres;

- set up a centralized waste-handling centre.

- provide paper collection bins or cages;

- introduce waste paper recycling schemes similar to those overseas; and

- give policy support to the recycling industry;

The Administration is using a number of criteria to assess the demands:

- it should not take action to help one sector if that damages a different sector of the industry;

- any measures must be consistent with environmental, economic, trade, competition and fiscal policies;

- they should conform to our international trade obligations under the World Trade Organization;

- the Administration will not interfere in private business relationships; and

- legal requirements cannot be ignored.

(b) The average cost incurred by the Administration for disposing of all municipal solid waste, including waste paper, at the landfills was $830 per tonne in 1997, as shown in the following breakdown:

Collection and transportation	$370
Capital and operation costs of Refuse Transfer Stations (RTSs)	$250
Capital and operation costs of strategic landfills	$110
Opportunity cost of land for the three existing strategic landfills	$90
EPD Management cost at RTSs and strategic landfills	$10
Total	$830

Building of a Cruise Liner Pier at North Point

16. MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Will the Administration inform this Council whether there is a proposal to build a cruise liner pier at North Point; if so, whether, in considering the proposal, the Administration will take or has taken into account the requirement to protect and preserve the Victoria Harbour under the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance (Cap. 531)?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Madam President, in March 1998, a private developer submitted a rezoning request to the Town Planning Board (the Board) to rezone a site at Oil Street, North Point, from various zonings to "Comprehensive Development Area" to allow for a hotel and cruise terminal development, and to rezone a small portion of the Victoria Harbour abutting the waterfront between Oil Street and City Garden as "Other Specified Uses" annotated "Pier" to allow for the development of a cruise pier.

In considering this proposal, the Administration has carefully weighed the public benefits of the proposed project to Hong Kong against the preservation of the part of the central harbour that may be affected, as required by the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance. The Administration notes the findings of the "Study on the Cruise Market of Hong Kong" conducted by the Hong Kong Tourist Association (HKTA) that with the growing cruise market within the region, Hong Kong needs new and more modern cruise facilities with higher standard and range of passenger and ship servicing facilities in the medium term if not to lose out to our regional competitors as a hub to the world's progressively modernized cruise line fleets. We also agree to the Study's finding that new cruise facilities would contribute significantly to our tourism industry and to our economy as a whole. Against these benefits is that a small area of the central harbour (about 0.59 hectares) along the waterfront of North Point would be affected. However, it should be noted that the cruise pier is proposed to be built on a piled structure. The intrusion into the harbour is also minimized by the proposed positioning of the cruise pier parallel to the existing waterfront.

As an essential part of the HKTA's Study, a territory-wide site search was conducted and all of the top three favourable sites identified fall within the central harbour. The Government has also conducted a more focused site search along the entire north shore of the Hong Kong Island and, having taken into account all the relevant considerations (for example, land availability, land-use, marine impact, and so on), concluded that the site in North Point proposed by the private developer is the most suitable site.

The Administration, therefore, supports the proposal, in principle, subject to the project proponent's proving to the satisfaction of the Government that any adverse environmental impact of the proposed pier together with its associated dredging work on the harbour would be acceptable under the requirements of the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance.

The rezoning request was considered by the Metro Planning Committee (MPC) of the Board with knowledge of the legal requirements of the Protection of the Harbour Ordinance. Having deliberated carefully the pros and cons of the proposal, the MPC agreed, in principle, to seek a directive from the Chief Executive to amend the relevant Outline Zoning Plan (OZP) as proposed by the private developer.

The Planning Department is currently preparing amendments to the relevant draft OZP for consideration by the MPC prior to its exhibition for public comments. Subject to public comments, the Chief Executive in Council would make a final decision on the proposed change of land use upon the advice of the Board.

Research Assessment Exercise by the UGC

17. MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): Regarding the forthcoming Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) to be conducted by the University Grants Committee (UGC) to assess the research performance of tertiary institutions, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the criteria to be adopted by the UGC in the RAE; whether the same criteria will be adopted for assessing research reports published in local or overseas academic journals, and for those written in Chinese or in English;

(b) of the number of research reports assessed by the UGC in the last RAE and among these research reports, the respective numbers of those written in Chinese and in English, as well as those published in local and overseas academic journals; and

(c) whether research projects funded by the Quality Education Fund are also within the scope of the forthcoming RAE; if so, whether the same criteria will be used to assess these and other research reports; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President, the UGC conducts the RAE periodically as part of the Committee's performance-based recurrent funding assessment process. The first RAE was undertaken in 1993, the second in 1996 and the coming one will be undertaken later this year.

The RAE aims to measure the output and quality of research of the UGC-funded institutions as the basis for allocating some of the research portion of the institutional recurrent grant.

Turning to the specific questions:

(a) The procedures and criteria of each RAE are stated in the relevant RAE Guidance Notes which are made widely accessible to the institutions and the public via the UGC web site (http://www.ugc.edu.hk).

In general, research output items can be submitted for assessment in the RAE if they:

- contain an element of innovation;

- contribute to scholarship;

- are publicly accessible; and

- are of interest to peers and generalizable.

Neither the language used nor the venue of publication is one of the criteria.

Research output items submitted are assessed in the RAE based on whether they attain at least a level of quality that equates to an attainable level of excellence appropriate to the discipline in Hong Kong, and show some evidence of international excellence. All research output items will be assessed against this same standard, regardless of the venue of publication or the language used.

(b) Over 14 000 research output items were submitted for assessment in the 1996 RAE. As neither the language used nor the venue of publication was relevant to the assessment, statistics on these matters were not compiled. Furthermore, in line with the principles of personal data protection and to avoid any possible misuse of such information, the individual submissions and assessments were destroyed soon after the completion of the exercise. It is therefore not possible to provide the detailed information requested.

(c) So long as the research output item meets the criteria stated in (a) above, outputs resulting from research projects funded by the Quality Education Fund may be submitted for assessment in the RAE. They will be assessed against the standard stated in (a) above.

Emotional Quotient of Students

18. DR DAVID LI: It is reported that according to a study conducted by the Baptist University, 25.2% of the secondary students in Hong Kong have low self-esteem, compared with 8.2% of secondary school students in Shanghai. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it knows if any research has been conducted on the emotional quotient of the primary and secondary school students in Hong Kong; if so, the findings of these researches; and

(b) whether it will consider introducing time and stress management courses into the curricula of primary and secondary schools; if not, the reasons for not doing so?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Madam President,

(a) The Education Department is not aware of any similar research being conducted to measure the emotional quotient of primary and secondary students in Hong Kong.

(b) A number of subjects in the existing school curriculum have already incorporated topics on time and stress management, the purpose of which is to help students build up self-esteem and strengthen life skills. Examples of these subjects include General Studies at primary level, and Social Studies, Religious Studies and Liberal Studies at secondary level. The coverage in the above subject syllabuses includes proper use of leisure, development of hobbies, the importance of time management, and coping with stress and failure. Schools are also encouraged to integrate related themes in their personal and social education programmes, class-teacher periods, and counselling programmes.

Supervision Fees Charged on HOS Households

19. MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Chinese): In connection with "supervision fees" currently charged by the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA) on households of Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) estates, will the Government inform this Council whether it knows:

(a) of the total amount of supervision fees to be collected by the HA in the current fiscal year;

(b) of the expenditure items covered by the income derived from the supervision fees;

(c) how the HA determines the levels of supervision fees payable by households of various HOS estates;

(d) of the criteria adopted by the HA in adjusting the level of supervision fees each year;

(e) of the number of HOS estates required to pay supervision fees to the HA in the next fiscal year; and

(f) if the HA will consider lowering the levels of supervision fees in view of the enhanced efficiency of the Housing Department due to the implementation of the Enhanced Productivity Programme (EPP)?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Chinese): Madam President, the HA charges "supervision cost" on flat owners in HOS estates where the performance of property management agents is supervised by the HA. In the current financial year, the total amount of "supervision cost" to be collected by the HA is estimated at about $56 million.

"Supervision cost" incurred by the Housing Department covers management staff cost, maintenance staff cost and administrative overheads.

"Supervision cost" is determined on the basis of cost recovery. Only actual expenses incurred are charged and shared among flat owners.

The HA adjusts "supervision cost" annually, having regard to actual expenses incurred in the current year and anticipated changes in spending pattern in the coming year.

In the next financial year, the HA will levy "supervision cost" on flat owners in 117 HOS estates.

In early 1998, the HA froze "supervision cost" for 1998-99 at the 1997-98 level. Since then, savings in recurrent expenditure have been achieved through implementation of the Business Process Re-engineering Programme and the Management Enhancement Programme. Current "supervision cost" already reflects the minimum input required to monitor the overall performance of property management agents in HOS estates. Since the EPP has not yet been implemented, its possible effect cannot be taken into account at present.

Ambit of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance

20. MISS EMILY LAU (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (the Ordinance) (Cap. 201) was not applicable to the then Governor of Hong Kong before Hong Kong's reunification with China. In this connection, will the executive authorities inform this Council whether the Chief Executive is now subject to the provisions of the Ordinance; if not, whether they have studied if the Chief Executive should be brought under the ambit of the Ordinance; if the conclusion of the study is that the Chief Executive should not fall within the ambit of the Ordinance, of the justifications for that?

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): Madam President, both the then Governor of Hong Kong before Hong Kong's reunification with China and the Chief Executive are subject to the relevant provisions of the Ordinance like all other citizens of Hong Kong. The Chief Executive is not a government employee, nor is he employed by a public body. He is not a "government officer" or a "public servant" as defined under the Ordinance. Accordingly he is not subject to those sections of the Ordinance that only apply to "government officers" or "public servants".

Article 47 of the Basic Law provides that "The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region must be a person of integrity, dedicated to his or her duties". Furthermore, Article 73(9) of the Basic Law provides for a mechanism under which the Legislative Council may pass a motion of impeachment and report it to the Central People's Government for decision if the Chief Executive is charged with serious breach of law or dereliction of duty and he refuses to resign, and if the charge is substantiated by an independent investigation committee chaired by the Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal.

The Administration has no plan to change the current position.

BILLS

First Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bills: First Reading.

HUMAN ORGAN TRANSPLANT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

CLERK (in Cantonese): Human Organ Transplant (Amendment) Bill 1999.

Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bills: Second Reading.

HUMAN ORGAN TRANSPLANT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the Second Reading of the Human Organ Transplant (Amendment) Bill 1999.

The Human Organ Transplant Ordinance came into full effect on 1 April 1999. Pursuant to section 5(4)(c) of the Ordinance, an appropriate registered medical practitioner is arranged, as required, to explain to the donor and the patient before the transplant the procedure and risk involved to make them understand their entitlement to withdraw consent at any time. The purpose of the arrangement is to ensure that both the donor and the recipient understand that the organ transplant is a highly risky medical procedure to both. Some patients may refuse the donation after considering the risk faced by the donor.

According to our experience acquired after the implementation of the Ordinance, the implementation of section 5(4)(c) may meet with certain difficulties. For example, the patient may go into a coma due to the rapid deterioration of his condition, giving the doctor no time to explain the operation to him. Moreover, if the patient is a child, suffering from mental disorder or mentally retarded, the same difficulty also arises. In that case, the transplant may not be carried out legally, which will have an adverse effect on the health of the patient.

To address this problem, we suggest that a new provision be added to the Human Organ Transplant Ordinance, providing that under certain circumstances, such as the patient is unconscious as a result of his disease, or is a child, suffering from mental disorder or mentally retarded and hence unable to understand the explanation made to him as provided in section 5(4)(c), this particular requirement may be waived.

To prevent an abuse of this exemption, we suggest that a registered medical practitioner be required to certify in writing that the patient is incapable of understanding the relevant explanation and that it is not to the best interest of the patient to delay the operation further. The two certificates may be submitted by one or two doctors separately but neither of them should be the one to remove the organ from the donor nor the one to transplant the organ into the recipient. This arrangement for a certificate from a third party should be able to reduce the possibility of the exemption being abused.

Apart from the two certificates, we also suggest that the doctor to transplant the organ into the patient to keep a written medical report stating why it is not possible to explain it to the patient.

Any transplant of organs involving living persons where the donor is not genetically related to the patient or the two have been married for less than three years must be approved by the Human Organ Transplant Board. Copies of the certificates and the medical report must be submitted to the Board prior to the transplant. The certificates and medical reports in relation to transplants that do not need the prior approval of the Board should also be submitted to the Board not later than 30 days after the transplant or such a longer period as the Board may allow.

We also propose to take this opportunity of amendment and formulation of the respective regulation to empower the Board to prescribe the means by which to establish the marriage relationship between the two. The existing legislation has granted the Board the power to prescribe by regulation the means to establish the genetic relationship between the two but not the similar power in relation to their marriage relationship. This omission has rendered the relevant doctor uncertain of what relevant information to obtain to establish whether the marriage between the donor and the recipient have subsisted for not less than three years.

In view of the urgency of the matter, I appeal to Members for their due deliberation of the Bill that we have submitted so as to ensure for such future cases that a patient is incapable of understanding the explanation about the transplant to be operated on him for certain reasons, the transplant may still be carried out legally.

Other than the above proposed amendments, we are now studying other provisions in the Ordinance in detail and later on we will submit to this Council other amendments deemed necessary. Moreover, we will review the Ordinance on a regular basis in future in the light of advances in medical technology and propose amendments when necessary.

Madam President, I beg to move.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Human Organ Transplant (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Second time.

In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, the debate is now adjourned and the Bill referred to the House Committee.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council now resumes the Second Reading debate on the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998.

I accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I have permitted Miss Margaret NG, Chairman of the Bills Committee on Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998, to address the Council on the Committee's Report.

EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 15 July 1998

MISS MARGARET NG: Madam President, as Chairman of the Bills Committee on the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998, I wish to report on the main deliberations of the Bills Committee.

From the outset, the Bills Committee has noted that the Bill follows closely the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission. The main thrust of the Bill is to abolish the rule against hearsay and substitute it with a system allowing general admissibility of hearsay evidence. It will be up to the court to assess the weight to be attached to the evidence. I cannot over-emphasize the significance of this Bill which will fundamentally change the practice, preparation and conduct of civil litigation. Having regard to the views of the practitioners, the Bills Committee has mainly focused its discussion on two issues.

The first issue relates to notice of intention to adduce hearsay evidence. The Law Reform Commission recommended that the present hearsay notice and counter-notice requirements be abolished and no special provision should be made for the giving of notice of intention to adduce hearsay evidence. The issue as to whether such a notice should be given should be left to informal arrangement between the parties.

While the legal profession is of the view that elaborate provisions should not be made for the giving of notice of intention to adduce hearsay evidence, it is not convinced that the issue of notice should be determined on an informal basis.

The second issue relates to the residual power of the court to exclude hearsay evidence. The Law Reform Commission considered that hearsay is something that should go to weight and not admissibility. It recommended that subject to safeguards, in civil proceedings whether held with or without a jury, evidence should not be excluded on the ground that it is hearsay and that both first-hand hearsay and multiple hearsay should be admissible. The legal profession and the Bills Committee have expressed concern about the proposal.

The Hong Kong Bar Association is of the view that the court should be vested with a residual discretion to exclude hearsay evidence in cases where its admission would be unfair and would cause severe prejudice.

Some members of the Bills Committee are concerned that the judge and jury will be faced with the difficult task of estimating the appropriate weight to be given to hearsay evidence. In addition, the shift of the focus from admissibility to weight might result in a great many more court actions brought on the ground of hearsay evidence, as well as lengthened trials as some hearsay evidence might in the end turn out to carry no weight. Consequently, this might lead to a wastage of court's time and increased costs. Other members pointed out that certain hearsay evidence may be of little probative value, but once introduced, would seriously prejudice the minds of the jury, so that the harm cannot be adequately eradicated simply by awarding it less weight.

The Bills Committee notes that the Law Reform Commission, in making its recommendations for reform of law in Hong Kong on hearsay evidence in civil proceedings, had considered the observations and recommendations made by the law reform bodies in other common law jurisdictions, in particular the English and Scottish approach. While the Bill is largely modelled on the provisions of the English Civil Evidence Act 1995, it follows the Scottish approach instead of the English model on hearsay notice, that is, whether prior notice is required should be left to be determined by parties informally.

To facilitate its consideration, the Bills Committee has invited the views of the legal professional bodies in Scotland as well as England and Wales concerning the operation of their systems following the abolition of the hearsay rule in civil proceedings. Members note that Scottish and English legal practitioners are generally supportive of the abolition of the hearsay rule in civil proceedings. However, they have made no specific comments in respect of hearsay notice requirements. Members also reckon that as the English Civil Evidence Act 1995 has only come into effect in early 1997, the time is too short for its effect to be fully assessed.

While the Bills Committee supports in principle the proposal of the Bill to abolish the rule against hearsay, it has reservations about the propriety of Hong Kong taking the drastic step to remove the rule against hearsay and the procedural notice requirements altogether as proposed in the Bill. The Bills Committee has proposed a "half-way house" approach whereby hearsay evidence would be generally admissible in civil proceedings, and the court could exercise an ultimate discretion in exceptional circumstances to exclude hearsay evidence on application of the party opposing to the admission of the evidence. Such discretion should be exercised at the end of a trial except when it is a jury trial, in which case the question of admissibility of hearsay might be argued at the beginning of the trial in the absence of the jury. It is for the opposing party to satisfy the court that the case is an exceptional one and that there are sufficient grounds for excluding the hearsay evidence.

On hearsay notice, the Bills Committee considers that there should be statutory provisions on a simplified notice procedure whereby any party intending to adduce hearsay evidence is required to give advance notice to the other party.

I am glad to report that the Administration, after detailed consideration, has agreed to move Committee stage amendments to the proposed section 47 of the Bill to address members' concern on the two issues. I shall leave it to the Secretary for Justice to address members on these at the Committee stage.

Madam President, the Bills Committee supports that the Second Reading debate on the Bill be resumed today, subject to the Committee stage amendments to be moved by the Administration.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice, do you wish to reply?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 15 July 1998, I introduced the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998 into this Council. The Bill aims to improve the existing law and procedures in respect of hearsay evidence in civil proceedings as recommended by the Law Reform Commission. It abolishes the common law rule against the admission of hearsay evidence and the statutory exceptions to the rule, and introduces a simpler system for its admission.

I am most grateful to members of the Bills Committee, and its Chairman ─ the Honourable Miss Margaret NG ─ for studying the Bill with expedition and care. After consulting the legal profession, it has made the following suggestions, which have been accepted by the Administration.

First, the Bills Committee has suggested that a simplified notice procedure be introduced whereby a party to civil proceedings intending to adduce hearsay evidence has to provide advance notice to other parties in order to minimize the risk of "trial by ambush". This is similar to the practice in England. I shall move an amendment to clause 2 of the Bill by adding a new section 47A.

Second, the Bills Committee was concerned that the Bill would allow the admission of hearsay evidence which is so prejudicial as to outweigh its probative value. While the Administration is of the view that the court would attach no weight to such evidence, the Committee has strongly proposed that the court should be given a residual discretion to exclude hearsay evidence at the end of a non-jury trial and at the beginning of a jury trial, in the absence of the jury. We consider that this proposal is acceptable, and would not defeat the objective of the Bill. Accordingly, I shall move an amendment to the proposed section 47 to implement that proposal.

Third and finally, the Bills Committee has proposed a minor drafting amendment to the proposed section 55B(1). The Administration has no difficulty with this technical suggestion, and I shall move an amendment to the proposed section accordingly.

Madam President, with these remarks and subject to the amendments that I shall move, I commend this Bill to Honourable Members.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 and 3 to 7.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 2.

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that clause 2 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

First, we would like to amend the proposed section 47 which amendment gives the court a residual discretion to exclude hearsay evidence if the party who objects to its admission can show to the satisfaction of the court that the exclusion is not prejudicial to the interests of justice. The discretion may be exercised at the end of a non-jury trial and at the beginning of a jury trial, in the absence of the jury.

Second, we intend to add a new section 47A, which provides that rules of court may specify the hearsay evidence in relation to which a notice shall be served by the party intending to adduce it to other parties. It also provides that such provision may be excluded by agreement of the parties or waived by the person to whom notice is required to be given.

Third, we would like to replace the words "rights" in proposed section 55B(1) by "powers".

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Proposed amendment

Clause 2 (see Annex I)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

MISS MARGARET NG: Madam Chairman, I hope that Members would bear with me if I take a few minutes to explain why the Bills Committee had supported these Committee stage amendments.

Firstly, with respect to section 47, why we wanted the Government to introduce the amendment? First, it works in this way. We should note that in civil proceedings, evidence shall not be excluded on the ground that it is hearsay. Thus, there is a general removal of inhibition of hearsay evidence. It would work only on the objection of the party. That is to say, if nobody objects, it will be admissible. Second, even if a party objects, the objection would only be entertained if the court is satisfied that the exclusion itself is not prejudicial to the interest of justice.

Madam Chairman, we expect this kind of circumstances to be very rare and very exceptional, so that the residual power will not have any major effect in most of the cases.

Secondly, with respect to when the objection may be raised, first, there are cases where there is a jury. Madam Chairman, as many Members appreciate, jury trial in civil proceedings is extremely rare, so then again, the implementation of this Ordinance will not affect most cases generally. There is a different treatment suggested for the jury that the question be considered at the beginning of the trial. This is because jurors, unlike professional judges, may not be able to put some prejudicial evidence out of their minds once it has been introduced. Second, when there is no jury present, the question of objection would only be considered at the conclusion of the proceedings. And this is suggested to ensure that the parties will not be able to use the process of objection to hearsay evidence as a kind of delaying tactics, and the courts will not be clogged up with interlocutory applications.

Thirdly, as far as the informal notice is concerned, the resistance of the informal notice was out of the fear that this will be a way of bringing back hearsay notice through the back door. That is why the amendment is structured in such a way as to prevent this. According to the amendment as drafted, this will not happen. This amendment, firstly, intends to leave practice rules to the courts on the basis of practicality. Secondly, hearsay has already been made admissible. Thus, if no rules are made by the courts, it would be just admissible. But if there is a need to make rules, rules will be made through consultation between the court and the practitioners. Hence, there will be some control that if complicated rules are not perceived to be necessary, no complicated rules will be made.

Then, the kind of rules envisaged is also in the amendment. First of all, the notice bears the fact that hearsay evidence will be used. And secondly, it will be a kind of classification: what kind of hearsay evidence is going to be introduced? This is for the purpose of allowing the other party to prepare, to deal with the hearsay notice. The aim is to ensure that no party is caught by surprise, and the hearing will not have to be adjourned or delayed because someone is surprised.

Finally, if both parties agree, the whole process of notice can be dispensed with even if there are rules made for the notice to be introduced.

Madam Chairman, supposing rules are made and supposing there is no agreement, even if one of the parties fails to comply with the rules, the progress will not be held up and the admissibility will not be affected. The only consequence or the only sanction will lie in courts or the way the judges are going to give the piece of hearsay evidence.

Madam Chairman, the Bills Committee, having considered the proposed amendments very carefully, come to a conclusion that these amendments or the proposed procedures are fair and just, and the simplification of the process, which is achieved in the new regime, will not be impeded and will be allowed in full. The reservations made in the Committee stage amendments preserve remedy against unfairness and exceptional cases. The Bills Committee is very happy to commend these amendments. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the Administration for accepting members' concern in introducing them.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Secretary for Justice, do you wish to reply?

(The Secretary for Justice indicated she did not wish to reply)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendments moved by the Secretary for Justice be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the amendment passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 2 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedule.

CHARIMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council now resumes.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998

has passed through Committee with amendments. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1998.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will resume the Second Reading debate on the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998.

In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I have permitted the Honourable SIN Chung-kai, Chairman of Bills Committee on Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998, to address the Council on the Committee's Report.

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 11 November 1998

MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I table the report in my capacity as Chairman of the Bills Committee on the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998, and I will be speaking on the main points of the deliberations of the Committee.

The Bill seeks to amend the Business Registration Ordinance (Cap. 310) to improve the operation of the business registration system.

The Bills Committee held discussions with the Administration on the question of excessive discretionary powers being granted to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to decide whether a business of a branch of the business is lawful and the possibility for the relevant person to be given the chance to defend before his business is removed from the register.

The Administration clarified that the decision regarding the legality of a business or a branch of the business will be left to the court or a competent authority. Moreover, before the court or a competent authority makes the decision, the owner of the business is given an opportunity of explanation. Hence, the Administration is of the view that it is not necessary to issue a notice to the owner of the business before removing the entry in respect of the business or of the branch from the register, other than gazetting the notice of the removal.

The Committee accepted the explanation of the Administration and noted that the owner of the relevant business is entitled to appeal against the decision of the Commissioner. However, the Committee still considers that it should be stated clearly in the Bill that the Commissioner may exercise the power of removal on the ground that a business has been determined illegal by the court or a competent authority. Eventually, the Administration accepted the suggestion of the Committee and agreed to move a suitable amendment at the Committee stage.

The Committee unanimously supports the rest of the Bill's proposals and the resumption of Second Reading debate of the Bill.

Madam President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for the Treasury, do you wish to reply?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Madam President, I am grateful to this Council for supporting the resumption of the Second Reading debate of the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998. I am in particular grateful to the Bills Committee and the Honourable SIN Chung-kai, the Chairman of the Committee, for the detailed scrutiny of the Bill.

The Bill aims at amending various provisions of the Business Registration Ordinance in order to enable us to streamline and update the business registration system. One of the proposed amendments is to add to the Ordinance a new section 6(4B) which empowers the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to remove the registration of a business or a branch of a business if it was an unlawful business at the time of registration. When enforcing the proposed section, the Commissioner will not take the initiative to decide whether a business or a branch is unlawful. This decision will be left to the court or a competent authority. The Commissioner will de-register a business or a branch only after the court or a competent authority has decided that it is unlawful and the Commissioner has to satisfy that such unlawfulness existed at the time of registration. The existing section 6(4)(a) already empowers the Commissioner to refuse the registration of an unlawful business or branch. The proposed section 6(4B) merely supplements that section. It enables the Commissioner to de-register an unlawful business which has been inadvertently registered.

The Bills Committee considers that we should set out in the proposed section in clearer terms that the unlawfulness of a business or a branch has to be decided by the court or a competent authority. We agree to the proposed amendment. I will move the necessary amendment at the Committee stage.

Madam President, I beg to move.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 5 and 7 to 19.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 6.

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Madam Chairman, I move that clause 6(b) be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

The proposed amendment makes it clear that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue could rely on the proposed section 6(4B) to decide whether he should de-register a business or a branch only after the court or other competent authority has decided that such business or branch is an unlawful one.

Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 6 (see Annex II)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for the Treasury be passed. Will those in favour please raised their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the amendment passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 6 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council now resumes.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

SECRETARY FOR TREASURY (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998

has passed through Committee with amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1998.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions. Two motions with no legal effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have up to 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies, and another five minutes to speak on the amendment. The mover of an amendment will have up to 10 minutes to speak. Other Members will each have up to seven minutes for their speeches.

First motion: Review of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme.

REVIEW OF THE COMPREHENSIVE SOCIAL SECURITY ASSISTANCE SCHEME

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): I now rise to speak with a heavy heart, because when I read the newspapers this morning, I learnt that several old people had probably died as a result of the cold weather. Ours is indeed an affluent society, but our elderly people are still tortured by such a plight. So, I really hope that we can all pay more attention to the conditions of the poor.

Madam President, before I go on with my speech, let me first talk about the survey findings of the private consultant commissioned by the Government. I have read the documents concerned, and noticed several questionable points. But I will not give a detailed analysis of the whole survey here because I will leave this to the Honourable LAW Chi-kwong. I simply want to raise several points here as an introduction to our discussions.

First, I have read the questions asked in the questionnaire. I observe that these questions are invariably asked on the basis of pre-set parameters and assumptions which, I must say, will inevitably lead the respondents towards the desired directions of thinking. With your permission, Madam President, I would like to read out two of these questions. The first one is: If a Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) recipient is capable of earning his own living, and if he refuses to take up jobs available to him, or if he refuses to look for jobs without any reasonable grounds, do you agree that his CSSA payments should be stopped? Let me read out one more of these questions: Do you agree that CSSA recipients who are capable of earning their own living should be required to render regular community services such as beach and country park cleaning before they can get new jobs? Madam President, following the same logic, I can actually ask the following question, and I am very interested in knowing the responses of Honourable Members: For those high-ranking government officials who each earn more than $100,000 a month, do you think that their salaries should be cut if they fail to serve the community as required by their duties, and if they simply ignore the interests of people? The questions in the questionnaire and mine are actually framed on the basis of similar logic. So, even without any further elaboration from me, Honourable Members will certainly know what kinds of answer can be expected. These are all pre-set parameters and assumptions. However, Madam President, these parameters are rather negative in nature, with the result being that respondents will easily be influenced by some preconceptions beforehand. Some examples of these preconceptions are that some CSSA recipients are capable of earning their own living; that they are reluctant to accept jobs available to them; and that they refuse to look for jobs without any reasonable grounds. Very often, Madam President, many CSSA recipients are not really unwilling to look for jobs; the main problem is that they cannot find any. Very often, because of their lower literacy and skills levels, they do find it very difficult to get any jobs, especially when the rate of unemployment is so very high now. But then, the questions in the questionnaire suggest sweepingly that they are all capable of earning their own living but are unwilling to look for jobs! Madam President, can the questions asked with such an approach really reflect the true situation now? I hope the Government can give more thoughts to this, and I also hope that my colleagues in this Council can discuss the matter.

In the CSSA review report released by the Government in December, it is stated that the aim of the review is to encourage and help unemployed CSSA recipients to re-enter the workforce. The Democratic Party supports this policy direction. But we must say that the 10 recommendations made in the review report are indeed much too ambitious and are completely out of keeping with the stated policy objective. The report first assumes that CSSA recipients are unwilling to work despite the availability of jobs. Then, on the basis of such an assumption, it makes a series of negative recommendations, such as reductions of CSSA payments, mandatory unpaid services from unemployed CSSA recipients and penalty for CSSA recipients who refuse to look for jobs. The aim is obviously to exclude CSSA recipients from the safety net, to force unemployed people to look for jobs.

But I must say that the assumption of the review report is hardly convincing, because there is now an over-supply of labour; the growth of our workforce is obviously much larger than the increase in the number of jobs. In the first nine months of 1998, for example, our workforce grew at a rate of 3.66%, but the number of people actually employed during the corresponding period increased only by 1.46%. The review report simply brushes the realities aside, and unilaterally forces all those unemployed CSSA recipients to look for jobs, even at a time when there are simply not enough jobs around. The punitive measures recommended in the review report are not constructive at all, nor can they assist the unemployed in getting jobs again. It can be said that the review report has "prescribed the wrong medicine on the basis of an inaccurate diagnosis".

Well, while the review report fails to prescribe the right remedies to encourage unemployed CSSA recipients to look for jobs, its recommendations, on the other hand, can indeed enable the Government to save $550 million in CSSA expenditure. But let us not forget that the existing levels of CSSA payments, which were set years back through the help of some professionals such as dieticians, are supposed to be able to meet the most basic needs only. So, it is indeed very strange that even when the existing CSSA expenditure can meet the most basic needs only, the Government still thinks that it is possible to cut as much as $550 million. Government officials have repeatedly denied that the aim of the review is to cut down the expenses on CSSA. But it is no use denying, because the review report states that in the process of working out the relevant strategies, consideration was actually given to the immense pressure faced by the Government as a result of the drastic increase in CSSA expenditure in recent years. For example, the first question in the survey reads: "CSSA expenditure in recent years has increased drastically, from $2.4 billion five years ago to $13 billion this year. Do you think that such a rate of increase is very worrying?" Such is the way in which the question is asked. Honourable Members will certainly know the answer even without my telling them. The Democratic Party is very disappointed that the Government has tried to cut down its expenses in the name of helping people. This time, when faced with financial pressure, it has sought to cut CSSA expenses in total disregard for whether or not the recipients will be able to meet their basic needs. Next time, I am afraid that it will resort to the same excuse again and try to axe the assistance for the elderly and the disabled.

As far as the current review is concerned, the Democratic Party urges the Government to withdraw some of its proposals on cutting CSSA payments and to continue to offer CSSA recipients the assistance they require. At the same time, we would also like to put forward some suggestions, in the hope that unemployed CSSA recipients can be helped to find jobs again.

First, we propose that the Government should withdraw its recommendation on reducing the standard rate for three-person families. Our reason is this: While the report proposes to cut the payments for three-person families by 10% and those for families with more than three members by 20%, it cannot produce any justification for such rates of reduction. In the absence of any calculation criteria as support, the Government often refers to the low-income groups when setting the relevant CSSA payment levels, and then concludes that the payments for big families are just too high and will probably affect the desire of the unemployed to find jobs. We are extremely dissatisfied that the Government has tried to cut the CSSA payments for big families without any good justifications. We hope that the Government can do the relevant calculations once again, and the Honourable Fred LI, another Member belonging to the Democratic Party, will discuss this point in greater depths.

Because of the existing criteria used for calculating CSSA payments, the living standard of small families on CSSA is rather low, and the living standard of three-person families is on the low side. Following the release of the review report, the Democratic Party also conducted a survey, but we did not set down so many pre-assumptions, nor did we lay down so many parameters; we simply asked the respondents whether or not they supported a particular proposal. The findings reveal that if we disregard those without any opinions, 34.2% of the respondents consider that the existing CSSA payments for three-person families are adequate if rents are not considered; 35.2% consider that the existing levels of payments are just enough to meet basic needs; and, 30.6% think that the existing levels of payments are simply inadequate. From these findings, one can infer that roughly 69.4% of the respondents think that the existing CSSA payments for three-person families are in fact reasonable and acceptable. Therefore, the Democratic Party urges the Government to withdraw its proposal on reducing the standard rate for three-person families, because this is already the lowest rate acceptable to us. I must also stress that although my motion does not mention the CSSA payments for families of other sizes, this does not mean that the Democratic Party will endorse any government proposal on reducing the payments for them. I have already clarified this with the Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan, and other Members belonging to the Democratic Party will say more on the relevant proposal.

Second, we would very much like to maintain the various special grants for CSSA recipients, such as those relating to spectacles and burial. The review report proposes to cancel a number of special grants available to physically sound adults and children. Some examples of such grants are the spectacles grant for children and the burial grant for physically sound adults. But these grants are indispensable. I remember that when I met with the organizations concerned, one of the petitioners who was a single parent asked a high-ranking government official who was present to take off his glasses. Then, that single parent asked the official how he felt. The official of course replied that he was not feeling very comfortable. Hearing this, the single parent immediately questioned why the Government wanted to cancel the spectacles grant for children. I can still remember this incident very vividly now. The spectacles grant and the burial grant for physically sound adults are indispensable expenses. What is more, one cannot possibly die twice. So, the government proposal in this respect will indeed adversely affect the physical and mental health of CSSA recipients. The incident I related a moment ago can aptly illustrate my point.

In the same survey conducted by the Democratic Party after the publication of the review, it is found that 45.3% of the respondents do not support the proposal of the Government to cut the spectacle allowance, and those in favour of the proposal represent just 30.4% of all the respondents; as for the cancellation of the funeral allowance, 49.9% of the respondents oppose the idea and those in favour represent only a mere 23.9%.

We hope that the Government can think twice about its proposed cancellation of the allowances and continue to offer these special allowances to CSSA recipients. Here, let me urge Members that even if they are not prepared to support the whole motion moved by the Democratic Party this time around, they can still indicate the parts in it which they would support. That way, our opinions will carry more weight when the Government considers the matter. I hope that Members can render their help by doing so.

Third, I wish to talk about some measures which can effectively help CSSA recipients find jobs. We propose that the resources to be used to arrange the proposed no-pay work scheme should be used more effectively for other purposes. As I said a moment ago, most of the measures recommended in the report cannot possibly help the unemployed find any jobs, one example being the proposal to require unemployed CSSA recipients to do no-pay community work. Voluntary work was in fact the original term used ...... these people would be forced to do voluntary work ...... I do not know what kind of voluntary work though. But a different term is now used, and they now talk about requiring CSSA recipients to do community work instead of voluntary work. No-pay work such as cleaning country parks cannot possibly serve any retraining purpose, and employers will probably form a rather negative image of all those who have been required to clean country parks under the proposal. This will make it even more difficult for unemployed CSSA recipients to find any jobs again. In addition, we must note that making arrangements for this type of community work will involve administrative costs. Prior arrangements must be made and this will inevitably incur expenses. The survey conducted by the Democratic Party finds out that only 18.7% of all the respondents support this proposal of the Government, and 52.1% think that the resources for the implementation of this proposal should be used to provide unemployed CSSA recipients with vocational training and job-seeking assistance. Therefore, we propose that the Government should make the best use of the resources concerned by providing full-scale employment services to CSSA recipients. I would like to add one thing here. In some welfare states in the West, there are also some measures under which people who are rendered unemployed by economic recession are required to find jobs again after receiving social security payments for a specified period of time. So, if the Government really works in this direction, there is indeed a chance of success. But I really think that instead of requiring people to do no-pay community work as proposed, we should rather spend the money on providing them with vocational training. This can better enable them to find new jobs.

Another point concerns the provision of full-scale employment services. The review report proposes that layman staff should be deployed to provide job vacancy information and follow up the job-seeking progress of CSSA recipients on a regular basis. But this kind of work can at best only ensure that the CSSA recipients in question have not given up their job-seeking efforts. And, we must bear in mind that most unemployed CSSA recipients are people with low qualifications and very few occupational skills. At this very time when there is an over-supply of labour, this proposal of the Government will not possibly increase their competitiveness as workers and help them find any stable jobs.

So, a more effective method should be the provision of full-scale employment services by professionals, and the range of such services should cover assessment of occupational skills, counselling, provision of or referral to appropriate courses and job-seeking assistance.

In addition, special attention must be paid to those younger recipients and single parents. Day-time adult education on Chinese, English, Mathematics and information technology should be offered to them. I think this is the only way to make the best use of our resources.

The third point concerns the cancellation of the requirement that single parents whose children have reached the age of 12 must start to work full-time again. If Members cannot support the motion of the Democratic Party in its entirety, I hope that they can still give this point some serious consideration for the benefit of those youngsters aged between 12 and 15. As proposed in the report, a single parent on CSSA must look for a job, a full-time job, once his or her youngest child reaches the age of 12. But single parent families in general do face a problem of inadequate means and 12-year-olds are children who are at the turning point of their life. If single parents are thus required to work full-time, the chances of their children going astray will likely increase, and this will probably lead to more social work expenses in the future. Therefore, the Government should withdraw this proposed requirement.

Lastly, I must criticize the Government for its approach in the review. Before the review report was released, the Government repeatedly tried to mislead people by spreading around the saying that CSSA had nurtured lazy bones and that families on CSSA were able to lead a better life than those who earned their own living. Madam President, in the absence of any concrete evidence, if a person says that CSSA has nurtured lazy bones, should we say that he is in fact trying to divide the community? I hope the Secretary can answer this question clearly in her reply: Has CSSA really nurtured lazy bones? I hope I can see her reply in the newspapers. That way, CSSA recipients will not have to be treated like this. And, I must say that the Government simply should not say things like this. I hope the Government can release the relevant statistics as soon as possible, so as to clarify the whole matter. After it had released the review report in December, the Government in fact wanted to end the discussions as quickly as possible. Hence, it allowed only six weeks for consultation. The Democratic Party views that a longer consultation period will probably have been better able to highlight the sincerity of the Government.

Lastly, the Democratic Party agrees that the Government must put in place a scheme to assist the unemployed. And, the Government should explore the possibility of an unemployment insurance scheme. The Honourable Andrew CHENG will shortly give more details in this respect on behalf of the Democratic Party. One possible measure which can be implemented immediately is the provision, under the existing CSSA Scheme, of some allowances which can assist unemployed recipients in seeking jobs, some examples being travel and newspaper allowances. In addition, professionals should also be deployed to provide them with full-scale employment services. I would like to urge Honourable colleagues that even if they cannot support this motion in its entirety, they should still support any part of it to which they agree.

Thank you, Madam President.

Dr YEUNG Sum moved the following motion:

"That this Council is disappointed that under the pretext of helping CSSA recipients to become self-reliant, the Government's review of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme is in effect to tighten the Scheme; at the same time, this Council urges the Government to adopt the following measures in order to attain its established policy objectives and continue to provide the necessary support to CSSA recipients:

1. to withdraw the proposal for reducing the CSSA standard rates for three-person households;

2. to continue to provide the various special grants to CSSA recipients, including the burial grant and the grant for spectacles;

3. to redeploy the resources proposed by the Government for arranging unpaid work for CSSA recipients to provide comprehensive employment services, in order to make optimum use of these resources;

4. to provide comprehensive employment services to CSSA recipients, including assessment of employment skills, provision of training and employment counselling service; and

5. to withdraw the proposal that rigidly requires CSSA single parents to seek full-time employment when their youngest child reaches the age of 12, and to allow these parents to take up part-time jobs, receive education or training."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.

Mr CHAN Kam-lam will move an amendment to this motion, as printed on the Agenda. In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, the motion and the amendment will now be debated together in a joint debate.

I now call upon Mr CHAN Kam-lam to speak and move his amendment.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I moved that the motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum be amended as set out on the Agenda.

Over the past four years, the Government's CSSA expenditure has increased dramatically by three-fold from $2.4 billion to $9.4 billion. Such a huge increase has certainly aroused great concerns among the people. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) is fully aware of the worries of the community about this issue. As the welfare policies of Hong Kong are principally directed at taking care of the most needy in the community, so it is the right of the families of the elderly, weak, handicapped and those without any working ability to apply for CSSA. But the question is, how can we ensure a reasonable allocation of resources given the limited resources available?

The reasons why CSSA expenditure increases year after year is that Hong Kong does not have a sound retirement protection system, causing many people as a result to come under the CSSA umbrella soon after they have lost their working ability or when they have retired. If the Government is really to make a review of the CSSA, then it should make a fresh review of the existing social security system as a whole.

The proportion of welfare spending in Hong Kong is far behind that of a welfare society. Given the present economic recession, it is only natural that the number of CSSA applications will increase. But if we attribute this increase to the applicants of those in the working age bracket, it would be overly biased. The term CSSA is by definition assistance which everyone can apply provided that they meet the requirements. Therefore, if we apply the same criterion to vet the applications which are by nature very complicated and varied in category, there are bound to be areas of dissatisfaction. It is precisely because of this that the DAB proposes this amendment because we feel that we should set the unemployed apart from the rest of the numerous applicants and we should deal with the CSSA applicants separately.

When the proposal for the setting up of an unemployment protection scheme was first mooted in society, the Government vehemently opposed it and stressed that the CSSA Scheme is sufficient in offering protection to the unemployed. Then the CSSA Scheme was widely publicized. But today, the Government makes such a radical change in saying that the increase of CSSA applications from unemployed people is due to their intention to stay away from hard work and be lazy. They would rather receive CSSA payments than work. So the Government proposes to cut CSSA spending. What kind of logic is this?

Madam President, according to the study on CSSA recipients made by the Government, the figures as at the end of 1997 show that more than two thirds of the CSSA recipients are middle and old aged people above 40 years of age. Due to the outward movement of local industries, coupled with the absence of a long-term human resources policy and a poorly-run retraining programme, and given the rapid changes in society, these low-skill workers with low academic qualifications will face a lot of difficulties when they want to be re-employed once they have lost their jobs. As they have lost almost all of their working abilities and in the absence of an unemployment protection system, CSSA will become their last and only support in life when they have no other way out.

In fact, even if there is an increase in the people of working age who receive CSSA in recent years, but if we look at the latest figures, the current 5.5% unemployment rate means a total number of 190 000 people unemployed. In comparison, there were 210 000 CSSA cases in September 1998, among which 26 000 were unemployed people, making up just 13% of the unemployed. From this it can be seen that the proportion is still quite low. These cases are all related to those people who have to apply for CSSA out of genuine need.

According to the current requirements of the Social Welfare Department (SWD), CSSA recipients between the age of 15 to 59 should register with the Labour Department (LD) to find jobs. The SWD and the LD will refer the recipients to the Retraining Board in the hope that they can find a job and do not have to rely on the CSSA. But in 1997, among the 26 000 people who registered with the LD, only 329 people could find a job successfully. The placement rate was only 1.3%. What were the reasons for this? Is there a lack of suitable jobs for these people or is there a discrimination on the part of the employers against these older unemployed people? Are the LD and the SWD not active enough in providing assistance in this respect or are these people really not willing to work? It is imperative for the Government to know why the placement rate of these CSSA recipients is so low in order that remedies can be prescribed to solve the problem. This will also obviate the need to use the simplest method, that is, to reduce CSSA expenditure.

Madam President, the present CSSA Scheme can only provide financial assistance to the unemployed, but their needs are not limited to financial ones. The DAB has suggested to the Government many times to set up a re-employment support scheme to separately deal with the provision of services concerning unemployment assistance and social security.

The thrust of our proposed re-employment support scheme is to urge the Government to provide matching support to the unemployed. Such kinds of support would include financial assistance, retraining, employment and psychological counselling and so on. The unemployed are also encouraged to take part in community services in the hope of restoring their self-confidence in the process.

The kinds of support included in the re-employment support services scheme proposed by the DAB include:

1. Financial support

Applicants must be residents of Hong Kong and they must be in continuous employment in the territory for one year or more. They must be unemployed for one month and registered with the LD for job placement. Unemployment assistance will only be paid out if they are unemployed for two full months. At the same time, applicants have to declare their assets.

Eligible applicants may be granted assistance equivalent to half of the amount of the median wage which is about $5,000 according to the current level, for a period of six months. Should they remain unemployed after the six-month period, they can be transferred to the CSSA Scheme. We think that the unemployment assistance can serve to help the unemployed to tide over their temporary financial difficulties.

2. Skills training

Retraining should be provided for the unemployed for a period of three months to one year.

3. Encouragement be given to community service

A community service and practice scheme should be provided for the unemployed in the spirit of helping others to help themselves. This is to help them establish contacts with society and to rebuild their confidence.

4. Assistance be given to finding jobs

Efforts should be made to enhance the existing job matching scheme and help the unemployed to find jobs. They should not be allowed to suffer and perish helplessly, taking blows after blows of failure.

5. Psychological counselling

Psychological counselling should be given to the unemployed to ease their psychological stress and emotional disturbance.

Madam President, due to the economic downturn in recent years, we believe that there are not many vacancies in the market for the low-skill unemployed. Therefore, when the Government is to implement the re-employment support scheme, it should increase funding to create employment opportunities, such as in the provision of labour-intensive work like community services, taking care of the elderly and children, and in environmental protection, so that the unemployed can return to society.

Some Honourable colleagues are worried that the implementation of this re-employment support scheme will in the end turn into unemployment assistance. But I think this worry is unnecessary. As I have said, what the unemployed people need most is assistance in finding a job instead of financial assistance which is only a temporary relief. So I hope that Honourable Members can support my amendment. The motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum is basically in line with the views held by the DAB. Therefore, we have not made any changes to the principal of his motion with our amendment.

Madam President, I so submit.

Mr CHAN Kam-lam moved the following amendment to Dr YEUNG Sum's motion:

"To delete "at the same time," and to add "to implement a 're-employment support scheme', so as to separately deal with two services, namely unemployment assistance and social security and, at the same time," after "this Council urges the Government"."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam, be made to Dr YEUNG Sum's motion.

Council will now proceed to the debate. Will Members who wish to speak please raise their hands.

MISS CHRISTINE LOH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I share the same feeling as the two Honourable Members who have just spoken. I wish to bring up one point for discussion. I do wish that the Government will not implement this in April, and that is, to require the able-bodied CSSA recipients to undertake some community service. What are my worries? That general response of the media and the public to this is that this is a kind of "reform through labour". The impression one gets from this is very negative. Take me as an example, if one day I have to receive CSSA and if the community would require some service from me, I am perfectly prepared to do so. So I have nothing against this idea. But I think the impression that the proposal will give the public upon implementation is very important. If the scheme gives people the impression of "reform through labour", then it is not a well-thought-out scheme and it is one which people will have doubt. I do not think it is the right time now to implement this new scheme. As it is already January and if we are to launch this scheme in April, can the Government make use of this period of two to three months to set up a system and secure the support of different kinds of organizations so that the CSSA recipients can provide service to these organizations? I do have great reservations on this. If the kinds of work required are simply to clean the streets or to sweep the leaves in the country parks and so on, this may be degrading to the CSSA recipients. Their self-respect may be damaged especially when there is no good co-ordination among the various parts of the scheme.

As to how the organizations can provide work to support this scheme, and how they can co-operate to achieve the scheme's objectives, I think these are very important points to consider. For the time being, I fail to see many such organizations give enough thoughts to how they can support the scheme. I hope the Government can give serious thoughts to the scheme if it really wants to launch it. The Government should give more time to study it or to use some pilot schemes to test its effectiveness. This will serve to meet the needs of the CSSA recipients, make the supporting organizations know how they can help to make the scheme a success and to enable the authorities to set up some ways and means to monitor the scheme. The Government should use six months or a year more to think about this scheme and launch it when the time is ripe. Thank you, Madam President.

MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): First of all, I must applaud the Government for staging such an ingenious show of pitching the poor against the poor. It is very clever in manipulating public opinion to deal a blow on the poor people. Why is that a clever manipulation of public opinion? It is because the Government is so smart in devising this survey which is so full of leading questions. Just now Dr YEUNG Sum has given us an example in which the findings of the survey show that 93% of the interviewees agreed to the idea of stopping CSSA payments to those unemployed people who have working ability but have not been actively looking for work though they are required to do so. I would give the same answer if I am asked a question in this way. It is because the Government has labelled these people as CSSA recipients who do not actively look for jobs! This is very dangerous, for the survey has labelled all CSSA recipients as people who do not actively look for jobs. Does the Government not recognize the fact that it has created a labelling effect? This labelling effect has covered up another side to reality, and that is, it is very hard to find a job in Hong Kong these days. Some people may say that there are a lot of jobs around but these people prefer not to find jobs and just take CSSA payments. But this is a far cry from the truth. The Secretary for Education and Manpower himself is aware of the fact that the current unemployment rate is 5.5%. Many people are aware of this as well and so there is no reason why the Government would label these people in this way.

I must say that the person who is behind all this is the Director of the Social Welfare Department who has provoked this hard feeling against the poor. In a radio programme he once quoted a comment made by a member of the public who said that it was better to get CSSA payments than to work and pay for the rent. I just want to ask him, if he was trying to exaggerate this reaction, was he not provoking the poor to fight against the poor? Why is there no public officer, including the Secretary for Health and Welfare and the Secretary for Education and Manpower who sits next to her, making a remark like, "Wow, with such low wages, how can one afford to pay the rents and support the family? The bosses are so mean when they pay such low wages." Why is nobody making remarks like these? Why are there only people who say that the CSSA payments are so high that it is better to take CSSA money than go out to work. Why nobody makes any comment on the rock-bottom wages? Is this kind of social division and rivalry among the poor not engineered by the Government? I am worried that this will lead to hatred and hostility, making things worse than ever. The whole CSSA review has become a dishonourable act by the Government, like throwing stones at someone trapped in a pit.

The "stone-throwing" matter which I am talking about is not the kind of repercussions that Mr LAU Chin-shek had in mind when he said that a rock would cause a thousand surging waves, rather, it is a devastating scenario of throwing a stone and hurting three groups of people. What are these three groups of victims? First, the CSSA recipients are hurt by that stone, because the stone breaks the CSSA safety net. There are bound to be some people who will say that the CSSA is pitched at too high a level and even people who work cannot get this amount of money. But the Government must not forget that the report on CSSA Scheme review of 1996 referred this level as the basic needs budget. The CSSA rates are just barely able to meet this budget. Now the Government refuses to talk about basic needs any more. Actually, these people from the low income bracket are in a very tight financial position. If they do not receive CSSA payments, they may not be able to meet their basic needs. All they can do is to cut all items of spending to the barest minimum and sustain a standard of living where their basic needs are barely met. For those who receive CSSA, they are barely able to support themselves. The present review does not mention the plight of the low-income group. It only proposes to cut CSSA payments and the CSSA recipients are turned into victims again. This review made by the Government violates the principle of basic needs spending and so we are opposed to it.

If the Government has one such plan in mind which can allow CSSA recipients to meet their basic needs spending despite a 10% or 20% reduction in CSSA payments, then please tell us. But it does not have such a plan and only produces a chart and says that the non-CSSA households can sustain the same standard of living. But these households manage to live under such a standard of living because they are compelled to bear with it. They are forced to do so because they have such a low income. They have not actually met their needs of living. They are the first group of victims.

The second group of people are worse off. Who gets hurt by the stone thrown by the Government? They are the people from the low-income group. If the condition imposed on the CSSA applicants is that they have to find a job, no one is going to blame the Government for that. I also think that this is something they should do. But if they are forced to do so on the condition that if they do not, their CSSA payments will be cut, then will be a crisis where the CSSA recipients are so eager to get a job that they are prepared to accept lower wages. This will pull the wages down. For example, someone who works as a cleaner in a restaurant can get $6,000 each month, but the boss gets a CSSA recipient and that person is willing to take $5,000. So the one who gets $6,000 is fired and the one who is willing to take $5,000 gets the job. The one who used to make $6,000 a month now receives CSSA. And then he is compelled by the Government to find a job, and prepared to get a job for $4,000 a month. Are wage levels not pulled down by this kind of competition? If those CSSA recipients are forced to accept lower wages, then wage levels will be pulled down and this will produce a spiral effect where wage levels are constantly dragged downwards. At the end of the day, all wage earners will suffer.

The third group of victims are the single-parent households. Miss Cyd HO will speak on this point later and I will not speak on that. I think the question is, when these three groups of people are victimized, what good will it bring to society as a whole? When wage levels are pulled down, the CSSA recipients will suffer, and so will the low-income group and what is even worse is that all the people in the low-income group will become victims. The Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions thinks that the Government should address the problem and devise means to solve the problems of unemployment and low income. It should not single out the CSSA Scheme and make these low income people the scapegoats. We hope that the Government can draw up some kind of poverty eradication policy which aims at addressing the following questions: first, prescribing a minimum wage level and to legislate for the right to collective bargaining so that the wage level of the low-income group will not become too low; second, setting up contributory unemployment insurance schemes so that the unemployed can get some sort of protection; third, stimulating the economy so as to create more jobs; fourth, implementing old age pension schemes as a means to eradicate poverty in society.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE, your time is up.

MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have so much to say on this topic of the review of the CSSA Scheme that even if I am given two hours to speak on it, I would not be able to finish my speech. But since I have got only seven minutes, I shall be as concise as possible. I have not made any arrangement with Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, but our opening remarks are similar. We all want to praise the Government first.

The Government has been very successful in its review of CSSA this time around. First, it has succeeded in making people believe that there are many people abusing the CSSA Scheme; second, it has succeeded in making people believe that CSSA will help to make people lazy; third, it has succeeded in making people believe that the abuse of CSSA and the lazy CSSA recipients are the causes of greatly increased spending in CSSA; fourth, through the publication of the report on the review of CSSA, and especially the pre-publication press conferences, it has made most of the newspaper editors arrive at the same understanding as mentioned above and they all agree that the Government should greatly reduce CSSA expenditure. Some newspapers even commented that the Government measures are not relentless and tough enough. Another thing that the Government deserves praise is that when it was conducting an opinion survey, despite the appearance of objectivity, the design of the questionnaire is very ingenious. Just now Dr YEUNG Sum has read out some of the questions and Mr LEE Cheuk-yan has also referred to some of these. Now I would like to read out the first two questions again. Although you have heard these just now, you will remember these well if you listen to them again, then you can learn a lesson from this.

The first question is, the recent sharp increase in CSSA expenditure from $2.4 billion five years ago to $13 billion this year ─ which is not yet approved by the Legislative Council pending the meeting to be held the day after tomorrow ─ would you agree that this is a worry to the public?

The second question is, would you agree to suspend the assistance for the unemployed CSSA recipients with working ability who refuse job offers or who do not find a job without acceptable reasons?

The above questions are very effective in guiding the interviewees in establishing a frame of reference which recognizes the sharp increase in CSSA expenditure and that the CSSA Scheme helps to make the recipients lazy. After establishing this frame of reference, the interviewee will use it to make his judgment when he is asked other questions in the questionnaire. Such a judgment is that the increase in CSSA expenditure has been sharp and that the CSSA Scheme makes people lazy. I believe what the findings of the survey published by the Government yesterday showed did not reflect public opinion, it only showed the effects of the negative publicity of the Government against the CSSA recipients. On this count, the Government has been extremely successful. I made an opinion survey in the welfare sector but I do not want to quote too many figures here. I will send the survey report to the Government later.

Apart from that, the Government has been very successful in packaging the survey. The report calls upon the CSSA recipients to "support for self-reliance". The Government has chosen a title for its report which no one will object to. It guides the public in that when they are asked to consider the Government's proposals, they should pay attention to the goodwill of the Government to help CSSA recipients to be self-reliant. But if we look carefully at the contents of the report, we will know that the Government has not made any specific proposals and only filled up most of the report by saying how should CSSA be cut. When the report was published, the reporters asked how much money was to be saved with this proposal, the Government said that no estimate was made in this respect. A few days later, it changed its reply and said that about $500 million to $600 million could be saved. I think everybody knows what in fact is in the mind of the Government and I think there is no need to argue on this ─ that is simply to reduce CSSA expenditure. I hope the Government can be frank in explaining this to the public that the most important objective of the review is to reduce CSSA expenditure and prevent it from increasing. I hope the Government will no longer wrap up its real objective.

The Government is most skillful in making use of statistics. For it has hired many statisticians. They often make use of average numbers. For example, a four-person household is said to receive more than $10,000 CSSA payments each month and so on. Such figures are often heard. Sometimes I would quote this example. Madam President, suppose you do not know how to swim, now a statistician says to you, " The river ahead has an average depth of 4 ft." Would you dare to wade across that river? The point is, there are many variables behind an average number. A river which has an average depth of 4 ft may be as deep as 10 ft at its deepest point. So make sure that you do not wade across that river and make sure that you do not take in the words of a statistician so easily. Those people who need our help are a minority and they are usually people who are particularly in need of help. So average numbers are meaningless to them, for such numbers often overlook the plight that these CSSA families have to face in real life and from an objective perspective. So I hope that the senior government officials will not just look at the average numbers. They should really talk to the single-parent CSSA recipients and their children so that they can really know the kind of life these people are leading and the difficulties they face in the course of their personal growth.

I also hope that the Government can consider this one question, that is, even if the Government succeeds in cutting CSSA expenditure now and saves about $500 million to $600 million for its coffers, may I ask the Government how much it is going to save for next year? Two days from now the Finance Committee may approve of a $13.1 billion budget. The budget for next year is likely to stand at more than $15 billion. The Government is well aware of the fact that most of the CSSA recipients are old people and such cases increase by more than 20 000 each year. The mandatory private provident funds will not produce any substantial effect in the next 20 years, and that means in the long run, the funds will be of no help to the low-income or unemployed people. Therefore, the Government should reconsider old age pension so as to ease the pressure on the CSSA Scheme in this respect.

In the whole course of the review, the Government thinks that reducing CSSA expenditure will solve all the problems. Therefore, it asks why so many unemployed people are applying for CSSA. We all know that the labour market is presently in a state of serious imbalance. There are too many poorly educated and low-skill people who are finding it harder and harder to find a suitable job. And the number of these people is increasing all the time. Their wages are getting lower and lower. If this problem is not resolved, I bet wages will only get lower and lower, and there will be more and more people applying for CSSA because they are unemployed. I consider the Government putting the cart before the horse when it seeks to reduce CSSA expenditure without trying to resolve the problem at its roots.

I hope everyone can air their views on this review and that the Government can really lend us its ears. I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I support today's motion and amendment. But as for the original motion, I can only give my reluctant support, for I did not agree to the spirit behind the original motion. I would like to offer my apologies here to Honourable Members for not being able to propose an amendment to the motion on certain areas which I find unsatisfactory as I was aware of the contents of the motion only after the deadline for proposing an amendment had lapsed.

Madam President, if the motion could be amended, I would propose a simple amendment to it, and that is, to delete the words "three-person households" of the first measure in the original motion and replace them by "to withdraw the proposal for reducing the CSSA standard rates". Though this is a very minor change in the wording, there is a huge difference between the original and the amended versions in terms of the principles behind them.

What is the problem with the original motion? The problem is that it only objects to the reduction of CSSA standard rates for three-person households. This implies that it in fact agrees to the reduction of CSSA standard rates for households with different sizes. Although the mover of the motion has made an explanation just now, I think that it is a very important issue for the wording implies such an understanding and points to a major issue which involves cardinal principles of right and wrong. The motion gives one the impression of objection, but if one reads between the lines, one will sense that it agrees with the Government's policy of reducing CSSA standard rates. Therefore, although the motion says that this Council "is disappointed" to see the Government seeks to "tighten the Scheme", it is only trying to sell some other thing that it purports to. It is led by the Government's way of thinking and its mild rebuke becomes a major help to the Government.

Therefore, I think we should not spend too much time on discussing the details of the CSSA review. On the contrary, we should discuss whether there are any changes in the principle of our social security policy which these proposals embrace. The change is that under the pretext of a huge expenditure, the Government is abandoning its responsibility of taking care of the poor and underprivileged in society.

In this review of the CSSA Scheme, the Government has whitewashed the setting of CSSA standard rates as meeting the individual needs of the recipients instead of meeting their basic needs. But if we take a look at the items being cut, how many of them are not those which meet the individual and basic needs of the recipients? So, any reduction is in fact an evasion of responsibility on the part of the Government.

In its attempt to evade responsibility, the Government has intentionally classified all CSSA cases into two major groups. The Government does not dare to revise any benefits received by the elderly, the disabled and those in ill-health, for this will not be approved of by the public. So it remains for the unemployed and low income groups to become the targeted victims. The Government states that the CSSA payments are often higher than the income of low-skill jobs. But are CSSA payments too high or wages too low? Has the Government made any review of this? According to information from the Census and Statistics Department, in the first quarter of last year, there were 218 000 people whose wage was under $4,000. Suppose in a four-person household, the two adults can only find a job which pays under $4,000. When expenses of food, transport, and other expenses are deducted, can their income cover the essential household expenditure? Should they go out to work, or should they rather apply for CSSA?

From another perspective, if the Government is willing to set up a minimum wage system, or to take up the proposal made by the public and set the minimum wage at $5,832, then, if two adults in a household are working, they can get $11,664 which is somewhat more than the CSSA standard rate of $11,280 for a four-person household before the proposed reduction. As the people of Hong Kong generally value the self-respect that goes with self-reliance, it is believed that most of them are prepared to work rather than to receive CSSA payments.

Recently, some people said that we should not aim at stirring up class hatred in Hong Kong. But I think that the Government is precisely making use of this review of CSSA to create class confrontation. It divides the people of Hong Kong into those who receive CSSA and those who do not. It is making use of every possible means to create the right circumstances and guide the latter into discriminating against the former, producing such undesirable scenes as the poor fighting against the poor and the poor trampling on the poor. Of course, in the 200 000-plus cases of CSSA, there are bound to be cases of abuse. But are most of the CSSA recipients not willing to find jobs and do they prefer to live on CSSA? Or is it because there are insufficient job opportunities around for these people? Or have their cases not been followed up? Now that there is massive unemployment and there are lots of poorly paid workers. Such are the results of the Government's poor handling of these issues in the past, and its indifference to the appearance of the bubble economy and the widening gap between the rich and the poor. And so many workers receive meagre wages and even lost their jobs. The Government did not deal with this problem squarely in the past, especially at the time when many factories moved northwards in the 1980s. Many workers in the manufacturing industries lost their jobs when the economy slackened. The Government has owed these people and now it is trying to evade its responsibility. Is this fair? The Government is really heartless!

To get to the root of the problem and to solve this problem of increased expenditure in CSSA payments, apart from improving on the employment situation, creating more jobs and raising the wages, there should also be a sound retirement protection scheme and each case of unemployed CSSA recipients should be followed up closely. They should receive assistance in placement or in upgrading their skills so that they will no longer be discriminated against or compelled to receive CSSA as they are now.

Madam President, I so submit.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the increase or reduction of CSSA expenditure and its allocation are a dilemma for the Government. On the one hand, it must reduce taxes and increase expenditure, so as to propel a speedy recovery of the economy and to cope with the problem of the swelling unemployed ranks and to meet the heavy demand for social services. On the other hand, it has to bear an unprecedented huge deficit against reduced tax revenue. The Government has also to prevent itself from going deeper into the reds in order that the stability of the Hong Kong dollar and the financial market will not be threatened and that the business sector's costs of borrowing from outside will not be increased.

The CSSA is also a dilemma to the public. On one hand the people of Hong Kong want to be self-reliant and they regard it a loss of face to rely on public assistance. But on the other hand, it is really hard to get by under the present economic recession. In general, those low-income people who are relatively older, whose academic qualifications are lower and whose jobs are less secure, are not only vulnerable to layoffs, but they also find it hard to find jobs after they are unemployed. They come to rely on the CSSA for a living, though reluctant they may be. Gradually, their incentive to work is inevitably eroded and this will produce a vicious circle.

Therefore, the key issue in the review of CSSA is how to raise the cost-effectiveness of the CSSA to the Government and the public so that CSSA will transform from a very passive means of assistance to something which encourages the unemployed people and sparks off a ray of hope in their lives. This should be the focus of the CSSA review. Unfortunately, the Government's review of the CSSA only aims at reducing its own financial burden and setting up barriers so that the unemployed and jobless people are urged not to rely on the CSSA. But there is no strenuous effort made in helping the CSSA recipients to re-enter the job market and to be self-reliant.

The Government is prescribing all sorts of requirements such as single parent supplement is only paid out to those whose children are below 12 years of age. The Government has been dodging the demands of the social service sector in providing child care services for those working CSSA recipients. Another example is that the Government requires the unemployed people from one- or two-person households to work as volunteers. This arrangement incurs additional administrative costs but does not serve to enhance the employment skills of the unemployed . On the contrary, it builds in an assumption that the unemployed CSSA recipients are not willing to work, making them feel that doing voluntary work is a form of punishment. I am not entirely against the idea of asking the unemployed CSSA recipients to do voluntary work, but there are more cons than pros to it. The Government's failure to set any time limit on unemployment CSSA is a rash act on its part, I am afraid it will only serve to undermine the desire of the unemployed to find jobs.

The biggest inadequacy of the CSSA review is that it is only confined to amending the mechanisms of the CSSA Scheme, without attempting to improve the Scheme and its matching features in order to bring into full play the more positive effects of the Scheme's implementation. The Government has failed to offer enough policies and rationale to convince people that it can really create job opportunities for the unemployed and jobless CSSA recipients, and transform them into a driving force for the economy, and ultimately a working force which can bring in greater tax revenue. There are, on the other hand, certain government policies which go in the opposite direction. An obvious example is the Government's insistence on imposing on the business sector a landfill levy. It refuses to make any commitment to reducing the operation costs of the recycling industry in terms of government rent, utilities, tax and recovery deposit. Consequently, as many as some 10 000 workers in the recycling industry and those low-income people who want to be self-reliant by scavenging discarded things on the streets are on the verge of unemployment. They are compelled to apply for CSSA. Such a policy is too rigid and lacks foresight. In the end, the Government will have to bear the burden of increased expenditure in CSSA out of its own making. The Government should bring in some self-reliance schemes and match these with certain labour-intensive industries such as the waste recovery/recycling industry.

Apart from that, there has always been a great demand for domestic helpers. May I suggest that all households which employ CSSA recipients as domestic helpers be given a tax reduction on the related wage expenses. At the same time, the Government should step up its efforts in cracking down on illegal workers, including those overstaying foreign domestic helpers, in a bid to safeguard the employment opportunities of the local people. On the other hand, encouragement should be given to single-parent CSSA recipients to work. This can be done in the form of child care services. In addition, the experience of countries like Britain, the United States, Canada and New Zealand can be considered in the setting up of child care boards to protect the rights of single parents and provide assistance in collecting alimonies. In so doing, CSSA expenditure can be substantially and effectively reduced.

The above points cannot be accomplished by the efforts of the Social Welfare Department alone. The co-operation of many departments in policy-making and implementation has to be sought. The above points alone will involve efforts from the Security Bureau, the Education and Manpower Bureau, the Economic Services Bureau, the Trade and Industry Bureau and the Environmental Protection Department. Although there are some so-called inter-departmental ad hoc committees, their members come from a very limited number of policy areas. I made an appeal publicly some time ago in which I urged the Government to set up a high-level department specifically charged with the duty to make a thorough study on the effective co-ordination of all government policies. The Government agreed that such a need did exist. But sad to say, no concrete actions have been done to date.

Madam President, I so submit.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I rise to speak on behalf of the Democratic Party on the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam to Dr YEUNG Sum's motion, which is the proposal to urge the Government "to implement a 're-employment support scheme', so as to separately deal with two services, namely unemployment assistance and social security".

Madam President, as we all know, the economic situation has deteriorated sharply over the past year while the financial turmoil has caused the unemployment rate to soar tremendously; besides, many employees who had toiled with their brains and their brawn for their respective companies were laid off by their merciless employers, in particular those employers who are still making profits. For instance, despite the more than $1.28 billion profits it had made in the first six months of 1998, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation still laid off 80 employees yesterday. In the face of unemployment, these people will naturally be helpless and anxiety-ridden; besides, they are also required to face the waves of public opinion that "Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) nutures lazy bones" wheeled by the Government. Such public opinions have but served to give the unemployed feelings of despair.

I wish to speak particularly on the public opinion survey to which referred by many Honourable Members just now. According to a finding of the survey, over 90% of the interviewees believe that people who have the ability to work but have not sought actively to secure a job should cease to be provided with CSSA. Madam President, if we travel all over the world, including countries like Australia and New Zealand which grant unemployment assistance to their people, and countries which offer unceasing support to their unemployed, and ask the people there the same question, I believe they will all give us this answer: How could those who have not sought actively to secure a job continue to receive CSSA? However, the Government does not dare to raise the following question: Suppose someone who has the ability to work but has failed to secure a job despite the many efforts made, should he be allowed to continue to receive CSSA? I really want to know what answer will people give to this question.

Therefore, I find the Government's proposal to tighten the CSSA Scheme an act to add calamities to the misfortuned, bearing in mind that the unemployment rate has reached 5.5% and over 190 000 people are currently unemployed.

I consider the motion debate today a discussion about the unemployment assistance scheme. In regard to the "re-employment support scheme" proposed by the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) to separately deal with unemployment assistance and social security, the Democratic Party is in support of the latter part of the proposal, which is to separately deal with unemployment assistance and social security. In view of the current economic situation, we really should not neglect the needs of the unemployed. As regards the "re-employment support scheme" proposed by the DAB, the Democratic Party does have some worries if certain issues of principle remain unresolved. The crux of the matter lies in the proposed "unemployment assistance". In this connection, the DAB has referred to the eligibility for unemployment assistance and suggested that: Any person who has worked for at least a year and has total disposable assets of not more than $120,000, if became unemployed, should be eligible for payment of assistance at 50% of the median wage, which is around $5,000 a month.

As indicated by the figures of the Census and Statistics Department, the number of CSSA recipients amounted to 28 000 by October 1998. If these 28 000 people come out and apply for the proposed unemployment assistance and receive a monthly payment of $5,000, the total pay-out would amount to $840 million in six months and $1.7 billion in a year. What is more, the DAB has also proposed to waive the household means test and assess the applications in the light of the applicants' personal assets; should that be the case, the number of assistance recipients would increase sharply from 28 000 to some 40 000 to 50 000. Suppose there are 40 000 recipients, then the annual sum of public funds required by this scheme would amount to some $4 billion or $5 billion. Unemployment is not a short-term problem, where could the Government secure the necessary resources to cover unemployment assistance payments in the long run, from taxation or other sources of revenue? It is for this reason that the Democratic Party has all along been urging the Government to actively investigate how the scheme of unemployment assistance could be made to function like an insurance scheme. I believe it should be more practical for the Government to study the feasibility of an unemployment insurance scheme with the same spirit, resources and public consultation exercise like it has conducted the CSSA review. According to the findings of a simple study conducted by us, among the 28 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, 26 have already established centralized unemployment insurance schemes. Why then, despite our continuous request for a study on the establishment of a similar scheme, the Government has kept on insisting that unemployment insurance is a mechanism too enormous for Hong Kong to implement? We have been urging the Government to conduct such a study only, and yet instead of actively studying the matter, the Government has conducted a so-called review of the CSSA Scheme and played up some public opinions to mislead the people.

As regards proposals that the Government could consider, I should like to raise a few points for the reference of the Secretary and the Government. I think the first question the Government should ask itself is: How much money is required to set up an unemployment insurance fund; and of this sum, what should the appropriate percentage of public funds be? Second, should it be mandatory for each and every person or worker to join the unemployment insurance scheme; and how could the scheme be co-ordinated with the existing Mandatory Provident Fund schemes to form new contributory schemes? Third, how many percent of a worker's wages should be contributed to the fund; should there be any cap; and what is the minimum qualifying contribution time for payment of unemployment assistance? Fourth, should the rates of assistance be linked to the median wage; or should that be calculated in the light of the last wages of the relevant unemployed applicant?

Recently, the Democratic Party has conducted a survey on the establishment of an unemployment insurance fund by contributions from both the employers and the employees. Among the interviewees, 59.9% supported the idea while 28.9% have indicated otherwise. In view of this result, I think the Government should really show its resolve and investigate the feasibility of an unemployment insurance scheme.

Thank you, Madam President.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, as an advanced and civilized society, Hong Kong should provide basic care and support for members of the community who are aged, weak, disabled, or who have short-term livelihood problems. On the other hand, we should also establish a complete mechanism to ensure that the social welfare resources will not be abused or misused; otherwise, we will be treating the taxpayers unfairly on the one hand and encouraging the people to idle about and do no decent job, and thereby undermining the traditional spirit of Hong Kong which emphasizes self-reliance and vigorous efforts for betterment.

The Liberal Party is in support of the Government's review of the CSSA Scheme as well as its proposal to tighten certain types of CSSA grants; not that we consider the number of unemployed persons receiving CSSA soaring sharply and needs to be halted by every means, nor that we favour the Government's proposal which could save $600 million a year. We lend the Government our support on the ground that the existing CSSA level of grant is unreasonable. On the one hand, the rate is way above the cost of living of the community at large; on the other, the Scheme has not taken into account the factor of economy of scale and thus enabling families with more members to receive unreasonably greater amount of CSSA payment.

Let me illustrate with examples. At present, the CSSA payment for a family of three is $8,950 on average, representing a surplus of $930 compared to the $8,020 average monthly expenditure of the 25% lowest income non-CSSA recipient families; and for a family of four, the CSSA payment is $11,280 per month, which is $1,600 higher than the $9,680 expenditure of an average family. As for a family of five, the monthly CSSA payment even amounts to $13,310, representing a surplus of $3,030 compared to the $10,290 expenditure of an average family.

One major reason why the rates of CSSA payment have been set at too high a level is that the Government has all along over-estimated the annual rate of inflation since 1992 and hence incurred an extra expenditure of $826 million over the past six years as indicated by some government statistics. Another reason is that the local cost of living index has fallen substantially in the wake of the economic recession over the past year. compared to the corresponding figures in 1997, the Composite Consumer Price Index of November 1998 has dropped 0.4% in terms of food prices (excluding the cost of eating out), 10.2% in prices for clothing; 0.4% in prices for durable goods, as well as 2.2% in the cost of accommodation.

In view of the fact that the existing rates of CSSA payment have been pushed to an unreasonably high level due to the long standing over-estimation of the rate of inflation, and that the local cost of living has also dropped substantially, it is necessary for us to adjust the rates of CSSA payment and set them at a reasonable level. We must not forget that the purpose of the CSSA Scheme is to provide the needy with the basic necessities for living, and hence the rates of CSSA payment should be set in the light of the general cost of living of the community at large; should the rates of CSSA payment be higher than the cost of living, not only will public funds be wasted, the original purpose of the CSSA Scheme would also be defeated since the recipients might very easily be tempted to rely long term on CSSA. For this reason, the Liberal Party supports the Government's proposal to readjust the rates for non-broken families with working ability and comprising three or more members. However, if the cost of living bounced up again, the Government should review the rates promptly.

As regards the "re-employment support scheme" proposed by the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) to separately deal with unemployment assistance and social security, I am afraid the Liberal Party could not agree less. According to the explanation given by Mr CHAN Kam-lam just now, the "re-employment support scheme" is to provide the unemployed a monthly assistance amounting to about half of the median wage ($5,000) for up to six months. The Liberal Party believes that the high unemployment rate in principle will not become a long-term problem for Hong Kong, hence there is no need to create any additional mechanisms to offer assistance to the unemployed persons.

Moreover, the scheme proposed by the DAB has also changed the fundamental philosophy of the existing CSSA Scheme, since the median income would be used as the basis for calculating rates of assistance payment. Yet we should like to stress that assistance payment of any types should be made to the needy as a short-term livelihood protection, and for this reason the basis for calculation should be the living expenses instead of the wage level of the community at large.

On the other hand, we also support the Government's proposal to require the unemployed CSSA recipients to undertake community work. We are of the opinion that the unemployed persons have to face not only livelihood difficulties but also challenges to their self-confidence as well as social rejection. To enable the unemployed persons to take part in voluntary community work or non-pay work while they are awaiting an employment could serve to keep up their incentive to secure a job, bolster their self-esteem, as well as to maintain connection and links with the community. All kinds of work are noble, hence there should not be any problem in connection with the types of non-pay work the unemployed persons are required to undertake as they should all be respected by the community. Nevertheless, I hope that the Government could exercise more flexibility in implementing this measure and provide the CSSA recipients with information of social service organizations looking for voluntary workers so as to enable them to choose relevant non-pay work of their preference; the Government should only make compulsory non-pay work arrangement for those CSSA recipients who refuse to take up voluntary work.

However, the Liberal Party has some reservations regarding the proposal to require single parents to join the working population once their children have reached 12 years of age, as we consider the independent self-care abilities of a third former distinct markedly from that of a primary school graduate. Moreover, the existing youth services are not sufficient to take good care of 12 year-olds after their single parents have gone off to work. The Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW has more to say about this later. I hope that the Government could give more serious considerations to this proposal before making any further move.

With these remarks, Madam President, I oppose on behalf of the Liberal Party the original motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum and the amendment by Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, the people of Hong Kong have all along been very sympathetic to the underprivileged of the community; besides, they are also very enthusiastic in promoting the common good. The review of the CSSA Scheme has polarized opinion in the community. Despite the view held by certain Honourable Members that the review is a successful exercise capable of achieving the objectives set, I find it distressing to see a very good tradition being blemished and the most unfortunate to have mixed feelings swelling up in their hearts. The Government should indeed be held responsible to a certain extent for the fact that the existing CSSA system calls for review. Firstly, the Government has over the past years been too optimistic about the future economic situation; secondly, the CSSA system is lacking in flexibility. These are some of the reasons why members of the public are not pleased with the existing CSSA Scheme.

Generally speaking, I agree that the CSSA system requires a review. The Government was very optimistic in making its economic forecast last year and expected the rate of inflation to soar; as such, it has substantially increased the rates of CSSA payment. Instead of dealing with inflation, people have now found themselves in the midst of deflation; yet at same time no body has expected the economic downturn would deteriorate at such a fast pace, nor has anyone expected the wage level to drop so abruptly. Added together, the various factors have rendered the increase in CSSA rates too generous by today's standard; indeed, there have even been cases in which the level of CSSA payable to families of larger size is higher than the wage level which has currently been adjusted downwards.

Nevertheless, is it the fault of the CSSA recipients? Are the CSSA recipients being greedy? Throughout the entire report on the review of the CSSA Scheme, there is no evidence showing that CSSA recipients have been abusing the system; besides, the report has been prepared on the basis of government figures. That being the case, the allegation that the review of the CSSA Scheme is necessitated by the existence of greedy recipients and cases of CSSA abuse is in fact groundless, unfounded and lacking in evidence. For those people caught in financial difficulties, both the Government and this Council should show more understanding and sympathy for them instead of encouraging social prejudice to develop, since it would polarize the community and thereby deal a further blow to the unfortunate. I am really very much disappointed by the Government's failure to take into account such factors in implementing its policies.

In view of the fact that businesses in Hong Kong have been undergoing painful readjustments after the regional financial turmoil, we are all indeed prepared to face even harder days. For this reason, it should not be that unacceptable to readjust the rates of CSSA payment at this point of time. In this connection, although the CSSA standard rates for four-person and five-person households may perhaps have room for adjustment, the difference between that for three-person households and the actual income levels concerned is indeed very insignificant; as such, if the Government really wishes to readjust the rates, the adjustment should by no means be too large in extent. I hope that the Government would seek to avoid making any adjustment at all, or at least keep the level of adjustment as small as possible.

The review of the CSSA Scheme has also alerted the people of Hong Kong to the fact that the Government is incapable of creating any wealth. The existing handsome financial reserves are the fruits collected painstakingly by the community as a whole over the past decades, and the majority of the reserves are made up of the direct and indirect tax levied on the people. With a tax base as narrow as the one we have in Hong Kong and the plunge of revenue from land sales, any government would find it hard to sustain an expenditure item like CSSA which "generates no return". This is exactly the rationale and background behind the Government's attempt to tighten expenditure.

If only the Government has reflected the truth to the public frankly and adopted reasonable measures to adjust the rates, I believe members of the public will accept and understand the situation readily and hence no confrontation will be resulted. On the other hand, if the Government sought to implement the policies and handle criticisms from the public by using some beautiful slogans, alarming data, as well as leading surveys, it will only achieve the contrary results and make the matters further complicated. However high-sounding the term "support for self-reliance" may be, it lies beyond both the ambit of the Social Welfare Department (SWD) and the crux of the CSSA issue. The purpose of CSSA is to provide the needy with the assistance to pay for the necessary costs of living, hence the CSSA system must be fair and reasonable. As regards the "support for self-reliance" for recipients, it is an issue of another field. To require the SWD to indefinitely extend the scope of both this debate and the review to fields with which SWD staff are not familiar would serve to cause enormous difficulties to the public officers concerned. The duty of the public officers under the SWD should be to protect their clients ─ the CSSA recipients, yet they are now required to disparage those people. So, there is indeed an obvious shortcoming in the policy itself.

To those people who have the ability to work, the review of the CSSA Scheme is but a transitional issue. However, the debate today has confused the various categories of unemployed persons with the CSSA recipients and even the single-parent families, thus complicating the matter further; indeed, both the media and the academia have referred to the situation as "pitching the poor against the poor". While the Government may have achieved its policy objectives, the way in which the policy has been implemented is in fact a public relations disaster in which the confusion created is so serious that no rectifications could be made. In the end, a small group of innocent CSSA recipients are being victimized and their pride damaged.

In regard to voluntary work, we could see that the ambit of the SWD is indeed very limited. Despite the "self-reliance" programmes introduced by the Department, nothing significant has been achieved so far; besides, most of the proposals put forward are not practical at all. In requiring tens of thousand people to take part in such kind of work together within a short notice, the Government has simply neglected the needs of the persons concerned.

I suggest the Government stop targeting at single parent families. The issue regarding the age of 12 or the age of 15 is just a matter of negligible significance and neither of the choices would be supported by the community. It is obvious that the Government has not think over the proposals carefully before putting them forward; in this connection, the public opinions have made it clear that the Government is urged not to force those proposals on the people.

As regards the proposal to require other people with the ability to work to rejoin the working population, I hope that the Government would consider exempting from such requirement those people who could provide reasonable grounds such as poor health, being engaged in part-time jobs and so on; and that the purpose of the measures concerned is to help those who have failed to secure a job over a long period of time to keep up their ability to work. I think it is time for the Government to stop being so stubborn and abandon its plan to implement the proposed measures which aim at saving a few hundred million dollars. And most importantly, instead of targeting at a small group of CSSA recipients with its so-called "support for self-reliance" proposals, the Government should practically establish a security protection system which is both acceptable to and affordable by the community.

With these remarks, I support the motion.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I rise to speak in support of the motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum and the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam to the motion. Madam President, the recent financial turmoil has dealt a heavy blow to many people in Hong Kong and caused many to sustain a sharp drop in household income. As mentioned by Honourable Members who spoke just now, among those who manage to keep their jobs, some are making do with a meagre household income which compares unfavourably with that of certain CSSA recipients. For this reason, the recent proposal put forward by the Government in this connection would be echoed by members of the community.

My political opinions differ from those of the Honourable Eric LI, but both of us are members of the Public Accounts Committee; nevertheless, I agree very much to the points he raised just now. Perhaps Mr Eric LI would also recall that many years ago when we were members of the then Public Accounts Committee, a report submitted by the Director of Audit has proposed to compel single parents to join the working population so as to cut back on public expenditure. We were all opposed to the proposal because we believed that it was unreasonable to do so, and that Hong Kong was then still a very affluent society. I hope the Secretary for Health and Welfare (she was also the Secretary then) could also recall that we were opposed to such a proposal.

Madam President, many colleagues have spoken on the issue today and I do not wish to repeat any of their points made, so I should like to supplement one point only. It was mentioned just now that certain CSSA recipients have employed dishonest means to secure more CSSA payments; if that is the case, members of the public will undoubtedly have antipathy against CSSA recipients who employ dishonest means. I am sure the Secretary is aware that I am deeply concerned with public funds and that I hate people who abuse public funds very much. I do not think I am a miser, but I do keep a close watch on public funds or the taxpayers' money. Nevertheless, when we examine the data provided by the Government, we could not but query the Government whether the number of fraud cases was really that high. In the financial year 1997-98, a total of more than 195 000 similar cases have been recorded, among them 57 were substantiated to be fraud cases. How much has been spent on CSSA payments then? It is a total of $9.4 billion, of which a total of $1.4 million has been proved to be the excess amount paid to recipients employing dishonest means. Could we not be surprised by these figures? Madam President, the amount of money involved is so very small, how could the Government have exaggerated the situation and claimed that many people are employing dishonest means to get CSSA! I believe it is certainly the Government's responsibility to disclose that such fraud cases do exist; however, I also believe that such cases may be attributable to the inefficiency of certain government officials. Should the Government decide to uncover those who are not qualified for CSSA, I will certainly lend it my support, and so will the Frontier. Yet the Government should never confuse the fraud cases with the CSSA cases to mislead the public into believing that many people are employing dishonest means to abuse the CSSA Scheme. The ratio of fraud cases to all CSSA cases is as trivial as one to ten thousand, but the government officials have exaggerated the situation so much that many members of the public really believe in what has been claimed. Madam President, if you listen to the phone-in radio programmes you would know that many people do believe that the situation is really what the Government has claimed it to be. I consider this is very unfair to the CSSA recipients. For this reason, I hope that the Secretary could respond in this respect, since the data were not provided by us but by her; I also hope that she could in her response later inform this Council of the measures she has taken to prevent people from abusing the CSSA Scheme. We will certainly lend her our support in this connection.

However, should the relevant measures be implemented hastily at the present time when people are in panic? I agree with many colleagues in that we would lend our support to the Government's review of the CSSA Scheme. For instance, should there be an opinion that the $11,000 is too high a level of CSSA rate for a four-person household, we should then adopt some scientific and objective standards to find out the general cost of living for a family of four. Of course the Government should not use the cost of living of the poverty-stricken or the lowest income group households as its reference point, since that would be very unfair. Madam President, I believe the people of Hong Kong, irrespective of whether they are rich or poor, are in general very fair and reasonable. If the Government could furnish them with objective data instead of hastily rushing through the matter in a couple of weeks' time, if it would inform the public of the actual situation, and that the cost of living has dropped and hence should the rates of CSSA, I think a consensus could be reached then. I agree with Mr Eric LI that the people of Hong Kong should be able to understand this. As regards the existing approach adopted by the Government, notwithstanding the support from certain Members today, it would not be widely supported. The Government should take a look at the directly-elected Members (I hope that Mr Eric LI would take part in direct elections in the future) and see how many of us would really lend it our support; I really very much hope that the Government could see this point clearly.

On the other hand, Madam President, I should also like to point out further that despite the current economic recession, the Secretary for Home Affairs announced yesterday that the Government had planned to construct a $9.8 million large scale exhibition gallery in Kunming, Yunnan because Hong Kong would join the 1999 International Garden and Greenery Exposition to be held in the Mainland from May to October this year. According to Mr LAN, the Secretary for Home Affairs, in an extensive scale function like this one, Hong Kong should not present itself shabbily but be decently presentable in front of others; while expenses should be cut back in the face of the present economic situation, it is still worth spending $9.8 million to construct such a garden considering that the flag of Hong Kong would be hoisted in front of the whole world to give publicity to the territory. I am sure you, Madam President, are also aware of the fact that this sum of $9.8 million is only $200,000 short of the minimum amount of provision that approval of this Council is required. What a coincidence! I believe others would also understand that if the proposal were submitted to this Council, the provision might not be approved of by Members. Should anybody consider this Council not being patriotic on grounds of our disapproval of the proposal, such kind of view is nothing but sheer nonsense. Madam President, a retired senior government official gave me a call this morning (he had never called me before). This retired senior government official called to say that the whole matter was utterly unacceptable, and that policies should be made taking account of priorities. He said that it would be acceptable to him if the Government was to spend several hundred thousand dollars on this Exposition; however, what the Government's attempt to spend an enormous sum on this matter was no different from an attempt to "rob the poor", bearing in mind the existing situation in which some people were earning only several thousand dollars a month. I am sure this has nothing to do with the Secretary, since the whole matter is the duty of the Home Affairs Bureau. Nevertheless, why could the Government easily spend more than $9 million on this matter on the one hand, but seek to recover such a small amount of money from its people on the other?

Finally, Madam President, I raised a question on last year's government expenditure regarding payments of acting allowance and the answer was $0.69 billion. I wonder if the Secretary for Health and Welfare could tell us of the amount of public expenditure that would be saved by tightening the CSSA rates. I think the sum in this connection should be $0.55 billion. In other words, cutting back on the payment of acting allowance for a year could spare enough resources to help the poor. Madam President, I simply hope that the various Bureau Secretaries can have second thoughts about the whole matter. Thank you, Madam President.

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG, took the Chair.

MR KENNETH TING (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I shall be very brief. Both the Liberal Party and the Federation of Hong Kong Industries agree that people who do not have the ability to work should be provided with sufficient and appropriate support; however, we could not agree that the income of people without a job can be higher than that of people who have to work. For this reason, we could not support the motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum or the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

MISS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, before speaking on the issue of single-parent families, I should like to respond to the brief remarks made by the Honourable Kenneth TING just now. As mentioned by the Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan earlier, the most serious point of contention with the current review of the CSSA Scheme must be the continuous suppression of wage levels and the resultant situation in which a certain sector of the community has to live on CSSA. I simply could not understand why Honourable Members of this Council would speak so much on the review of the CSSA Scheme but remain silent about the fact that the wage rates have fallen continuously to a level insufficient to cover the general cost of living.

With regard to single-parent families, the report on the review has proposed to require single-parents to seek full-time employment when their youngest child reaches the age of 12. The argument put forward by the Government is that under the existing systems in other countries (for example, Alberta in Canada, which is the most extreme case), parents are required to rejoin the working population once their children reach 18 months old. Compared to this requirement, the Hong Kong requirement is indeed too lenient, and it is still very lenient of the Government to adjust the age requirement from 15 years to 12 years. In pointing out the policies in other countries which require parents to rejoin the working population when their children reach a certain age, the Government has made no mention of such support services as child care and so on provided in other countries; and it is in this respect that Hong Kong needs to fight hard to catch up with countries.

The child care services in Hong Kong are available on a nine-to-six basis, yet the working hours of most parents are also from nine to six. In fact, this Council has already put forward relevant questions to government officials on this issue before. In distributing campaign material during the election period, I am sure many Members returned by direct elections should have noticed the phenomenon that streets in new towns would become empty after 7.15 am. People usually have to leave for work at seven in the morning and come off duty by six in the evening, and then reach home at around eight after visiting the market for foodstuff. So who is going to look after the children during the two-hour period between seven and nine in the morning and that from six to eight in the evening? Should the Government improve the child care services before requiring the parents to rejoin the working population, or should it make the parents go to work first and then improve the child care services gradually later? Of course, some children over the age of 12 would be attending whole-day secondary schools and will finish class only after four in the afternoon. According to the Government, extracurricular activities or even tutorial groups could be arranged in certain secondary schools. It would be nice if things really work out that way, but how many secondary schools could really afford to do so? Let us come back to the question I raised just now. Is it the Government's intention to compel the parent to go to work before any appropriate guidance and care services could be provided for their children?

As a matter of fact, 12-year-olds staying at home alone should be able to take care of themselves. They will put more clothes on if they feel cold; besides, they will not electrocute or injure themselves, nor will they fall from a building by accident. However, the age of 12 is the sensitive age of puberty at which one turns from a primary school child to a secondary school student. I do not think single parents with very limited education could have the full ability required to take good care of their children at puberty, yet they could at least be around and keep an eye on their children to watch out for any abnormal changes and seek assistance promptly. Their role in this respect is particularly important at the present time because the school social worker issue or the "one school, one social worker" issue has yet to be fully resolved while the number of educational psychologists offering psychological guidance to children amounts to 22 only. In view of the acute manpower shortage, if the Government still deprives parents of their child care time by compelling them to go to work, should youth problems arise in the future, I am sure the loss incurred by the Government later will outweigh the gains made, since more resources would be required to resolve the problems then.

On the other hand, although the Government has indicated its resolve to put more emphasis on education by setting up a $5 billion Quality Education Fund, it has overlooked the importance of family education. That being the case, would the following situation be resulted eventually: While children coming from better-off families could grow up in a better environment, children from poorer families, being deprived of proper parental care, could not enjoy the same but will become less competitive than others when they grow up; hence, the poor will remain poor generation after generation?

Actually many single parents really would like to undertake voluntary work. From the perspective of psychological therapy, voluntary work is good for the single parents as well. I know many single parents would always take their children along when they take part in voluntary work. Indeed, it would be so tormenting if an adult, in particular someone who has recently been dealt a severe blow, has to face around the clock a small child asking for care and fulfilment of wants. In fact, single parents also need to come out of their families and find some adult friends to talk with; hence many of them would voluntarily rejoin the community even without government coercion. In addition to doing voluntary work, they would of course wish to secure a paid job which could release them from poverty. In regard to the single parents in Hong Kong, about 70% are women between the age of 30 and 50; however, most of them have only been educated to Primary 2 to Primary 3 level because their education needs were neglected due to the older generations' preference of boys to girls. Apart from domestic helpers, many of the single mothers could not even take up jobs such as office assistants. Many single mothers have confided to me that they very much hope the Government could provide more adult education services so that they could complete basic education. They are in fact very eager to join the working population.

Another type of support services which has yet to be provided by the Government is the establishment of the council of child support, this point has also been mentioned by many Members just now. As a matter of fact, if they could get back their alimony successfully, many single mothers will have no need for CSSA. The one-year trial run of the Council of Child Support will expire by March this year, I hope that the Government will review the Council of Child Support and give consideration to establishing a Council of Child Support with a view to discontinuing the payment of CSSA to relevant recipients and then announcing the complicated but not success-guaranteed alimony recovery procedure by court order. In fact, if the Government could provide support services in other areas, many households could then release themselves from the CSSA safety net.

Finally, I should like to point out that I support very much the Government's review of the CSSA Scheme. I particularly hope that the Government could implement the relevant measure in a practical manner and in line with the spirit of the International Convention on the Rights of the Child, according to which any person under the age of 18 will be considered a child. However, in the report on the review conducted by the Government, any person above the age of 15 could register at the Labour Department for job-seeking purposes. I hope that the Government could, in conducting the review, take into consideration of the proper growth and development of the child with a view to enabling the child to develop into an adult with healthy character, thereby preventing our community from being polarized further. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the basic stance of the Liberal Party on social welfare is that "people who are unable to take care of themselves should all be provided with assistance to cover the basic cost of living." We agree that it should be the responsibility of society to take care of the aged, the weak, the disabled, as well as those who have short-term livelihood problems. However, we must at the same time strive to ensure that welfare resources can be fairly and appropriately allocated on the one hand, and to prevent them from being abused on the other, otherwise the needy will not be provided with support while the resources will be monopolized over a long period of time by those who have the ability to support themselves and do not really need any assistance at all.

The CSSA System has been implemented for 27 years now. The system itself is a safety net which provides people who have short-term livelihood problems with assistance to cover their basic cost of living. For this reason, the standard rates of CSSA should not be higher than the general cost of living of the community at large, nor should such rates be set at a level more attractive than the income that a similar household could earn from the market; otherwise, the original purpose of CSSA will be undermined as the recipients will easily be prompted to rely on the safety net and never want to leave.

Recently the media have disclosed a shocking CSSA case of a nine-person family. The family has been receiving CSSA since 1983 and the current total amount of CSSA payments received by the family members have amounted to $22,516 a month; however, the family is able to enjoy a surplus of $9,359 each month after paying for the cost of living which stands at only $13,157. I am sure that taxpayers at large will be very much displeased with this case. The result of a survey conducted by the Social Science Research Centre of the University of Hong Kong on 9 December last year has also indicated that members of the public are in support of a tightened CSSA Scheme because they are afraid that the Scheme might be abused. Of the 521 persons interviewed, about 60% consider CSSA would "nurture lazy bones", while 53% believe tightening the system could effectively motivate the CSSA recipients to rejoin the working population. I have no way to judge whether CSSA would "nurture lazy bones", but judging from the opinions raised by the people territory-wide, it is an undeniable fact that many members of the public do believe that CSSA would serve to reduce certain recipients' incentive to seek a job as rates of CSSA are even higher than wage rates.

As mentioned just now by Mr HO Sai-chu from the Liberal Party and admitted by government officials, the Administration has all along over-estimated the rate of inflation in adjusting the CSSA standard rates since the financial year 1992-93. According to government information, the over-estimates have caused the Government to spend $826 million more in total over the past six years. On the other hand, however, the cost of living index in Hong Kong has fallen substantially in the wake of the economic recession over the past year, thus giving rise to a negative increase in the rate of inflation. Let me take the Composite Consumer Price Index of November 1998 as an example. The prices for necessities such as clothing, food and accommodation have dropped by 10.2%, 0.4% and 2.2% compared to the corresponding figures in 1997. In view of the aforementioned changes, there is indeed a need for us to thoroughly review the CSSA rates ......

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): I should like to seek elucidation from the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW, since I am not sure if I have heard it wrong. Did Mrs Selina CHOW refer to the extra public expenditure on assistance over the past six years as amounting to several hundreds of million dollars just now? I have here a table provided by the Government, I wish to ......

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss LAU, do you wish to raise a point of order?

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): I wish to seek elucidation.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW, do you wish to continue with your speech or you will respond to Miss Emily LAU's request for elucidation?

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the amount I referred to just now was $826 million. Perhaps the public officer who speaks on the motion later could clarify the Honourable Miss Emily LAU's question. I should like to know if I could get back the speaking time lost? (Laughter)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please go on with your speech, Mrs CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): However, the adjustment should by no means affect such underprivileged of the community as the aged, the weak, the disabled and so on; besides, the CSSA rates must also be set at a level close to the current cost of living. In my opinion, the crux of the matter lies in fact in the question of whether or not the Government should cut back on CSSA expenditure, while the major point of concern of the public at large is the issue of whether the existing system has any impropriety or unfairness. Members of the public in fact do not care too much as to whether the Government could re-allocate the public funds earmarked for other usages to expenditure on CSSA payments. As a matter of fact, many from the public are sharing the view that the existing system is far from being fair. The Liberal Party maintains that CSSA should only be granted as support to those people who do not have the ability to take care of themselves. Just now Miss Cyd HO (she is not in her seat right now) echoed the point of view raised by Mr LEE Cheuk-yan that the major problem lies in the continuously falling wage levels; however, the continuous fall in wage levels is in fact determined by the rules of the market. The wage levels are not being suppressed deliberately by some employers. In this connection, wage levels are affected by market trends on the one hand and by competition on the other; indeed, the same pressure also applies to the economy. Everything is determined by the market; as such, we should not say that the wage levels have been deliberately suppressed by some people. As a matter of fact, the recent economic downturn has caused the rate of unemployment to soar, hence many who have the ability to take care of themselves are also under the threat of poverty. This is a fact everyone could see. In our opinion, regardless of the existing situation, we are now talking about two categories of persons, the first one being people who do not have the ability to take care of themselves, while the second being those who do have the ability to take care of themselves but have lost their jobs due to the present economic recession; they are two different groups of people who should therefore be provided with different and separate support. In this connection, welfare measures should be introduced to enable the Social Welfare Department to support the former category of persons with reasonable CSSA payments. As for the latter group, since the problem is in fact an economic and manpower one, we could not agree more that employee retraining should be arranged to help the people concerned to change jobs. Moreover, the Labour Department should also enhance the employment services provided for them. Yet the most important point is that the two groups of people should never be confused with each other. Instead of providing financial support, the ultimate and most effective method to help the unemployed persons should be to make every effort and put in more resources to improve the business environment; as for the way to increase job opportunities, we could not but to depend on investment and the enterprises. For this reason, we should be careful of not to mistake the symptoms for the cause of disease, since a wrong prescription is not only unable to cure the disease but may also serve to weaken one's resistance to disease. We should therefore be very careful indeed!

In regard to the proposals put forward by the Government, the only reservation I have is related to the one which requires single parents to seek full-time employment when their children reach the age of 12. My concern is that the implementation of the proposal would give rise to more youth problems. Insofar as principle is concerned, 12-year-olds graduating from primary school should be in greater need of more family support and parental care as the promotion to secondary school would bring about remarkable changes in both the environment and their daily lives; hence to require single parents to rejoin the working population at this juncture would be detrimental to the growth and development of their children. On the contrary, a 15 years old third former is comparatively more stable in terms of his or her character development and self-care ability; therefore, I really could see no reason why the age limit should be reduced from 15 to 12 years.

As regards the economic aspect, it has been estimated by the Government that some 7 000 single parents would be affected and need to seek full-time employment as required by the proposal; however, the Government could not tell how many of these single parents could release themselves from the CSSA safety net after successfully securing a job, or how much taxpayers' money could be saved in this way. I am afraid I could not agree to a proposal the economic effectiveness of which is still unknown but will rather very likely give rise to more youth and family problems.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I oppose the motion and the amendment proposed to it.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the direction in which the CSSA Scheme is reviewed and the proposed measures mentioned in it merit our support. There are however some deficiencies in the proposals which must be improved and rectified.

Mr Deputy, I support the Government's direction and proposals because we understand very well that Hong Kong is an open economy with keen competition from outside. Welfarism has a negative effect on the competitiveness of Hong Kong and the community as a whole.

The Government's direction is worthy of our support because it distinguishes between reasonable CSSA and welfarism. The review is so directed that it encourages recipients of CSSA to rejoin the community and stand on their own feet. There are a number of proposals in the review that deserve our support. For example, it has been stressed that suggestions by the Steering Group to tighten the measures will not affect recipients who are elderly people or people with a disability or confirmed by a doctor to be suffering from bad health. Other examples are: the Government would not after a certain period of time stop or reduce CSSA payments made to unemployed people who are in normal health; and the Government would treat the wages of recipients for the first month of their full-time jobs as disregarded earnings. So, I think it is unfair to reject the entire review purely on some proposals that are in want of improvement.

Mr Deputy, there is also room for improvement in the review. For example, it has failed to separate unemployment assistance and social security. Some underprivileged groups who need social security can never be self-reliant. Some require the help of the Government if they are to be self-reliant and rejoin the community, and such help include education and training. So, the Government should separate unemployment assistance and social security.

I agree that the Government should implement a "re-employment support scheme" as soon as possible. But the proposal to require unemployed recipients of CSSA to participate in unpaid community work is not helpful to getting them jobs or, as the report says, enhance their self-confidence and self-respect. The proposal will not prepare them for paid work either. The Government should make reference to overseas countries which have made some achievements in this respect by providing comprehensive employment services for recipients of unemployment assistance.

I support the idea of directing a review on CSSA at the root of the problem and long-term planning. I therefore do not agree to some proposals in the report which appear to be very mean, for example, cutting the grants for spectacles and for dental treatment which would not help reduce public spending very much. But these are necessities for members of the CSSA recipient families (especially children) and the reduction would greatly affect the healthy growth of these children. The proposal to require CSSA single parents to seek full-time employment when their youngest child reaches the age of 12 is too rigid. The Government has not considered the fact that some children in single-parent families are less healthy, more rebellious and require parents to spend more time with them, taking care of them and teaching them. I have reservations for this proposal of the Government.

However, the proposal to reduce the average CSSA standard monthly rates for three-person households should be reasonable. That rate is now $8,950 and would become $8,010 after reduction. This is rather high compared to the market wage. We must remember that there are still 400 000 people in the workforce earning between $5,000 to $6,000. It would be unfair to other employed workers at the lower end if we did not reduce the CSSA rate which is higher than the market rate.

In view of the shortcomings in the report, I suggest the Government should conduct further consultations with the social welfare sector and the public to make the review more comprehensive and reasonable.

Inasmuch as I support the direction of the review and some proposals in it, I must point out some improvements which I consider necessary for these proposals have really gone overboard. Furthermore, I would suggest solving the worsening unemployment problem at root by adopting a macroscopic development policy for the industrial structure. Dealing with unemployment assistance and social security separately can prevent confusing the two services. As the review involves the Government's macroscopic policy of the industries and the issue of separating unemployment assistance and social security, there are many approaches to conduct the review and the aspects involved do vary. The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance will not be voting in a unified manner. Its Members may vote according to their own approach so that pluralistic and comprehensive views can be represented.

Mr Deputy, I so submit.

DR LUI MING-WAH (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the prosperity of Hong Kong over the past decades has been made by the concerted efforts of all the people of Hong Kong. Therefore, all members of the community are entitled to share the fruit of Hong Kong's success. I have no objection to using the CSSA Scheme to help the old and the disabled and those who has a genuine need; nonetheless, I think we must put an end to abuses by those who have the ability to work.

Recently, there have been more and more cases of households applying for CSSA on the grounds of unemployment, single parenthood or low income. In the past few years, the percentage of applications lodged under these three categories the total number of applications received has risen from 14% in 1995 to 25% in 1998. Counting all the different categories of CSSA application together, the average number of CSSA recipients per case has risen from 1.5 in 1995 to 1.7 in 1998. If this trend continues, CSSA will become a heavy burden for our community.

Opinion polls have shown that most people agree that those who have genuine needs should be granted CSSA. Last year, the Health and Welfare Bureau conducted a telephone survey and successfully interviewed 1 500 persons. As reflected by the result of the survey, more than 75% of the interviewees were worried that expenditure on CSSA would increase drastically, while over 90% of the interviewees agreed that those who were not actively seeking a job or who refused to attend job interviews without any good reason should cease to be provided with CSSA. In addition, over 85% of the interviewees agreed that unemployed recipients with the ability to work should be requested to participate in community work; besides, 80% of the interviewees agreed that those who were unwilling to participate in community service without reasonable explanations should not be given CSSA payments.

So, we should review the present CSSA system with a view to helping the unemployed recipients to rejoin the workforce and eliminating those components which may discourage recipients from going to work so as to ensure recipients with the ability to work will not regard CSSA as a better choice or something they can rely on protractedly.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I object to the motion on "Review of the CSSA Scheme" moved by Dr YEUNG Sum and the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, in 1996, the Social Welfare Department conducted a review of the rates of CSSA to determine the expenditure items for the basic needs of living, including food, clothing, fuel, transport and so on. The food items were determined for each age group on the advice of a dietician. Other expenditure items were assessed by the Steering Group (composed entirely of government officials) and the costs of food and non-food items were determined with reference to the average retail prices of the lowest 50% commodity quotations. For the calculation of the costs of fuel, electricity and transport items, reference was made to the expenditure pattern of the lowest 5% non-CSSA income group. Thus, all along, the CSSA rates only allow recipients to purchase their basic necessities at the lowest price.

In this review of CSSA, however, the Government compared the CSSA rates with the average monthly income of the lowest income households, thus contravening the Government's long standing principle of determining CSSA rates according to basic needs. CSSA rates have already represented the most basic incomes for meeting basic needs. If the rates are lower than these income levels, CSSA recipients will not be able to maintain their physical and mental health. It is impossible for the Government to reduce the CSSA rates to the income levels of the lowest income households, unless it reviews the CSSA Scheme again and points out that the "basic needs" items included in the 1996 calculation are not necessities, or states that it wants to lower the rates now. However, the review was silent on these. Instead, the review report argues repeatedly that the CSSA rates are higher than the incomes of other households of the same category. Thus, the Government can well argue that the CSSA rates must be cut. However, if some people in the community still refuse to apply for assistance from the Government even if they are unable to meet their basic needs, what the Government should then consider is why these people do not apply for CSSA although they have barely enough to eat. Is this because the Government has not done enough to publicize the Scheme, or because the low income groups do not even know that they are eligible to apply? Or are they afraid of applying for CSSA because of the social label that CSSA has "nurtured lazy bones"?

Another argument put forward in the review is that it is easier for large households to economize. Therefore, the CSSA rates for large households can be cut. The calculation method of the review report is based on the average monthly expenditure of a lowest income one-person household, and the average monthly expenditure of each person in two-person and three-person households. Then arbitrarily using the monthly expenditure per person of a two-person household as its basis, the review points out that the monthly expenditure per person of three-person households is 7% less than that of other two-person and three-person households, and concludes that the rates for three-person households should be reduced by 10%, while the rates for four-person households should be reduced by 20%. But why should two-person households be used as the basis? Even if the Government's method is adopted, using a one-person household as the basis, then the CSSA rates for three-person households should be increased rather than reduced, and it will be almost needless to reduce the rates for four-person households. The crux of the problem merely lies in which households are used as the basis.

Most important of all, the Government has no reason at all to reduce the CSSA rates for households with three, four or more persons. In this motion debate, we specifically request that the Government should withdraw the proposal to reduce the CSSA rates for three-person households. This is because it is very difficult for a three-person household to control and cut its expenditure, especially for a single parent with two children who are still at the growing stage. Even at this moment when the CSSA rates are not yet cut, they can barely make their ends meet. Therefore, there is no reason to make further cuts. As to the question of whether or not the CSSA rates for other large households should be cut, we hope that the Government can come up with evidence to show that these households can still meet their basic needs if there is a real need for the rates to be cut, before we can conduct further discussions.

Another proposal put forward in the review is the scrapping of various special grants and the long-term supplement, including the burial grant, the grant for spectacles and the grant for telephone installation. The Government's proposal to scrap these necessary grants will only lead to two consequences. First, children of CSSA households will be unable to replace their spectacles even if their short-sightedness get worse. Second, CSSA households will have no telephone. Alternately, they will have to save on food and other basic expenses in order to get a pair of spectacles or have a telephone installed. Should a responsible government make such a proposal, asking CSSA recipients to eat less and save on clothes to obtain these daily necessities at the expense of adequate nutrition?

Mr Deputy, having read the questionnaire used by the Government, I can use an analogy to show that this survey is extremely misleading. The Government asks if a CSSA recipient with working ability is unwilling to work or does not look for employment without reasonable explanation, whether one would agree that his CSSA payment should be stopped. If I was asked this question, I would agree too. If he was criticized for behaving so badly, why should we still give him money? On the contrary, if an able secretary or a senior government official with a monthly income of $180,000 fails to fulfil his many tasks without reasonable explanation, would one agree that his salary should be cut? If I ask this question in accordance with the logic of the Chinese wording of the questionnaire, how do you suppose the public will answer? I am sure that most people will agree that his salary should be cut. If I ask further whether he should be dismissed and punished, many people would agree too. This is where the question lies. Since this group of people was described in such a negative manner as refusing to work without giving any explanation, something must of course be done to deal with them. Even without going to academics such as Mr LAW Chi-kwong and Dr YEUNG Sum, I can see that there are a lot of flaws in these questions because of the way in which they were drafted. I hope that when the Government next drafts such questionnaires, it can consult the academics and professors first, so as to save the trouble of asking them to point out the numerous mistakes and flaws in them. With these remarks, I support the original motion.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, over the past years, the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) has repeatedly asked the Government to review the CSSA Scheme. The reason is, as we have stated many times in the former Legislative Council as well as in this Council, we see that CSSA provides a safety net for the community, a basic net for those who cannot help themselves. However, as society develops, the CSSA Scheme has brought about a number of problems.

Moreover, since there is no retirement protection in Hong Kong, more and more old people are receiving CSSA. Thus, the CSSA Scheme also has to fulfil the expectations of the elderly. Over the years, we have been holding the view that the Government needs to conduct a review in the face of these changes. For instance, it is grossly inadequate for the Government to deal with the problems of unemployment and the livelihood of the elderly by means of the CSSA Scheme alone. Thus, over the years, we have been asking the Government to separately deal with the social problems which have emerged since the post-war period. To solve these problems, the Government should no longer resort to the CSSA Scheme of the '70s. This is one of the main reasons why the FTU has repeatedly urged the Government to carry out a review. In recent years, many people were thrown out of work due to the transformation of our economic structure. Finding the pressures of living insurmountable, they were forced to rely on CSSA. Although they are very eager to work, the CSSA Scheme does not encourage them to work. The whole Scheme just makes CSSA recipients hide in a corner as it only provides them with food and housing, without providing any favourable conditions that will encourage them to work again. I have talked to the incumbent Secretary Mrs FOK many times. I have kept on asking the Government to give grants for pagers, transport and information. Initially, the Government did not understand it. Finally, it understood and even agreed with us. At first, I thought that after reviewing the CSSA Scheme, the Government would address the plight faced by unemployed CSSA recipients squarely. However, as it turned out, the result of the review was to propose various reductions, a result which is entirely different from "Support for Self-reliance", the title of the published review report. The review only proposes reduction, without helping those who have the ability to work but require government assistance to join the labour market again.

Mr Deputy, I am sure you will remember that when I joined the Legislative Council in 1995, many people in the manufacturing industry were unemployed due to the transformation of our economic structure. These people earnestly hoped that the Government would come up with a positive plan to help them join the labour market again. What I wished for was not a scheme which would merely provide financial assistance. Instead, I wished that the Government could provide jobs so that they could be re-employed. Therefore, I had proposed the unemployment assistance scheme, which was voted down at that time unfortunately. However, we have already made the most important and central point and that is, how the scheme can give these people a chance to work in the community again. But despite our suggestion, the Government seemed to have paid no attention to what was said then and refused to accept it.

Judging from the present situation, the Government seems to maintain its stance. I would like to say to the Government that if it continues to move forward in this direction, that is, to include the unemployed into the scope of CSSA, we will find it impossible to achieve the aim of "Support for Self-reliance" as proclaimed in the title of the review report. The Government's expenditure on CSSA will also keep on rising. In the end, how can the expenditure be reduced? If there is no way to reduce it, are we not asking them to refrain from eating? Therefore, I very much hope that the Government can act in accordance with the title instead of doing something that runs in the opposite direction. It is extremely important to find ways to achieve the objective of "Support for Self-reliance".

The elderly also constitutes an enormous problem. Among the various problems faced by the elderly CSSA recipients at present, there are problems like hospitalization and medical care, such as consulting traditional Chinese medical practitioners. I very much doubt whether one single CSSA Scheme can solve the various problems of the elderly and enable them to live a dignified life in their twilight years. In the end, it might turn out that none of the problems could be solved. Furthermore, with the ageing of the population, the burden on CSSA will definitely grow. Why does the Government not come up with an elderly scheme, such as the old age pension scheme we mentioned before, to help them? It is essential for the Government to think about this carefully.

After talking about these two issues, I desperately want to say that over the past two years, the economic transformation has given rise to huge unemployment, and a financial turmoil has also emerged. As a result, we estimated that unemployment in Hong Kong will get even worse. The Government should therefore introduce a scheme in the short term to help the unemployed find employment. The FTU's re-employment support scheme has received full support from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB), which has proposed an amendment in today's motion debate. Therefore, I support the DAB's amendment. This amendment carries a positive implication as to how we can help the unemployed rejoin the workforce through a combination of means, including financial assistance, skills training, psychological counselling and team strength. This can help the unemployed as well as the Government in solving the problem of the snowballing of CSSA expenditure which the Government has all along been afraid of. It is unfortunate that the Government has refused to listen to us. But in this connection, I wish to talk to the Democratic Party. Today, Mr Andrew CHENG talked about dealing with the unemployment problem separately. However, his mentality is the same as the mentality we had in 1996 when we proposed the unemployment assistance scheme. I am very grateful to him for he started off by agreeing to our proposal to deal with the problems separately. However, why did he not support the re-employment support scheme? He said that the scheme would cost the Government more than $800 million each year. What I want to say is if $800 million or so can help the unemployed to find employment again, why should we not support it? He also said he was concerned that our scheme did not prescribe an assets limit. I do not know what Mr Andrew CHENG was talking about. The re-employment support scheme proposed by the FTU and the DAB does have an assets limit. While the current assets limit set by the Government is around $30,000, we only propose to increase it to $120,000. Why did the Democratic Party not support us? Our scheme also has a limit. So, I hope that when it comes to the final voting, the Democratic Party will not oppose us. If we repeat the mistake of 1996, we will let the Government get away with it. Since the Democratic Party agrees that we should deal with the unemployed and those who are unable to work separately, why does it not support our scheme as well?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr YEUNG Sum, are you seeking elucidation or do you have a point of order?

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): I want to seek elucidation. I find that Miss CHAN Yuen-han ......

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr YEUNG Sum, do you have a point of order or do you want to express your views? You will have a chance to respond later. Would you please let her continue with her speech? Miss CHAN Yuen-han, please continue.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, please give me back a little time.

At present, the whole community is facing an economic recession. Over a million people in Hong Kong have received only below Form Three education. They will definitely find it hard to find work in the community again. So far, the Government has failed to come up with a good solution to help them. At this moment, we should pool our strength in this Council to force the Government to help those who cannot help themselves by means of the CSSA Scheme.

In addition, we propose to launch a separate scheme, that is, the re-employment support scheme, to help the unemployed. I also hope that the Government can set up an old age pension scheme so as to enable the elderly to live a dignified life.

Mr Deputy, the FTU supports both the original motion and the amendment. Thank you.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, just now Miss CHAN Yuen-han expressed some views and made some criticisms on Mr Andrew CHENG's remark about why the Democratic Party cannot support Mr CHAN Kam-lam's amendment today.

I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate that the Democratic Party takes the unemployment problem very seriously and considers that we need to address it squarely. The Government should take responsibility for the plight of the unemployed and deal with this problem properly. We also agree that in view of the problem of serious unemployment today, which has signs of intensifying, the CSSA Scheme might not be able to meet the needs as it used to do. Therefore, we should deal with the different groups of people separately. However, the question remains whether a non-contributory scheme suggested by the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) with vetting of personal assets is a long-term solution to the problem.

Of course, first of all, we must admit that the proposal made by the DAB and the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) is well-intentioned. I think we need to face and solve the problem together. However, in our view, if we want a long-term and effective solution affordable to the Government, we have to consider some contributory insurance schemes. This question brooks no delay. Indeed, we have tried our best to study such a scheme and I am sure we can come up with some suggestions very soon.

With regard to the amount mentioned by Mr Andrew CHENG, if we multiply the amount proposed by the DAB by the number of unemployed persons, it will amount to only $800 million or so. However, if one vets the assets of an individual instead of a household, the number of persons eligible to apply for unemployment assistance might be doubled or even tripled. If the situation deteriorates, the amount might far exceed $800 million. It might cost three, four or even five billion dollars. We have tried calculating the amount. If unemployment deteriorates further, the cost might reach $6 billion. Of course, if $6 billion can solve all the problems, it still merits considering. However, we must remember that this amount will be only be good for six months. What happens after this period? Therefore, we feel that these issues warrant study. At the moment, it is inappropriate for us to support Mr CHAN Kam-lam's amendment. This is the first point.

Second, I have listened to many Honourable colleagues' speeches on their views on the Government's review. I quite agree with them on one point. Today, in the face of these difficulties in Hong Kong, we should no longer try to help the Government cut expenditure and let some people in dire straits be stigmatized and humiliated.

The Government claims that it is targeting at those who are able to work but do not look for a job. However, the whole publicity campaign has given people an impression that many CSSA recipients are loafers unwilling to work and that the whole system encourages people to be loafers. Actually, I find this extremely unfair. Although I am not engaged in social service, we are front-line workers in the districts and often interview members of the public. Our frequent interviews with people who can go nowhere else for help give us a lot of food for thought. I can cite some examples. I have conducted such interviews myself on more than one occasion. One person came to ask us to help her obtain maintenance for her children. She said that so long as she could obtain maintenance for her children, she could take better care of them and could even work without relying on CSSA. That was why she asked us to help her. However, as we all know, it is not easy to obtain legal aid. Very often, even if one is granted legal aid, one might not be able to recover maintenance from the ex-husband or the ex-husband may have disappeared. This is because we do not have the support of a maintenance department. The person who sought help was caught in a dilemma. She told me that she really did not want to receive CSSA payment and that it would be best if she could be self-reliant and work for a living. If the Government could provide her with child care service, she could also go to work. This is one of the cases. I have seen many similar cases. Most people ask us to help them seek employment. As we all know, the Democratic Party and other political parties also provide employment services to help the unemployed find a job. These people who seek help often tell us that it does not matter if the work is hard or humble, or if the hours are long. As long as they can find a job paying a few thousand dollars so that they can support themselves and make ends meet, they would be satisfied. They would not want to receive CSSA payment any more. There are quite a number of these people.

Last week, I interviewed someone who worked in a hostel, taking care of the handicapped or even mentally handicapped who need institutional care. He had to bathe patients weighing over 100 lb to 200 lb. On one occasion, the patient turned out of a sudden and he hurt his back. He was on sick leave. He asked me to talk to the staff of that institution so that they would let him go back to work after he had recovered. He said he did not want to live on CSSA after obtaining the compensation. He wanted to be able to work with dignity and make money to support himself and his family by labour.

There are many such examples. I hope that the Government will take note of their cases or even conduct a study itself. It will find that many people prefer taking up a hard job to support themselves and their families for the sake of dignity, to applying for CSSA which might mean more money though. I hope that the community will not neglect that there are such people, or discriminate against the CSSA recipients. They receive CSSA because there is no alternative. They do so in order to maintain themselves and their children. We should not take a biased view, using one or two examples to make generalizations and stigmatize all CSSA recipients. This is certainly not something that we would like to see in Hong Kong.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Please raise your hands.

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr YEUNG Sum, you may now speak on Mr CHAN Kam-lam's amendment. You have up to five minutes to speak.

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I just want to make two points briefly. First, Mr CHAN proposed to implement a re-employment support scheme to provide financial assistance and other services to the unemployed. In terms of financial assistance, it will be provided for six months in principle at a monthly rate of $5,000. We are very much worried by this scheme very much. When Mr CHAN proposed this idea, he did not say where the source of financing was. As we all know, Hong Kong is a low-tax city. Unless we increase taxes, we cannot increase our revenue. However, a tax rise will affect the investors' desire to invest. At present, there are over 100 000 unemployed people. If 60% of them receive unemployment assistance, the cost might be as high as over $3 billion, while the budget for CSSA might be only $9 billion or so, although it could be increased to over $13 billion. If the amount is $9 billion or so, over $3 billion would be one third of the total CSSA expenditure. What about other services for the elderly, the weak and the handicapped? They also make up our social welfare expenditure. Therefore, we could hardly support this. A more effective way may be, in my view, to set up a contributory unemployment insurance system. Then it would obviate the need to rely on taxation. Hong Kong needs to maintain a low tax regime to attract investors. If the tax regime is changed, it might give rise to another consequence. This is the first point.

Second, Mr CHAN proposed to separately deal with the clients of unemployment assistance and CSSA. This we can agree for the unemployment insurance system we suggest for government study is also meant to deal with these clients separately.

Since we agree to one part of the amendment and oppose the other, the Democratic Party will abstain from voting on Mr CHAN's amendment. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, first of all, I would like to thank Dr YEUNG Sum for moving this motion so that we can have a chance to discuss this motion which has an important bearing on our future social security scheme in today's Council meeting. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the many Members who have spoken on this motion earlier, no matter whether or not they are in support of the proposals put forward in the Report on Review of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme. As we have more than 350 000 CSSA recipients and CSSA expenditure represents quite a large percentage of government recurrent expenditure, it is imperative for us to listen carefully to opinions of people from various strata of the community so that we can do a better job in this review.

To start with, let me give an introduction on the background of the CSSA Scheme. Since its implementation in 1971, the Scheme has been providing the elderly, disabled and the chronically ill who are not supported by their families with financial assistance to meet the needs of their basic living. Throughout the 20 years between the early '70s and the early '90s, these three categories of persons constituted the bulk of CSSA recipients, whereas CSSA expenditure at that time accounted for approximately 2% of government recurrent expenditure only. But since 1993-94, this situation has changed fundamentally. Of the CSSA recipients, cases involving employable households have risen rapidly from 11 000 in 1993-94 to more than 60 000 as of today. The number of people involved is more than 140 000, representing 40% of the total number of CSSA recipients. What worries us is that many recipients have been receiving CSSA payments for two, three, four years or even more than that.

With the dramatic growth in the number of CSSA recipients, CSSA expenditure naturally rises rapidly. Five years ago, the total CSSA expenditure only added up to $2.4 billion. But it is estimated that the total expenditure for this financial year will exceed $13 billion. We will be applying to the Finance Committee this Friday for an additional funding of $1.6 billion to meet the rapidly rising expenditure. In other words, CSSA expenditure has risen five times over the past five years. So far, CSSA expenditure has been financed by taxation. As a low-tax city, Hong Kong will be unable to sustain such an increase in the long term.

At present, CSSA expenditure has already accounted for nearly 7% of government recurrent spending or more than 50% of the recurrent expenditure of the Social Welfare Department (SWD). If CSSA expenditure continues to rise, it will eventually affect our ability to provide other social services, such as education, medical and other direct welfare services.

Turning now to the policy objectives of reviewing the CSSA Scheme, "Support for Self-reliance" is the main policy objective for this review. In the long run, if Hong Kong is to continue to enjoy a CSSA Scheme affordable by all of us to provide a safety net for the elderly, disabled and the chronically ill who are not supported by their families, we must encourage employable people to set "Support for Self-reliance" as their objective. CSSA should only provide relief for their short-term difficulties. Nevertheless, I must reiterate that the proposals put forward in this review will not affect the elderly, chronically ill and the disabled who are now receiving assistance.

I would also like to talk about our competitive edge. Though Hong Kong is lack of natural resources, it has received international acclaims for the economic achievements it has made over the past few decades. In addition to an excellent natural harbour and an ideal geographical location, we have been relying on our precious human resources. With the diligence and flexibility of the people of Hong Kong, we have been able to overcome difficulties and continue to move forward in spite of the fact that Hong Kong has experienced a good deal of hardships. To maintain our competitive edge, we must maintain the good quality of our workforce, particularly its hard-working, flexible and self-reliant spirit.

At present, a CSSA payment of about $9,000 is payable to a three-person household each month, and more than $10,000 for a four-person household. On the other hand, the general wages for jobs not requiring special skills in the market range from $5,000 to $9,000 only. From an objective angle, this has given rise to a situation where CSSA payments exceed wages, and this has become a matter of concern to us. This is because I believe Members will all agree that the CSSA Scheme should not undermine the recipients' incentive in seeking work.

To help employable CSSA recipients to rejoin the workforce as early as possible, the SWD is going to launch a "Support for Self-reliance" Scheme to provide them with Active Employment Assistance. The SWD will work closely with the Labour Department (LD) and the Employment Retraining Board (ERB) to encourage and help CSSA recipients through a co-ordinated programme of counselling, employment and retraining services. With the help of SWD staff, participants will draw up a personalized action plan to find work and will be expected to adhere to it. Regular follow-up interviews will be arranged by the SWD to monitor the progress of their job search and to render appropriate assistance, such as referring them to Family Service Centres for counselling and other support services. As regards the roles played by the LD and ERB in this area, Mr Joseph WONG, the Secretary for Education and Manpower, will elaborate on them later.

Now I will turn to the levels of CSSA benefits. In this review, we propose to adjust the standard rates of payments to able-bodied members in households comprising three or more such members. For households with three able-bodied members, the payments will be reduced by 10%. For households with four or more such members, the payment will be reduced by 20%. This proposal has taken the effectiveness of economies of scale into main consideration. In other words, the average personal expenditure for larger households is generally lower than that for smaller households. This is accepted by the public in general according to the views we have collected from various parties.

On the other hand, we propose that the special grants for which able-bodied recipients can apply be restricted to items required for the purpose of maintaining basic living. But CSSA children can continue to receive special grants related to schooling such as school fee, textbook allowance, fares to school, meal allowance for full-day students and so on. As far as a junior secondary student who is not required to pay school fee is concerned, if he needs to spend $10 on travelling expenses for going to and from his school everyday, he can receive a special grant of about $760 on average each month. This allowance is going to be retained and will not be subject to reduction. In this review, some people have proposed that certain allowances should be retained. We will consider all the views carefully in deciding on the retention of individual allowance items.

If these two proposals can be implemented, how much in CSSA payments can a three-person household and a four-person household eventually receive each month on average? A three-person household can still receive $8,000 each month, while a four-person household can have $9,500. We are of the view that these levels of payment should be able to meet the expenses required by an average family for maintaining its basic living. I believe we must base the proposals on these grounds before they can have the support of most members of the public.

Just now, a number of Members have put forward numerous suggestions on community work. By virtue of the Scheme, we hope that unemployed CSSA recipients can continue to keep their habit and desire to work. We will continue to provide them with appropriate work. On the other hand, CSSA recipients can make contribution to the community through participation in community work. In their speeches just now, some Members expressed the hope that we can make careful planning to arrange CSSA recipients to do something valuable. We are pleased to accept and consider this suggestion. And before implementing this suggestion, we will consider the matter carefully. I also hope that Members can refrain from putting labels on such community work indiscriminately as this might impose undue pressure on those who might be pleased to work in future. We will also bear in mind that if the relevant person can provide a reasonable explanation or has any special needs, we will deal with the requirement to do community work flexibly.

On the other hand, I understand that Members are concerned with the fact that we need to allocate resources for arranging community work. As we are having a tight budget at the moment, I believe the Financial Secretary will not make too much funds available to us for carrying out the work. As such, our plan will be formulated in accordance with the principle of "low cost, high effectiveness". Moreover, a number of service organizations and government departments will work together in mapping out the plan.

As for single parents, a number of Members have made a lot of comments on this area. It is now proposed that CSSA single parents with the youngest child aged 12 and above should seek work. We have collected a great diversity of opinions in response to this suggestion, and we understand that it is quite controversial. But the suggestion still managed to obtain support from more than half of the respondents in the opinion poll conducted by us. In finalizing the proposal, we will definitely consider the views from all sides carefully. But we are aware that most CSSA single parents hope they can seek work as early as possible so that they will no longer need to rely on CSSA. The Government will review the existing supporting services in the hope that it can help single parents to rejoin the workforce as soon as possible. Just now, Miss Cyd HO mentioned supporting facilities, such as the opening hours of nurseries, a point which has been included in another review conducted at the moment. Though some nurseries have already extended their opening hours, not too many do likewise to date. We will continue to encourage more nurseries to extend their opening hours so that working families can feel at ease to put their children under the care of nurseries. But we are not doing this solely for the sake of CSSA families. We must do it so that working families can feel at ease to put their children under the care of nurseries. However, this proposal is targeted at youngsters who are aged over 12 and who are now studying in secondary schools instead of those who need to be taken care of by nurseries. We also share the view that it will help working families if the opening hours of nurseries can be extended to boost the supporting services in this area.

Just now, a number of Members pointed out that we had in our proposals only deleted items, without adding any new ones. But actually, one additional item has been proposed. Under the existing system, if unemployed people manage to secure a job, their wages will be deducted from their CSSA payments, thus making them lose their incentive and interest to work. One of our proposals is that if they succeed in getting a job, their first month's wages will be totally disregarded and they can continue to receive CSSA payments during the first month.

Finally, I want to respond to Mr CHAN Kam-lam's amendment. Mr CHAN has proposed that social security and unemployment assistance should be dealt with separately.

CSSA has all along been an important component of our social security scheme, providing financial assistance to people with financial difficulties because of various reasons.

The current review has successfully aroused Members' concerns. We must deal with the rapid rise in the number of employable CSSA recipients. Therefore, in addition to providing financial assistance, we have also put forward the "Support for Self-reliance" Scheme to encourage and help the unemployed to seek work as early as possible. We are of the view that this Scheme can provide assistance in a more comprehensive manner; therefore, there is no need to deal with the matter separately by setting up another unemployment assistance fund. This is because this will take a lot of time and involve planning work as well as enormous administrative expenses, not to mention we are not sure if it will achieve the desired effects.

Just now, a number of Members have expressed a lot of opinions about opinion polls. In carrying out this consultation exercise, we have, in addition to conducting opinion polls, gathered views through various channels such as collecting letters and telephone calls from the SWD, gathering views through radio programmes and visiting various district boards, a number of non-governmental organizations, as well as consulting people of various sectors. But as these views were generated from individual organizations, the SWD has, for the sake of gathering the public views on the various proposals contained in the review report more systematically, commissioned an independent market research company to interview 1 500 members of the public at random and listen to their views on the review report.

Although some Members have mentioned some of the findings of the opinion poll, I should like to take this opportunity to talk about them in a more comprehensive manner:

- A great majority or 93% of the respondents agree that employable people who are unwilling to work should stop receiving CSSA payments. This is now taken as a conclusion.

- 86% of the respondents agree to requiring employable people who are receiving CSSA payments because of unemployment to take part in community work on a regular basis. 81% of the respondents also agree that if the relevant unemployed people are reluctant to take part in community work without offering any reasonable explanation, the SWD should stop making CSSA payments to them.

Views on reducing CSSA rates:

- 68% of the respondents agree that CSSA payments for a four-person household should be reduced from $11,000 to $9,500. 69% of the respondents agree that payments for a three-person household should be reduced from $9,000 to $8,000.

Views on assets:

- 73% of the respondents agree that a lower assets limit should be applied to family cases involving any able-bodied adult. 69% of the respondents agree that for family cases involving any employable adult aged below 50, any owner-occupied residential property should also be included for the purpose of calculating assets.

- A relatively controversial proposal, that is, requiring single parents to seek work when their youngest child reaches the age of 12, is supported by 55% of the respondents and opposed by 40% of the respondents.

In conclusion, we can see that three quarters of the respondents are worried about the sharp rise in CSSA expenditure. But 98% of them are of the view that the elderly, the chronically ill and the disabled should not be affected by this review. Obviously, we all agree that the basic objective of the CSSA Scheme is to provide a safety net for these three categories of people, whereas those who are employable should be self-reliant.

I would also like to take this opportunity to respond to the figures contained in Annex 8 as mentioned by Miss Emily LAU. These figures are related to cases of abuse and fraud rather than excessive payments made over the past six years because of the over-estimation of the increase in inflation. Each year, we are required to apply to this Council for funding as a result of inflation adjustment as well as assessing the inflation rate for the coming year. As our economic environment was more favourable in the past and the differences resulted from the over-estimation of inflation were not too great, we had not deducted the differences from CSSA expenditure. The current phenomenon has been a result of the accumulated differences.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, under the proposals outlined in the "Support for Self-reliance" Scheme, the Labour Department (LD) and the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) will work closely with the Social Welfare Department (SWD) to encourage and help unemployed CSSA recipients to rejoin the workforce through a co-ordinated programme of counselling, employment and retraining services.

The Social Security Field Units (SSFU) under the SWD will set up "one-stop" units to draw up a personalized action plan to find work for unemployed CSSA recipients and introduce to them the services provided by the LD and ERB. At the same time, the LD will provide SSFU with information on job vacancies through the Internet. CSSA recipients can also seek employment counselling service from the Local Employment Service (LES) under the LD. They can, through the semi-self-help employment counselling service provided by LES, search for appropriate job vacancies from the database and ask the staff of LES to arrange interviews with employers. As for unemployed CSSA recipients with special needs, the LD will provide them with job matching services such as employment counselling and retraining referral services to give them more assistance in order to boost their employment opportunities.

At present, the ERB is providing more than 150 training programmes of various kinds. These programmes cover an extensive scope, including courses focusing on enhancing the skills to seek jobs and various vocational skills training. CSSA recipients can select appropriate courses in the light of their personal interests and ability, and their applications will be given priority. The ERB is now planning to organize more courses with good employment results such as courses on estate management, home help and so on. These courses should be able to meet the needs of CSSA recipients. In addition, the ERB will consider, in the light of actual needs, organizing pre-training or pre-vocational seminars and workshops specifically designed for the unemployed, including CSSA recipients so that they can grasp the latest situation of the labour market and acquire the skills to seek jobs so as to boost their confidence and enhance their employment opportunities. I would also like to point out that people attending a full-time retraining course that lasts more than one week can receive a monthly retraining allowance of $4,000 on average.

In addition to vocational training and retraining, the Government also greatly encourages the development of continuing education and further study. I will make a detailed response in this respect in the debate to be held later.

As regards the issue concerning the offer of financial assistance to the unemployed from public money, I have stated clearly in a debate on unemployment in July last year that the existing CSSA Scheme has already provided financial assistance for those who have financial difficulties because of such reasons as unemployment, disability and sickness to help them meet the various needs of their basic living. In addition, the employment legislation in Hong Kong has also provided a series of protection for dismissed workers and this includes mainly payment in lieu of notice, severance payment and long service payment. If employers fail to discharge such statutory responsibilities in respect of wages, payment in lieu of notice, severance payment or long service payment, the affected employees can apply to the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund for ex-gratia payment. Therefore, the Government considers there is no need to set up, in addition to this system, another non-means-tested scheme which is designed purely for providing the unemployed with financial assistance drawn from public money. According to the experiences of many advanced countries in the West, nationals will rely on financial assistance on a long-term basis and lose their desire to work once an unemployment assistance system is in place for a long time. Therefore, we must consider this issue seriously.

In fact, the most effective way to help the unemployed is to help them join the workforce again and make unremitting efforts to improve themselves. Therefore, we hold that it is more appropriate for us to inject more resources to provide the unemployed with more effective employment services and organize training courses so as to help them rejoin the labour market as early as possible and continue to work as well as creating employment opportunities through various measures than to put a huge amount of public money into the existing public assistance scheme.

Just now, I heard Mr Albert HO say that some unemployed people are very eager to work. I absolutely believe there are such people. I would like to urge them and other unemployed people not to lose their confidence. Although the unemployment rate is still standing high at the moment, vacancies can still be found in individual trades and posts such as those engaging in pig rearing and care-providers in private homes for the aged. Each month, we still have 4 000 or so unemployed people who have succeeded in finding jobs through the help of the LD. I absolutely agree that it still takes some time before the overall employment situation can be fully improved. But I am pleased to assure Members of this Council that the Government will try every possible means to help unemployed CSSA recipients to take up a new job.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, in debates, we will have full opportunities for every Member to speak, and government officials are even more welcomed to give more responses. But I will appreciate it very much if they can inform me in advance or indicate such intentions by raising their hands. A Member has asked me to let him speak to clarify the part of his speech which has been wrongly interpreted. But I do not intend to accede to his request because I do not want to trigger off another round of smaller debates on a specific point again.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the request was actually made by me in accordance with Rule 38(3) of the Rules of Procedure. In this connection, may I ask why you have made such a ruling. I was not in the Chamber when Miss CHAN Yuen-han delivered her speech earlier. But now I have learnt she has some misunderstanding about my comments. Therefore, I think I absolutely have the right under the Rules of Procedure to elucidate in response to the few comments she made. I believe I will not hold up Members for too long.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG, please sit down. I made such a decision because I was of the view that all Members should sit here and listen while other Members were delivering their speeches. Members should, after the Member who spoke had finished his or her speech, raise their hands or stand up immediately and ask me to let them make clarification if they found that there was any misunderstanding. But I cannot allow Members to ask for clarification when a debate is coming to the end.

Perhaps Members might feel that there is no chance for them to make clarification. But as time is very precious for this Council, I do not want to let Mr Andrew CHENG to make clarification at the end of the debate today, and then let another Member to do the same thing the other day. In that case, our debate will be unnecessarily delayed. This is why I decided to uphold my ruling.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, will you make the same ruling if similar things happen in future? This is because, as far as I understand it, we did have an occasion on which a Member sought to make clarification after several Members had spoken, and the President (I forgot whether it was you or the President of the former Legislative Council) had acceded to such a request. Anyhow, I respect your ruling. But will this be taken as the criteria for your future ruling?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Any Member who does not agree to my ruling is welcomed to discuss with me outside this Council. But as President, I cannot and I do not intend to explain my ruling to Mr CHENG or any other Member in this Council. This is because I do not want to waste Members' time. How the former Presidents made their ruling is their business. Insofar as I am concerned, I will act in accordance with the manner which I deem fit and proper to make this Council operate smoothly. Mr CHENG is welcomed to discuss with me outside this Council.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr CHAN Kam-lam be made to Mr YEUNG Sum's motion. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to claim a division? I claim a division. (Laughter) The division bell will ring for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Let me explain while the division bell is ringing. I saw that some Members had not raised their hands. As voting shall be proceeded in groups, I think it is more appropriate to claim for a division as a matter of caution.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are there any queries before I declare that voting shall stop? Voting shall stop and the result will now be displayed.

Functional Constituencies:

Mr CHAN Kwok-keung, Mr CHAN Wing-chan and Dr TANG Siu-tong voted for the amendment.

Mr Kenneth TING, Mr James TIEN, Mr Edward HO, Dr Raymond HO, Mr Eric LI, Dr LUI Ming-wah, Miss Margaret NG, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr HUI Cheung-ching, Mr Bernard CHAN, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Dr Philip WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr FUNG Chi-kin voted against the amendment.

Mr Michael HO, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Mr Ambrose CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Mr LAW Chi-kwong abstained.

Geographical Constituencies and Election Committee:

Miss Cyd HO, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr Gary CHENG, Mr Jasper TSANG, Mr LAU Chin-shek, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Miss Emily LAU, Mr CHAN Kam-lam and Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung voted for the amendment.

Mr HO Sai-chu voted against the amendment.

Mr Albert HO, Mr LEE Wing-tat, Mr Martin LEE, Mr Fred LI, Mr James TO, Miss Christine LOH, Mr Andrew WONG, Dr YEUNG Sum, Mr Andrew CHENG, Mr SZETO Wah, Mr NG Leung-sing, Prof NG Ching-fai and Mr MA Fung-kwok abstained.

THE PRESIDENT, Mrs Rita FAN, did not cast any vote.

THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, three were in favour of the amendment, 18 against it and five abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 26 were present, 11 were in favour of the amendment, one against it and 13 abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr YEUNG Sum, you originally have 15 minutes to speak and reply. But as you have spoken at some length at the beginning, you have now only three seconds left. Do you want to reply? (Laughter)

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I thank Honourable Members for their speeches. Although not all of them support my motion, some Members will support some parts of it. I am sure the two Secretaries have heard them quite clearly. It would be even better if Members could support more of it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr YEUNG Sum, as set out on the Agenda, be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to claim a division?

Dr YEUNG Sum rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr YEUNG Sum has claimed a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Before I declare that voting shall stop, are there any queries? Voting shall stop and the result will now be displayed.

Functional Constituencies:

Mr Michael HO, Mr Eric LI, Miss Margaret NG, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Mr CHAN Kwok-keung, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Mr LAW Chi-kwong and Dr TANG Siu-tong voted for the motion.

Mr Kenneth TING, Mr James TIEN, Mr Edward HO, Dr LUI Ming-wah, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr HUI Cheung-ching, Mr Bernard CHAN, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Dr Philip WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mrs Miriam LAU and Mr FUNG Chi-kin voted against the motion.

Dr Raymond HO, Mr Ambrose CHEUNG and Dr LEONG Che-hung abstained.

Geographical Constituencies and Election Committee:

Miss Cyd HO, Mr Albert HO, Mr LEE Wing-tat, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr Martin LEE, Mr Fred LI, Mr James TO, Miss Christine LOH, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr Gary CHENG, Mr Andrew WONG, Mr Jasper TSANG, Dr YEUNG Sum, Mr LAU Chin-shek, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Miss Emily LAU, Mr Andrew CHENG, Mr SZETO Wah, Mr CHAN Kam-lam and Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung voted for the motion.

Mr HO Sai-chu voted against the motion.

Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr NG Leung-sing, Prof NG Ching-fai and Mr MA Fung-kwok abstained.

THE PRESIDENT, Mrs Rita FAN, did not cast any vote.

THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, nine were in favour of the motion, 14 against it and three abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 27 were present, 21 were in favour of the motion, one against it and four abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she therefore declared that the motion was negatived.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second motion. Developing continuing education.

DEVELOPING CONTINUING EDUCATION

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG ( in Cantonese ): Madam President, I rise to move the motion as set out on the Agenda.

Hong Kong has an urgent need to develop continuing education, no matter whether the consideration is cultural development, social evolution or the concept of fairness. As modern society is undergoing rapid developments, we can no longer meet the requirements of modern society merely with knowledge acquired in our old school days. The varieties of jobs and ranges of duties in the future are going to be totally different from what we know now. With the ongoing changes in various organizations and traditional personal duties, and the intensification of such changes in the future, every person has to make adjustment rapidly. The importance of education lies in keeping every person in step with the ever-changing society and reality as well as in enabling individuals to set up their personal values. So the opportunity of education should be enlarged incessantly. What is more, members of society should have equal opportunities to study what they like and develop their skills.

Madam President, continuing education is just like eating. Babies have to eat, so do grown-ups aged between 20 and 30 and the elderly aged between 60 and 70. Nobody ever holds that a person needs not eat once he has left school. The concept of continuing education is to provide the most suitable equipment in accordance with the different needs of human life at different stages.

In his policy address last October, the Chief Executive again stressed the point of giving education top priority and, for the first time, brought up the subject of "life-long learning", promising to make every effort to give everyone a chance to upgrade their skills if they so wish. Recently, the Government injected into the Employees' Retraining Board (ERB) an additional $500 million, and it is going to set objective yardsticks for assessing the skills of trainees undertaking programmes run by the Vocational Training Council (VTC) and the ERB within one year so as to establish a distinct education and training structure. These can be said to be some of the more specific undertakings of the Government of the Special Administration Region (SAR) in respect of the policy on developing continuing education.

However, in the past, continuing education was not a mainstream item in Hong Kong's educational policy, with the Government all along adopting a policy of positive non-intervention towards continuing education. As a result, many problems have cropped up:

1. The services of continuing education unable to meet the demands of society

According to the census of 1996, of the 3 million people in the labour force of Hong Kong , 43% merely had an education level not higher than lower secondary. The overall education level was lower than that of our neighbours, Singapore and Taiwan. The recently-released United Nations report on human development also indicates that the illiteracy rate in Hong Kong is as high as 8%. Although at present non-government-run programmes of continuing education are quite impressive in number, statistics from operating institutions indicate that the participation of those with education level not higher than lower secondary is very low, which well reflects the fact that these people show relatively little initiative to learn due to different factors. Various studies also show that the lower the people's education level is, the less learning incentive they will have for continuing education. On the contrary, the higher the people's education level is, the more opportunities they will get to satisfy their desire to learn. If such a pattern continues, there will be "polarization (of wealth)" in the area of knowledge. Polarization in the area of knowledge is going to aggravate polarization of wealth in the economic context.

2. Government lacking policy on continuing education

All along the Government has lacked an effective policy on developing continuing education. Even now some defects are still not given sufficient attention. For instance, adult evening schools directly run by the Education Department (ED) still remain at the stage of supplementary education, and the Government is quite out of touch with the social reality in its supervision, co-ordination or overall organization in respect of continuing education programmes developed by non-governmental organizations and institutions. A typical example is that the ED requires some communal organizations or institutions to register the venues provided for members to pursue studies or matters of interest as schools under the Education Ordinance. However, those venues all along are not schools. The rigid requirement that they be registered as schools has restricted them from organizing activities on Saturdays and Sundays, tantamount to wiping out adults' opportunities for after-work learning. As part of continuing education, employees retraining is often looked upon as an instant cure for unemployment. This, however, leads people to expect much of the system of retraining programmes. As a result, their failure to find jobs right after completing the programmes makes them lose confidence in the entire system.

3. Basic facilities for continuing education still leaving much to be desired

Hong Kong lacks a mechanism for the accreditation of academic qualifications and a qualification ladder. The current Hong Kong Council for Academic Accreditation (HKCAA) only offers professional opinions on the academic standards and qualifications of local and overseas degree programmes, with no uniform accreditation yardstick for programmes below degree level. Examinations offered by professional institutes are held by the institutes individually. So there is no co-ordination amongst them; nor is there mutual recognition. Consequently, the whole society is devoid of a well-formed system for self-learning. Programmes operated by various organizations and institutions are even more lacking in co-ordination; and more uniform syllabuses are also missing. As a result, the programmes suffer from a lot of duplication and tend to be in bits and pieces, thus giving rise to serious waste of resources.

Confronted with all these problems, we have not got a magic wand that can enable us to solve all the problems immediately with one shake. However, efforts made by other governments in building up life-long learning systems show that the role played by a government is, like the leading roles in films, not replaceable. In promoting the development of continuing education, the government must play a positive role. In addition to the Japanese example mentioned in my lobbying letter to Honourable Members, as a matter of fact, advanced western nations like the United States and Germany as well as neighbouring places like Singapore, mainland China and Taiwan, all have drawn up laws and specified policies as the basis for the development of continuing education, in addition to formulating specific practicable proposals, plans and measures for implementation.

According to the conclusions made by some scholars, in the educational reforms of the United States for the past few years, there are at least three policy developments that are related with life-long learning: Firstly, citizens' life-long learning is the target of the United States educational development. Among the six nation-wide educational targets put forward by President CLINTON in 1994, two are directly related with life-long learning, namely, that all United States schools should help their students make good use of their intelligence so they can grow into responsible citizens and continue to learn in the modern economic world; and that by the year 2000 all United States adults should attain a reasonable level of literacy and be equipped with essential knowledge and skill so as to embrace the arrival of the era of global economy. Secondly, a new system of learning is slowly replacing the traditional educational system. To make up for the deficiency of original educational institutions and programmes, the new system includes modern educational institutions and development of teaching curricula. Thirdly, traditional educational programmes and schools will step up co-operation with newly-established educational institutions so as to meet the demand for adult education. At the same time, the arrangements in respect of traditional educational programmes and institutions will undergo appropriate reforms and adjustments in order to dove-tail with programmes of new educational institutions so as to develop into an educational framework suitable for life-long learning, and render it possible for every person to switch between work and learning without limitation and have work and learning linked up closely and continuously. Last August, the United States further passed a Work Force Investment Act, more amply reflecting the directions for these policies.

Judging from the experience of other places in the world, we can see that developing continuing education is an important way to promote social progress. In the face of challenges of the 21st century, Hong Kong must speed up in developing a framework of life-long learning. To review the existing continuing education mechanism so as to formulate both short-term and long-term objectives and strategies for the development of continuing education, the SAR Government should, in our opinion, conduct a study on the establishment of a continuing education commission as soon as possible. At present, it is imperative for the Government to provide overall organization and co-ordination for the establishment of a unified and transparent mechanism for the accreditation of academic qualifications and to create a complete qualification ladder by way of developing multi-tier learning so that every person can pick his way through such a system and upgrade his qualifications step by step continuously.

On the other hand, the Government ought to set up a fund for the development of continuing education to support and assist organizations and institutions to provide programmes for compensatory academic qualifications, vocational retraining and overall human development, and encourage employers to increase investment in human resources. Besides, the Government should encourage people to actively pursue further studies for self-enrichment by promoting learning incentive schemes. It is my belief that, with government promotion, people will definitely respond positively under these measures. The zeal and expectations of non-governmental organizations and institutions are evident in the views presented by some of the organizations today. Only in a liberal and open learning environment can people's initiative to learn be galvanized. A learning-based community can only be developed from this.

Over the past year, Hong Kong has been under the attack of an unprecedented financial turmoil. The Government has actively adopted different measures to strengthen Hong Kong's economic foundation and enhance Hong Kong's economic competitiveness. However, we must bear in mind that human resources have always been our valuable assets and continuing education is like a shovel, with which we can unearth a buried glowing pearl that will bring radiant brilliance and glory to Hong Kong.

Madam President, fellow Members of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong are going to speak further on problems in the various areas of continuing education, experience of other places and some feasible measures.

With these remarks, I beg to move.

Mr TAM Yiu-chung moved the following motion:

"That, in order to enhance the competitiveness of Hong Kong people individually and as a community, this Council urges the Special Administrative Region Government to conduct a study on the establishment of a continuing education commission, to review the existing continuing education mechanism, to formulate both long-term and short-term objectives and strategies for the development of continuing education, to institute a transparent mechanism for the accreditation of academic qualifications as well as an integrated qualification ladder, to set up a fund for the development of continuing education, to support and assist organizations and institutions to provide a variety of learning programmes, to encourage employers to increase investment in human resources, and to promote learning incentive schemes to encourage people to actively pursue further studies, so as to create a liberal and open learning environment, motivate individuals to learn on their own initiative, and facilitate the development of Hong Kong into a learning-based community."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr TAM Yiu-chung as set out on the Agenda be passed. Council will now proceed to a debate. Will Members who wish to speak please raise their hands.

MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the promotion of "continuing education" and "life-long education" ought to be an established policy of the government of any advanced society. However, as we all know, the Hong Kong Government has all along ignored the promotion of "continuing education", without comprehensive policy or financial commitment.

In fact, just cast our eyes on the economic predicament that confronts Hong Kong today, the sharp rise in unemployment and the greater difficulty of workers with low education to find jobs. All these highlight the evil consequences arising from the Government's failure to promote continuing education over the years. Ever since the 1980s, when Hong Kong's economic structure began to change, we in the labour sector have again and again brought up the point that to raise the skill level of Hong Kong workers, Hong Kong must have long-term policies on human resources and training. However, the Government has all along used non-intervention in the free market as the pretext for inaction.

To take the retraining programme now in force as the Government's commitment to continuing education is to fool ourselves as well as others. To be honest, those who are well versed in history all know that the purpose of the Government in introducing the retraining programme in 1992 was to ease the strong objections raised by the workforce against imported labour. At that time, the Government refused to take up any financial commitment, just proposing that a sum of $400 from an imported worker's wages be set aside for setting up a retraining fund. Only after a struggle waged by the then Legislative Council did the Government write into the relevant legislation the provision that the Government may replenish the retraining fund. However, to date, the Government is still only prepared to inject funds into the retraining fund from time to time, instead of making recurrent financial commitment to retraining annually. Obviously, the Government is totally insincere in its continuing commitment to improving the people's education and skills level.

The experience of many nations shows that continuing education is a long-term task, in which the government's co-ordinating role is essential. For a comprehensive ongoing policy on continuing education, there are two policy principles that must be firmly established: Firstly, in the modern society, where knowledge and information change rapidly, universal life-long education should be taken as a key issue in government education and labour policies; and secondly, under the premise of universal life-long education, the government should still formulate measures for continuing education that are specific to and appropriate for different types of people. Only by so doing can one put to use what one has learned. To be specific, there are in my opinion at least three categories of people requiring different policies and measures from the Government. They include those people who are still in school, to whom should be provided more open study programmes; those employed in different fields, to whom should be provided an environment where they can upgrade their knowledge and skill levels; and, above all, workers with low levels of knowledge and skill, to whom should be provided comprehensive facilities for continuing education.

Hereunder I am going to dwell on measures to upgrade workers with low levels of education as I think this is the most serious problem confronting Hong Kong now.

Many middle-aged manufacturing workers already began to face high risk of unemployment even in the past decade or so, when economic growth was high. At a time when the economy is down and the unemployment rate high, the situation of middle-aged workers with low level of education is just too horrifying for us to visualize. During the debate on the review on Comprehensive Social Security Assistance a short while ago, fellow Members pointed out the importance of providing employment opportunities to workers with low level of education. I am of the view that if the Government does not face up to this issue, soon grave social risk arising from the high unemployment rate among middle-aged workers will grow.

The current retraining programme just suppresses the symptoms without curing the disease. On the one hand, the workers are not upgraded very much skillwise. On the other hand, the scheme does not offer long-term follow-up service on trainees' employment; it is just impossible to gauge the effect of the scheme. The Government should make a complete adjustment in policy direction to establish a comprehensive scheme to upgrade the education and skills of workers with low level of education, and, at the same time, offer long-term follow-up service and assistance regarding workers' employment. This is of utmost importance.

The policy co-ordinating role of the Government is very important in effectively ensuring effective upgrading of skills of those with low level of education as well as in making sure that they can rejoin the job market. In particular, the Government should actively lead and direct the way for the development of our economic structure, and draw up fitting policy on the training of human resources, instead of allowing the market to develop aimlessly.

Also, what is required to be done now in order to enable middle-aged workers with low level of education to rejoin the job market is for us to act immediately, instead of setting up a commission to conduct studies. Available for our reference is plenty of experience gained by foreign nations in helping workers with low level of education to upgrade their skills. The practices of various countries have one common feature, namely, the great importance of the government's leading role. Also, in every country the practice is that the government, employers and trade unions will jointly set up commissions to launch relevant policies and measures. This, I believe, is of referential value to Hong Kong.

Madam President, I so submit. Thank you.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is very meaningful that today Honourable colleagues can discuss together the issue of developing continuing education as continuing education has direct connection with most of us. For Hong Kong as a whole, such a development can above all improve the economic competitiveness of Hong Kong.

In fact in his policy address of 1998, the Chief Executive of the Special Administrative Region also made mention of the importance of this. With regard to this, the Chief Executive in his policy address remarked that the Open University plays a leading role in promoting life-long learning, and he also expressed his wish for other institutes to actively provide more continuing education programmes so as to train up more talents and bring benefits to the community. The Government will keep on making every effort to let those who want to learn have the chance to upgrade their skills. In the policy address debate that followed, Honourable colleagues also made mention of the importance of continuing education, urging the Government to provide working people with more opportunities of further studies. In response to comments made by Members in respect of the policy address, Mr Joseph WONG, the Secretary for Education and Manpower, merely reiterated his wish for the Open University and other institutes to actively provide programmes of continuing education so as to train up talents to meet the needs of economic development. Mr WONG made no further mention of the role that the Government should or can play. It seems that the Government has not got a more positive and specific strategy for the development of continuing education. The Government has only one wish, namely, the wish to materialize continuing education through different institutes and channels, which include the Open University, other institutes and institutions for adult education.

It is doubtless that the Government has made much effort to develop the Open University, and other post-secondary institutes have been running various programmes to meet different requirements of the working public. However, it can be noticed from the newspapers that many overseas educational institutes enroll local students in expensive distance learning courses, which reflects the fact that local people are very interested in those professional or degree courses. In addition to providing professional and degree courses, we must note that continuing education should cover courses in other areas. Surely, the Government all along has been running adults' programmes and evening classes; other types of programmes are also being offered by various organizations and educational institutions. However, many of these are just extension programmes or business classes, which might not be able to meet working people's requirements resulting from their urgent need for new knowledge and training because of the rapid changes in society. Because of questions about the teaching standard and academic standing, doubts are cast on the qualifications gained upon completion of those courses. So even though such types of courses are available, those who want to enroll tend to be hesitant.

The Government, therefore, is duty-bound to set long-term targets and specific policies in developing continuing education. It is not possible to persuade people to pursue life-long learning with the government will alone. Surely, life-long learning is meant for the improvement of one's competitiveness, and for one's future. It is entirely one's own choice. However, to a certain extent, the choice is investment in terms of time and money. In order to encourage people to go ahead with such a major investment, the Government ought to make every effort to provide an even more favourable environment as well as better conditions.

Apart from matching policies, the Government, as the largest local employer, should also take the lead by encouraging members of the Civil Service to more actively pursue life-long learning so that they can keep on improving themselves, meet ever-changing fresh challenges, and, thus bring benefits to the public. At the same time, the Government should encourage other employers to invest more in human resources so as to upgrade their own competitiveness. As just pointed out by me, life-long learning is a personal choice. So the Government should, by way of education, make students or the next generation understand that study and learning are not confined to schools or merely done for the sake of examination, and that they should advance as life progresses because we have got to make progress as time progresses.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, talents to be trained up in Hong Kong in the 21st century will have to survive the rapid changes and competition in the social, economic and technological aspects of the new era if they are to hold the ground. Education is no longer confined to traditional schools; it has to change over to life-long learning. To survive, Hong Kong must become a knowledge-based community.

The holder of one certificate is no longer a visa-holder accepted everywhere. The combination between traditional school education and life-long continuing education ought to be the mainstream of education in the future. At present, Hong Kong's continuing education still remains at the preliminary stage. The Vocational Training Council (VTC), the Employees Retraining Board (ERB), the extra-mural programmes of various universities, and the Open University (OUHK) all go their own ways, not to mention the many programmes of private and overseas universities. Such confusion must be addressed to by way of co-ordination.

I visited the OUHK some time ago. With 24 000 students, the OUHK, an important institute of continuing education in Hong Kong, has become the mainstream of university education for working people. However, government support for the OUHK is grossly inadequate. Starkly among its problems are: the need to borrow classrooms of nearby secondary schools on account of shortage of classrooms at the university; shortage of academic periodicals and books in the library; students not being allowed to use the libraries of the seven government-financed universities; and shortage of undergraduate research funds on account of the fact that the OUHK is not a University Grants Committee-funded institution.

In fact, compared with regular university education, continuing education is very cost effective. At present, the unit cost of a government-financed university is about $200,000 a year, but that of the OUHK is only $50,000, that is, merely one quarter of that of day-time university. Furthermore, the Government subsidizes 82% of the cost of each student in a day-time university, yet giving zero subsidy to each student of the OUHK, that is, not even a dime. It is obvious that continuing education really gets no support from the Government. A small sign tells much. All these inadequacies show that the Government, under the banner of self-financing, just leaves continuing education to fight for its survival or be self-reliant.

I have to point out that for Hong Kong to progress towards a knowledge-based city and maintain universal competitiveness, continuing education is indispensable. The Government should take up more active commitments. This should include bringing in for continuing education an overall plan and a mechanism for financial support. At present, the Government, as concession, only grants tax allowance to those pursuing further studies while working. Obviously, this is not an effective way of subsidizing, failing to motivate every person to pursue life-long learning. A famous education economist of the United States once proposed a subsidy scheme for continuing education, whereby every citizen may have a certain amount of continuing education subsidy throughout his life for him to pay for courses suitable for him in the form of vouchers to exercise his rights. Of course, at present it might not be possible to implement such a scheme fully here as it may be necessary for the Government to increase some taxes and expenses.

However, in the long run, the promotion of continuing education by way of such right-exercising vouchers merits our support. In fact, at present, subsidies granted by the Government for teachers to undergo training in information technology tend to show such a similar feature. Teachers are allowed to choose from qualified computer courses available in the market in accordance with their needs, with the bills being footed by the Government. However, government direction here is too obvious in respect of such kind of continuing education, one with a designated goal. While the beneficiaries of subsidization are very limited, the resultant benefits are not necessarily effective. It is still a far cry from the ideal of universal continuing education. So for continuing education we must look for a scheme that is highly flexible, very adaptable, capable of meeting the needs of every person, and learner-orientated. It should not be an institution-orientated subsidy scheme. A scheme featuring right-exercising vouchers will be a potential force promoting continuing education. The reason is that if you do not study, you forego your right as well as your subsidy. You can enjoy your right and subsidy only if you study further on. Give this a thought. Will anyone give up the government-launched home purchase scheme? If the answer is in the negative, that will be true of continuing education too, with continuing education really becoming a universal movement capable of benefiting all the people throughout their lives.

Madam President, I am in favour of forming a continuing education commission to formulate ways of subsidizing continuing education; to provide co-ordination for different educational and training institutions, and qualifications and standards of various qualification ladders; to establish an open and transparent information system so that students can get hold of information and prospects of the courses offered; to set up among institutions of continuing education a generally accepted credit system to facilitate life-long learning as well as trans-institutional learning; and to institute a resource-sharing system so that government-funded institutions of continuing education can use each other's resources, and become a consolidated academic body in place of a few academic sects, thus developing into one single academic body that is open, helpful and accommodating.

Madam President, I, as an educator, fully understand that learning knows no bounds. I recently attended the graduation ceremony of a community college for the aged. Though advanced in age, those who went up to the platform to receive their awards were in high spirits. The reason is that the desire to learn has enriched them mentally, and made them forget the approach of dotage. These old people should be models for Hong Kong's new generation. What is more, we are facing an era that is more complicated, tougher, and more volatile. No academic qualification, knowledge or experience can be held as a gospel that hardly changes. Our determination to strive for self-strengthening and our resolution to turn Hong Kong into a city of knowledge and vigour are our sole supports. Otherwise the era is going to eliminate us and we will feel sorry when it is already too late.

Madam President, I so sumbit.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President,

Life-long education

In the face of intense global competition, Hong Kong must develop continuing education if it is to remain a city with strong competitiveness in the long term.

The Liberal Party holds that the concept of "continuing education" should be further developed into life-long education, a process of self-learning and self-strengthening. That is to say, "One is never too old to learn".

Madam President, we are at the threshold of the 21st century. There is a driving force for globalization of economy. With information bursting out, technology developing at a high speed, and society undergoing rapid and drastic changes, every citizen has to keep on updating his knowledge, upgrading his academic qualifications, and improving his own competitiveness in order to meet the needs of work and career development. We now tell our students that in the past when 500 students graduated, there were 498 vacancies waiting for them, but now there might be only 50 vacancies for the same number of graduates to fight for. What is more, with the downturn of the economy now, the competition is no longer just amongst ourselves; the competition is often from neighbouring places or even all over the world. Not knowing when another economic restructuring will come, every person therefore has got to have the mentality that "One is never too old to learn." Furthermore, we must raise our alertness to our surroundings, and turn this into actions by earnestly learning new knowledge and new skills. If we insist on only applying to the present what we learned in the past and relying on "using the brain" alone, and make no effort to upgrade our abilities, then there will be only one result, namely, elimination by society.

Role of the Government

1. To encourage the spirit for universal learning

Apart from individuals, the Government can also play a leading role in promoting the development of life-long education. However, I am not in favour of relying totally on subsidy. It can be recalled that in the 1980s when the unemployment rates were high in the United States, the government offered a lot of monetary assistance to provide training programmes as well as granting many subsidies, including unemployment benefits. In the end, there was a big mess. Finally, there appeared in the Harlem the most famous self-inspired training programmes. Our Government can make use of different channels and approaches to promote the concept of life-long education so as to encourage people from all walks of life to learn new knowledge and new skills for self-upgrading.

2. To provide learning environment and learning facilities

On the other hand, to promote life-long education, the Government should provide useful resources for people to use in the pursuit of self-learning. Library is a current resource that can be made use of. In many countries that encourage life-long education, for instance, the United States and Singapore, libraries are being fully made use of. They turn a library into a self-learning centre, which, in addition to providing books, also serves as an Internet centre and a self-learning language centre. To facilitate people's learning and their use of the most up-to-date information technology, the Internet centre regularly offers the most recent applied information programmes. The language centre is stocked with all types of language-learning equipment for the use of people. The Government may consider setting up a similar self-learning centre at the Central Library, which is to be completed soon.

Mentality education

In a developed society, communication among individuals and the nurture of a healthy mind are just as important as skills. This is especially true of the attitude of learning. It is useless if there is not a persistent learning attitude, no matter how much resources are being made available. So, instead of keeping to training in skills only, the Government and private educational institutions should also stress and promote mentality education in every respect.

Quantity and quality of trainees

While promoting life-long education, we should also put emphasis on matching the number of trainees with the needs of the market and pay attention to the quality of our trainees. Here the Government can set up an assessment mechanism to ascertain trainees' qualifications. Do not let things be like our current oft-criticized training programmes. The whole policy on life-long education should be carried out to bring its educational targets into full play systematically and under proper supervision.

Conclusion

Education is a long journey. We ought to start and move towards our goal once it is set. Any delay can only set back the fruition of success. This piece of advice is made not just for the Government and our community organizations, but also for every citizen as citizens may be the ultimate victims.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion on behalf of the Liberal Party.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, as a result of rapid changes in the social and economic conditions, every person must incessantly upgrade himself and receive education continuously in order to survive the changes and make progress. So the development of continuing education is of paramount importance. Other countries first launched the concept of "life-long learning" decades ago. In this respect, Hong Kong lags far behind.

The unemployment rate in Hong Kong now stands at a point as high as 5.5%. The main cause is, of course, the poor economy. On the other hand, we can notice however that many among those unemployed are people with relatively low levels of education. They are therefore unable to adapt to the social and economic changes. Some of them might have already experienced restructuring once, but they lost their jobs again in the end. The Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, some time ago called upon those unemployed to continuously strive for self-strengthening in adversity and to enrich themselves by learning more knowledge while waiting for opportunities. On this we totally agree with him. However, the Government's current policy on continuing education makes most grassroots and unemployed persons run into many difficulties, even for those who are keen to pursue studies. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) holds that, in order to maintain and further develop Hong Kong's position as an international economic and financial hub, it is necessary to actively promote continuing education so as to always keep knowledge and cultural levels up-to-date.

In the past, the Government's attitude towards continuing education used to be of positive non-intervention, just as in the case of its attitude towards many other policy matters. In most cases, private institutions have the free hand to carry out development, with very limited government participation in course design, co-ordination or overall supervision.

Though the Government recently has made another injection of fund into Employees Retraining Board (ERB), many programmes offered by the ERB are short courses or courses on basic skills only. They are just like "instant noodle" in nature, often becoming avenues for those unemployed to earn meagre allowances and, consequently, failing in achieving the target of actually improving the individuals' knowledge or skills.

All these years, local tertiary institutions have been running extramural departments. In recent years, extramural departments have become independent of their universities, changing over to a self-financing mode of operation. As a result, tuition fees have gone up sharply, which turns away many of those who want to pursue studies. In 1989, the Government funded the establishment of the Open Learning Institute of Hong Kong, which was indeed a piece of good news to the working population. So in the first year, the enrolment numbered more than 60 000, an indication of Hong Kong people's keenness to receive university education.

However, the Open University (OUHK) has its limitations, which include the fact that textbooks and teaching materials are mainly in English; and the sharp increase in tuition fees consequential upon its assumption of a self-financing mode in 1994. With a 10-credit course costing more than $10,000 and an average student being required to pay $20,000 a year, the situation really constitutes a major obstacle to grassroots who want to receive higher education. Consequently, over the past few years most OUHK students have been those aged between 27 and 29 and holding positions of reasonably good incomes. There is indeed considerable difficulty for the jobless with relatively poor command of English and yet wishing to receive education more systematically. We therefore consider that in order to make it easier for members of the public to receive higher education, the OUHK should switch over to using Chinese as the medium of instruction and use mainly Chinese teaching materials.

In fact, if we refer to institutions in other countries similar to the OUHK, it can be noticed that their governments do give them different levels of subsidy. In Germany and France, distance-learning universities get full subsidies from the government. The Taiwan Government gives the National University on Air a 25% subsidy. As the Chief Executive has confirmed the importance of life-long education and recognized continuing education as investment in talents, it is indeed necessary to make definite commitments in the formulation of an overall policy as well as in resources.

As a matter of fact, many countries for years have been running television universities and universities on air, offering systematic university courses through TV or radio channels by using faculty members of various universities as cores of their faculties, and thus providing the public with opportunities to upgrade their academic or skill levels free of charge. That has indeed realized the targets of life-long education and given rise to an extensive zeal to learn in the society.

At present, the only avenue for one to enrol for formal and systematic long-distance university courses is to enrol in the OUHK. However, on account of the above-mentioned limitations, the concept of life-long education has not been popularized. To those unemployed, that is sheer fantasy. We therefore think that apart from increasing the financial assistance for the OUHK, the Government should at the same time actively consider the feasibility of running television university and conduct multimedia continuing education through the Internet or the Interactive Television so as to raise Hong Kong's educational level as a whole to meet the rapid and drastic changes in society and the job market.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in considering continuing education, I have a few points to make.

Firstly, I hoped that it is not intended mainly for those with high levels of education. It ought to be treated as an issue of continuing education for all people. Continuing education is of considerable importance to university graduates as well as to primary school leavers.

Secondly, I hope that in considering continuing education, we can refrain from viewing the matter solely from the angle of human resources. Of course, human resources constitute a key factor for consideration, yet we ought to consider the issue of improving the overall quality of the people as well. Sometimes we tend to put our emphasis on cost effectiveness, and that is perhaps a little too "money-minded". However, it is still necessary to promote the attitude for life-long learning.

The third point that I would like to bring up is that we should not assume that every person's education is from childhood to adolescence. Different persons have different stages of growth. So when one is young, one may not necessarily feel the need for education or have the desire to go for it. Often it is not until a person becomes a grown-up or in his middle age or old age does he come to realize the need to receive basic education.

The fourth point that I would like to bring up is that we should not assume that the education we receive before our twenties is good enough for us to use throughout our lives. Madam President, I think all of us here will still be alive after today. Based on the calculation of conditional probability, a person's life expectancy is over 76 in the case of man and over 81 in the case of woman. It is obvious that we study for 10-odd years, but have to live for seven or eight decades. Empirical knowledge gained over a period of 10-odd years is insufficient to last us through six or seven decades. Therefore, we have to keep on updating our knowledge. Furthermore, what we learned from books 20 years ago is beginning to fade into disuse today, but in another 10 years, the knowledge learned from books 10 years earlier may also become useless. With such a change likely to come faster and faster, continuing education is thus very important as it can enable the whole society to be in a better position to deal with rapid global changes.

The fifth point is one which has already been mentioned in the preceding motion debate, especially with regard to the issue of adult education. What I want to bring up in particular is day-time adult education. The reason is that it has long been assumed that basic education is from childhood to adolescence and, therefore, most basic programmes of adult education are offered in the evening. However, as a matter of fact, many people can avail themselves of adult education only during the day. These include people engaging in domestic work, ranging from recipients of CSSA to housewives or "house husbands" of single- or two-parent families. They have time to receive education only during the day. However, at present programmes of adult education are all run in the evening. Their chance to receive education is, therefore, close to zero.

The sixth point that I would like to raise is already mentioned by Mr TAM Yiu-chung, namely, a system of accreditation for academic qualifications. Continuing education embraces different meanings, a very significant one of which is the continuation of education of the preceding stage for further education. If progress is step by step, it is necessary to have clear accreditation of academic qualifications at every stage. This point is very important. The current problem is that though some of our open examinations do have level-by-level yardsticks, they are not clear enough. For instance, there are gaps in between the primary school stage, Form 3, Form 5 and Form 7, and there is not an established system for the accreditation of language standards. I am of the view that, to help these people to progress step by step, the Government should seriously consider setting up a more complete system of accreditation for academic qualifications.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the original motion.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I remember that when the Open Learning Institute of Hong Kong (OLI) first got started, many people lined up to get enrolled. The scene, a very bustling one, reflected the point that Hong Kong people, especially those with Form 5 education, were very keen to receive continuing education. I hope that the Government will acknowledge this fact.

However, the enrolment has not been going up over the past few years following the OLI's changeover to the Open University (OUHK). The reason is not that the fever is over and people no longer want to pursue further studies. In fact that is because many people have to work during the day and attend to other matters in the evening, therefore finding it too much a burden both mentally and financially. As a result, fewer and fewer people seek enrolment. So, to develop continuing education, it is imperative that other social factors are also taken into consideration. To consider merely one aspect, for example, just the number of enrolment, is not enough.

In fact, as already mentioned by several Honourable Members, modern educational theories have affirmed the point that it is the basic right of every person in the community to pursue life-long learning. Furthermore, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, the Chief Executive, was just quoted by Honourable colleagues as saying that every person should have the concept of continuing education. We therefore ought to take various approaches to help further develop continuing education.

Today, our motion is on how to develop continuing education. Here, I want to put in some additional information for Members' consideration. I think the first portion of the original motion is very important. The motion takes this opening which reads "in order to enhance the competitiveness of Hong Kong people individually and as a community" to be the guideline for the development of continuing education. This seems to give the aim of education too narrow a definition.

The aim of education is not just for the competitiveness of people as individuals or the community as a whole. It should embrace many aspects. In addition to improving individuals' abilities, there are a few other aspects worthy of our attention. They include the enhancement of intelligence, that is, the powers of analysis, expression, reasoning and determination. What is more, there is the function of nurturing morality and a sense of value, which is to better the personality and behaviour of those educated and boost their sense of responsibility. Moreover, the improvement in the areas of culture, arts and physique should also not be ignored.

I very much worry that if we put emphasis solely on improving competitiveness in developing continuing education, we might become utilitarian to tilt programmes on the side of practical subjects. In fact, I feel that the development of continuing education in Hong Kong in recent years has somewhat gone in such a direction. Why? I believe that Hong Kong is quite a pragmatic society. Many people think that if what they learn is useless, then it is advisable not to learn it at all. However, if in promoting continuing education, our society ─ especially the Government ─ does also care for other developments in addition to striving for just the enhancement of competitiveness of individuals or that of the community as a whole, then I believe some of us may be directed to giving some thought to the question of why we have to receive continuing education.

The importance of continuing education lies in the aspiration to acquire knowledge in different areas for the purpose of enhancing intelligence in order to, whenever or wherever appropriate, access, grasp, or absorb new knowledge, new standards and the developments of other matters. So, the development of continuing education should, like that of our primary and secondary school education, put stress on general education instead of developing along a single track. In order that those in the community can help each other to develop, we ought to improve our self-learning ability and take in knowledge incessantly.

Apart from practical subjects, there are the humanities. In my opinion, the merit of the humanities is that they do let us know how to respect ourselves and other people, how to identify oneself with the community and the country, and how to exercise our civic rights and discharge our civic obligations. We are talking about "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong" and "a high degree of autonomy". Under such a premise, we should attach more importance to developments in this respect. So, if the Government is to set up an education commission as proposed by Mr TAM Yiu-chung, I hope that the commission can have a broader vision and be more forward-looking so that the development of continuing education will not centre solely on economic development but rather cater for more social developments too.

Furthermore, as just pointed out by Honourable colleagues, it is most imperative that we must not let the issue boil down to sheer empty talk because it is useless. Practical actions must be taken. The public often criticizes the Government for lack of orientation and investment in continuing education. I hope that the Government can change its old attitude after this evening, providing funds as support and implementing some proper educational policies while paying due attention to continuing education.

Madam President, I so submit.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the 1996 Final Report of the UNESCO International Committee for 21st century education, the system of continuing education is cited as the key to the 21st century Doorway of Brightness. The importance of continuing education is thus evident.

In recent years, the Government has indeed put in more efforts to develop continuing education, for example, injecting fresh fund into the Employees Retraining Board (ERB), and drawing up plans to set objective yardsticks for ERB and Vocational Training Council (VTC) programmes to measure trainees' skills. However, with regard to the educational reform leading to the 21st century, the Government still cannot free itself from the archaic mode of thinking of the last few decades. Over the past 30 years, while "life-long education" has grown by leaps and bounds in the international community, the Hong Kong Government has so far not fully accepted the concept of "life-long education", not to mention setting out to establish a system of life-long education that embodies modern meanings.

Thus I think that we, by the opportunity of Mr TAM's motion, should make a strong representation to urge the Government to review the question concerning Hong Kong's "life-long education" and attach due importance to it.

Madam President, because of the rapid growth and incessant updating of technology and its being quickly put to use in production and daily life, plus the fact that our living environment is forever changing, what a person learns at school can no longer meet the requirements of his whole life. Only with non-stop learning, that is, life-long learning, can a person ensure his survival. In other words, with the progress in technology, and the arrival of a knowledge-based economy, there comes a requirement for people to change their old concepts of education, according to which knowledge learned at school during adolescence is good enough for the whole life. As pointed out by Paul LENGRAND, a pioneer of continuing education and life-long education, the old educational system divides man's life into two halves, namely, the first half which is for learning, and the second for work. This is not sensible from the viewpoint of today. Life-long education is to provide every member of society with opportunity to learn when he has such a need. Life-long education advocates that education should go through every stage of a person's life instead of being confined to adolescence. Also one should not be confined to the school, and education should be extended to include the family and society so as to form a so-called "learning-based society" in which learning is for every person, every place and every moment. To pursue learning in a "learning-based society" is a self-initiated innovative lifestyle. It is fun-filled. With so many opportunities to turn failure into success through hard learning, a person will never have to go through the torture of permanent defeat consequential upon failure in one examination.

Madam President, life-long education or continuing education is a big topic. Life-long education is a basic principle for educational reform. The old educational system is to be reformed for the establishment of a new system of life-long education under that basic principle. I hope that the Special Administrative Region Government, in reviewing Hong Kong's life-long education, will not again play down a big issue or treat a segment as the whole, for example, equating adult education or in-service training with life-long education. In fact, the system of life-long education should cover all aspects of educational work, school education being no exception here. The mission of school education, therefore, has to be adjusted. School is not just a place to impart knowledge. It has a more important duty of fostering students' self-learning ability so that they can continuously enrich themselves mentally and update their knowledge after leaving school. The policy address of last October places continuing education under the subject of tertiary education, instead of putting it under the general topic on nurturing talents. This is debatable. Similarly, Mr TAM suggested forming a continuing education commission. Will its role duplicate that of the Education Commission? I think this warrants consideration. In my opinion, the review and implementation of life-long education should be the duties of the Education Commission.

Life-long education should, fundamentally, cover secondary school education or its equivalent. With 40% of the local workforce educated only up to Form 3 or lower levels, the development of continuing education should not put emphasis solely on the tertiary level.

Madam President, to make good use of social resources and facilities to promote life-long education, I suggest that post-secondary colleges, training institutes, and the two Municipal Councils consider granting reasonably good access to their resources and facilities, for instance, making available to those pursuing studies their libraries, electronic library materials, classrooms, study rooms, and even other recreational facilities.

Madam President, finally I wish to talk about the question of quality control in respect of the development of continuing education. As the Government has not been giving sufficient attention to continuing education, some unhealthy phenomena have developed. At present, continuing education is almost totally market-orientated. Mixed together are profit-making and non-profit-making courses. Some of these courses try to pass fish eyes for pearls, and even feature among them fierce commercial competition. Diploma mills doing business under the banner of developing continuing education are also present. These unhealthy phenomena not only constitute drains on social resources, wasting people's time and money, but also endanger Hong Kong's reputation in the area of education, and suffocate the real concept of life-long education intended for implementation in Hong Kong. So we must pay attention to the market of continuing education so as not to let the bad mix with the good in our continuing education. Mr TAM's motion suggests instituting a transparent mechanism for the accreditation of academic qualifications as well as an integrated qualification ladder. On this, he has my strong support. I also urge the Government to step up efforts to mobilize the academic sector to launch a systematic research on life-long education, and to make reference to international experience and learn from nations with relatively well-developed life-long education, such as Japan and Finland, in order to understand the course taken and the actual progress made by the international community in their research on life-long education. The aim is to promote in Hong Kong life-long education that is comprehensive and of high quality.

I so submit in support of Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, all along there has not been a strong quest for after-work learning among Hong Kong people. Although there are over 400 public and private institutes for adult education in Hong Kong, those who are keen to pursue further studies are few. According to the statistics, in 1996 some 93 000 adults were enrolled in courses of adult education, representing just about 3% of the total workforce. Though the figure climbed to 100 000 in 1997, it is still very low in comparison with many Western countries, where some 30% to 40% of their people are enrolled annually.

Although Hong Kong people all along have not been keen on pursuing after-work studies, the situation has changed now. Ever since the outbreak of the financial turmoil in Asia last year, Hong Kong's economy has been confronting a bitter winter. With the unemployment rate ever on the increase, young fresh graduates have had much difficulty in finding employment whilst most of those who are working have been experiencing the pain of salary cuts, if not the hardship of layoff. On the other hand, following Hong Kong's abolition of the restriction on importing mainlanders, people in Hong Kong must also face the challenge from elites from the Mainland. Most people are beginning to understand that they can no longer hold the ground in society unless they seek to upgrade or better themselves. As a matter of fact, over the last six months, there has been an obvious upsurge in the number of people pursuing further studies. This year's Open University enrolment shows an increase of about 30% over that of last year.

Many Western nations came to face the problem of economic readjustment far earlier than Hong Kong did. For years they have been actively promoting the concepts of "continuing education" and "life-long education", on the one hand offering learning opportunities to people of different ages and various educational levels, and on the other actively promoting the general mood for these concepts. However, in the past the Hong Kong British Government and Hong Kong people did not hold such a viewpoint. The Government has also lacked a long-term policy. As a result, most of those who pursue further studies only do so for their own interests, with little self-upgrading to speak of. The current economic downturn, I believe, has given the Government a good opportunity to develop continuing education actively so as to upgrade local human resources and lay the foundation for the development of value-added industries.

To actively develop continuing education, the Government should, in my opinion, work harder on the following aspects:

1. The Government must, as soon as possible, review the current mechanism of continuing education and draw up a specific policy on continuing education. The Government should address the different needs of adults and youngsters so as to provide them with different opportunities to upgrade their abilities. In particular, the Government should, for those who are older and less well-educated, design a set of training programmes that can meet the requirements of employers. At the same time, to monitor the overall operation of adult education, the Government may consider setting up an advisory committee to provide professional advice.

2. The Government should review together with the Education Department the current mechanism and formulate a set of standardized yardsticks for adult education so that all the programmes can have generally accepted examination systems and certificates for general compliance. In addition, to stop those unqualified from teaching and to forestall frauds for the purpose of maintaining teaching standards, the Government should make every effort to monitor the operation of private institutions.

3. As the economy is now down, even those who want to pursue further studies might have to turn back because of financial difficulty. I think the Government should provide more incentives, on the one hand giving consideration to the idea of setting up a fund for the development of continuing education to help people pursue studies with low-interest loans, and on the other making provision in this year's budget to increase the $20,000-a-year tax allowance for further studies so as to encourage people to study further.

4. Following another restructuring of the Hong Kong economy, the concept that "one skill in hand is good enough for the whole life" is already outdated. It is particularly so because Hong Kong is bent on becoming the Asian Pacific information technology centre as well as a centre of innovative industry. So the elites in Hong Kong must progress as time progresses. However, at present many people, including teachers, lawyers, doctors and even senior government officials, do not know very much about information technology. Many of them are even "computer illiterate". To maintain local professionals' competitiveness, the Government should make real efforts to encourage them to actively pursue further studies.

To maintain Hong Kong's position as the Asian Pacific financial hub and to take the lead in information technology industry, the Government must make good use of this period of economic readjustment to actively develop continuing education in order to increase the value of all the people in Hong Kong. Only with this can Hong Kong have a brighter future.

Madam President, I so submit in support of Mr TAM's motion.

MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to talk about the relationship between continuing education and free economy so as to say something about how to use the concepts of free economy to develop continuing education. Every social project is bound to involve government resources. There are but a few ways in which the allocation of government resources is effected. First, it can be effected by way of tax concession. The other is, as just mentioned by Miss CHOY So-yuk, by way of low-interest loans. The third is by way of direct subsidy, as mentioned by Mr TAM Yiu-chung here in respect of subsidies for institutions to run programmes.

I wish to put forward the fourth way. In fact it has just been brought up by Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong. This is also subsidy. However, the subsidy is not for institutions, but for individuals ─ persons who pursue studies. Such a concept is very simple. Instead of setting up many institutes, allocating funds to these institutes, and requiring the institutes to design various programmes for their students, I have this new method for the Government to grant a limited study allowance to each adult throughout his life. According to this concept, to pursue studies is his so-called right. He will choose the school and courses. When making choices of courses, he ought to understand that, on account of the limitation of resources, he only gets a certain amount of money for studies in his whole life. Well aware that the chance might slip by if a wrong choice is made, he will exercise great care in making his choice. Under such a premise, those pursuing studies will take care to find out what courses are suitable for them, how these courses can help their future employment upon completion, how they can upgrade their potentials, and how they can broaden their employment prospects. All these are very important.

Currently, programmes developed by the Open University and other tertiary institutions are all run on a cost-recovery basis. The Government encourages this form of education, and only grants tax concession or tax rebate to those who study by waiving part of their tuition fees as tax deduction upon completion of their courses. This practice was once used in the United States. Because of the need to look after veterans, the United States adopted such a practice to finance veterans pursuing studies. Surely, such a scheme allowed more time. Results in the United States show that following the implementation of the scheme, the percentage of blacks availing themselves of the scheme exceeded that of the whites by 9% even though according to traditional demographic ratios, whites tend to outnumber blacks in getting education. It is noted that the scheme did encourage some of those people who used to ignore planning, education or studies to change. Government review after the implementation of the scheme showed that thenceforth the burden of providing care for the blacks (I am not a racist) in respect of retirement or social problems, for example, was greatly relieved.

On the whole, I do respect and support what Honourable colleagues have said about the concept of continuing education. However, there is one point which is even more important, that is, we should consider adopting a new mode, one that enables the users ─ people wishing to pursue studies ─ to make their choices. Of course, I support what Mr TAM said today. His whole concept is the need to stress on continuing education. But part of the motion reads: "to support and assist organizations and institutions to provide a variety of learning programmes". In that, those organizers still lead the way. I do support orientation by institutions. With regard to the development of continuing education, I do not differ from him in terms of concept. In fact I very much support the idea of continuing education. However, the question is how to boost competition among institutions. Programmes run by a certain institution can be very forward-looking, very ambitious, but not practical. Students will not be able to get employment upon completion of the programmes. That is to say, the choice does not lie with users. Then, the right to choose is still with the organizers. In particular, if more funds are made available to those institutions, then, to say more specifically, only faculty members of those tertiary institutions will be "fattened". The reason is that as they get more opportunities to run courses, they also get more opportunities to earn money, but they may not offer learning opportunities to meet the needs of those who want to learn. With that, the whole concept is changed.

Of course, the implementation of any scheme, this special scheme in particular, requires government resources. At present, the Government subsidizes tertiary education as well as primary and secondary education. This is perfectly fine and has the support of everybody. The point is whether or not it is possible to bring in some mechanism of competition in our attempt to make a breakthrough in respect of the concept of subsidizing adult education or continuing education. There is another point that I want to stress. The grant of subsidies by the Government to tertiary institutions or semi-official organizations for the running of courses may have suffocating effect on the development of some so-called training programmes, also described as the training industry, run by some private institutions. The reason is that the cost for such government-subsidized semi-official organizations to run courses is definitely lower than that of private institutions. Take an institution subsidized by the Government up to 50% as an example. It might charge $5,000 for a course on foreign exchange trading. Yet for a similar course run by a private institution, the charge might be $8,000. Surely, students will enrol for courses run by semi-official organizations. Then it is going to be very difficult to breed a so-called training profession or a profession of similar nature. Users or students will exchange information among themselves. They will flock to places where they know courses are better run. As a result, it may be possible for this so-called training profession to breed and grow. However, if the susidies go only to some official or semi-official institutions, the growth of a training profession might be suffocated.

If the Government is indeed determined to put in fresh resources to develop continuing education, new methods will have to be sought to find out, in the first place, the means to let users actually choose courses that they need; and, in the second place, the ways to breed in Hong Kong some new local professions, including the training profession, on account of the whole concept. Hong Kong has always been knowledge-based. We can train up talents in many areas. Training can be an export industry. At present, many Hong Kong people are enrolled in courses imported into Hong Kong from the United States or Canada. Here in Hong Kong we should also develop along this line.

I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, today I am going to discuss mainly the role played by the Government in continuing education.

I agree with Mr TAM Yiu-chung's view that the Government's attitude towards continuing education has always been one of "positive non-intervention", which makes people feel that continuing education does not appear to be part of the Government's policies. As a matter of fact, when compared with the Mainland or developed countries with regard to policy, funding and the general mood in society in respect of continuing education, Hong Kong is totally out of shape.

Now on policy. The United States in 1976 enacted the Life-long Learning Act. In 1990 the Japanese Government passed the Law on Revival of Life-long Learning. In the case of China, adult education is co-ordinated by the Department of Adult Education under the State Education Commission, and ranks together with the three pillars of China's educational structure, which are basic education, tertiary education and vocational education. On the contrary, in Hong Kong continuing education has all along been looked upon by the Government as "peripheral service", an item excluded from mainstream education and taking up merely 0.6% of the overall budget of the Education Department, a miserable figure when compared with the resources made available to formal education.

Talking about adult education, many people will probably bring back to their memory evening middle schools. As a matter of fact, in the 1950s and 1960s when the education level in Hong Kong was generally not high, and middle school graduates who managed to get a "cert (certificate)" probably did not have to worry about livelihood, adult education primarily set its target on running evening middle schools. It was not until 1991 did the Education Department make the announcement of reducing the number of government evening middle schools. In fact, "second chance education" is the minimum required under continuing education.

After the introduction of nine-year free education in Hong Kong in the 1970s, the demand for evening middle schools dropped. Continuing education also underwent "restructuring", taking a course of development featuring diversification. In recent years, continuing education has developed two new trends: first, those who pursue further studies are working for higher academic qualifications, for example, Master's degree, doctorate, or a second, a third and even a fourth degree; second, more advanced technological knowledge is being acquired so as to improve competitiveness.

Madam President, I think there are three factors compelling the Government to adopt new measures for continuing education:

Firstly, as the 21st century unfolds, the world is progressing in the direction of "a knowledge-based economic system". The concept that "knowledge is power" gains ground again.

Secondly, some people believe that in the wake of the financial turmoil, the evil practice of gaining wealth by means of speculation is over. Those in possession of professional knowledge in different areas will return to their own positions to focus on what they are good at. This is going to place stronger demand on continuing education.

On the other hand, people's ability to deal with crisis when engulfed in the financial turmoil has proved to be poor. Some people blame that on the failure to develop continuing education in the past. Had there been a general mood in favour of the pursuit of further studies in Hong Kong, and had the people equipped themselves for bad times while enjoying good days, they would not have been so helpless when the storm came. It is now time to draw a lesson from a bitter experience!

Thirdly, knowledge grows more abundant as it accumulates. It is no longer possible for schools to teach their students, within nine years, 12 years or 15 years, all the skills needed later on to earn their daily bread. So the focus of school education should be on basic knowledge and the cultivation of students' ability to pursue self-studies later. Life-long learning is a must.

On account of all the changes, there is an urgent need for a well-planned development of continuing education. Perhaps the Government might argue that the Open University of Hong Kong (OUHK) is already a very good avenue for people to pursue further studies. However, I have to point out that what the OUHK offers are degree courses. Then how about sub-degree courses?

Perhaps the Government might also argue that for the after-care of economic restructuring or the aftermath of the financial turmoil, there are the employees retraining programmes. I should point out that employees retraining programmes can only suppress the symptoms without curing the illness. They are passively tailored to cope with vacancies in the market. In the long run, Hong Kong must set distinct targets for training talents, and the Government ought to develop continuing education in a well-planned manner.

At present, the question is how and to what extent the Government should be involved.

Basically continuing education has all along been run by the private sector of their own accord. The merit lies in the fact that the private sector is more sensitive to market demands and quicker in response. On the other hand, we can see that in those government offices responsible for educational matters, there are few experts who know about continuing education. So, if the Government is suddenly required to take up totally or almost totally the work of developing continuing education with the limited manpower and financial resources currently available, it can probably only achieve very little at great cost, and the existing resources of the private sector will then be wasted.

A possible way is for the Government to set up a continuing education panel in conjunction with representatives from relevant sectors to delineate the division of labour between the Government and the private sector. As once pointed out by the Hong Kong Federation of Education Workers, the Government has all along lacked an advisory body responsible for policy co-ordination in respect of adult education. We suggest that the Government should establish a select committee on adult education with participation from the central government. This is to enable adult education in Hong Kong to develop properly under central co-ordination so that it can be more in line with the needs of the community, with guarantee for quality teaching at the same time.

Finally, the development of continuing education is a major global trend. In order that Hong Kong can maintain its competitiveness in the days to come, the Government must promote the development of continuing education and create in society an atmosphere in favour of further studies.

Madam President, I so submit in support of the motion.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I rise to support Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion.

Today I am not going to bring up any special new idea, wishing only to take this opportunity to share with Members a set of mechanism for continuing specialist education for the medical profession. I hope that what I am going to say can be useful reference.

The medical profession has all along been promoting continuing education. There are two reasons for this. In the first place, it is hoped that every serving member of the profession can maintain an appropriate sense of value in respect of science and practice in medicine. In the second place, medical science progresses by leaps and bounds incessantly. Had there been no continuing education, we would have been practising with knowledge learned decades ago. This is most unfair to our patients.

Our continuing education is compulsory. In other words, every member of the medical profession must go through and receive continuing education. We adopt a point-scoring system. A specialist has got to gain enough points within a certain period of time, otherwise he will be removed from the list of specialists.

Following the establishment of the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine and the recent institution of specialist registration, the system was first brought into Hong Kong. A doctor must earn 90 points within three years in order to continue to practise as a specialist. Self-study is one of the ways to get the 90 points; so is classroom study. An even better way is participation in international conferences; so is attending demonstrations. Anyway, to remain as a specialist, it is necessary for a practitioner to acquire the required points within three years, otherwise his name will be removed from the register of specialists. If a person continues to claim to be a specialist after being so deregistered, he will be subject to disciplinary actions.

As just mentioned by some Honourable Members, we have been taking all these troubles entirely of our own accord as professionals. The Government has been giving us no financial support whatsoever, not even adequate commitment in principle to give financial support. It has always been my hope that the Government can do two things to help the development of continuing professional education: First, as mentioned by several fellow Members, can the Government consider giving encouragement by way of tax allowances to those going abroad to attend conferences or any conferences beneficial to continuing education? Second, can the Government offer resources to help organizations that hold such functions, such as the institutes that organize talks on specialty topics? In my opinion, the Government absolutely should consider these suggestions, otherwise our continuing education as a whole cannot stay on.

Madam President, what I say today is primarily meant to let Honourable colleagues know that such a situation exists. That is to say, every doctor who is consulted by patients is not practising with knowledge gained decades ago. Each of us incessantly seeks improvement in the area of science in order to serve the public.

MR CHAN KWOK-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the past 10-odd years, Hong Kong has gone through a stage of booming bubble economy, a time of "easy money". The driving force for the quest of learning has been greatly weakened. With regard to the general atmosphere of learning, among those in schools to that of those already working, Hong Kong people can hardly "catch up" with the people in mainland China or Taiwan. What is more, in the area of continuing education, the Government has shown no clear concept or any guiding principle. Institutions offering continuing education all go their own way. There is neither any mechanism for co-ordination, nor a driving force for continuing education.

At present there are quite a few institutions offering continuing education. For instance, every university is offering continuing education programmes, most of which cover academic or professional studies. However, as trade unionists, we are more concerned with continuing education and training in connection with jobs, technology and skills. It is especially so now as the development of technology incessantly progresses by leaps and bounds. For working people striving for better job performance, the incessant updating of knowledge and of skills are indeed regarded as a matter of course.

Among government-sponsored institutions for vocational and skills training are the Vocational Training Council (VTC), technical colleges, technical institutes, and the Hong Kong Productivity Council (HKPC). In addition to providing pre-vocational training, they also offer a variety of in-service studies and training courses. Furthermore, the Government set up the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) to provide job-transfer training to workers eliminated from the manufacturing industry on account of its shrinkage. However, the Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) had pointed out as early as 1996 that it was necessary to review and reorganize these institutions as there was a waste of resources on account of unclear division of duties and duplication of roles among them.

Last year in his second policy address, the Chief Executive proposed to combine the two technical colleges and seven technical institutes of the VTC into one single institution by the year 2002. This is the first step for reorganizing in-service studies and skills training. A review of the operation of the ERB and that of the co-ordination of the VTC also should not be ignored. In the past, the ERB was not training-orientated, but was job-placement-orientated. Running short courses with limitations on age, they could not successfully train people in special skills. And there was not any accreditation of qualifications upon the completion of courses. Now the ERB has put forward fresh suggestions to improve old training methods. To give trainees opportunities for further studies, the FTU has already suggested that trainees graduating from retraining courses be given academic accreditation for VTC admission.

As a matter of fact, the problem is not just with ERB courses. Hong Kong itself has not got a comprehensive set of mechanism for assessment and evaluation of techniques and skills. At present only the skills of a few trades are subject to assessment. For instance, electrical technicians have to take skill test in order that the safety of maintenance work carried out by electrical technicians can be assured. However, the "safety factor" is merely one of the reasons for skill assessment. And skill assessment has more important functions:

(1) to assess the standards of technical training and vocational education of individual members of the trades; and

(2) to help establish an accreditation system for trade skills to protect the job opportunities of workers.

Let us take the construction industry as an example. The said trade has now started skill assessment to accredit the qualification of workers' techniques, which is bound to give a clear guide on future manpower requirements.

The Government plans to upgrade the VTC and let the Council be responsible for the qualification assessment of its own courses and those of the ERB. It is probably necessary to refer to the assessment mechanism of other places. I recently browse the web page of Taiwan's vocational training council and noticed that the said council, in additon to providing vocational training, has been offering annual "skill assessment tests" since 1973. By now, there are tests for 199 trades, which, covering a wide scope, include cement work of the construction industry, carpentry, beauty service, hair-dressing, and dim sum making of the food industry. One who passes a skill assessment is given qualification equivalent to that of a graduate from trades school. Tests assess candidates' skill levels, and ensure that they can enjoy legal status and protection. This merits our reference.

Turning now to the source of funding for continuing education. At present it varies from institution to institution. The VTC and the Productivity Council are given provisions by the Government annually. The funding for the ERB is most unreliable; fresh funds are pumped in by the Government at irregular intervals. Job-transfer training and retraining are not just momentary needs. As society incessantly changes, training of manpower must follow closely. Previously Hong Kong's economic structure was dominated by labour-intensive industries. After about 10 years, the economic structure of Hong Kong changed into one dominated by financial services, the property market and the service industry. The fact that manpower supply is out of step with market demand is exactly a situation resulting from continuing education and job-transfer training being neglected in the past years. The Chief Executive proposed to lead Hong Kong into the new millennium with innovation and technology. To progress in the direction of high technology and high value-added, every trade must be supplied with technical staff and supporting staff of all levels. The question as to how to retrain the existing workforce so as to meet future market needs and prevent them from being eliminated by society is going to be a key issue. So, job-transfer training and retraining are not meant merely to meet momentary needs, but do require reliable resources before there can be long-term planning and training. To effectively support continuing education, in-service training and job-transfer training, the Government ought to set up a fund for continuing education.

Madam President, I so submit in support of Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion. Thank you.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, with the introduction of nine-year compulsory free education in 1979, students in Hong Kong generally can be educated up to Form 3. However, Hong Kong has all along been weak in the areas of in-service training and continuing education. In the 1980s and earlier on, when Hong Kong's main economic activities were dependent on labour-intensive industries, workers often had to work more than 10 hours a day and, therefore, could not spare time to pursue studies to upgrade their skills or knowledge. By now, Hong Kong's economic structure has already undergone total changes. Yet the Government will not and cannot do anything for continuing education. It can be said that on the promotion of continuing learning, the Government is totally futile. The utilization of manpower resources in Hong Kong is in a passive state.

Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion is to remind the Government, inter alia, that, to prevent Hong Kong workers' competitiveness from being weakened, the Government should incessantly provide workers with opportunities to receive education so as to ensure that their skills and knowledge will not be eliminated by, or divorced from, society. When Hong Kong underwent economic restructuring in the past, the manufacturing industry failed to get upgraded or rejuvenated. As a result, investors relocated their production lines elsewhere, thus putting many manufacturing workers out of work in the process of elimination. Had the Government adopted a comprehensive and forward-looking view for the matter, and actively made preparation for the forthcoming local manpower market, it would not have been necessary now to set up the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) in a hurry to help workers change jobs. Madam President, I have to add that although the retraining programmes still leave room for improvement, I do acknowledge the need to set up the ERB.

As noted by the Chief Executive in his policy address and agreed by the Special Administrative Region Government that Hong Kong is actually included in a knowledge-based global economic entity, it is proposed to upgrade local productivity and competitiveness with innovation and technology. The same view should apply to the co-ordination and training of manpower. Therefore, the Government should actively look into the implications of future trends of economic development on local manpower demand so as to train up the talents required.

As things incessantly change with the passage of time, people must keep on learning and never stop studying in order to maintain their competitiveness. As knowledge never remains unchanged for long, continuing education is a must in society. According to the international trend of educational development in recent years, adult education is beginning to receive attention. That is in the correct direction. Developed countries like the United States and Japan are vigorously promoting life-long education. Singapore even provides workers with five-year study programmes so as to upgrade their competitiveness. Hong Kong should not fall behind others. Continuing education is the course that has to be taken in order to improve local workers' competitiveness.

Hong Kong has a workforce of 3.2 million, of whom 40% have not been educated beyond lower secondary level. In the long run, they will be eliminated as a result of the development of innovations and technology. Next will be the many secondary school graduates with no chance to receive tertiary education. It is most likely that they, with limited knowledge, cannot handle the blows generated by the rapid economic and information technology developments of the future.

Madam President, it is apparent that many people in the community are in need of training and continuing education. Therefore, in order to give them opportunities to pursue further studies, the Government ought to set up a Continuing Education Fund and encourage employers to stress more on and invest heavier in manpower resources. To encourage people to pursue self-learning and further studies, the Government should also promote learning incentive schemes so as to enable Hong Kong to become a society supportive of studies, and preclude the emergence of a fault in the area of knowledge in Hong Kong, a situation pernicious to our future economic development and employment.

Madam President, I so submit in support of the motion. Thank you.

MR HUI CHEUNG-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, like many of my friends, I have the feeling that Hong Kong people are full of vitality, optimistic and "willing to fight to the very end" at work. Over the past 10 years, because of the bubble economy, many people have not been doing regular jobs, devoting their attention only to speculation in real property and stocks for a living. However, this only reflects the flexibility of Hong Kong people, who go wherever it is easy to "strike gold". There is nothing wrong with this, a feature of a free society. What is in the wrong is the Government's past policies, which misled people to devote their attention to speculation.

Following the onslaught of the financial turmoil, both the stock market and the property market went downhill sharply, inflicting heavy losses on most Hong Kong people. Unlike people elsewhere, our people, besides protesting against certain cases of genuine improper supervision on the part of the Government, for example, the C. A. Pacific incident, have never staged any violent incidents or riots to confront the Government because of losses arising from speculation in real property or stocks. They just took some rational actions. This proves that Hong Kong people are mature, rational, and well aware of what they are doing. As it is now impossible to get rich by speculating in real property or stocks, people, I believe, will gradually go back to regular jobs. The Government actually can make use of this opportunity to direct Hong Kong's industry, commerce, financial services, and even the property market as well as the tourist industry and so on to progress towards some higher level developments so as to maintain Hong Kong's competitiveness internationally. Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion today indeed tallies with Hong Kong's current needs.

As a matter of fact, whether or not Hong Kong's economy can continue to grow depends very much on the factor of talents. The key factor lies in the ability to keep on educating and training talents. As more and more tasks require cross-discipline knowledge, and nowadays market and economic structure tend to change rapidly, change of jobs and change of professions are very common and frequent. What is more, the cost of living and the cost of doing business in Hong Kong will still be higher than our neighbouring competitors in the foreseeable future. Besides, Hong Kong has to develop economic activities of high added value and high technology. Under such circumstances, the people of Hong Kong can no longer solely depend on speculation and the sheer willingness to fight on to maintain market competitiveness for long. For Hong Kong products ─ including those of the markets of the primary, secondary and tertiary industries ─ to regain competitiveness in the world, they can no longer compete just by virtue of low cost. They have to be of good quality. The quality of products is determined by the producers' abilities to absorb professional knowledge, to screen information, to command technology, and to cast a broad global vision. Shaping the competitiveness of products, these factors are most complex and highly volatile, and render it necessary for the people to pursue studies, even non-stop studies.

Madam President, what the Government ought to promote is a culture featuring a society supportive of continuing education. Policy-makers or executives in the Government, Honourable colleagues, people working in different professions, and even those unemployed all have to study. The concept of continuing education should be extended from office to family. Housewives and those in retirement should also be encouraged to actively pursue studies so as to make adjustment for social changes by improving themselves.

The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance (HKPA) proposes that the budget for the coming year should increase tax allowance for further studies. For adult education, the Government should develop a set of mechanism for academic accreditation and supervision that is objective and uniform. In the first place, there can be broader recognition and acceptance as well as greater incentive for the people to pursue studies. In the second place, it can prevent certain organizing bodies from passing off fish eyes for pearls. And in the third place, the Government can consider giving persons pursuing studies but not enjoying tax concession, such as those jobless people and housewives, some encouragement by way of writing off their tuition fees on the basis of objective academic assessment. Furthermore, at present courses of continuing education tend to give greater weight to more advanced knowledge, and are intended mainly for those with higher levels of education. To help institutions run different courses so as to cater for the needs of people at different levels or in different professions, I am in favour of setting up a fund for continuing development.

Madam President, the Government's whole-hearted support for continuing education can surely contribute to boosting people's determination to pursue studies, as well as enhancing their knowledge, business standards and state of mind. All these can greatly improve Hong Kong's competitiveness.

With these remarks, I support Mr TAM Yiu-chung's motion. Thank you, Madam President.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I am very grateful to the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung for moving this motion related to the development of continuing education as well as various Members for expressing their valuable opinions. I am pleased to take this opportunity to elaborate on the Government's policies, measures adopted over recent years and future work in promoting continuing education.

In 1986, the Government accepted the three basic objectives of developing open and continuing education as proposed in the Education Commission (EC) Report No. 2:

First, to provide a second chance for those who had to forgo or were denied the opportunity of further education when they left school, or whose requirements for further education develop relatively late in life;

Second, to provide continuing education to update and enhance the training of those who began their careers after finishing their university education;

Third, to provide retraining for those who had been working for a considerable period of time so as to enable them to extend or acquire new professional or vocational skills for the sake of coping with technological, economic and social changes.

To develop tertiary-level open education, the Government established the Open Learning Institute of Hong Kong (OLI) in 1989. With the Government's support and the efforts made by the institution, the OLI has become the seventh university in Hong Kong within a short span of nine years. By means of flexible teaching methods, the Open University of Hong Kong (OUHK) has been providing distance courses to provide a second chance for those who have been, for various reasons, unable to continue with their education after leaving school. The OUHK is now providing a number of courses ranging from sub-degree, degree to post-graduate courses, and has 8 000-odd graduates and 24 000-odd students.

In response to the speeches given by several Members earlier, I wish to point out that the Government has been providing the OUHK with substantial financial support:

(1) During the first four years after the establishment of the institution, we earmarked a total of $108 million to support its recurrent expenditure and an additional $58 million for funding its establishment. With the efforts made by the institution, the OUHK became self-financing from 1993-94 onwards.

(2) In 1992, the Government earmarked $150 million for the construction of a permanent site for the OUHK. The site now situated in Ho Man Tin was granted by the Government at a nominal premium.

(3) In 1993, the Government earmarked $100 million for the development reserve fund of the OUHK for the sole purpose of developing self-supporting new subjects, with emphasis particularly placed on subjects taught in Chinese.

(4) Over the past three years, the Government earmarked a total of $20 million to finance the OUHK to set up an electronic library and a $6 million research fund. From 1998-99 onwards, the Government will refund the rates paid by the OUHK, thus saving the OUHK $1.3 million or so annually.

(5) In order to support the OUHK to establish an excellent status in the area of adult and distance learning, the Government injected a non-recurrent fund of $50 million again in 1997 to encourage the OUHK to organize and improve Chinese and English adult distance courses to provide Chinese communities in Hong Kong, the Mainland and overseas with more opportunities of higher education.

Over the past decade, the establishment and development of the OUHK into a self-financing higher continuing education institution have marked an important milestone in the expansion of adult and continuing education. During the period, the Government has also made definite contributions.

Apart from the OUHK, the overall continuing education in Hong Kong has also undergone substantial development over the past years. It is roughly estimated that approximately 320 000 people, representing about one tenth of the labour force, in Hong Kong are now receiving continuing education. There is a wide range of courses that can roughly be classified into 10 major categories:

(1) The Education Department (ED) runs 42 centres to provide a number of education programmes for people of academic levels ranging from Primary to Secondary 6, as well as financing voluntary organizations to run adult education programmes;

(2) Five institutions funded by the University Grants Committee have set up specialized departments to, under the principle of self-financing, run continuing professional education programmes which cover an extensive scope, including degree and professional courses as well as numerous subjects such as those on hobbies, language, computer and so on;

(3) The Vocational Training Council (VTC) provides education programmes of various kinds, including workshops and seminars on management skills organized by its Management Development Centre of Hong Kong;

(4) Through the constant injection of funds from the Government, the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) allocates funds to support a number of training institutions and provides more than 140 training courses in 124 centres;

(5) Being another statutory organization in which continuing professional education programmes are organized, the Hong Kong Productivity Council (HKPC) runs internal training programmes for individual companies as well as evening programmes;

(6) A number of charitable educational organizations and professional bodies organize different programmes to meet the needs of their members and people from different strata;

(7) 450 non-local programmes are registered or exempted from registration under the Non-local Higher and Professional Education (Regulation) Ordinance for the purpose of providing continuing education;

(8) Some foreign institutions in Hong Kong (such as the Alliance Francaise, British Council and Goethe-Institute) also provide language courses;

(9) A number of commercial institutions organize a wide range of language and commerce courses; and

(10) In addition to the nine categories mentioned above, many enterprises in Hong Kong also arrange internal training for their employees.

I have just briefly introduced the continuing education programmes offered by various institutions, educational and other organizations at the moment. These different types of courses are mostly provided in the light of different needs. Meeting the challenge of the market is something that warrants our support. On the other hand, I also agree that the Government can consider playing a more active role, such as in co-ordinating courses, particularly those which are funded by public money, safeguarding the consumer rights of those who pursue studies, as well as formulating strategies of a longer range to tie in with our long-term socio-economic development. Coincidentally, continuing education and vocational training are in fact inseparable in many areas such as language, communication, the ability to cope with changes, working attitude and so on. As such, the Government has indeed made the most reasonable and cost-effective arrangement by putting education and manpower under the same bureau. Moreover, this is in line with the spirit of the Enhanced Productivity Programme as currently advocated by the Government.

In order to ensure the quality of non-local programmes, the Government has enacted the Non-local Higher and Professional Education (Regulation) Ordinance to provide a legal basis for regulating the quality, operation and promotion of courses run by non-local higher and professional education organizations in Hong Kong. In doing so, the Government can safeguard the interests of the local consumers as well as preventing some non-local programmes from accepting students in Hong Kong in spite of the fact that they have failed to gain recognition in their places of origin. It is stipulated in the law that all courses that run in Hong Kong and award non-local higher education or professional qualification to students must apply for registration or exemption from registration.

To encourage the public to pursue studies, the Government has provided various financial concessions. Firstly, we have allocated $50 million to the OUHK in 1994 for the establishment of a student loan fund so that a student loan scheme can be set up to allow students with financial difficulties to pursue their studies in the OUHK. 6 490 students have been benefitted by the scheme since its establishment for they can pay the tuition fee with a loan charged at an interest rate of 3% per annum. In 1998, we injected an additional $50 million into this fund to subsidize unemployed students and those coming from low-income families to enable them to pursue or complete the relevant courses. It is estimated that the extra funding can increase the number of beneficiary students by 2 000 each year. Apart from the abovementioned loan fund, we have, starting from the academic year of 1998-99, expanded the scope of the non-means-tested loan scheme by including students from the Shue Yan College and the OUHK as well as part-time students participating in government-subsidized tertiary programmes. Since the acceptance of applications at the end of September, we have approved a total of 1 190 applications, with 420 of which coming from the OUHK. Applicants will receive a loan amount of $24,000 on average, and they can start repaying the loans after completing the relevant courses. In addition, starting from 1996, the personal study expenses incurred by taxpayers as a result of attending courses related to their jobs can receive a tax relief of up to $30,000, which should be sufficient to meet most of the tuition fee expenses incurred by part-time programmes. Up to 31 December 1998, the Inland Revenue Department has, in this fiscal year, received a total of 130 000 applications, and the amount involved has reached $1.37 billion, representing $10,540 for each case.

As for Mr TAM Yiu-chung's proposal of instituting a transparent mechanism for the accreditation of academic qualifications as well as an integrated qualification ladder, we agree to such a direction of development. It is mentioned in the 1998 policy address that to help ensure that both employed and unemployed people can benefit from a well-structured education and training ladder, the Government will develop a qualifications framework for programmes provided by the VTC and ERB. This will provide an objective yardstick to assess the skills standards of trainees and will help secure employers' confidence in and recognition of the qualifications. We aim to draw up preliminary proposals by the end of this year.

Looking forward to the future, continuing professional development might have the following developmental tendencies:

(1) With the development in technology, more and more continuing professional education programmes will move towards the global market, crossing regional boundaries. Programmes provided on the Internet will also become increasingly popular. Such development will produce some profound influence on the accreditation, convergence and supervision of programmes.

(2) Continuing professional education has witnessed a constant growth in places all over the world. In some regions, continuing professional education gradually meet and link up with basic higher education. As far as I understand it, the OECD has, for many years, advocated the policy of shortening the "preliminary investment" devoted to traditional higher education and using the education resources thus saved for providing life-long education. In Hong Kong, one third of the education resources injected by the Government has been devoted to basic higher education. An important topic for the Government and the education sector to face jointly will be whether there is a need to re-define the relationship between continuing education and higher education and even other areas of education, as well as whether it is essential for resources to be redeployed.

(3) In Hong Kong, there are several hundreds of thousands workers who are aged over 40 and who have only attained the primary or junior secondary level or in possession of low skills. It has become increasingly pressing for the Government to figure out how to encourage or push these people who have rich experience in life but relatively low skills to pursue studies more systematically, particularly at a time when we are now constantly pursuing high added value and high productivity.

Upon the request made by Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, I will respond to the proposal on education vouchers put forward by him earlier. As far as I understand it, the notion of education voucher was in fact first proposed by FRIEDMAN, a famous United States academic, many years ago for its implementation in the education field for the purpose of putting his theory of free market and consumers' free choices into practice. In the United States, the voucher system has been implemented in two different areas. First, after the Second World War, the United States Congress passed a law, GI Bill of Rights (this is from my memory as I do not have the information on hand). The spirit of the legislation was to let each ex-serviceman to obtain a lump sum to complete a degree programme without specifying which university he had to attend. For many years, the legislation was praised by many academics for they held that it had really proved to be very useful in providing education, promoting social equality as well as enhancing education opportunities for ethnic minorities. In addition, a few states in the United States have passed a law recently for converting an average amount of public money for subsidizing secondary school students into vouchers to allow students to freely choose the school they like. But I have to point out that this voucher system has aroused much controversy in not only the few states I just mentioned, but also across the whole country. Those who are interested in this issue should be aware that the issue has even involved constitutional proceedings recently. But I do not intend to elaborate on the relevant situation in detail as we do not have much time. Therefore, if we are to consider whether we should adopt this means or a notion similar to voucher to develop our continuing education, we must first of all determine whether additional resources or redeployment of existing resources will be involved as I said earlier. I am certain that this will involve many people and organizations with vested interests and produce a revolutionary impact on the entire educational sector. As such, any governments, of course including the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, must consider the matter carefully. But of course, I will not rule out the feasibility of this notion in Hong Kong and the possibility of conducting further academic or practical discussion with Members who are interested in this matter.

Undoubtedly, continuing education is an integral component of our education system. We also share the view that we have to formulate long-term objectives and strategies. The Education Commission (EC) is now conducting a full review of our education system. The first stage of the review will aim at setting an overall objective for secondary, primary, kindergarten and tertiary education. I earnestly hope that the EC can, in the latter stage of its review, study and set objectives for other major educational fields, including vocational education, non-formal education, life-long study and continuing education. As such, there is no need at this stage to hurriedly establish a continuing education commission. Actually, there will not be a lack of commissions in the educational field. In the coming year, I will work closely with my colleagues in the Education and Manpower Bureau to gather more information on Hong Kong's continuing education and co-operate closely with other government departments and relevant organizations to study the various issues pertaining to accreditation and reinforcement of protection for the purpose of building a foundation to facilitate the formulation of long-term objectives and strategies in Hong Kong in a more concrete manner.

The Chief Executive pointed out in the 1998 policy address that as our society becomes more knowledge-based, continued education becomes more important. It is the Government's aspiration that Hong Kong can become a learning-based society. Of course, I share the view that learning is also conducive to the development of personal mentality, the attitude of personal behaviour, the enhancement of vocational skills and even the interests in arts and recreation. In this debate, Members have put forward many notions and concrete proposals relevant to continuing education. As a result, I am able to keep on learning and make amendment to my speech. With respect to this topic, I am therefore pleased to make unrelenting efforts with Members and people in the community to promote the development of continuing education in Hong Kong .

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TAM Yiu-chung, you may now reply and you have up to three minutes 14 seconds out of your original 15 minutes.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank Honourable Members for supporting my motion. Their speeches have added much to my motion and brought up some very good ideas. Also, the Secretary for Education and Manpower has just presented a detailed account of the work done by the Government in the area of continuing education. However, it seems that he still has some reservation on setting up a continuing education commission. I put forward this proposal because my work at the Elderly Commission has given me the feeling that the establishment of a formal commission can more effectively promote the relevant work. If the Government is to take charge alone of mapping out the future strategy, I do have some doubts about the outcome.

In conclusion, I want to bring up one point. "Fair ladies" are men's dream girls; a "cure-all" is also what ordinary men dream of. For men's modern society, continuing education is a "cure-all" which, being capable of curing all diseases, good for person of every sex, every age and every level of wealth or knowledge, and also able to bring to every person immediate relief from illness, can be put to use very effectively. Of course, as just mentioned by us, the said cure can be used to improve individuals' competitiveness in the community. Even in matters just mentioned by Honourable colleagues, such as morality, intelligence, sense of value, personality, behaviour, humanities, and arts and culture, it is also useful. That is why I call it a "cure-all". I think it is correct to say so. Members' speeches are also appreciative of the far-reaching significance of the cure. So, I hope that upon the passing of the motion, the Government will put in genuine efforts to promote it so that Hong Kong's continuing education can move on to a higher level. Finally, I should like to thank Honourable colleagues once again for their support.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr TAM Yiu-chung be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I need not ask further as all Members present have raised their hands.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, who are present. I declare the motion passed.

NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 3 pm tomorrow.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes to Ten o'clock.

　

Annex I

EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

　

COMMITTEE STAGE

　

Amendments to be moved by the Secretary for Justice

Clause	Amendment Proposed
2	(a) In the proposed section 47, by deleting subsection (1) and substituting -
	"(1) In civil proceedings evidence shall not be excluded on the ground that it is hearsay unless -
	(a) a party against whom the evidence is to be adduced objects to the admission of the evidence; and
	(b) the court is satisfied, having regard to the circumstances of the case, that the exclusion of the evidence is not prejudicial to the interests of justice.
	(1A) The court may determine whether or not to exclude evidence on the ground that it is hearsay -
	(a) in the case of civil proceedings before a jury, at the beginning of the proceedings and in the absence of the jury;
	(b) in the case of any other civil proceedings, at the conclusion of the proceedings.".
	(b) By adding -
	"47A. Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence
	(1) Provision may be made by rules of court -
	(a) specifying hearsay evidence in relation to which subsection (2) shall apply; and
	(b) as to the manner in which (including the time within which) the duties imposed by that subsection shall be complied with in the cases where it does apply.
	(2) A party proposing to adduce in civil proceedings hearsay evidence which falls within subsection (1)(a) shall, subject to subsections (3) and (4), give to the other party or parties to the proceedings -
	(a) such notice, if any, of that fact; and
	(b) on request, such particulars of or relating to the evidence,
	as is reasonable and practicable in the circumstances for the purpose of enabling him or them to deal with any matters arising from its being hearsay.
	(3) Subsection (2) may be excluded by agreement of the parties, and compliance with the duty to give notice may in any case be waived by the person to whom notice is required to be given.
	(4) A failure to comply with subsection (2), or with rules under subsection (1)(b), shall not affect the admissibility of the evidence but may be taken into account by the court -
	(a) in considering the exercise of its powers with respect to the course of proceedings and costs; and
	(b) as a matter adversely affecting the weight to be given to the evidence in accordance with section 49. [cf. 1995 c. 38 s. 2 U.K.]".
	(c) In the proposed section 55B(1), by deleting "rights" and substituting "powers".

Annex II

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1998

　

COMMITTEE STAGE

　

Amendments to be moved by the Secretary for the Treasury

Clause	Amendment Proposed
6(b)	In the proposed subsection (4B), by deleting "it appears to the Commissioner" and substituting "the Commissioner, on the ground that a court or other competent authority has decided that such business or branch is unlawful, decides".

Annex
Number of PDB Members by district and type of occupation
		Number of PDB Members
	Occupation Type	C&W	E	KC	KT	SSP	S	WC	WTS	YTM	Is	K&T	N	SK	ST	TP	TW	TM	YL		Total
1.	Agriculture and fisheries												1			4		1			6
2.	Insurance		3		1					1		1	1		1	1		2	1		12
3.	Transport			1	3	1	1		1	1		3		1			1		3		16
4.	Education	6	6	3	7		3	1	5		2	5	2	1	6	4	3	2	2		58
5.	Legal	1	1		1		2	1	2	1				1	1	2	3				16
6.	Accountancy	1	2	1				1		1						2		1			9
7.	Medical	1	1			1	1	1	2						1						8
8.	Health Services						1		1	1											3
9.	Engineering			2	3							2	1					2	1		11
10.	Architectural, surveying and planning	1								1				1	1			1			5
11.	Labour		2	1		1			1			1		1				1			8
12.	Social Welfare	2		1	4	2	2	3		3		4	1	1			1				24
13.	Real estate and construction		2	1		1		1	1		7	1				3	2	2	7		28
14.	Tourism		2	2			1		1												6
15.	Commercial	3	9	3	6	4	1		5	5	3	2	7	2	15	4	4	5	8		86
16.	Industrial		1	2		2	1		1			3					4	1	1		16
17.	Finance and financial service	2	2		3			1		1	1		1	1							12
18.	Sports, performing arts, culture and publication			1	1	2	1	1					1					1	1		9
19.	Import and export																	1	1		2
20.	Textiles and garment			1	1	1						2		1		1					7
21.	Wholesale and retail			2			2		1		1										6
22.	Information technology	1	2		1		1	1		1		1			1			4			13
23.	Full-time PDB Member		7	6	9	7	3	2	6	1	3	9	4	7	12	3	4	9	6		98
24.	Others (for example, preacher, community organizer)					3			1	2	1				2				1		10
	Total	18	40	27	40	25	20	13	28	19	18	34	19	17	40	24	22	33	32		469

Key
C&W	- Central and Western	S	- Southern	K&T	- Kwai Tsing	TW	- Tsuen Wan
E	- Eastern	WC	- Wan Chai	N	- North	TM	- Tuen Mun
KC	- Kowloon City	WTS	- Wong Tai Sin	SK	- Sai Kung	YL	- Yuen Long
KT	- Kwun Tong	YTM	- Yau Tsim Mong	ST	- Sha Tin
SSP	- Sham Shui Po	Is	- Islands	TP	- Tai Po