MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KENNETH TING WOO-SHOU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT

THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, S.C., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING

DR THE HONOURABLE LUI MING-WAH, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE CHEUNG WING-SUM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI CHEUNG-CHING

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KWOK-KEUNG

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE BERNARD CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE GARY CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE WONG YUNG-KAN

THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO

THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-KIN

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

MR I G M WINGFIELD, J.P.
THE SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING

MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

MR RAFAEL HUI SI-YAN, G.B.S., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES

MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, G.B.S., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MISS DENISE YUE CHUNG-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY

MR DAVID LAN HONG-TSUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS

MRS RITA LAU NG WAI-LAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING

MS MARIA KWAN SIK-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

MISS YVONNE CHOI YING-PIK, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL

MR LAW KAM-SANG, J.P., DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
Miscellaneous Licences (Amendment) Regulation 1999	130/99
Declaration of Constituencies (District Councils) Order 1999	131/99
Employees Retraining Ordinance (Amendment of #9;Schedule 2)(No. 4) Notice 1999	132/99
Declaration of Increase in Pensions Notice 1999	133/99
Widows and Orphans Pension (Increase) Notice 1999	134/99
Supplementary Medical Professions Ordinance (Application) Order 1999	135/99
Supplementary Medical Professions, Midwives Registration and Nurses Registration (Amendment) Ordinance 1985 (67 of 1985) (Commencement) Notice 1999	136/99
Physiotherapists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) Regulation (Cap. 359 sub. leg.) (Commencement) Notice 1999	137/99

Sessional Papers

No. 128	─	Report of the Electoral Affairs Commission on the Recommended Constituency Boundaries in respect of the 1999 District Councils Election
No. 129	─	Audited Statement of Accounts of the Quality Education Fund together with the Director of Audit's Report for the year ended 31 August 1998

Report of the Finance Committee on the examination of the Draft Estimates of Expenditure 1999-2000 (June 1999)

ADDRESS

Report of the Finance Committee on the examination of the Draft Estimates of Expenditure 1999-2000 (June 1999)

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam President, on behalf of the Finance Committee, I would like to present the Committee's Report on its examination of the Draft Estimates of Expenditure for 1999-2000, which were referred to the Committee by you, Madam President, in accordance with Rule 71(11) of the Rules of Procedure.

The purpose of the examination is to ensure that the Administration is seeking no more than is necessary for the execution of the policies of the Government for 1999-2000.

This Report gives an account of how the examination was conducted and contains the proceedings and the key points of deliberations at the special meetings held from 16 to 19 March 1999. Prior to the special meetings, written questions were invited from Members on the Draft Estimates. This year, a total of 1 616 written questions were raised by Members for the Administration's reply. A summary of the number of written questions raised on the policy areas of the respective policy bureaux is provided in the Report.

The Finance Committee held a total of six meetings consisting of 17 sessions from 16 to 19 March. All meetings were open to the public.

At each session, the Policy Secretary responsible for the specific policy area was first invited to brief Members on the spending priorities and provisions sought. Members were then invited to put questions to the Policy Secretary and his/her Controlling Officers on the Draft Estimates of Expenditure, and on the presentation given by the Policy Secretary. Supplementary questions and requests for additional information were dealt with by the Administration after the meetings in writing.

Madam President, I would like to express my appreciation to Members for their enthusiasm in forwarding their written questions. I am also grateful to Members and representatives of the Administration who took part in very fruitful deliberations at the series of special meetings. Last, but not the least, I wish to thank the staff of the Finance Bureau and the Legislative Council Secretariat for supporting the work of the Committee.

Thank you, Madam President.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. I would like to remind Members that question time normally does not exceed one and a half hours, with each question being allocated about 12 to 15 minutes. When asking supplementaries, Members should be as concise as possible. They should not ask more than one question, and should not make statements. To do so would contravene the Rules of Procedure.

After a Member has asked a main question, other Members who wish to ask supplementary questions to this question please indicate their wish by pressing the "Request-to-Speak" buttons in front of their seats.

If a Member wishes to follow up and seek elucidation on an answer, or raise a point of order, please stand up to so indicate and wait for me to call before speaking.

First question.

Legislative Intent and Objectives of Articles in the Basic Law

1.DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government has advised that it will seek interpretation of the articles in the Basic Law from the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress (NPC) on the basis that the legislative intent and objectives are not expressly stated in these articles. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the articles in the Basic Law in which the legislative intent and objectives are not expressly stated; and

(b)whether the legislative intent and objectives referred to by the Government refer only to the legislative intent and objectives of the Basic Law Drafting Committee when drafting the Basic Law, or also to the relevant views expressed by other bodies, such as the National People's Congress Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Preparatory Committee, on the articles in the Basic Law, subsequent to its promulgation?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, before replying to the question raised by the Honourable Member, I wish to clarify the basis on which the Chief Executive has asked the State Council to seek an interpretation from the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress (NPC). Insofar as the question suggests that the only basis was that "the legislative intent and objectives are not expressly stated in these articles", it does not reflect the true picture. The circumstances in which the request has been made, as Honourable Members may recall, were explained in detail in the Secretary for Justice's statements to the House Committee on 18 May 1999, and in the motion debate on 19 May 1999.

In the light of the above, I will answer the question which is in two parts.

The first part asks the Government to identify the articles in the Basic Law in which the legislative intent and objectives are not expressly stated. I regret that it is not practicable to give a list of such articles. Like constitutional instruments found in other parts of the world, the Basic Law states general principles and expresses purposes without covering every detail and defining every term. The question whether any particular article expressly states its intent and objectives cannot be answered in the abstract, but is dependent on the particular questions that need to be answered.

For example, the current debate on the right of abode involves two questions, namely:

(a)whether Article 24 para 2(3) of the Basic Law gives the right of abode to children born of a Hong Kong permanent resident regardless of whether that parent became a permanent resident before or after the child's birth; and

(b)whether the restrictions on entry into Hong Kong imposed by Article 22 para 4 of the Basic Law on "people from other parts of China" apply to persons who have the right of abode under Article 24 para 2(3) of the Basic Law.

The two articles do not expressly answer those questions. However, the articles do expressly state the legislative intent on other issues. For example, it is clear from Article 22 para 4 who is intended to determine the number of persons who may enter the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) for the purposes of settlement.

The second part of this question asks whether, in referring to the legislative intent and objectives of the Basic Law, the Government is referring only to the legislative intent and objectives of the Basic Law Drafting Committee, or also to the views of other bodies. Since the Basic Law was adopted by the NPC, the task of interpretation will involve ascertaining the true legislative intent of the NPC itself, not of other bodies.

The manner in which the Standing Committee of the NPC ascertains that legislative intent will be for the Standing Committee to decide. However, Article 158 para 4 of the Basic Law provides that the Standing Committee shall consult its Committee for the Basic Law of the Hong Kong SAR before giving an interpretation of the Basic Law. Whether it should take into account the views of the Basic Law Drafting Committee, the Preparatory Committee or any other body is a matter for the Standing Committee to determine.

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Madam President, under the common law system, the legislative intent of laws should be interpreted by the courts, and ultimately by the Court of Final Appeal (CFA). When the CFA has given a clear interpretation of the legislative intent of the Basic Law, will the Government still think there are unclear areas? If so, will the power of interpretation of the Court be practically abolished?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, the power of interpretation of the Basic Law is vested in the Standing Committee of the NPC. In the adjudication of cases, the Court of Final Appeal (CFA) may interpret the provisions of the Basic Law, and the courts of Hong Kong generally in relation to matters within the autonomy of the region. But the ultimate power of interpretation is vested in the Standing Committee of the NPC.

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Madam President, my question is: If the power of the CFA to interpret the law is overidden, does it mean the CFA has no power of interpretation? It seems the Secretary has not answered my question.

PRESIDENT: Secretary for Justice, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE:Madam President, I do not have anything further to add, but may I try and explain a little bit further. The CFA has interpreted certain provisions when adjudicating these cases, but that does not preclude the Standing Committee of the NPC from interpreting the same provisions.

MR MARTIN LEE: Madam President, will the Government inform this Council what documents it knows that would enable the Standing Committee of the NPC to ascertain the legislative intent of the NPC when it promulgated the Basic Law on 4 April 1990 in relation to these two articles?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE:Madam President, I have made it clear that what the Standing Committee takes into consideration is for the Standing Committee, and not for the Hong Kong Administration, to determine.

MR MARTIN LEE: My question was not answered. What documents does the Government have or know that can be relied upon by the Standing Committee?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, I do not think I have anything to add to my first answer. It is for the Standing Committee to determine what documents are relevant to the determination of the interpretation.

MR MARTIN LEE: It is still not answered. The answer could be the Government knows that there are no such documents, or the Government knows of some documents. Madam President, the question is not answered.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Martin LEE, please sit down first. Very often, a Member may think a public officer has not answered his or her question, but the public officer may think that an answer has been given. The reason may be the Member is not satisfied with the answer given. However, it would be futile if Members pursue the matter further during question time.

MR MARTIN LEE: I would thus like to seek a ruling from you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The next Member to ask a supplementary question is Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as the Basic Law is a constitutional document, its provisions deal with the principles only. Will the Secretary inform this Council of the circumstances under which the Government will seek an interpretation by the Standing Committee of the NPC about the legislative intent of the relevant provisions? Specifically, will the Government do so before or after the CFA has made a final ruling?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, I do not think I can answer that question in the abstract. As to the circumstances in which an interpretation may be sought, the Administration has made it quite clear that an interpretation will only be sought in exceptional circumstances. The criteria have not been specified, although the Administration is prepared to consider whether there should be criteria, but that is a matter for further consideration and is obviously a matter of some complexity.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, my supplementary question is a follow-up to the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's supplementary question. After the recent CFA judgment, the Government has decided to request the Standing Committee of the NPC to interpret Article 22 para 4 and Article 24 para 2(3). We understand that the Government did this because it felt the CFA judgment was inconsistent with the legislative intent of the two provisions in the Basic Law. Will the Government inform this Council on what ground does it consider the CFA judgment inconsistent with the legislative intent of the relevant provisions? Or what other reasons are there to support the application?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, in the two particular articles in respect of which an interpretation has been requested, there is justification for considering that the true intent of those articles is not as reflected in the CFA's judgment, and it is on that basis that it is thought appropriate and proper to seek an interpretation from the Standing Committee of the NPC.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, my question clearly requested the Secretary to state the grounds for considering the CFA judgement inconsistent with the legislative intent of the Basic Law. Or did the Government make the request as it pleases in the absence of any ground?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, the history of the understanding in respect of the meaning of these two articles went back even before the drafting of and the finalization of the Basic Law, all the way back to the Joint Declaration. As Members will appreciate that the Basic Law is intended to give effect to the Joint Declaration, and the policies of the People's Republic of China in respect of Hong Kong are also set out in the Joint Declaration, it is therefore entirely permissible to have regard both to the Joint Declaration itself and to the subsequent discussions in relation to the interpretation of the Joint Declaration when considering the meaning and intent of the provisions of the Basic Law.

MISS EMILY LAU: Madam President, the Secretary has said that it is not practicable to give a list of articles in the Basic Law in which the legislative intent and objectives are not expressly stated, but he has not denied that such articles exist. I want to ask the Secretary whether the signal that the Administration is trying to send to the community and the international community is that, the Administration certainly intends in future to go to the Standing Committee of the NPC for further interpretation of these articles, and also to overturn future verdicts by the CFA?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, the Administration has made it clear on a number of occasions both in this Chamber and elsewhere that it would only seek an interpretation of articles of the Basic Law in exceptional circumstances. Clearly, that does not preclude future requests, but nonetheless, it is intended to mean precisely what it says: It would only be in exceptional circumstances that a request would be made.

As far as the second part of the Member's question is concerned, I should make it quite clear that there is no question of an interpretation overturning the decision of the CFA. The CFA's decision, so far as the litigants in those proceedings are concerned, is final and the litigants in those proceedings will, of course, be given the rights which the Court has determined that they should have.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Madam President, during discussions in this Chamber on the issue, I certainly got the impression that interpretation by the Standing Committee of the NPC was confined within a certain framework: It could only be within the Basic Law and the intent. But last Saturday, we heard some legal scholars said that they reckoned that interpretation could even have the effect of actually changing or supplementing the law.

Now, I would like to ask, when the Government on this occasion is asking for an interpretation, is it very clear that the intent is only to be within the framework of giving interpretation within the original legislative intent, or could it actually go as far as actually amending the law or supplementing the law, for which the door is open, as some scholars have said?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Well, Madam President, I think that the scholars to which the Honourable Member referred were talking about the power of the Standing Committee of the NPC in respect of interpretation of the laws of China generally. Of course, the Basic Law itself makes express provision for the amendment of the Basic Law, and certainly the Administration's view is that the power of amendment is the power that is expressly stated in the Basic Law.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, is the Standing Committee of the NPC obliged to produce evidence on the legislative intent of the Basic Law when it was drafted when it interprets the legislative intent of the Basic Law when it was drafted, as the Standing Committee of the NPC interprets the legislative intent of the Basic Law? Or is it possible that meanings after legislation are inserted on interpretation? Will evidence before legislation or interpretation added thereafter be applied or admitted in Hong Kong courts?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Once an interpretation is given by the Standing Committee of the NPC, that interpretation is then binding upon the courts of the region.

MR AMBROSE CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, if I have not been mistaken, the Hong Kong SAR Government has no direct channel to request the Standing Committee of the NPC to interpret the Basic Law. It can only liaise with the State Council to make the request. Will the Secretary for Justice inform this Council of the channel used by the Administration to communicate and effect the request? From the Secretary's reply, it can be seen that the Government has assumed the Standing Committee of the NPC will certainly comply with the request for an interpretation of Articles 22 and 24 of the Basic Law. So what channel was it through which the Government made the specific request? And through what channel can the Government ensure that documentary evidence is produced as grounds for the interpretation of the relevant legislative intent?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, the Honourable Member is, of course, correct. What the Administration has done is to request the State Council to ask the Standing Committee to make the interpretation. Whether the State Council will, in fact, give effect to that request and whether the Standing Committee will entertain the request are, of course, matters for the respective bodies. And certainly, I would not wish to suggest that anything else is the case. So, there is no mechanism by which we can ensure that the request is indeed considered by the Standing Committee. It is a matter for the Standing Committee to determine whether it will entertain the request.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam President, as we all know, before the Standing Committee gives any interpretation, it is quite possible that the Committee for the Basic Law of the Hong Kong SAR can be asked to give its views. If these views are forthcoming from the Committee, will the Government here receive those views, and if it does, will the views be made public for the community in Hong Kong?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE: Madam President, in my main answer, I made it clear that it is not just a matter of whether the Standing Committee wishes to consult. Under the provisions of Article 158, before any interpretation is given, the Standing Committee must consult its Committee for the Basic Law. Whether the Committee's views will be made public is a matter for the Committee and presumably, indeed, for the Standing Committee itself to determine.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: I thought I asked the Secretary for Justice if the Administration here receives those views, that is, the views of the Committee of the Basic Law, will the Government here make it public?

SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE:Madam President, this is very hypothetical because, of course, we do not know whether the Administration is going to receive those views, and on what understanding or basis the views will have been communicated to the Administration, so I really cannot answer that question at the present time.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, we have spent more than 18 minutes on this question. Let us move on to the second question.

Right to Operate Clinics in Public Housing Estates

2.MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the right to operate clinics in the public housing estates (PHEs) managed by the Housing Department are currently granted through the Estate Doctors Association Limited (EDA), private medical practitioners must be enrolled as members of the EDA before they are qualified to participate in the ballot arranged by the EDA for the right to operate these clinics. Furthermore, the current ratio of the medical practitioners operating in PHEs to the population served is on the low side, as compared to the corresponding ratio in the entire territory. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)it will consider allowing all private medical practitioners in Hong Kong to tender for the right to operate clinics in PHEs, as well as increasing the ratio, of the medical practitioners operating in PHEs to the population served to a level comparable to the corresponding ratio in the entire territory;

(b)it has, on the basis of the instructions set out by the Competition Policy Advisory Group (COMPAG), assessed if such an allocation policy has gone against the principle of fair competition, and whether it has submitted reports on this issue to the COMPAG; if it has made such an assessment and submitted such reports, whether the COMPAG has further examined the compliance or otherwise of this policy with the principle of fair competition; if no report on this issue has ever been submitted to the COMPAG, the reasons for that; and

(c)the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) has conducted a study on the prevention of corruption and the prevention of other illegal conduct with respect to this allocation policy; if so, the time when such a study was conducted and the results of the study; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, premises for medical clinics in PHEs are provided at full market rent at the ratio of one clinic to 7 500 to 10 000 people to the EDA for allocation to its members through a balloting system. There is no territory-wide ratio specified in the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines as the number of clinics varies among different districts, depending, for example, on population, age distribution and preferences of medical practitioners.

The Housing Authority (HA) has stated in its 1999-2000 Corporate Plan to review the present allocation policy. The Government understands that the HA will consider whether all medical practitioners in private practice should be allowed to tender for the right to operate clinics in PHEs.

In the review the Housing Department (HD) will also determine whether the present allocation arrangement is in line with the Government's competition policy. This conclusion will be submitted to the HA and the COMPAG by the end of this year.

The ICAC completed an assignment report in 1992 on the allocation arrangement for medical clinics in PHEs. Although the report preferred an open tender system, it also accepted that the balloting system had few corruption opportunities for HD staff. Several recommendations were made by the ICAC to improve the balloting system if it were to be maintained. The HA subsequently decided that the balloting system should be maintained, subject to tightening up control of letting procedures and restrictions on clinic operations. Both the ICAC and the EDA indicated that the revised arrangement was acceptable.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, for the protection of the rights of patients in PHEs, what will the HD do to ensure that the medical practitioners granted the right to operate clinics there will not invite his or her friends to work as replacements or even contract out the clinic to them and split up the earnings while he or she will operate another clinic in another place? How will the HD prevent such cases from happening?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, when allocating the right to operate clinics in PHEs, the HD and the medical practitioner concerned will sign a tenancy agreement whereby it is stipulated that the medical practitioner concerned will be available in the clinic personally for medical consultation for at least three hours daily and that the clinic should be open for business for at least six days a week. Should the medical practitioner concerned need to be away from the clinic for studies or vacation, he or she is subject to certain rules whereby no period of absence exceeding a certain period is allowed. The EDA will exercise its monitoring function in this respect. Staff of the HD will also make periodic visits to the clinics at the PHEs to inspect how the clinics are operating and to ensure that they comply with the terms and conditions of the tenancy agreement.

MR LEE WING TAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, when the authority concerned conducts a review in the future, will consideration be given to granting the tenancy by open tender? Will a review of the ratio of medical practitioners to the PHE population be made to see if it is fit and proper? It is because the territory-wide ratio of medical practitioners to population is 1 to 700, while that in the PHEs of the HD varies from 1 to 7 500 to 1 to 10 000. Will a review be made of this ratio?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, a review is definitely going to be made in this respect. I would like to make use of this opportunity to inform Mr LEE that we have sought the advice of the Director of Health on this issue. The Director said that the ratio was in fact not a very accurate one. The reason is that the numbers of medical practitioners in the territory and the total population are themselves numbers which are subject to certain limitations. Then why is there a ratio of medical practitioners in the PHEs to the population there? The ratio has been worked out simply because of the need to distribute all kinds of commercial services in the PHEs in order that the needs of the residents there can be met. It does not follow that the services provided by medical practitioners in the PHEs can replace the medical services in Hong Kong generally. There are also clinics operated by other private medical practitioners outside the precincts of the PHEs, and there are clinics operated by the Government and welfare agencies within the PHEs. So the ratio is not to be taken as an accurate figure. The fact that the HD is using this ratio is only as a general guideline in planning so that the public can have access to medical services provided in private clinics.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Apart from medical practitioners and dental surgeons, there are also other commercial undertakings operating in the PHEs. Just now the Secretary mentioned that the medical practitioners and dental surgeons are subject to certain special regulations such as they should be personally available for consultation for a certain amount of time daily. May I know if similar regulations do exist for other trades, if so, what these regulations are; if not, why are medical practitioners exclusively subject to such regulations?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, as far as I know, the number of medical practitioners are often planned against the overall population, but as for the shops, markets and hair saloons, there is no need to plan them against the size of the population in Hong Kong for their numbers depend only on the basic needs of the PHEs. When the HD allocates the commercial units, there are no fixed ratios to serve this purpose. Consideration will be given only to the general needs of the residents, that is, what kinds of commercial services should be provided to the residents.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. The Secretary said earlier that the medical practitioners and dental surgeons practising in PHEs must make themselves available for consultation for a certain period every day. May I know if other trades have a similar rule because all of them are serving the public, if they have not, why? Is it due to the differences in the tenancy agreement, the rentals or some other reasons?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Sorry, Madam President, I have missed the point of the question. I thought Dr LEONG was asking a question on ratios. As a rule, we would require medical practitioners to open their clinics for no less than six hours daily. For other trades, we would base our consideration on commercial grounds. There are restrictions on the minimum daily opening hours for certain trades which are to the best of my knowledge, definitely much longer than those of the medical practitioners in their clinics. These are meant to ensure that the public will get the services they need. In general, there are time slots straddling across the morning, afternoon and evening so that the public will find it convenient to buy the things they need.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary said earlier that there were no restrictions on the number of clinics in PHEs and that these clinics only provide services of a general nature to the residents and they were in no way meant to replace the medical services of Hong Kong generally. But then the Secretary said in his main reply that the guideline for the number of clinics in PHEs is one clinic for 7 500 to 10 000 residents. Such a guideline must have been determined by reference to certain standards. What are these standards and have these been compared to those from our counterparts such as Singapore?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the figures I have quoted are not the result of comparison with other places. The figures are the results of historical development. Since the beginning of the 1960s, the Government became aware that there was a relative lack of clinics in PHEs, and that few private medical practitioners were interested in running practice in PHEs. In face of such a situation, the HD and the HA drew up some planning guidelines as an initial step, and the above ratio was adopted after an examination together with the EDA. Then afterwards some people asked for an improvement of this ratio and to set up more clinics in PHEs. But after deliberations, it was decided that the guidelines should remain unchanged. It was eight years ago, that is, in 1991 when the guidelines was last reviewed. The HA decided that no amendment would be proposed from then on. But in this year's review, I think they will consider the Government's opinions and study the figures carefully.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, various commercial undertakings in PHEs such as banks, provision stores and so on are not allocated premises through trade organizations such as the Hong Kong Association of Banks, but medical practitioners have to undergo an allocation arrangement by the EDA. Would the Government inform us why such a distinction is made?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I have mentioned in reply to a supplementary question earlier, few private medical practitioners were interested in providing medical services in PHEs in the 1960s. The EDA was formed to pool together those who were interested in running practice in PHEs and to provide the co-ordination needed. The EDA also helped the HD at that time to deal with problems of estate clinics in their day-to-day operations and the procedural problems they encountered. Thus the current situation is a legacy of the past. Such a state of affairs is not found in trades other than medical and dental services. We shall ask the HD to conduct a review of the current situation.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, I was asking what the reasons were, but the Secretary was talking about history and he did not mention any reasons. Is this a problem of history or a problem of policy? Would the Hong Kong Association of Banks, for example, be asked to offer assistance should premises set aside for banks fail to be leased?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I might add to say that this is not a special policy. If this is an established policy, we would not have asked the HA to conduct a review.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, after the recent coverage with the problems of estate clinics by the media, quite a lot of discussions on the subject have been initiated. I would think that medical practitioners who wish to practise in the estates are doing this to serve the residents there. In the second paragraph of his main reply, the Secretary said that a review would be made of the current situation. Would the Secretary inform us whether he would consider the views put forward by the Health and Welfare Bureau, that is, providing a comprehensive range of medical services to the estate residents, and to allow a team of medical practitioners instead of just one to provide medical services in each clinic in PHEs? Such an arrangement would prevent the occurrence of the case mentioned by Mr LEE Wing-tat, that is, those medical practitioners who have been granted the right to operate will allow their clinic to be run by medical practitioners of an uncertain quality. Will the Government consider providing a complete range of medical services to the residents?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think we should not be overly worried about the operation of the clinics. The review which I mentioned in the second paragraph of my main reply is quite a comprehensive one. I trust that the HD and the HA will consult the Department of Health when they conduct the review. As a matter of fact, each time when we conducted a review in the past we sought the advice of the then Medical and Health Department, including the review in 1991. Therefore, I believe that in the course of the review presently being undertaken, a number of government departments and related bodies will be consulted and the views and suggestions which they put forward will be taken into account.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, we have spent more than 16 minutes on this question. Although many Members are still waiting for their turn to raise questions, I suggest they should follow up the issue through other channels.

The third question.

Salvaging Objects from Sunken Vessels

3.MR WONG YUNG-KAN (in Cantonese): A vessel sank between Tap Mun Chau and Chek Chau on 1 January last year, but to date a container on the sunken vessel is still left in the sea and has not been salvaged. Recently, the plastic waste inside that container has been flowing out and drifting about in the nearby waters, resulting in the death of a substantial amount of marine fish in the fish culture zones in these waters, and causing serious damage to marine ecology. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)it knows the amount of plastic waste that has not been salvaged so far and is still left in the waters nearby where the vessel sank; and of its plans to clear all the plastic waste;

(b)it will request the owner of the said vessel to compensate those mariculturists who have suffered loss; if not, the reasons for that; and

(c)it will consider devising a package of measures to salvage objects from sunken vessels, in order to ensure that nothing from sunken vessels will be left in the sea; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President,

(a)after the accident, the Marine Department immediately undertook a clean up operation in the waters near the shipwreck to remove the containers and the plastic waste from the broken containers. The operation continued for over 20 days until no further residual cargo was observed. Later the Department found that one container had not been located. The missing container is believed to have drifted off-shore with the water current.

(b)The Agricultural and Fisheries Department (AFD) has inspected the fish culture zones in the vicinity of the incident but has seen no evidence of abnormal mortality. If mariculturists have evidence to prove that they have suffered losses caused by the marine incident, they can consider claiming damages through civil proceedings. If necessary, the Government will assist mariculturists to assess their losses.

(c)On receipt of reports of sunken vessels or a marine accident, the Marine Department will deploy vessels to remove the sunken vessel and to clean up goods on board as soon as possible to ensure that there would be no residue in the sea.

MR WONG YUNG-KAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the marine ecology has already been seriously damaged. Everyone knows that Tap Mun used to abound with abalone and sea urchins but there is nothing there now. This is caused by plastic bottles sunk into rock crevices which stop the abalone from growing. Moreover, the seabed is also covered with large plastic sheets. Everyone knows that if the seabed is covered by plastic sheets, marine life underneath will die out, and the marine ecology will be disrupted. May I ask how the Government is going to solve it?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, if anyone discovers such waste in the sea, the Marine Department would be very glad to hear from them. It will follow up vigorously to remove the waste from the sea.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, this clean up operation took over 20 days. May I ask how many government vessels and staff were engaged in the operation? Were the expenses borne by the owner of the wrecked ship?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, in this incident, 20 vessels were engaged in the whole operation for 20-odd days. We have already claimed damages from the owner of the wrecked ship. Although the ship company went out of business after the incident, we have recovered part of the expenses.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (a) of the main reply, the Government has said that it believes the container has drifted off-shore with the water current. May I ask where it means by off-shore and how far from the coast is considered "off-shore"? Will the Government locate the container and salvage it to prevent large quantities of plastic waste from floating in the sea, thus damaging the ecology and the environment?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Marine Department has already cleaned up the vicinity of the incident and the fairway. However, if anyone has the information of the lost container, he is welcomed to inform the Marine Department so that they can follow up positively.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. After the container was lost, how can its owner provide information to the Government? The Secretary has already known that a container has drifted far off-shore. Does she know its exact location? Will the Government investigate into it?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, we know the information because the ship owner had told us that they had a total of 38 containers but we could only salvage 37 after the incident, so we know that there is one missing.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, how can that container be salvaged? I am very much worried because the container left in the seabed will continue to leak out plastic waste, which would suffocate the cultured fish. If the container is salvaged, it would not pose a problem any more.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you catch the thrust of this supplementary?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think that question is about plastic waste flowing out from the container and drifting about in the sea. I have already said several times that the Marine Department has already cleaned up all the plastic waste in the waters in the vicinity of the incident. However, if anyone discovers plastic waste floating elsewhere, he can contact the Marine Department for follow-up actions.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform us whether it has conducted a comprehensive assessment of the damage to the ecology in the nearby waters after the incident and what remedies will be taken? If it has not done so, will it assess the damage to the environment should similar incidents happen in future?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, as far as we understand, such plastic waste is non-toxic and does not pose any direct threat to the fish. On receipt of reports from mariculturists in early January 1998, the Agriculture and Fisheries (AFD) tested the water in the marine culture zones nearby and found that the water quality there had not been affected. However, the plastic waste carried by the water current to the marine culture zone got twined to the bordering fish cages of the fish rafts and affected the water flow in the rafts, and that might affect the cultured fish in the rafts indirectly.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not answered the second part of my supplementary question concerning whether assessments will be conducted should similar incidents happen in future.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I am sorry, Miss CHOY. I thought you were asking another question. Could you perhaps tell me one more time which part of your question that has not been answered?

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): I asked whether the Government would conduct an assessment to the overall environment should similar incidents happen in future.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, if similar incidents should happen, the first thing to do is for the Marine Department to clean up the waste in the sea. If the ecology is found to be affected, the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) will certainly follow up.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am not at all satisfied with the Secretary's answer. In particular, she does not seem to have answered Mr WONG Yung-kan's question completely, and Mr WONG is the one who best understands this.

The question now is not about the garbage or plastic bags on the sea surface but the plastic waste in the seabed and rock crevices. They had asked the Government to clean it up but their request was turned down. May I ask whether the Secretary for Economic Services will undertake in this meeting that if they can point out where the remaining plastic bags are, no matter in the seabed, rock crevices or on the sea surface, the Government will certainly remove them?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, sitting beside me today is the Director of Marine whom I have especially invited to attend this meeting. As regards this supplementary question, I would say if plastic bags are found on the sea surface or close to the coast, they will be cleaned up by the Marine Department. If the waste is found on land, the Marine Department must work with other departments such as the Regional Services Department or the Urban Services Department to carry out a land and sea clean-up. The Director of Marine has told me before that if Members would provide him with the information concerned, he would follow up.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, you may also feel that the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. I am not talking about the waste on the sea surface or on land but that in the seabed and rock crevices instead. Will the Government give us a definite answer today whether it would promise to do the clean-up if someone inform it where the waste is? Actually, Mr WONG Yung-kan had already informed them but they declined to take any action. Will they be willing to clean-up the waste? What I am talking about is not the waste on land or on the sea surface but that in the seabed or rock crevices.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, having gone so far, I would like to clarify that the clean-up work of garbage in the sea actually comes under the purview of the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau (PELB). However, as regards the waste on the sea surface and in rock crevices, that is waste on land, I have already answered. I have discussed with the PELB and found that at present there is not a particular department responsible for cleaning up garbage at the seabed. Nevertheless, if garbage in the seabed is found to have adverse effect on the ecology, I think that the EPD should follow up.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has been mentioned in part (b) of the main reply that mariculturists who suffered losses caused by the marine incident may claim damages through civil proceedings. May I ask whether the Government will take the initiative to prosecute the polluters in incidents that cause pollution to the seabed and sea surface?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, if we know who the culprits of incidents are, the Government would sometimes take the initiative to take action against them. But if such incidents cause damages to a certain group of people, for instance mariculturists, I think the mariculturists themselves should claim damages through civil proceedings. Nevertheless, the Government can provide assistance to mariculturists. For example, the AFD would assess their losses, investigate the cause of death of the fish, test water samples as well as conduct tests on live and dead fish. The Government plays the role of a mediator to help the mariculturists to negotiate damage claims with the parties concerned.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, does the Secretary mean that the Government will not take the initiative to claim damages?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, Dr TANG asks whether the Government will take the initiative to claim damages.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have already said earlier that under certain circumstances, we will take the initiative to claim damages. For example, in the shipwreck mentioned by Mr WONG Yung-kan in this question, the Government did take such action.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, marine accidents such as oil spills or the incidents mentioned here do happen occasionally. May I ask whether the Government has laid down any standard procedures to be followed in the wake of such accidents, for example, having the EPD collect water samples and assess the impacts on ecology?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, at present, all marine accidents causing pollution to the sea are dealt with by the Marine Department. However, colleagues of the EPD will also participate in the process.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, may I ask the Secretary to explain in greater detail?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have information on hand to give a more detailed explanation?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not have the relevant information on hand. I have already said that this comes under the purview of the PELB and that is why I do not have information in this respect. If Members would like this information, I can refer this question to the PELB and ask them to reply in writing. (Annex I)

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Thank you.

MR WONG YUNG-KAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not answered my question so far. The whole seabed is covered by plastic sheets and the marine ecology underneath is already damaged. That is what I am concerned about. I have been talking not about the waste floating on the sea surface because that can certainly be removed. I am talking about the waste in the seabed. What can be done? The things causing the greatest damage are the plastic bottles in the seabed and in the rock crevices there which inhibit the growth of small abalone fry. That is the most important problem at the moment.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, if marine ecology is disrupted, I believe that the Honourable Member can give the information to the AFD and the EPD and ask them to follow up.

MR WONG YUNG-KAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, actually concerning this ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, which part of your question has not been answered?

MR WONG YUNG-KAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary advises me to refer the matter to the EPD. Actually, I had already told the EPD after the incident that it was most important to clean up the waste in the seabed but the matter has yet to be dealt with.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, it is the question time now which is not for discussing problems. I suggest that Members should follow up the question in the relevant panel. Although many Members are still waiting for their turn to raise questions, since we have already spent over 15 minutes on this question, I cannot allow Members to ask further questions on this.

Fourth question.

Computer Viruses

4.MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, on 26 April this year, a computer virus known as "Chernobyl" attacked and severely damaged computer systems all over the world. It is reported that the computer systems of five government departments in Hong Kong were also affected. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the department which is responsible for examining and formulating measures to prevent viruses from infecting important computerized information systems and databases of government departments; and the specific measures formulated by the department for guarding against computer viruses;

(b)whether it will formulate long-term measures to prevent viruses from infecting computer systems in the wake of this incident; if so, the details of such measures; and

(c)whether it will consider providing free anti-virus software and guidelines for small and medium enterprises on a regular basis so as to ensure the normal operation of their computer systems?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President,

(a)all government departments have the responsibility to ensure the normal operation of their computer systems, including the adoption of appropriate measures to prevent their computer systems from being infected by viruses. The Information Technology Services Department (ITSD) provides technical support in this regard and provides from time to time government departments with information on computer viruses and preventive measures against virus attacks to be taken. Specific preventive measures include:

(i)To remind departments to install in their computer systems and computer network systems with anti-virus software.

(ii)To ask departments to regularly update the signature files of anti-virus software for the identification of newly found viruses.

(iii)To remind departmental staff not to use computer software of doubtful origin and unlicensed or pirated software. Newly installed computer programme files should be scanned with anti-virus software to ensure that their computer systems are not contaminated.

(iv)To advise departmental staff not to put computer files into the computer network systems for public use unless they have been scanned by anti-virus software and confirmed that they are free from virus infection.

Apart from raising the awareness of all government departments on computer viruses and enhancing their ability to prevent viruses through the issue of circulars, organization of talks and seminars and so on; the ITSD will also provide technical advice and services to them.

(b) The anti-virus measures formulated by the ITSD have been in place over the years. The ITSD has all along promoted these measures among the staff of government departments and encouraged them to enforce the measures stringently. It will also monitor closely the latest development of computer viruses and keep the departments informed in the first instance. With a view to enhancing the knowledge of the community on computer viruses, the ITSD has uploaded the relevant information to its web page (www.info.gov.hk/itsd/) for public reference.

(c)Computer users in small and medium enterprises can refer to the web page of the ITSD for guidelines on the prevention of computer viruses. Besides, some providers of anti-virus products offer trial versions of their anti-virus software on the Internet. Users can download them for trial use free of charge.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is mentioned in part (a) of the main reply that although the ITSD provides from time to time information on computer viruses and preventive measures against virus attacks to be taken, the computer systems of five government departments were still infected with the "Chernobyl" virus. Is that because these viruses are very hard to detect or the preventive measures are inadequate?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government's computers are no different from those used by the general public in the sense that they are susceptible to virus attacks. The present preventive measure is of course to keep reminding colleagues to follow the guidelines and update the signature files of anti-virus software for the identification of computer virus software and files. However, I think that after all computer users themselves have to watch out for them always. Since computer viruses can appear in all forms and styles, we must be constantly on the alert. I believe that if everyone always follows the guidelines, virus infection can be prevented.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, it seems that the Government has not directly answered part (c) of the main question raised by Mr Ambrose LAU. The Government only suggests that small and medium enterprises download anti-virus software from the Internet for free trial use. But such an act, that is, to indiscriminately download software from the Internet, is exactly the cause for easy infection with the "Chernobyl" virus. In respect of Mr LAU's question, may I ask whether the Government will choose to issue instructions to small and medium enterprises telling them how they can avoid downloading software irresponsibly or to send out anti-virus tools to these enterprises?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, of course, we will advise all computer users and small and medium enterprises not to indiscriminately use filtering or anti-virus software provided through the Internet. In fact, we do know of the suppliers of legal anti-virus software in the market and they also know of these suppliers, so they should download software supplied by suppliers who are properly licensed. Moreover, I would like to point out that although the Government does not supply such software to small and medium enterprises free of charge, new computers are usually installed with basic scanners that can filter computer viruses. Of course, computers of older models may not have been installed with such software, but the anti-virus softwares available in the market are all reasonably priced and should be affordable to the public.

MR HUI CHEUNG-CHING (in Cantonese): Madam President, computer viruses very often spread by electronic mail through the Internet. Has the Government formulated a set of regulations to be followed by civil servants in relation to sending and receiving electronic mail as well as using the Internet in order to prevent attacks of computer viruses?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, the answer is yes.

DR LUI MING-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, computers are more and more commonly used in the industrial and commercial sector and at the same time computers are more and more frequently attacked by viruses. Can the Government set up a mechanism to collect information on newly found computer viruses and promptly disseminate it on the Internet and to the public through the media?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have already said that computer viruses can be found in all forms and styles. Not only in Hong Kong, but in many international organizations, staff are hired especially to collect information about computer viruses and to inform the public about it, calling on them, computer users in particular, to watch out for it. However, I feel that to protect one's computer is like protecting one's own home, where the user must be highly vigilant. The Government has already taken the first step to upload all relevant information onto its web page. We will constantly update this information for reference of the public and the industrial and commercial sector.

MR CHAN KWOK-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, computers are frequently infected. In the face of other viruses, the Department of Health would provide vaccination for the public. May I ask whether the Government can set up a team to design anti-virus programmes and give them to people free of charge whenever computer viruses are found? This way, we can fight against computer viruses without having to discuss this problem constantly like what we are doing now.

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, computer viruses can mutate into many different forms. Just like the "Chernobyl" virus, it has also mutated into many versions. Can it be eliminated by one programme alone? I do not believe so, because even one mutation form is eliminated, another will emerge. I still think that to prevent virus attacks, computer users have to follow the guidelines because they can be protected this way.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, five government departments were attacked by a computer virus. May I ask whether these departments had not followed the four preventive measures listed in part (a) of the main reply strictly, or there were some other reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to our information, these departments had received our guidelines and they should have followed them. However, sometimes such things are hard to prevent and what has happened has happened. Nevertheless, I can assure Members that the infected computers in these departments were all personal computers for internal use. The public services provided by the Government have not been affected at all as a result of that.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, what was the Government's expenditure on the security of computer systems in the past three years and what will it be in the next three years?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): I am sorry, Madam President. I do not have the information on hand. I will answer Dr TANG in writing. (Annex II)

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has said earlier that there are many different kinds of computer viruses. I believe that the Information Technology and Broadcasting Bureau (ITBB) has secured most information on that and the strongest manpower to deal with it. Since computers are used in all government departments, will it be adequate just to issue circulars to or hold talks and seminars for their staff? Will the Secretary consider posting one person in each department with the special responsibility of tackling this problem? The ITBB can feed him with the most important information and make sure that he knows how to use it every time when viruses are found.

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I thank the Honourable Member for his supplementary question. In fact, at present, a network administrator is posted in each department to take charge of all matters concerning the use of computers in the department. This administrator maintains close contact with the ITSD and there is a very close network established to provide him with relevant information. Talks and seminars are also organized on a regular basis for these administrators. Hence, there is sufficient support for the departments.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (a) of the main reply, the Secretary has mentioned that the Government asks departments to regularly update the signature files of anti-virus softwares. May I ask whether the Government will consider playing a more active role? In the organization where I work, it does not remind departments to do this; instead the central administration would send out particular preventive softwares and require all departments to install them in their computers within a certain time, rather than allowing different departments to go their own courses.

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think this involves two aspects. First, when the computers are purchased, they are all equipped with virus scanners and they should all be ready to use when the computers are installed. Moreover, other preventive measures, such as signature files that can identify the most newly found viruses can be added. These files can be constantly updated so that when new viruses emerge, they can still identify them and send out warnings to the computer user. We have taken care of both aspects. At present, the Government's computer systems are all equipped with these virus scanners.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fifth question.

Rationalization of Bus Stops in Wan Chai

5.MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, bus stops on Hennessy Road in Wan Chai have recently been rationalized in order to ease the traffic congestion caused by buses queuing to pull in at the stops. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)the traffic condition in the area has improved as a result of the exercise;

(b)it has received any complaints about the new locations of bus stops; if so, of the major subjects of complaint; and

(c)it has plans to implement other measures to further improve the traffic condition of the area; if so, of the details of such plans; if not, of the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, the bus stops on Hennessy Road and Morrison Hill Road were rationalized in early May through cancellation and redistribution of stoppings of individual bus routes. The exercise involved 67 bus routes and some 600 bus stoppings were removed, reducing the total stoppings in a peak hour from 3 200 to 2 600. The rationalization of bus stops resulted in a smoother ride for the commuters, although for some of them, the walking distance to a bus stop might be slightly longer.

According to surveys conducted by the Transport Department (TD) after implementation of the scheme, there is a general improvement in the flow of buses at the bus stops. Bus journey time along Hennessy Road and Morrison Hill Road has been reduced by 35% from 13 minutes to less than nine minutes. The average travelling speed of buses has also improved by as much as 43%.

The TD is examining further traffic management measures to improve the junction of Hennessy Road/Fleming Road where vehicular queues are still observed because of the limited junction capacity. The Department is now developing schemes to divert and to reduce the volume of buses using that junction.

The rationalization of bus stopping activities in Wan Chai has generally been well received by commuters. Since the implementation of the scheme in early May 1999, the Department and the bus operators had received 10 complaints which mainly concerned the increase in distance between bus stops. Having regard to the overall benefits of the rationalization scheme, the slight increase in walking distance is considered acceptable.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, having looked at the main answer, I very much welcome the Government's taking the first step to rationalize bus stops, resulting in a great reduction in travelling time. This should be lauded. I would like to ask a supplementary question on the third paragraph of the main answer. The congestion on Hennessy Road and Fleming Road is still quite serious mainly because there are too many vehicles. In the main answer, the Secretary mentioned the question of junction capacity and said that the TD was planning to divert certain buses to improve the situation. Has the Government considered whether this will cause inconvenience to commuters? Moreover, has the Government considered new measures to ease the traffic congestion, such as building more flyovers nearby?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, in studying how to ease the congestion at the junction of Fleming Road, we have considered the several measures mentioned by Mr NG, such as diverting the traffic, limiting the traffic at the junction and building new roads. However, in old districts like Wan Chai and Central, the greatest problem still lies in the fact that there are few roads and a lot of vehicles and pedestrians. Thus, there is little that we can do. However, we will try to make arrangements in several areas in order to minimize the problem.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, diverting buses will have a greater impact on commuters and possibly shift the congestion from the junction of Hennessy Road/Fleming Road onto another road. May I ask the Government which factors it will consider before deciding which buses to divert? Moreover, will it carry out consultation before making the decision and how will such consultation be carried out?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, in considering how to ease the traffic congestion, we basically use the average travelling speed and travelling time during peak hours in the district or area concerned as principal reference. Therefore, we have to find out about and observe on the spot the congestion during peak hours at a certain junction or on a certain road. As to moving the bus stops, the distance between two bus stops is generally about 300 m to 400 m. However, the exact distance depends on the actual circumstances and so on. If the congestion is caused by the small distance between bus stops or too many bus stops, we will naturally move the bus stops a little bit further apart so that buses will have more space to pull in at the stops. In rationalizing the bus stops in Wan Chai, if the bus stops are moved further apart, commuters will have to walk approximately 50 m more in general, which means about eight to 10 shops further, which is not really very far. As for consultation, we will certainly carry out consultation. The district boards are our main consultation channel. We will also consult the industry, including the bus companies.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs LAU, has the Secretary not answered your supplementary question?

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, indeed, the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. I asked what factors the Government would consider before deciding which buses to divert; that is, why should a particular route be changed but not another. However, the Secretary talked about the bus stops instead. Therefore, he did not answer my supplementary question at all.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, moving the bus stops is one way to ease the congestion of buses. Changing the bus routes is another feasible measure. Naturally, we will also make reference to the number of commuters and the demand in the area of traffic congestion. We do carry out on-the-spot investigation.

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as we know, in the Wan Chai District that we are talking about, many bus-only lanes are designated for buses bound for the Southern District so that people from the Southern District can get out of the district quickly, because there is no Mass Transit Railway in the Southern District. Will these changes affect or cause delay in traffic in the bus-only lanes for buses bound the Southern District along Hennessy Road?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have conducted a review and study on the bus-only lanes scheme between the Southern District and Wan Chai, since this pilot scheme has been implemented for some time. The results show that while the bus-only lanes help to ease the traffic congestion and reduce journey time, the effects are not obvious. This time, in order to tackle the congestion in the Wan Chai District, we have considered moving the bus stops and changing the bus routes. However, basically, the bus-only lanes scheme will not be affected.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): What I said was that buses from the Southern District have priority in terms of bus stops and lanes in Wan Chai, while there are many restrictions on other buses pulling in and out of bus stops. I wonder whether the Government has considered this in the review.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): There is basically no obvious impact on the lanes and operation of buses from the Southern District to Wan Chai and Central. If those buses have to compete with other buses in pulling in at the stops, we will make appropriate adjustments.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the main answer, the Secretary seemed to suggest that the rationalization of bus stops was very effective. However, as far as I know, certain bus stops cannot be moved due to the lack of space. The bus stops at the exit of the Hung Hom Cross Harbour Tunnel are one example. How will the Government deal with such cases?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): We hope to build more new roads and open more permanent accesses. However, before we have a long term solution, we can only solve the problem by effective management, by having commuters line up in an orderly manner, or by regulating the frequency of certain buses. Indeed, according to the patronage, the frequency of certain buses can be appropriately regulated and reduced.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, as reflected by residents of that area, it seems that the number of buses has increased considerably only after the New World First Bus Company Limited (the First Bus) launched its service. While it is a good thing to have more buses, have studies been made to confirm if this situation is caused by the overlapping of routes of the two bus companies; if so, what improvement measures does the Government have?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to explain and repeat the main causes of the congestion caused by buses in Central and Wan Chai during the past nine months. It is generally held that the congestion is caused by the intensified competition between Citybus and the First Bus on Hong Kong Island, after the latter started its operation. However, this is not true.

Since the First Bus launched its service in September 1998, the number of buses or frequency of operation has not increased tangibly. In fact, since the First Bus commenced its operation on Hong Kong Island in September last year, the total number of buses on Hong Kong Island has remained at 1 220 to 1 270. This number is more or less the same as the number of buses before the First Bus launched its service. We have also considered the daily average total traffic volume (including buses and private vehicles) in Central and Wan Chai, especially the traffic volume during peak hours in the morning. Compared to 1997, it has only increased by about 4% in 1998. Thus, there is no marked increase. Then what are the reasons? The main reason is the inauguration of the Western Harbour Crossing and the Tai Lam Tunnel at the end of 1997 and early 1998 respectively. Since then, we have new bus routes travelling to Central and Wan Chai via the Western Harbour Crossing, in addition to the airport routes. As a result, the number of buses has increased. On the whole, due to the inauguration of the Western Harbour Crossing and the Tai Lam Tunnel, 15 new routes were launched, resulting in a total of 100 bus trips. In Central and Wan Chai, there are 1 000 bus stoppings more. This is the main cause of the visible congestion created by buses in Central and Wan Chai during the past nine months. Just now Mr LAU asked whether the congestion was caused by the launching of service by the First Bus. I would like to clarify that this is not the case.

As to the question of whether there is an overlapping of bus routes, in designating the bus routes on Hong Kong Island for example, we basically do not assign identical routes to the two bus companies. It must be remembered that due to factors such as the topography of Hong Kong Island, all routes running from east to west, regardless of which section it is, must pass through certain roads to go to Central, and through other roads to Wan Chai. Therefore, on the surface, one might think that both Citybus and the First Bus operate on Hennessy Road and Connaught Road Central. However, their routes do not necessarily overlap.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask a follow-up question on the Secretary's reply just now. If 1 000 bus stoppings are causing the congestion, why do we not consider reducing this number? For instance, can buses travelling to Central not stop in Central throughout their journey, so that the traffic in Central will not be so congested?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): This is what we are doing now. But we also have to ask the public to co-operate and show their understanding. We are facing two spheres of pressure: first, everyone living in the new districts asks us to launch new bus routes running from his door to every district in the north, east, south and west of Hong Kong. This is one sphere of pressure we have to face and deal with. The other is that there are few roads and a lot of traffic. How are we going to improve the traffic flow now or in future? In this respect, I hope that Members could help out and give us some support in balancing both sides.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TIEN, has the Secretary not answered your question?

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, my supplementary was whether the 1 000 bus stoppings could be reduced. Since he asked us to help, we would give him our support. However, he did not answer my supplementary question.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, over the past six months, in order to ease the congestion in Central and Wan Chai, we have already cut 1 100 bus stoppings. However, we will continue to work on this area. We are now looking into the neighbouring districts and trying all the time to put the congestion back to its original state. However, even if it is back to its original state, it still exceeds the capacity. I have said many times that the roads in Central and Wan Chai are taking more traffic than the original design allows. For instance, the traffic on Harcourt Road exceeds its capacity by 10%. The same applies to Connaught Road Central. Experts estimate that by early 2000, that is, if we do not build more roads or limit the number of vehicles, the capacity of the several trunk roads in Central will be loaded by twice the designed capacity. Therefore, the situation is in fact very bad.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last supplementary question.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask the Government whether it has considered adopting measures, such as further reducing the fare of the many tunnel buses after they have crossed the harbour in order to attract commuters to take these buses, so as to reduce the number of bus trips on Hong Kong Island.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, this is a very good suggestion and is in fact what we call the park-and-ride scheme. Actually, there is no way we can arrange for long-distance bus routes with an unlimited number of buses departing from a certain district. With some bus routes, one has to change an route. The problem is that it is not easy to find suitable places for interchange in the old districts. However, in the new districts and new towns, we do have such plans. To cater for the new train stations in future, we will actively implement bus interchange schemes and we hope that the bus companies will co-operate. The Kowloon Motor Bus Company Limited has already dopted the measure proposed by the Member. If commuters are willing to transfer at an en route stop, they can pay a reduced fare. Although this is not a very convenient method, I believe it is useful to solving the overall traffic problem in the long term.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Sixth question.

Sale of Duty-not-paid Diesel Oil

6.MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the current situation regarding the sale of duty-not-paid diesel oil;

(b)of the measures it has taken against such activities; and the number of persons prosecuted for operating illegal filling stations in the past year, as well as the average penalty imposed on the convicted persons; and

(c)among such prosecution cases, of the number of those involving illegal filling stations operating in residential premises; and the measures adopted by the Government to ensure the safety of the residents concerned?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, light diesel oil used by motor vehicles is dutiable in Hong Kong. The sale of duty-not-paid light diesel oil for use by motor vehicles is illegal. This kind of illicit activities continues to exist in Hong Kong. The Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) has been launching and will continue to launch large scale enforcement operations. It has also dedicated substantial resources to combating such sale of illicit light diesel oil at all levels, including the smuggling, distribution, retail and use of illicit fuel.

Since 1996, the C&ED has set up a Diesel Oil Enforcement Division to tackle the smuggling and distribution of illicit fuel. In addition, the C&ED has implemented two significant measures to deter the use of illicit fuel in motor vehicles. First, with effect from December 1996, any vehicle, other than those used for public transport, found twice using illicit fuel will be detained by the C&ED pending application for forfeiture. Secondly, with effect from January 1997, any vehicle driver or owner who commits an offence relating to illicit fuel will be fingerprinted and will have a criminal record upon conviction.

In 1998-99, the C&ED seized 5.6 million litres of duty-not-paid light diesel oil. Of this quantity, over 800 000 litres were from 461 illegal filling stations raided in that year. A total of 341 operators were charged with various offences under the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance for operating illegal filling stations. The imprisonment terms and levels of fine imposed by the Court on the 317 offenders found guilty range from 14 days to four months and from $250 to $55,000 respectively. The average imprisonment term was 1.7 months and the average fine was $3,470. Of the 461 illegal filling stations raided, 87 stations were situated at or near residential areas and a total of 72 persons who operated these stations were arrested and prosecuted.

The Administration has been paying special attention to illegal filling stations in or near residential areas. Since this year, the C&ED has launched three territory-wide special operations involving 102 locations in all parts of the territory. In these operations, a total of 17 illegal filling stations, all located in or near residential areas, were raided with the arrest of 28 persons and seizure of over 18 000 litres of duty-not-paid fuel. We encourage the public to report information concerning operation of suspicious illegal oil filling stations. For this purpose, the C&ED has established two reward schemes, funded by the Government and the oil industry separately.

Furthermore, the C&ED has been liaising and co-operating closely with the Fire Services Department (FSD) by passing all relevant information to the FSD for taking further appropriate action against those who have contravened the Dangerous Goods Ordinance and the Fire Services Ordinance. For example, two of the three territory-wide special operations against illegal filling stations mentioned earlier were jointly conducted with officers of the FSD. In these two operations, the C&ED and the FSD visited or inspected a total of 95 locations throughout the territory. As a result, apart from offences charged by the C&ED under the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance, the FSD prosecuted a total of nine persons under the Dangerous Goods Ordinance, and served Fire Hazard Abatement Notice under the Fire Services Ordinance to 14 persons requiring them to remove the fuel oil and the dispensing equipment involved.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the first paragraph of the main answer, the Secretary mentioned that substantial resources had been dedicated to combating such activities at all levels, including the use of illicit fuel. What is the effectiveness of the combat against the use of illicit fuel and how many users have been punished?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I do not have the figures on the successful prosecution of users on hand. But I can give a written answer to Mrs Selina CHOW. (Annex III) With regard to the prosecution of users, as I said in the main answer, with effect from December 1996, the C&ED will apply to the Court to forfeit any vehicle found twice using illicit fuel. Since December 1996, the C&ED has successfully forfeited one vehicle.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary said that 17 illegal filling stations located near residential areas had been raided. Since these filling stations were located near residential areas, they should be conveniently situated and easy to spot. May I ask why only 17 such stations were found after launching territory-wide operations? Why could this problem not be averted in the first place or why were the persons concerned not arrested when these filling stations opened for business?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, according to information provided by the C&ED, very often, illegal filling stations use vacant shop premises. They keep their doors closed during daytimeand vehicles only come at night to buy fuel. This explains why the C&ED particularly wishes and encourages people to report information. Actually, it does not take much capital or space to operate an illegal filling station. Very often, the offender can do business just by closing the gate of a shop. Therefore, in this year, for example, over $270 million have been allocated to the C&ED for anti-smuggling law enforcement and the search for contraband. Moreover, as I said in the main answer, we have specially allocated $17 million to the C&ED to set up an enforcement division to deal specifically with the problem of illicit fuel. However, since Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories cover such a vast area, the C&ED can enforce the law more effectively only if the public reports information.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Having read the second paragraph of the main answer, we are of course very glad that the Government has implemented two important measures. But since their implementation more than two years ago, has the Government conducted an official review on the effectiveness of these two deterrent measures? In answering Mrs Selina CHOW's supplementary question just now, the Secretary said that one vehicle had been forfeited to date. Does this mean that they have such a strong deterrent effect that many people dare not use illicit fuel twice, or does it mean that we have no way of finding the vehicles that use illicit fuel?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, these two measures do have a certain deterrent effect but perhaps not as much as we desire. In our view, one of the main reasons is that the first measure excludes vehicles for public transport. According to information provided by the C&ED, one type of vehicle frequently found by the C&ED to use illicit fuel is taxi. But since taxis are a means of public transport and the Legislative Council refuses to apply the first measure to vehicles for public transport, taxis cannot be included. Therefore, while these two measures have a certain deterrent effect, it would of course be better if they could be improved.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the third paragraph of the main answer, the Secretary mentioned that 461 illegal filling stations were raided in 1998-99. However, in the operations, only 341 people were charged under the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance for operating illegal filling stations. Does it mean that no operators were found when the C&ED arrived at the remaining hundred or so illegal filling stations or were there other circumstances involved? Will the Secretary inform this Council of the relevant circumstances?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, in some cases, when the Customs officers arrived, the people working in the illegal filling stations had already fled. That is why although 461 illegal filling stations were raided, only 341 people were charged. The owners or operators of the other hundred or so illegal filling stations had already escaped when they were raided by the C&ED.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, since no duty is paid for illicit fuel, its price is much cheaper than duty-paid fuel. As far as I know, illicit diesel costs $2.8 per litre, while duty-paid diesel sold at filling stations costs $5.69 per litre, which includes $2 of duty. In view of the proliferation of use of illicit fuel, has the Secretary assessed the loss in revenue as a result? Moreover, will the Government consider lowering fuel duty in order to reduce the price difference between duty-paid and illicit fuel, so as to reduce the attraction of illicit fuel and effectively combat activities relating to illicit fuel?

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, allow me to answer the second part of the supplementary question first. The duty levied on vehicle fuel each year is a very important item of income for the overall Government revenue. Last year, the Government derived $2 billion of revenue from the duty on light diesel oil. This year, it is estimated to be around $1.5 billion. Since the Government lowered the fuel duty from $3 to $2 only in June last year, the fuel duty levied was still $3 for several months last year. In terms of the overall government budget, we consider the existing duty to be too low. I am sure that Mrs LAU is well aware that the Government tried to seek the Legislative Council's approval to increase the duty on light diesel oil in the 1998-99 financial year. But it of course failed to do so. This shows that the Government considers the existing duty on light diesel oil to be too low. For the sake of the Government's overall revenue, if this duty is to be reduced, we must seek new sources of revenue in other areas in order to achieve a balance. If Members have any suggestions about this, I would be happy to consider them.

With regard to the first part of Mrs LAU's supplementary question, that is, whether the Government has assessed the loss of revenue due to the use of duty-not-paid fuel by drivers of the transport industry, we do not have any statistics on this. However, each year, the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department will estimate the number of vehicles in Hong Kong and the number of kilometres travelled by each vehicle per day and so on. Based on these estimates, we could arrive at a figure that might be extremely inaccurate, and that is, that the Government may be losing approximately $180 million of revenue annually.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, we have spent more than 16 minutes on this question. Although several Members are still waiting for their turn to ask questions, I suggest that Members follow this up through other channels. End of question time.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Quorum of an Owners' Corporation Meeting

7.MR AMBROSE CHEUNG (in Chinese): Regarding the quorum at a meeting of an Owners' Corporation as provided in paragraph 5 of the third schedule to the Building Management Ordinance (the Ordinance) (Cap. 344), will the Government inform this Council whether, in calculating the quorum:

(a)the total number of owners or the number of shares owned by the owners is taken as the basis for calculation; and

(b)representatives authorized by owners to attend the meeting of the corporation count towards the quorum; if so, whether the calculation is based on the total number of authorized representatives, the number of owners who appoint these representatives or the number of shares owned by the owners who appoint these representatives; in other words, when 100 owners appoint the same one person as their representative to attend the meeting of the corporation, in the calculation of the quorum, whether the representative is regarded as one person or 100 persons; on the other hand, when 100 owners appoint 35 persons as their representatives to attend the meeting, whether those representatives are regarded as 35 persons or 100 persons?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President, my response to the above question is as follows:

(a)Paragraph 5 of the third Schedule to the Ordinance (Cap. 344) provides that the quorum at a meeting of an Owners' Corporation shall meet the following requirements:

(i)20% of the owners, in the case of a meeting at which a resolution for the dissolution of the management committee under section 30 is proposed; or

(ii)10% of the owners in any other case.

The percentages mentioned in the above Ordinance are calculated on the basis of the number of owners rather than the number of shares owned by them.

(b)Paragraph 4(1) of the third Schedule to the Ordinance stipulates that at a meeting of the corporation the votes of owners may be given either personally or by proxy. Having consulted the Department of Justice, I was informed that representatives authorized by owners to attend a meeting of the corporation count towards the quorum referred to in paragraph 5 of the third Schedule to the Ordinance, and that the calculation is based on the number of owners who appoint these representatives.

In the example cited by the Honourable Ambrose CHEUNG, when 100 owners appoint the same one person as their representative to attend the meeting of the corporation, the representative is regarded as 100 persons in the calculation of quorum; similarly, when 100 owners appoint 35 persons as their representatives to attend the meeting, those representatives are regarded as 100 persons.

Transparency of Liaison Establishments on Environmental Protection

8.PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government and the Mainland authorities concerned have set up liaison establishments to discuss environmental issues involving the two places. These establishments include the Hong Kong and Guangdong Environmental Protection Liaison Group (EPLG) and its technical sub-group and expert sub-group, Hong Kong/Guangdong Co-operation Joint Conference and the Expert Group on Sewage Disposal (the Expert Group) in Hong Kong. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)the agenda of the meetings of these establishments can be made public before each meeting, so that the public can express views on the subjects in advance; if not, the reasons for that; and

(b)the outcomes and decisions of the meetings can be announced after each meeting of these establishments, so as to increase the transparency and accountability of these establishments; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President, of the three liaison channels to which the question has referred, each has its unique ambit. The Hong Kong/Guangdong Co-operation Joint Conference is a high level forum in which the governments of the SAR and Guangdong consider and co-ordinate action on various major issues of mutual interest, including but not exclusive to environmental issues. The day-to-day co-operation between Hong Kong and Guangdong on environmental protection is taken forward in the EPLG, which is led by the Planning, Environment and Lands Bureau (PELB) and the Environmental Protection Bureau of Guangdong Province. The EPLG enhances co-operation and co-ordination between Hong Kong and Guangdong on environmental management and pollution control efforts in areas of mutual concern. It is underpinned by a Technical Sub-group and three special groups which help to implement EPLG's annual work programme and provide technical advice on specific issues. The Expert Group, which is led by PELB and the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, is specifically charged with considering options for Hong Kong's Strategic Sewage Disposal Scheme (SSDS) and seeking common views on the future planning of the SSDS for the protection of coastal waters.

Our answers to the specific questions relating to the EPLG and the Expert Group are:

(a)Press statements have been issued before EPLG meetings to inform the public of the meeting date and the major issues to be discussed. As regards the Expert Group, since it has the very specific objective of considering options for the SSDS and its future planning, its agenda is always dominated by this single issue. When the Expert Group was set up last year, a press statement was issued before its first meeting to inform the public of the objectives and membership of the Expert Group.

(b)A press statement is always issued after these meetings to inform the public of the outcome of the meeting, of the major decisions made and of agreements reached between the two sides. Press briefings have also been arranged immediately after EPLG meetings. Annual reports on the work of the EPLG are provided to the Environmental Affairs Panel of this Council and the Advisory Council on the Environment.

Training and Guidelines on Transferring AIDS Patients

9.MR SZETO WAH (in Chinese): It is learnt that gloves, mouth-pieces, white plastic gowns and boots are worn by ambulancemen of public hospitals in the course of transferring Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) patients. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)ambulancemen are required to put on special clothing when transferring AIDS patients; if so, the reasons for that;

(b)it has assessed the need for ambulancemen to put on special clothing when transferring AIDS patients; if so, the details of the assessment; and

(c)ambulancemen have been provided with any training and guidelines on how to take care of AIDS patients during the patient transfers; if so, the details of such training and guidelines; if not, whether it will consider providing such training and guidelines?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)Ambulancemen of the Hospital Authority (HA) and the Fire Services Department (FSD) are not required to put on special protective clothing when transferring AIDS patients. Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) cannot be transmitted through air, social contact, or by insects. Under normal circumstances, ambulancemen will not put on protective clothing and/or gloves and mouth-pieces unless they are likely to come into direct contact with the blood or body fluids of the patient or when the patient is infected with air-borne diseases.

(b)HIV is transmitted through sexual contact, contact with contaminated blood or body fluids and perinatal infection, but not through air, social contact or by insects. In 1995, the Scientific Committee under the Advisory Council on AIDS published the "Prevention of Transmission of HIV in Health Care Settings ─ Guidelines and Practices", which provides guidelines on under what circumstances health care workers should wear protective clothing to prevent transmission of HIV.

(c)In the past, the Department of Health and HA have organized talks and other training courses, seminars and training programmes on HIV/AIDS for health care workers, including ambulancemen employed by the HA and the FSD.

Issuance of Licences for Cross-border Buses

10.MR JASPER TSANG (in Chinese): It is reported that the authorities concerned ceased issuing licences for cross-border buses between Hong Kong and the Mainland in mid-1997. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the authority in Hong Kong or the Mainland which is responsible for determining the number of licences to be issued for cross-border buses; of the criteria and procedure adopted by the authority in determining the number of such licences;

(b)whether the authority concerned conducts regular reviews on the number of these licences; if it conducts such regular reviews, the time of its last review and the results; if it does not, the reasons for that; and

(c)of the time at which the authority has planned to issue such new licences; how the authority can ensure that the new licences will be allocated fairly and openly when they are issued?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Madam President, there is a standing arrangement between Hong Kong and the Mainland authorities that cross-boundary buses are to be regulated by a Closed Road Permits system which is subject to a quota arrangement.

The number of quotas to be issued to cross-boundary buses is jointly determined by a Working Group formed under the Border Liaison System. The Working Group comprises representatives from various departments involved in the management of land boundary crossings from both the Hong Kong and the Mainland sides.

The Working Group holds meetings as and when necessary to make decisions on quotas for cross-boundary buses. In administering the quota system, the Working Group adopts procedures and criteria which seek to ensure that cross-boundary buses will grow at a measured pace so that the boundary crossing facility will not be overloaded and congestion will not reach an unacceptable level in the road network in the vicinity of the boundary crossings.

The Working Group keeps under regular review the need to increase quotas. In February 1997, the group decided to create 80 new quotas, 45 of them were subsequently allocated to operators. The Working Group last met in July 1998 and decided that the remaining 35 new quotas should be issued first before consideration is given to creating new quotas.

The allocation of agreed quotas to individual operators begins with open invitations for applications from both the Hong Kong and the Mainland side. Press releases are issued and advertisements are placed in newspapers to announce details of the application procedures and arrangements. Applications received will be examined by the Working Group, having regard to such factors as the applicant's ability to deliver the required service, the applicants' experience and track record in operating such passenger services, their asset size and intended amount of investment.

We expect the allocation process for the 35 quotas will begin shortly.

Security of Information Kept in Computer Systems

11.MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Chinese): Regarding the security of information kept in computer systems, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the number of reported cases in which unauthorized people (commonly called "hackers") accessed others' computer systems to browse, store or retrieve information therein, and the number of such cases that were cracked in each of the past three years; and

(b)whether it has any plan to facilitate small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) to become aware of the security measures that should be taken when carrying out transactions through the Internet?

SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND BROADCASTING (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)In the past three years, the numbers of reported cases of unauthorized access to computer systems and of those cases successfully tackled by the police are as follows:

	1996	1997	1998	1999 (as at 30 April 1999)
Number of reported cases	4	7	13	38
Number of cases successfully tackled	0	2	8	2

(b)To enable information technology and electronic commerce to take hold and flourish in Hong Kong, the Government has strived to raise the awareness of the community at large, including the SMEs, of the security measures that should be taken when conducting transactions over the Internet. The Government's efforts in this area include the following:

(i)We will establish a local public key infrastructure (PKI) to provide a safe and secure environment for the conduct of electronic transactions. With the use of digital certificates issued by certification authorities (CA), we can conduct business through the Internet in a much more secure manner. The public key cryptographic technology to be used in digital certificates will allow parties which take part in electronic transactions to authenticate the identity of the opposite parties, ensure the confidentiality and integrity of the information transmitted over the Internet, and safeguard against repudiation of electronic messages exchanged. The Hongkong Post will set up a CA by the end of the year and will provide public certification services to both individuals and businesses. We will publicize this initiative extensively so as to enhance public (including SMEs) understanding of PKI and to encourage them to make use of the certification services for strengthening the security of Internet transactions.

(ii)The Computer Security Unit (CSU) of the Crime Prevention Bureau of the police is dedicated to the task of advising the general public (including SMEs) on all matters relating to computer and Internet security. Through the distribution of information booklets, provision of automated telephone hotline service, and setting up promotional booth in computer exhibitions, the CSU educates the public on computer and Internet security. The CSU also seeks to publicize the importance of computer and Internet security by giving talks to businesses, security companies and educational institutions. In addition, the CSU also visits companies (including SMEs) to advise them on computer security measures and provide them with information on the latest security products and software.

(iii)Through the Industrial Support Fund, the Government has provided funding support to the Centre for Information Security and Cryptography of the University of Hong Kong (the Centre) for conducting research in public key cryptographic technology and the launching of the project on Strong Cryptographic Infrastructure for Electronic Commerce. This project will provide the public (including SMEs) with a simple means to learn and use public key cryptographic technology on a trail basis. From the web site specifically established for the project 〈http://www.csis.hku.hk/csic〉, members of the public can obtain introductory information on public key cryptography and enhance their knowledge about the security of Internet transactions. The public can also download the cryptographic modules developed in the project and apply for a digital certificate over the Internet at no charge, and can thus familiarize themselves with the operation of public key cryptography. Furthermore, the Centre will introduce the project results to the community through seminars and workshops.

Occupational Safety in Government Departments

12.MR ANDREW CHENG (in Chinese): According to the written reply by the Administration to a question raised in this Council on 12 May this year, occupational injury cases involving civil servants have been increasing in each of the past three years. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the mechanism in place to ensure the compliance by civil servants with the requirements on occupational safety set out in Regulation 700 of the General Regulations;

(b)of the disciplinary actions applicable for breaching the Regulation, the number of civil servants against whom disciplinary actions have been taken for violation of the Regulation in each of the past three years, and details of those disciplinary actions; and

(c)whether the Government has planned to revise the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance (FIUO) (Cap. 59) to the effect that the Ordinance also applies to the Government and its employees?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)Regulation 700 of the General Regulations promulgates that the Occupational Safety and Health Ordinance (OSHO) (Cap. 509), which prescribes measures to ensure the safety and health of employees when they are at work, binds the Government. The Regulation also states that although the FIUO (Cap. 59) does not apply to government workshops, such workshops should nevertheless conform in all respects to the standards of working safety as prescribed by the Ordinance and related subsidiary legislation, and they are subject to the same policy of inspection and control by the Labour Department.

The General Regulations stipulate that it is the responsibility of the respective heads of departments to ensure compliance by their staff of all government regulations. Where a government servant disobeys or neglects or fails to observe the terms of such regulations appertaining to his duties, including General Regulation 700, the Head of Department may consider taking disciplinary action against him.

As the enforcement agent of the FIUO and OSHO, the Labour Department carries out inspections from time to time to monitor occupational safety conditions at government workplaces and will draw to the attention of heads of departments and the Bureau Secretary concerned if irregularities were detected. In addition, the Government also promotes the awareness of civil servants on their obligation to comply with Regulation 700. In 1996 the Civil Service Bureau set up a working group comprising staff representatives to promote occupational safety and health awareness among civil servants. Several seminars and exhibitions on occupational safety and health in government workplaces have since been organized. Information kits on occupational safety and health for civil servants were produced in December 1998 and articles on the subject also appeared regularly in the Civil Service Newsletter. A "Good Practice Guide" is being prepared for issue in July 1999 to advise departments on the way to develop safety management system as a means to enhance safety at work.

(b)Disciplinary actions applicable for breaching Regulation 700, as in the case of other Regulations, range from the giving of verbal warning to dismissal of the civil servant concerned depending on the severity of the breaches. In the past three years, no serious breaches by civil servants of the provisions on workplace safety under the FIUO and OSHO have been detected by the Labour Department. Upon the advice of the Labour Department, any irregularities detected have been rectified by the management of the departments concerned. No disciplinary action has been taken against civil servants for breaching Regulation 700.

(c)The Administration has no immediate plan to amend the FIUO to apply it to the Government. This is because the OSHO enacted in 1997 already applies to the Government and, as a consequence, places on it an obligation to provide a safe working environment for its employees. The practical effect of the OSHO is that the Government has to comply with all the legal requirements stipulated in the FIUO and its regulations. In addition, General Regulation 700 mentioned in the earlier part of my reply reinforces the need for all civil servants to comply with all the legal requirements in our safety legislation.

Geographical Districts for Allocation of Public Housing

13.MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): On 1 November last year, the Housing Department regrouped the geographical districts for the allocation of public housing (districts of allocation), with the number of such districts being revised from the original eight to four. Each of the new districts of allocation covers an area so extensive that many localities which are far apart from one another are grouped into one district. For example, the Extended Urban District covers Tseung Kwan O, Sha Tin and Tsuen Wan. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)of the number of public housing applicants who have given up their chance for the reason that all the three housing offers made to them are situated far away from the locality they have chosen, since the introduction of the revised districts of allocation;

(b)given the new districts of allocation cover such extensive areas, whether consideration will be given to allocating public rental flats to such applicants again in accordance with the locality they have chosen; and

(c)whether the delineation of the districts of allocation will be reviewed to avoid an undue extensive geographical coverage of a district; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Chinese): Madam President, in the 1998 Housing Policy Objective, the Government decided to adopt a more proactive approach so as to shorten the waiting time for public rental housing. One of the measures taken to achieve this is to rationalize the system of choice by geographical area.

The policy has worked well. The simplified system of choice has created a more even distribution of public rental flat supply throughout the territory, thereby speeding up the allocation process and benefiting Waiting List applicants generally.

So far, no Waiting List applicant has withdrawn his application because of the introduction of this new policy. If an applicant were to withdraw his application and submit a request for rehousing in a specific sub-district, he would be given two months to submit documentary evidence in support of his request. The Housing Authority would consider whether there were sufficient medical, social or other grounds for his request to be met.

The Housing Authority will keep this policy under review to ensure the continued rational allocation of public housing resources.

Assistance to Passengers Arriving Outside Operating Hours of Airport Express

14.MR HOWARD YOUNG: The Airport Express operates from 6 am to 1 am daily. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it knows:

(a)the number of incoming flights which arrived outside the operating hours of the Airport Express since the new airport came into operation; and

(b)the contingency measures that the Airport Authority (AA) has put in place to assist passengers who arrive outside the operating hours of the Airport Express in leaving the airport without undue inconvenience after the necessary immigration and customs clearance?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Madam President, we have consulted the Transport Bureau, Transport Department, Civil Aviation Department and the AA. Our consolidated replies to the two parts of the question are as follows:

(a)Up to 30 April 1999, 1 552 incoming flights had landed at the new airport between 1 am and 6 am since it came into operation on 6 July 1998. Of these flights, 722 were passenger flights and the rest were all-cargo flights and other non-passenger flights.

(b)Outside the operating hours of the Airport Express, taxi services and over-night bus services are available to enable passengers arriving during the period to leave the airport. In fact, most of the passenger flights mentioned in (a) above landed between 5 am and 6 am. After completing the immigration and customs clearance, most passengers of these flights should be able to make use of the normal public bus services, which start from around 5.30 am, or the first Airport Express train.

There are AA duty staff at the Passenger Terminal Building round the clock. They will provide the necessary assistance if arriving passengers have any questions on the public transport services available at the airport.

Sewerage Treatment Works at Sham Tseng

15.DR RAYMOND HO (in Chinese): It is reported that most of the domestic sewage presently discharged from village houses near the Sham Tseng section of the Castle Peak Road directly flow into the sea through stormwater drains; while sewage from other village houses connected to the centralized septic tanks often discharge into the sea through stormwater drains due to overflowing of the septic tanks. It is noted that a proposed sewage treatment works at Sham Tseng will not be completed until 2004. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a)whether it knows the number of village houses in the area that have not yet been connected to appropriate sewage treatment facilities;

(b)of the measures it has in place to address the problem of sewage overflowing from the centralized septic tanks in the area; and

(c)of the measures that will be adopted to reduce the amount of untreated sewage discharged from the area to the sea before the commissioning of the sewage treatment works?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President, at present, Sham Tseng is an unsewered area. The current population is around 16 200. About 13 900 (86%) live in private residential developments which have their own sewage treatment facilities. The remaining 14% of the population live in about 350 village/squatter houses, of which only about 70 are connected to the two government communal septic tanks. To rectify the situation, a comprehensive sewerage scheme covering the Sham Tseng, Ting Kau and Tsing Lung Tau areas is now being implemented. The scheme includes the provision of a comprehensive network of sewers for collecting sewage from these areas for chemical treatment and disinfection in the sewage treatment works to be built in Sham Tseng, and a submarine outfall in Sham Tseng for the disposal of the treated sewage. The scheme has been implemented in stages since 1995. The Administration will be seeking funding approval from the Financial Committee in July 1999 to commence the construction of the main works in mid-2000. It is estimated that the whole sewerage scheme will be completed in 2004.

Our answers to the specific questions are:

(a)About 280 village/squatter houses in the Sham Tseng area do not have direct access to sewerage facilities or have limited sewerage facilities (for example, have septic tanks for treating toilet waste only).

(b)The Regional Services Department and the Architectural Services Department are responsible for the maintenance and operation of the two government communal septic tanks whereas the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) will ensure that their operation complies with the Water Pollution Control Ordinance (WPCO). According to the EPD, there was no record that the two government communal septic tanks have overflow problems. However, as these facilities were designed and constructed some 20 years ago, the Administration is implementing various improvement measures in the short term to enhance the treatment capacity and performance of these septic tanks, including more frequent removal of the sludge from these tanks and the provision of disinfection facilities. Subject to the outcome of public consultation which is currently being conducted, the construction of disinfection facilities will commence in late 1999 for completion by end 2000. When the sewerage scheme for Sham Tseng, Ting Kau and Tsing Lung Tau is completed in 2004, these communal septic tanks will be decommissioned.

(c)To provide interim relief to the pollution problem in the Sham Tseng area before the commissioning of the comprehensive sewerage scheme in 2004, the EPD, in collaboration with other relevant departments, has been implementing the Sham Tseng Nullah Action Plan. Under the Plan, the following measures have been taken:

(i)Strict enforcement against illegal or substandard discharge and non-compliance with the WPCO. In 1998, there were 13 convictions for non-compliance with the WPCO requirements in the Sham Tseng area. The EPD will continue its enforcement efforts to protect the Sham Tseng Nullah from further pollution.

(ii)Measures to stop the direct discharge of sewage from sources such as the Provisional Regional Council's public toilet, the refuse collection point and the temporary market at the Lower Sham Tseng Resite Village, into the nullah. This is achieved by constructing storage tanks at these facilities for temporary storage of sewage and sludge before they are collected for disposal. With the completion of the storage tanks in February 1999, sewage is no longer discharged into the nullah from the public toilets. Storage tanks are now being constructed at the refuse collection point and will be completed by June 1999. Works will also commence at the temporary market once a suitable site has been identified for the storage tank.

(iii)Installation of sand traps at the upper reach of the nullah by the Drainage Services Department (DSD). Also, the DSD has furnished the nullah with further concrete lining to prevent the accumulation of sediments on the riverbed and will carry out more frequent desilting operation.

Demand for Technology Professionals

16.MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a)whether it has assessed Hong Kong's demand for professionals in science and technology, engineering and information technology (technology professionals) over the next five years;

(i)if so, the details of such assessments; the respective estimated numbers of technology professionals in each of the categories to be provided by local tertiary institutions and to be imported;

(ii)if not, the reasons for that and whether it will assess the local demand for technology professionals in the short, medium and long terms; if so, when it will conduct the assessments; and

(b)how it will ensure that the size of admissions determined by various tertiary institutions for training these technology professionals will be in line with the local demand?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)From time to time, the Government and various training agencies carry out studies to assess the manpower requirements in different sectors. For instance, the Government has recently commissioned a consultancy study on the manpower and training needs of the Information Technology (IT) sector. This study reviews the current local manpower and training situation and undertakes an international comparison, with a view to identifying our manpower and training needs of the IT sector, and recommending a co-ordinated strategy. The study commenced in January 1999 and is expected to be completed in mid-1999. It is one of the studies undertaken by the Government to assess the manpower and training needs of key service industries in Hong Kong.

In addition, the Vocational Training Council (VTC), with the assistance of the Census and Statistics Department, periodically conducts manpower surveys of specific industries. In the past two years, surveys on six engineering-related industries were conducted and their findings were published. Meanwhile, we have engaged a consultancy to provide a qualitative and quantitative analysis of the manpower forecasting practices of major Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation and Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development economies and to critically assess their relative merits in terms of their application to Hong Kong. In the light of the outcome, we will refine our manpower forecasting models and conduct further studies on the manpower requirements and projections of key sectors including science and technology.

(b)The Government seeks to ensure that we have adequate human resources in terms of quantity and quality to meet the changing needs of society. At the tertiary level, we follow a triennial planning process. Before the planning for each triennium, the Government, in consultation with the University Grants Committee, determines the broad planning parameters. It also seeks advice from relevant departments and professional and business bodies on the likely need for student numbers in particular disciplines and, on the basis of these findings, stipulates specific manpower requirements for particular disciplines. At the technologist and technician level, the VTC has set up 18 training boards for different economic sectors. These boards, comprising leading professionals in the relevant sectors, advise the VTC, on which the Government is represented, on the manpower needs of the respective sectors and recommend how these needs may best be met. The survey findings mentioned in (a) above will also be taken into account by the VTC in formulating education and training programmes and student intakes.

Code of Conduct for Investment Advisers and Commodity Trading Advisers

17.MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Chinese): According to the Securities and Futures Commission's (SFC) 1997-98 Annual Report, a total of 197 Investment Advisers and 51 Commodity Trading Advisers were found to have breached the Code of Conduct in the course of routine inspections carried out by SFC during the year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it knows:

(a)the breakdown of the cases by the provisions in the Code of Conduct;

(b)how the SFC has followed up these cases; and whether the offenders have been penalized; if so, the details of the penalties imposed; and

(c)the ordinances under which the SFC can take disciplinary actions against the offenders?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)The Code of Conduct for persons registered with the SFC is a non-statutory guideline in accordance with which the SFC performs its function of ensuring that all registered persons are fit and proper in relation to the manner in which they conduct the business for which they are registered. The Code of Conduct highlights seven principles including honesty and fairness, diligence, capabilities, information about clients¹ , information for clients, conflict of interest and compliance. These principles have been developed and recognized by the International Organization of Securities Commissions and are fundamental to the undertaking of a registered person's business.

In the 1997-98 financial year, a total of 197 Investment Advisers and 51 Commodity Trading Advisers were found to have breached the Code of Conduct. Breakdown of number of breaches is as follows:

		Commodities
	Investment	Trading
	Advisers	Advisers
Information about clients1	26	2
Inadequate information Provided to clients relating to transactions conducted for them	15	7
Agreement signed by clients before providing advisory services to clients	42	10
Lax management supervision and weak internal control	61	15
Failure to comply with staff dealing policy laid down by the firm	38	8
Soft dollar policy2	14	-
Others	1	9
	197	51

(b)Follow-up actions in relation to breaches of Code of Conduct vary, depending on the nature of the breaches. If the suspected breaches compromise investor interests and/or market integrity, they will be pursued by the Enforcement Division or Licensing Department of the SFC. The Enforcement Division will carry out investigations, collect evidence to support prosecutions or instigate disciplinary proceedings under section 56 of the Securities Ordinance and section 33 of the SFC Ordinance in respect of misconduct by the relevant licensed intermediaries and advisers in the securities and futures markets.

Depending on the circumstances of each case, disciplinary actions could include revocation/suspension of registration, reprimand and prosecutions for breaches of the various laws administered by the SFC. Alternatively, the Licensing Department may carry out an enquiry under section 56 of the Securities Ordinance and section 33 of the SFC Ordinance. (Please refer to item (c) below for further details).

In the 1997-98 financial year, three cases of breaches in the Code of Conduct required further investigations. The remaining cases involved minor technical breaches where investor interests had not been prejudiced and "Letters of Deficiencies" were issued in respect of them. These letters require registrants to rectify the breaches and/or to improve their controls and systems as a matter of priority, and request a response within a specified timeframe in writing indicating proposed actions and a schedule of implementation for the remedial actions. Follow-up visits were also undertaken on a random sample basis to ensure proper implementation.

The approach adopted in relation to the majority of findings of rule breaches and/or non-compliance of regulatory codes and best practice standards has been remedial in nature to ensure that the intermediary population operates and is managed in accordance with the highest standards required to promote market integrity and to protect investors.

(c)Under section 56 of the Securities Ordinance (Cap. 333), the SFC is empowered to conduct an inquiry to determine whether a registered person under the Ordinance, including investment adviser, has been guilty of misconduct or whether the person is fit and proper for the purpose of registration with the SFC.

Furthermore, section 33 of the SFC Ordinance (Cap. 24) empowers the SFC to conduct investigations into the conduct of a person if it has reason to believe that that person may have committed a defalcation or other breach of trust, fraud or misfeasance in, inter alia, giving advice as regards the acquisition, disposal, purchase or sale or otherwise investing in any security or futures contracts.

The above two Ordinances also provide for disciplinary actions to be administered by the SFC.

Disclosure of E-mail Addresses

18.MR SIN CHUNG-KAI: Regarding the protection of privacy, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a)Internet electronic mail (e-mail) addresses are classified as personal data under the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance (Cap. 486); if not, the reasons for that;

(b)there are prohibitions on the disclosure of e-mail addresses to third parties without the authorization of the owners of e-mail addresses; if not, the reasons for that; and

(c)it is illegal, without the authorization of the owners of e-mail addresses, to sell directories of e-mail addresses or products containing e-mail addresses; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Madam President,

(a)An Internet e-mail address amounts to "personal data" as defined in the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance (PDPO) only if:

(i)it relates directly or indirectly to a living individual;

(ii)from the address, it is practicable to ascertain, directly or indirectly, the identity of the individual. For example, it may be practicable to identify the individual who holds an Internet service account if his e-mail address includes his actual name; and

(iii)it is in a form in which access to or processing of the data is practicable, for example, recorded in a printed document or a CD-Rom.

An e-mail address falls outside the definition of "personal data" if it does not meet one or more of the above criteria. For example, the e-mail address of a company does not amount to "personal data".

(b)The disclosure of e-mail addresses which amount to "personal data" is regulated under the PDPO. Pursuant to section 4 and Data Protection Principle 3 in Schedule 1 of the PDPO, a person shall not, without the voluntary and express consents of the owners of such addresses, disclose them to third parties unless the disclosure is, or is directly related to, the original purpose for which he collects the addresses. Disclosure of these addresses without the authorization of their owners may also be permitted if any of the exemption provisions under the PDPO applies, for example, where the disclosure is necessary for the prevention or detection of crimes.

Disclosure of information other than personal data is not subject to the restrictions imposed under the PDPO. Whether any authorization is required for the disclosure is a matter between the parties concerned.

All e-mail addresses of Internet service subscribers which are held by an Internet Service Provider (ISP), regardless of whether they amount to "personal data", are subject to the condition safeguarding confidentiality of customer information in the relevant licence issued by the Office of Telecommunications Authority. The licence condition prohibits an ISP from disclosing the addresses to third parties without the authorization of the owners of the addresses.

(c)It is a breach of the licence condition referred to in the preceding paragraph for an ISP to sell the e-mail addresses of its subscribers. Sanctions against an ISP for breach of licence conditions include financial penalty imposed by the Telecommunications Authority, suspension or revocation of licence.

On the other hand, for e-mail addresses which amount to "personal data", it is illegal, under the legislative provisions mentioned in the third paragraph above, for a person to sell them unless:

either

(i)the sale is, or is directly related to, the purpose for which he collects the addresses (please see example in the paragraph below); or

(ii)the owners of the addresses have given voluntary and express consents.

An example of (i) of the above paragraph is where e-mail addresses or products (such as CD-Roms) containing such addresses are sold by persons who collect them precisely for such purposes. Even though some of the addresses may amount to "personal data", the sale does not contravene the PDPO. However, if a buyer uses the addresses that are regarded as personal data for direct marketing purposes, he must comply with section 34 of the PDPO, the effect of which is that:

(i)the first time he uses the data, he must inform the addresses that they may opt not to receive any direct marketing message from him in future; and

(ii)if they so opt, he must stop sending them any such message.

Depending on the facts and circumstances of the case, a seller of e-mail addresses may also be subject to other legal liabilities. For example, if the addresses are copied from a directory and the person who owns the directory can establish that it is protected under intellectual property rights (such as copyrights), the seller will have infringed the intellectual property rights vested in the directory if he sells the copied addresses or the directory itself without the relevant licence or authorization.

Legal Aid Applications Relating to Medical Blunders

19.MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): Regarding legal aid applications to the Legal Aid Department (LAD) for pursuing legal actions against medical blunders, will the Government inform this Council, in respect of the past three years:

(a)of the number of applications received by the Department; the number of such cases in which legal aid was granted;

(b)of the average time taken by the Department to vet and approve each application; whether it has considered adopting measures to shorten the time required for processing such applications; and

(c)among the cases that were concluded, of

(i)the average time taken from making an application to the Department to the conclusion of the case;

(ii)the number of cases that were settled out of court;

(iii)the number of cases that were determined by the Court; the number of such cases where judgement was passed in favour of the plaintiffs; and

(iv)the number of cases where the plaintiffs were awarded compensation by the court, and the average

amount of compensation awarded to each plaintiff?

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): Madam President,

(a)In medical negligence cases, the scope of a Legal Aid Certificate is initially limited to obtaining medical records and expert opinion. If no evidence and expert opinion supporting a case of negligence is revealed, the Certificate will be discharged. If supporting evidence and expert opinion is available, the LAD will consider enlarging the scope of the Certificate to enable the case to proceed.

In the three years from 1996 to 1998, the LAD received 466 applications for legal aid in respect of potential medical negligence claims. During the same period, the LAD granted a total of 132 Legal Aid Certificates for the purpose of obtaining medical records and expert opinion.

(b)The processing of potential medical negligence claims usually takes much longer than other cases given the need to obtain medical records, and the difficulty in seeking expert opinion. In 1996, the LAD conducted a major process re-engineering exercise and initiated measures to reduce the time required for processing legal aid applications. The three years from 1996 to 1998 saw a gradual reduction of the processing time for potential medical negligence cases. In 1998, 52% of applications relating to medical negligence were processed within three months, as compared with only 45% and 42% in 1996 and 1997 respectively. The LAD is considering measures to expedite further the processing of applications.

(c)The position regarding medical negligence cases during the past three years is as follow:

(i)the complexity of medical negligence cases varied considerably and the time taken from the granting of Legal Aid Certificates for the purpose of obtaining medical records and expert opinion to the conclusion of the cases ranged from four months to 4.3 years. The cases which were successful in securing claims took two to four years to conclude, while those unable to proceed further owing to a lack of supporting evidence and expert opinion were discharged after a few months;

(ii)eight cases were settled out of court during this period;

(iii)none of the cases proceeded to trial during the period. As explained above, they were either discharged owing to a lack of supporting evidence and expert opinion, or settled out of court; and

(iv)of the eight cases settled out of court, the amount of compensation awarded to the plaintiffs ranged from $135,200 to $1,200,000 (five of these were within the range of $135,200 to $200,000).

Establishment of Business Co-ordination Offices in the Mainland

20.DR DAVID LI: It is reported that China is expected to join the World Trade Organization (WTO) this year, which may open up new business opportunities in the Mainland. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it will consider setting up business co-ordination offices in Beijing and other major cities to provide assistance to Hong Kong entrepreneurs in doing business in the Mainland?

SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam President, we strongly believe that the accession of China to the WTO will bring about more business opportunities for Hong Kong as well as other economies. We are following progress on China's accession talks with its trading partners closely and will take into account any latest developments in our examination of the implications of any final accession package on Hong Kong.

The Hong Kong Trade Development Council has over the years established a strong on-the-ground presence for Hong Kong businesses in the Mainland. Its 10 offices in major mainland cities, including Beijing, help Hong Kong companies explore market and business opportunities. Specifically, these offices promote Hong Kong products and services, help Hong Kong businessmen establish contacts and find distribution channels for their products, and collect and disseminate market information and business intelligence. When Hong Kong businessmen operating in the Mainland encounter problems, the offices will try their best to assist, for example, by referring the cases to the appropriate mainland authorities, organizing meetings with these authorities or providing information on legal and other professional services available that may help resolve the problems.

In addition, the Beijing Office of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government also monitors closely macro-economic developments in the Mainland, as well as changes to and introduction of trade policies, practices and measures affecting Hong Kong businessmen. The Trade Department disseminates such information to traders through trade circulars and regular liaison with trade associations.

We believe that the above set up is capable of accommodating greater demands on our services when China joins the WTO. We have no plan at this stage to create new business co-ordination offices in the Mainland, but will closely monitor the situation.

BILLS

First Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: First Reading.

VOLUNTEER AND NAVAL VOLUNTEER PENSIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

CLERK (in Cantonese): Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Pensions (Amendment) Bill 1999.

Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Second Reading.

VOLUNTEER AND NAVAL VOLUNTEER PENSIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that the Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Pensions (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Second time.

The purpose of the Bill is to simplify and streamline the procedures for revising the Volunteer and Naval Volunteer pension rates and to incorporate a new provision to allow back-dating of payments.

Under the Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Pensions Ordinance, pensions, gratuities and other allowances are paid in respect of the death, disablement or sickness of members of the two Volunteer forces who fought in the defence of Hong Kong during World War II.

Before June 1997, the pension rates were linked to the United Kingdom Order. This was removed, in 1997, through legislative amendments to incorporate the relevant provisions of the United Kingdom Order into the local Ordinance. Individual rates are now specified in the Schedules to the Ordinance. Members will recall that I have revised pension rates twice since July 1997, at the same rate as the civil service pension increase in the respective year.

To simplify the process, we propose to establish a formal link between adjustments to these pension rates and the annual revision of civil service pensions, so that for any adjustment made to pensions payable under the Pensions (Increase) Ordinance, the same percentage increase would normally apply to the rates specified under the Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Ordinance.

We further propose to introduce a back-dating provision in the Ordinance to enable the new rates to take effect on the same date as the effective date of the civil service pension increase, which in practice is 1 April each year.

If the annual pension increase follows that awarded to civil service pensioners, we propose that the Order should not be subject to the requirement that subsidiary legislation should be laid before this Council. This is because the gazette notice specifying the rate of increase to civil service pensioners is already subject to this procedure.

Madam President, I commend this Bill to Honourable Members.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Volunteer and Naval Volunteer Pensions (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Second time.

In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, the debate is now adjourned and the Bill referred to the House Committee.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999.

PREVENTION OF BRIBERY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 31 March 1999

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak? Please press the "Request-to-Speak" button and wait for your turn to speak.

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

PREVENTION OF BRIBERY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 7.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

PREVENTION OF BRIBERY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999

has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Prevention of Bribery (Amendment) Bill 1999.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL 1999

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 31 March 1999

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL 1999

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 36.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declared the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed. Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL 1999

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Administration Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999

has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that the Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 1999.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 11) BILL 1999

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 5 May 1999

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Bill: Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 11) BILL 1999

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 3.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedules 1 to 5.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedule 6.

SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that clause 4 of Schedule 6 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

This is purely a technical amendment arising from an omission in the previous Bill introduced to this Council, in order to replace the references to "the Legislative Council" in Chinese (立法局) in section 54(2) of the Copyright Ordinance with "立法會". I beg Members' support for the amendment. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 6 (see Annex IV)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Trade and Industry be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedule 6 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 11) BILL 1999

SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999

has passed through Committee with amendments. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Adaptation of Laws (No. 11) Bill 1999.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 10) BILL 1998

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 2 December 1998

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 10) BILL 1998

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 3.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedules 1, 3 and 4.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedule 2.

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam Chairman, I move that Schedule 2 be amended as set out in the paper circularized to Members.

According to Article 56 para 2 of the Basic Law, the Chief Executive shall consult the Executive Council before making any subordinate legislation. Given such a provision, this Bill originally proposes that in respect of the power of the Chief Executive to make subordinate legislation as empowered by the provisions of the principal legislation, any reference to the Governor shall be amended as the Chief Executive in Council. However, there is no clear distinction between an instrument which is a piece of subordinate legislation and one which is not. Hence, the disputes which arise cannot easily be settled.

To take forward the adaptation of laws scheme smoothly, we propose that a relatively mechanical approach shall be adopted in the amendment, that is, all references to the Governor shall be replaced by the Chief Executive, regardless of whether the making of subordinate legislation is involved. When the Chief Executive exercises his power to make subordinate legislation, the title of such pieces of subordinate legislation shall specify that the Executive Council has been consulted in accordance with the requirement of Article 56 para 2 of the Basic Law.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Proposed amendment

Schedule 2 (see Annex V)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by the Secretary for Financial Services be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Schedule 2 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 10) BILL 1998

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, the

Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998

has passed through Committee with amendments. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Adaptation of Laws (No. 10) Bill 1998.

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We will now resume the Second Reading debate on the Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999.

TAX RESERVE CERTIFICATES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 19 May 1999

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999.

Council went into Committee.

Committee Stage

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.

TAX RESERVE CERTIFICATES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1, 2 and 4 to 10.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 3.

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Chairman, I move that clause 3 be amended as set out in my name in the paper circularized to Members.

The amendment aims at vesting the authority to make rules in respect of the conditions of maintenance of electronic accounts in the Secretary for the Treasury, instead of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, as proposed in the Bill. The amendment is proposed in response to an observation made by the Legal Service Division of the Legislative Council Secretariat to clarify such rule-making power under the legislation. As the Secretary for the Treasury is already empowered under the Tax Reserve Certificates Ordinance to make rules under the Ordinance, the amendment will ensure that similar rule-making power is vested in the same public officer.

Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 3 (see Annex VI)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Secretary for the Treasury be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese):I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese):Clause 3 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese):I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.

Council then resumed. 　

Third Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.

TAX RESERVE CERTIFICATES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: President, the

Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999

has passed through Committee with amendments. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999 be read the Third time and do pass.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Tax Reserve Certificates (Amendment) Bill 1999.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions. Two motions with no legislative effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have up to 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies. Other Members will each have up to seven minutes for their speeches.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First motion: Problem of Youngster Gangs.

PROBLEM OF YOUNGSTER GANGS

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed on the Agenda.

First of all, I would like to thank the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung and LAW Chi-kwong. They had suggested some amendments to my original motion initially before we reached a consensus after some discussions. In the motion which I am now moving, I have included their views and so they have decided not to introduce any amendments. I wish to thank the two of them here again. I hope that Members can give unanimous support to my motion so that the Government will be more concerned about our suggestions and take them into serious consideration. In the end, I hope that the problem of youngster gangs in Hong Kong can be resolved.

Last year, all of us in Hong Kong were shocked to learn about the gory details of the trial of a youngster gang for the killing of a peer and the burning of his body. The event that took place in Sau Mau Ping indeed revealed the extremely cruel manner in which these youngsters killed the victim. Later on, there were the case of the battering of a girl in Tseung Kwan O by another group of youngsters, and other acts of violence like what happened to a Korean child who was almost pushed down the Mass Transit Railway tracks. All these have made people realize that the Sau Mau Ping case is not an isolated one, and that the problem of youngster gangs is indeed a serious social problem. These gangs are especially active in old urban areas and remote new towns such as To Kwa Wan, Sau Mau Ping, Wong Tai Sin, Tuen Mun and Lam Tin. We cannot afford to ignore them.

The Liberal Party is happy to hear Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, the Chief Executive, stress at the question and answer session of this Council on 6 May that the Government was very concerned about the problem of youngster gangs. I hope that the various government departments can listen carefully to the speeches made by Honourable Members in this motion debate and the proposals they make. Together let us work out some effective measures to protect the development of our young people.

Why do young people who should be well-protected by their families and educated in schools turn into gangs, and loiter and fight on the streets? The cause for this is very complicated. Some people put the blame on the inadequacies of family education. Some people attribute this to the failure of the education system. Others blame the media and the breakdown of moral values in society. But I think the family, school and society all have a part to play in making young people become gangsters. They cannot shift the burden to one another. If there are no such phenomena as instability in the family, the emergence of numerous single-parent families, the negligence of parents in disciplining their children, the young people will not leave their homes. If the education system is not that rigid and fossilized, and if teaching is not delivered so badly, there will not be so many dropouts. There will not be any youngster gangs in schools. If the media are not filled with so much sex and violence, and that our society is not that materialistic, then the young people will not be inclined to settle their scores by fighting and be prepared to do anything just to get what they want.

As there are many causes leading to the formation of youngster gangs, to tackle the problem effectively, we cannot afford to leave the task to just any party. The Government, the school, the family, the media and the various voluntary agencies must co-operate to devise effective measures. Since the young people are the future pillars of our society, these young people today will shape society tomorrow. Their future is closely tied with that of society. In moving a motion debate on behalf of the Liberal Party on the problem of youngster gangs in this Council, I hope that it will serve to encourage Honourable Members, regardless of their political affiliations, to give more thoughts to the issue and to offer their suggestions.

The Liberal Party has proposed an eight-point package of measures to resolve the problem of youngster gangs, the details of which are listed in the motion. As the time for making speeches is limited, it is not possible for me to go over each one of them. My colleagues from the Liberal Party will speak more on that later. Here, I wish to explain the basic beliefs behind these proposals.

First of all, the Liberal Party thinks that the increasingly serious problem of youngster gangs is not only due to the insufficient input of public resources. A more important point is how best we can improve the use of the existing public resources to achieve the greatest benefits. It is true that the input of more resources to improve the ratio of school social workers to students will help alleviate the problem to a certain degree, but I think that there should be closer ties and co-operation between the social service organizations, the schools and the police. Some friends of mine, wo are social workers themselves, told me that if the schools would inform them before expelling those students whom they thought were beyond remedy, they could make some last-ditch efforts to counsel these students and there might be a turn for the better. Even if these problem students are expelled from school in the end, at least the social workers can follow up the cases immediately, by helping them deal with their situation upon expulsion. Or if the police, after arresting members of these youngster gangs and giving them a reprimand, can refer these young people to the local youth service agencies for follow-up action, then it will help to provide some counselling service to these youngsters. This mode of communication and co-operation between different departments and organizations can also be used in counselling the families of these young people other than the young people themselves. At present, when outreaching social workers contact the families of these youngster gang members to find out their family background and to counsel them, it is very likely that they will refuse to co-operate. If the police can be involved in this, the family members are likely to be more co-operative. So it can be seen that the co-operation between different service units is very important. The first proposal raised in my motion is to strengthen the communication and co-operation among the police, schools and social service agencies to forge a partnership relationship among them.

The second basic belief of the Liberal Party is that both punishment and reward must be used to teach these youngsters at risk. It is unquestionable that the idea of rehabilitation is the prevailing trend of the world today. We are all convinced that we should not give up so readily on those who have committed offences. They should be given a chance to correct their mistakes and lead a new life through the provision of counselling and rehabilitation services. However, we should not rule out the effect of punishment. An appropriate scheme of penalties will achieve a deterrent effect on the offenders and it can help maintain social order.

Therefore, the last item in the eight-point proposal made by the Liberal Party is that the Government should examine whether the penalties currently imposed on young offenders are appropriate and whether heavier penalties are needed. Under the existing laws, infants under seven years of age are exempted from prosecution and indictment. Compared to other countries, this age of criminal liability is relatively lower. The laws of Hong Kong prohibit the imprisonment of offenders the age group of seven to 14, and for offenders of the age of 14 to 16, they will be put into prison only when there is no other more appropriate way to deal with them. In general, we have a very lenient approach to deal with young offenders. We hope that young people will not have their future ruined due to one mistake which they make. It is unquestionably well-intended, but have we ever thought that the leniency of the law is gradually being exploited as a protective umbrella for young offenders? Some unlawful elements in society are making use of this gap in law to induce youngsters to sell counterfeit or pirated commodities, to collect debts for loan sharks through various intimidation methods, or even engage in drug trafficking. Therefore, the Liberal Party hopes to find a balance between punishment and reward.

Third, the Liberal Party is convinced that the rule of law is a cornerstone of society. Building a sense of abiding by the law among the young people is a vital step to uphold law and order. Currently some young people only have a very blurred sense of right and wrong. They do not respect the law and they do not think that unlawful things are strictly prohibited. They will make up an excuse that they can do things unlawful provided that these are not heinous crimes like murder and arson. So we find young people are inclined to committing offences like shoptheft (or commonly called shoplifting), and they will abuse soft drugs. For they think that stealing goods worth a few dollars is nothing serious, and that soft drugs like flunitrazepam and triazolam are only tablets that can be taken like any vitamins, unlike heroin and opium. This kind of mentality which does not rightfully respect the law and which compromises its legitimacy is indeed scary. Therefore, I suggest that the schools should enhance education on ethics, morality and the rule of law.

The fourth basic belief of the Liberal Party is that a normal and disciplined life is an effective means of preventing young people from going astray. Should their life lack any purpose and order and that they are at a loss to find something meaningful to do, it would be useless even if we provide them with youth centres and counselling services. Therefore, the Liberal Party is very much concerned about the problem of employment for youths having left school. We know that for the past decade, the unemployment rate of youths from the age of 15 to 29 has always been higher than that of the rest of the population. Since 1999, the unemployment rate of youth from 15 to 19 has reached two digits. This disparity between the youths unemployment rate and the overall unemployment rate has been widening in the wake of the financial turmoil. According to the latest figures from the Census and Statistics Department, the unemployment rate among youth of the age group of 15 to 19 for the first quarter is 23%, which is 16.7% higher than the overall unemployment of 6.3%. In a few months, there will be a few dozen thousands more Secondary Five and Seven graduates entering the job market; it will be a very dangerous thing if these people are not able to find a job which can take care of their daily needs.

As a matter of fact, many foreign countries are facing the same problem of youth unemployment. In Australia, the policy is to provide through the state governments some temporary jobs for the school-leavers who are unable to find a job. Such temporary jobs include planting trees and the management of parks. Those who join the scheme are given basic allowance in food and transportation. This is effective in preventing the young people from idling and losing the incentive to work during the time when they are looking for a job. I suggest that our Government can consider this and offer some temporary and non-professional jobs to the young people such as those relating to the management of country parks and the preparation and promotion of elections.

Madam President, the Central Government has recently presented two great pandas to us as a gift. Pandas are regarded as national treasures. They are highly regarded and welcome by the people of Hong Kong. But our treasures are not the pandas alone; the people are our treasures. Our future is closely tied with our young people. They are holding the future of Hong Kong in their hands. We must therefore try our best to protect them and make sure that they grow up healthily. Not only must we solve the problem of youngster gangs at its roots, we must also help the young people grow into persons capable of making contribution to society.

With these remarks, I beg to move.

Mr HO Sai-Chu moved the following motion:

"That, in view of the increasing seriousness of the problem of youngster gangs, this Council urges the Government to thoroughly examine the causes of the problem and adopt a comprehensive package of measures to protect the development of young people, including:

(a)strengthening the communication and co-operation among the police, schools and social service agencies to ensure that youngsters at risk and their families can receive proper care and counselling, including conducting educational programmes for parents to instil into them knowledge in family education and to urge them to attach importance to the care and education of their children and, at the same time, extending to other districts in Hong Kong the various schemes being implemented in some districts for youngsters at risk;

(b)facing up to the unemployment problem among young people and providing temporary jobs for the unemployed youths as far as possible;

(c)building the newly-developed and re-developed communities into multi-stratum communities through town planning, and adopting measures to prevent the emergence of crime blackspots in these communities;

(d)determining the quantity and scale of youth service facilities in various districts flexibly after taking into full account the uniqueness of individual communities, such as their demographic structures and geographical locations;

(e)enhancing the education on ethics, morality and the rule of law in schools, and strengthening teacher training in these regards, as well as introducing diversified curricula to provide more choices and development opportunities for students with different aptitudes;

(f)implementing expeditiously the target of one social worker serving one school;

(g)reviewing the current classification system and standards for printed publications with a view to preventing young people from being affected by publications containing violence and pornography, as well as adopting a classification system for electronic games containing violence and pornography; and

(h)examining whether the penalties currently imposed on young criminals are appropriate, and strengthening rehabilitation services to assist them in developing a healthy way of living and reforming themselves."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr HO Sai-chu, as set out on the Agenda, be passed.

Does any Member wish to speak?

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to use a few words to describe my feeling toward the topic of today's motion, that is, I am deeply grieved. Just like me, I believe many Honourable colleagues sitting here have children. We all hope that our children will study hard, be obedient and have a bright future when they grow up. However, when we see the new generation or the behaviour of youngsters at risk, we are left speechless. As parents, how can we not feel deeply grieved?

The problem of youngster gangs is aggravating each day. The behaviour of these stormy youths are often like bombs, the destructiveness of which is unpredictable. In addition to the world-shocking campus shootings which happened more than once just earlier on in the United States, the Hong Kong case of a youngster gang burning the corpse of its victim makes us realize that, no matter where and in which society, stormy youths have apparently become a dangerous clan in today's world. Therefore, I think the Government must draw up a comprehensive strategy as soon as possible, and parents should all the more address the seriousness of the problem squarely and make concerted efforts to help pull these youngsters at risk back on to the right tracks.

Why do I stress that parents must address the seriousness of the problem squarely? It is because I have seen with my own eyes many youth problems start in families which lack warmth and parental care. In such families, the children begin by disrespecting their parents and other seniors, then they become sentimentally detached from their families. When a kid rots and sets foot on the crooked path, he must have troubles which have been brewing for some time. Such a deviated path is often the result produced directly or indirectly by adults. Therefore, I always remind parents that they should spend more time to communicate and show concern for their children, and try to understand that their children's annoying or even unruly behaviour may only be means to attract attention. What the children desperately need are the care and love of their parents.

I understand that it is of course not at all an easy task to pull the problem youths back on to the right tracks, but some parents do indeed care very much for their children. Last week a single mother committed suicide in a bid to remonstrate with her son; that was very moving. While the role of parents is important, the Government cannot look on with folded arms and must take appropriate measures. I support many of the proposals put forward in the motion today. There are a few points which I would particularly like to talk about and supplement.

First of all, schools should reduce the teacher-student ratio so that teachers can be able to take care of the psychological and moral developments of students. Once problems are identified, teachers can contact the parents at once and the two parties can co-operate to rectify the students' misbehaviour. Although the community has all along been calling for "one social worker serving one school", but it has yet to materialize to date. How can one social worker deal with more than 2 000 students? While he attends to one thing, he will definitely lose sight of another. The Government must enhance the resources for the employement of more school-based and outreaching social workers.

Moreover, the Government should monitor stringently indecent cartoons and films depicting excessive violence and sex. The emergence of youngster gangs in Hong Kong is closely related to the youths' inclination to imitate the so-called "heroes" in films and the so-called "big brothers" in cartoons. In fact, many television programmes have to be improved as well lest they should exercise bad influence upon the younger generation. Recently, a social worker told me it was quite often that youngster gangs made great noise or trouble in housing estates but police officers on patrol would not stop them instantly, which further encouraged their misbehaviour. If this was true, then I would be really surprised. I think police officers should pay particular attention to such gangs and give play to the co-operation between the police and the community in order to ensure security for society. It will be of significant help if the police try best to crack down on the activities of youngster gangs and make them realize that the police will not connive at criminals.

Many countries would encourage their senior high school students to participate in community service and spend half a day weekly to take part in social work within their capability. For example, they can visit hospitals to talk to convalescent elderly patients or do voluntary work at libraries so as to foster an intention to serve the community and gradually nurture confidence in this respect as well as an affection for society. I believe this is a more direct method to help youngsters nurse a kind heart. Therefore, if problems can be faced squarely and prevented at an earlier stage, many tragedies may well be avoided. I do not believe these kids are natural born killers or are inherently provocative or destructive. The ancient sage Confucius said, "Man is born good". Therefore, these young people turning into unwelcome elements of the society is not the work of a single day.

I profoundly believe that it is not difficult to find out the crux of the problem of youngster gangs, and I also trust that these stray youths, if counseled and aided properly, can go back on to the right tracks. Parents' intimate concern and family education are always the most fundamental solutions. Parents should never over-simplify the issue and overlook the seriousness of the youngster gang problem. The community should also give them a chance to reform themselves instead of discriminating against them.

For the sake of our next generation, with these remarks, I highly support today's motion. Thank you, Madam President.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, while many surveys show that the problem of younster gangs in Hong Kong is deteriorating, there is also a new tendency that the gang members are getting younger, more female members are involved and the crimes are more violent. Malignities such as youngster gang burning the corpse of its victim, youngster gang sexually assaulting female peers and students beating up their teachers are particularly ghastly. All these reflect the failure of our family education, school education, media eduation and the plight of our social work services. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) urges the Government to address the problem squarely and expeditiously formulate a comprehensive and effective policy to suppress the trend of constant aggravation of the youngster gang problem in order to protect the healthy growth of our youths.

In the course of formulating the policy, I think we must adhere to two principles. The first principle is "prevention is always better than remedy". The Government should focus its work on preventive services. Although counselling and services for problem students and families are indispensable, counselling and services for ordinary students and families which aim at preventing and reducing the likelihood of their becoming problem students and families are more important as this will tackle the problem at root.

The second principle is "everybody should care for the growth of our youths". The factors closely relating to the growth of youths are mainly the parents, school, social worker and the mass media. To solve the problem of youngster gangs, we have to start with family education, school education, media education and social services which are also known as "three education and one service". We have to ensure that everybody takes up his responsibility so that the problem can be addressed from different angles and that both temporary and permanent remedies can be effected for a thorough solution.

Since we have already talked a lot about the roles of schools and social workers, today I will focus more on the family and mass media and discuss their responsibilities in terms of preventing the problem of youngster gangs.

Madam President, it is parents' common wish that their children will have a bright future. However, the negligence towards family education, over leniency or poor discipline in family life are also common problems among local parents. A survey conducted by the Caritas Integrated Service for Young People in March this year showed that when young people were troubled by youngster gangs, most of their parents did not know anything about it. Moreover, many surveys also reveal that, in Hong Kong, the time for communication and dialogue between parents and their children is very limited, or even extremely insufficient. Many experts have pointed out the principal cause for the problem of youngster gangs is insufficient family education. In the case of a youngster gang burning the corpse of its victim in Sau Mau Ping, Mr Justice WONG stated that the fundamental cause for the youth violence problem was the negligence towards family education. Parents have not instilled into their children adequate moral values. When some of the defendants' parents saw their own children were given heavy sentences and ordered to imprisonment, they bitterly regretted their negligence towards educating them. From this we can see how important family education is to the healthy growth of youths. The old saying is right: "The lack of education reflects the fault of the father, the relaxation of education reflects the laziness of the teacher". Parents are not only responsible for the upbringing of their children, but are also responsible for their education. Parents cannot just wash their hands of the business and shift all the responsibilities of education onto schools and teachers. Of course, many parents are willing to take up the responsibility of educating their children, but some of them complain that they do not how, and others do it in a wrong or ineffective way. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Government to enhance the support for parents and provide them with training and education. Through parent-children relationship courses, the Government can instil into them knowledge in family education and help them understand more as to how to get along with their children and solve the problems between parents and children. The Government should also step up the publicity in this respect and urge parents to attach importance to the care and education of their children so that family education can be "more purposeful, powerful and useful".

In recent years, in order to raise the parents' standard and ability to develop family education, the education authority of the Mainland has set up a number of parent schools to popularize and instil into parents the relevant knowledge in education. These projects have achieved certain results and it is worthwhile to draw on their experience.

I am very happy to note that the Honourable HO Sai-chu has included the importance of family education in his motion.

Madam President, the mass media have a great influence on the mental growth of youths. If we dodge the role and responsibility of the mass media when we talk about the problem of youngster gangs, we can never solve the problem just as we can never get blood from a stone. The case of a youngster gang burning the corpse of its victim has disclosed the poisoning effect of violence cartoons and films on the youths. The campus shooting incident in Colorado, United States further confirms the negative impact of violence culture on adolescents. At present, in order to increase their circulation, certain mass media play up pornography, violence and indecency excessively. While this practice offsets the effect of school and family education, it further damages the mentality of youths and is extremely counter-productive to the promotion of a healthy way of living for the youths. The mass media workers should reflect on this. As the social conscience and a public tool of society, the mass media are duty-bound to care for the growth of our youths. How should the mass media discharge their social responsibility and suppress unscrupulous reporting practices? All these of course rely on the self-discipline of the media themselves. However, does that mean the Government has nothing to do then? I do not think so. The Government can enhance the professional training for mass media workers so as to raise their ethics. Through selections of outstanding mass media workers and exhibitions of outstanding publications and television programmes, the mass media can be encouraged to care more for youths and provide them with positive influence. The Government can further step up the mass media education for adolescents and enhance their analytical and appreciative ability of media programmes. It can also make use of the market mechanism and forces to monitor and check the dissemination of indecency and obscenity by the mass media.

As for school education, the DAB proposes that the Government should strengthen the moral education and reduce the workload of class masters so that they may have more time for communication with students and family visits. With regard to social workers, the DAB supports the expeditious implementation of the target of "one social worker serving one school" in order to enhance the social worker support services for students.

With these remarks, I support Mr HO Sai-chu's motion on behalf of the DAB. Thank you, Madam President.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, murder, burning of corpses, sadism, planting of bombs and so on are crimes already shocking enough even when they are committed by cold-blooded thugs. But in recent years, in Hong Kong, quite a number of crimes belonging to these categories have been committed by teenagers aged between 15 and 16. So, while we are definitely shocked and scared, we cannot help asking, "What have gone wrong with our youngsters?"

Some people may perhaps think that the crimes of corpse burning in Sau Mau Ping and fireworks bombs in Fanling were just some extreme and isolated cases. And, for this reason, they may think, we really should not overreact and panic too much. But I think there are many different signs that the problem of youngster gangs is getting increasingly serious.

Madam President, the problem of youngster gangs is of course related to some long-standing causes such as bad family and social influences. But we must not thus overlook a new negative factor which has added fuel to the problem. This factor is the unemployment problem faced by youngsters. According to the figures supplied by the Task Force on Employment, in the first quarter of this year, the unemployment rate of the 15 to 19 age group was as high as 23%, meaning a total of 18 000 persons. In other words, one in four of our youngster workforce was unemployed. This is indeed a very worrying phenomenon. Besides, a survey conducted by a youth organization recently shows that as much as 80% of the employers who responded to the survey held a somewhat negative attitude towards young employees. They thought that young employees in general did not have any sense of commitment and belonging to their employers, and that they lacked any independent and mature thinking and patience, thinking always about material benefits. Such an attitude has undoubtedly added to the employment difficulties faced by young people.

Actually, because of the generally difficult employment situation and employers' negative attitude, it is already difficult enough for ordinary secondary school-leavers to secure any jobs. So, it can be imagined that it will be even more difficult for youngsters with low qualifications, behavioural problems and even criminal records to find any jobs. But the point is that when these young people are forced to idle around with no income, they will very often misbehave or even join triad societies to engage in criminal activities. This has aggravated the problem of youngster gangs.

Conventional vocational training and retraining or the provision of temporary jobs cannot possibly solve this problem; they can at best provide a short-term relief only. The reason is that these youths at risk actually need much more than "occupation skills" or "job-seeking techniques". For this reason, we must assist them in establishing a conviction that they must work pragmatically and honestly for material returns and have confidence in themselves. But the expertise required by this type of counselling work is definitely wanting in the Labour Department or the various training bodies. Nor is this type of counselling within their scope of responsibilities. Therefore, I propose that the Government should join hands with the various training bodies and youth counselling organizations, so as to design an integrated employment counselling scheme for these youngsters at risk. It is hoped that such a scheme can cater for their specific needs and enable them to follow the proper path of the rest of the community again.

Madam President, if we are to tackle the problem of youngster gangs at source and prevent youngsters from going astray, we must not overlook the role played by school education. Through school education, we can equip youngsters with the knowledge required and instil in them the proper values. Unfortunately, the schools in our mainstream education system have hitherto focused only on academic performance, as reflected in both their teaching methods and medium of instruction. All non-academic achievements, including those of sports and the arts, are not accepted as the criteria of assessing student performance. The heavy bias towards academic performance has made youngsters with little academic inclination lose their interest in studying, thus leading to a myriad of behavioural problems. And, since these youngsters cannot receive any recognition from their schoolmates and teachers, they will inevitably lose their sense of belonging to their schools. When these youngsters feel deserted by and alienated from their schools, they may form youngster gangs or even join the triad societies to seek recognition. This is a very likely result, though we all very much hate to see it. And, when this happens, even if we focus on our school education and try to equip them with knowledge and the proper values necessary for protecting them against the bad influences of society, all our efforts will be wasted.

Therefore, I maintain that the Government should promptly explore the possibility of promoting the development of different types of schools and curriculums, so as to provide opportunities for students with different inclinations, levels of performance and potentials and enable them to give full play to their talents. This can train up different types of talents for Hong Kong on the one hand, and save the many school children who are now on the verge of going astray on the other, because by instilling in them a greater sense of belonging to their schools, we will be able to prevent them from forming youngster gangs, from becoming the "new recruits" of crime syndicates.

The problem of youngster gangs has already sounded the alarm. If the authorities concerned still refuse to address it properly by taking positive actions, the problem is bound to worsen, to get out of our control.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion. MR KENNETH TING (in Cantonese): Madam President, my remarks will focus mainly on the education and employment aspects of the youngster gang problem, and I will also suggest some solutions.

As pointed out by quite a number of youth workers and research findings, many young people join youngster gangs basically because they have too much idle time after dropping out from school; as they have nothing to do, they will fall prey to youngster gangs very easily.

And, as shown by facts, children belonging to youngster gangs are mostly jobless youngsters or school drop-outs. They are the losers in our education system, the outcasts of our school system. Moreover, following the restructuring of our economy, and with the impact of the financial turmoil, there has been a drastic decrease in job opportunities for youngsters. As youngsters have nothing to do, they will go astray easily and become members of youngster gangs.

The Liberal Party is of the view that if we are to solve the problem of youngster gangs, we must do something with our education and employment policies. For education, we suggest that the Government should introduce a wider variety of school curriculums, so as to give students more choices and raise their interest in learning.

At present, students who drop out from school before completing Secondary Three can apply for admission to some special schools like practical schools and skills opportunity schools. There are now four practical schools and seven skills opportunity schools in Hong Kong, offering a total of 3 900 places. But the number of such school places are far from being able to cater adequately for the needs of the young people in all districts. For this reason, the Government should set up more such schools in those districts where the problem of youngster gangs is serious, so as to ensure, as far as possible, that youngsters who have dropped out from conventional schools can continue their studies in the same districts as before.

In addition, the Government should enhance the education on ethics, moral conduct and obedience to the law in our schools, and it should also provide teacher training in these respects. Our young people do not have a strong respect for the law, and they generally do not have a proper set of values which can enable them to distinguish between right and wrong. So, the Education Department should enhance the module on respect for the law in the curriculum on ethics, so as to make our young people more law-abiding.

Let me now turn to the problem of unemployment. For a very long time, the unemployment problem faced by our young people has been a headache for our community. According to government statistics, in the first quarter of this year, the unemployment rate of the 15 to 19 age group was 23 %, which was 16.7% higher than the overall unemployment rate of 6.3%. The total number of unemployed young people was 18 000, and one third of them had remained jobless for half a year or more. The Liberal Party thinks that the Government should provide more temporary jobs for these unemployed youngsters, so as to enable them to find jobs more quickly and integrate into society again.

The provision of job opportunities for unemployed youngsters is one thing. What is more important, however, is that the Government must do its best to instil in our young people a sense of responsibility.

Young people nowadays change their jobs very frequently, and this is in marked contrast to their elder generations who were usually willing to work hard and learn. A survey conducted by the Young Women Christian Association shows that more than half of the employers who completed the questionnaire held a rather negative attitude towards the stability, patience, independence, maturity and sense of responsibility of their young employees. And, about 80% of these employers viewed that young employees should seek to enhance their sense of responsibility. Madam President, before the industrial sector can provide any effective training for young employees, the latter must first cultivate a sense of responsibility towards their respective trades and employers. Therefore, if we want our young people to contribute to our economic development, the Government and educational institutions must do all they can to cultivate their sense of responsibility.

Another factor inducing young people to join youngster gangs is that they find the life as a gang member rich and colourful. But why is it impossible for our school education to offer the same attraction to young people? Craftsmanship is required to turn a piece of jade into jewel, as the saying goes. Since each and every youngster is a valuable asset of our community, the Government should provide full-scale assistance to our problem youngsters. That way, once they can find their proper places in school and at work, they will not go astray and do any harm to society.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Boys' and Girls' Clubs Association has recently conducted a survey, the findings of which, I must say, are really very, very alarming. The findings show not only that the age of youngster gang members is getting younger, but also that even a 14-year-old can become a "big brother". This may well be a time-bomb for our society, one of the many factors causing social instability. I agree that counselling bodies can certainly play a positive role and help youngster gang members go back to the right track. But social work is after all remedial in nature. So, what we must also do is to perfect the mechanisms of protecting children and youngsters or else we are bound to see more and more "少年陳浩南" in our real life.

In order to perfect the mechanisms concerned, the Government will need to address several problems. As is also mentioned in the motion, we need to review the current classification system and standards for printed publications, and we also need to adopt a classification system for electronic games containing violence and pornography. I wish to say a few words on these issues on behalf of the Democratic Party.

Madam President, over the past six months or so, I have been reading a lot of comic strips with triad themes. But of course I am not attracted by their plots; rather, I simply want to find out why our young people like reading them so much. Well, as I have now found out, many of these comic strips feature precisely some young gang leaders who spend almost all their time on fighting, "gang quarrels", drug trafficking, indecent assaults and gang rapes. All frames in these comic strips depict violence, and their characters all speak vulgar language. What is so hard to understand is that these comic strips are still classified by the Obscene Articles Tribunal as Category I publications under the existing criteria. In other words, these comic strips are classified as publications which can be read by all people at any time they like, whether they are three years old or 80 years old. I do not intend to challenge the decision of the Tribunal, because after all it is a judicial institution. But I still have to say that if the classification standards of our laws are not clear enough, the assessment decisions of the Tribunal can at best be the reflections of such unclear classification standards only.

Madam President, the classification standards contained in the existing Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance are extremely loose. Category I articles can be read by all people. For Category II articles, they can be read by people aged 18 or above only, and they must be wrapped in plastic bags with words of warning. Category III articles are prohibited publications. Publications will usually be classified under either Category I or Category II, unless they contain extremely perverted contents or serious violations of social moral standards. I understand that in practice, publications will usually be classified under Category I, as long as they do not depict any human sexual organs. Some comic strip writers indeed know these classification standards very well and have tried to capitalize on them; they have produced many downright erotic comic strips, confident that as long as they stop short of depicting any human sexual organs, their works will still be classified as Category I publications. These classification standards are obviously out-dated. Recently, a comic book with "輪大米" as its theme has been published, but surprisingly, it is still classified under Category I. Madam President, "輪大米" is a triad jargon, meaning "gang rape". If comic strips of this kind are ever produced for the screen, they will certainly be classified under Category IIA or IIB, or even Category III. I know that the Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority is currently reviewing the relevant legislation. The Democratic Party is of the view that while we should retain the existing mechanism of "censorship" upon complaint for printed publications, we should also reform the existing classification standards for publications and bring them into line with the three-category system under the Film Censorship Ordinance. We think that this is the only way to avoid public confusion over the two censorship systems and to assist the consumer in knowing the rough classifications of printed publications. This is especially important to parents. At present, they may think that it is all right for their children to read Category I publications. But they do not know that after reading all these so-called "suitable-for-all-ages" publications or comic strips, their children may have already fallen into the world of bloodshed and violence, or the realm of pervertion and eroticism.

Madam President, yes, we really need to amend the existing classification standards for printed publications. But we must also remember that there are in fact countless different forms of language and graphic communications. So, besides printed publications, we must pay attention to electronic games as well. As it is worded, the motion does not state clearly whether it is referring to electronic games in games centres or home electronic games such as those made for Game Boy. We are not too worried about the former kind of electronic games, because, at present, persons under the age of 18 are prohibited by law from entering any games centres except those especially designated for children. We are instead worried about the latter kind of electronic games. There is no classification system for home games, but this does not mean that all these games are wholesome. Many Members sitting in this Chamber are no longer young, and I thus believe that the electronic games they know and used to play are nothing but Pacman and Flies Killers (打烏蠅). They may not be aware that electronic games have already entered the stage of role play games and nurturing games. Just look at the primary school students around us, and we will see that most of them are each carrying several Digimonpendulum (數碼暴龍) with them. This can show us that a tide of violent fervour has already infiltrated our younger generations. In all these electronic games, the player is invariably required to give continuous nourishment and energy to the protagonists to make them grow, and the protagonists will have to pass through different stages of challenges in the midst of fightings against their enemies. Some of the scenes are rather bloody, literally depicting broken heads and bones. Since youngsters are continuously exposed to violence in these electronic games during their formative years, we are worried that they may come to regard violence as nothing wrong and inhuman. The campus shootings occurring in the United States last month, in which some youngsters shot indiscriminately at their schoolmates, are a vivid live version of these electronic games. If we allow such a tide of violent fervour to spread among our young people so openly, Hong Kong is bound to become yet another city of violence. That is why I think that the Government should try to introduce a classification system for home electronic games.

Madam President, once we have drawn up the classification standards for printed publications and electronic games, the Government should then turn to articles which are classified as not to be used by persons under 18, and consider whether or not the sale of these articles should be restricted to licensed shops. The Democratic Party views that the introduction of a classification system is only one of the means to protect youngsters. We must at the same time reduce our youngsters' exposure to violence and sex by making sure that they cannot buy the articles concerned whenever they like at news-stands and shops. Restricting the sale of these articles to licensed shops will be a very effective means to achieve this end.

My final point is that while the Government should do its job, parents should also pay attention to what their children are reading and playing. They should communicate more with their children and give them appropriate guidance. This is the only way to effectively protect youngsters against the influences of violence and pornography.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the motion. MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, all societies have to depend on their younger generations for sustaining and furthering their development and progress. In this sense, young people are indeed the future pillars of our society. For this reason, there is indeed a need for Hong Kong to enhance its education for young people in relation to morality, intellect, sports, social skills and aesthetics, and this must be treated seriously as an important task in the course of our future development. The youngster gang problem has recently turned increasingly serious, showing that there are indeed many problems with our work of bringing up and educating our young people. This really calls for the concern of the entire community.

The work of educating our youngsters is in fact a common task which should be shared by our schools, families and society as a whole. The respective roles played by these three parties are equally important and indispensable. For this reason, they must all do their very best and must not try to evade their responsibilities. And, when we examine the causes of youth problems, we must not oversimplify the matter and lay the all blame on any single, individual party.

The school and the family are the main places where young people learn and live their daily life. So, teachers and parents do indeed play a very crucial role in educating our youngsters. Besides teaching, class masters in primary and secondary schools are also supposed to provide counselling to the students in their classes. But the fact is that most of these class masters have not been trained to provide youth counselling; in particular, most of them are not familiar with the special techniques and systematic approach required for handling problem students. As a result, they have to rely on their own individual experience. Worse still, their teaching workload is not any lighter than their colleagues who are not class masters, which is why they are often unable to spare any reasonable amount of time and efforts to help their students overcome their learning and other difficulties, let alone conduct any home visit and the like to foster their communication and co-operation with parents.

Some in the community are now asking for one social worker for one school. This is no doubt a good means to ensure that youngsters at school can receive better care and counselling services. But we must also bear in mind that class masters' contact with students is much closer, and they should thus understand their students better. So, if we can provide special training for class masters and equip them with better skills and abilities, and if we can reduce their teaching workload to enable them to have more contact with students and their parents, I am convinced that class masters will be better able to look after the psychological development of youngsters at school. Besides, schools should also enhance their co-operation with their resident community centres, so as to fully utilize all available youth services. This can surely produce some positive effects on co-ordinating the provision of youth counselling services.

For the family, one must admit that because of the fast tempo of life and the heavy pressure of earning a living in Hong Kong, parents usually do not find it at all easy to spare time and efforts to look after the mental growth of their children. But still, parents should not pay all their attention to their work and forget all about their social obligations. I mean they should not leave all the work of looking after their children to their schools, nor should they focus only on their children' academic results and neglect their moral education. In addition, when bringing up their children, parents should always remember to communicate with them on an equity basis, so as to make sure that problems can be identified and solved as soon as possible.

Looking at the matter from the perspective of society as a whole, we can also notice that the mass media are also playing a very important role in shaping the value judgments of youngsters. Some local newspapers and publications contain many elements of pornography and violence, and this is indeed very harmful to the healthy mental growth of youngsters. The existing Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance should really be reviewed in respect of its classification standards and enforcement, so as to address people's concern. Besides, for the publicity efforts on instilling good moral values among young people, and for the work of giving encouragement and awards to outstanding youngsters, all concerned parties must render their active support, so as to create an environment conducive to the healthy growth of the youngsters in the Special Administrative Region.

Madam President, I so submit.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, like the judicial systems in other parts of the world, our judicial system also treats young offenders leniently, basically because we think that since youngsters are innocent and susceptible to family and peer influences, society simply should not destroy their entire future once when they make any mistake because of their sheer innocence. Instead, we think that we should seek to protect the future of youngsters as far as possible. The Liberal Party agrees that we should treat young convicts as leniently as possible, so as to enable them to reform themselves. But we also think that we should always guard against any abuse of our leniency, lest it may be used as a shelter for young criminals.

In recent years, the number of youngsters arrested for commission of crimes has remained persistently high. In the first quarter of this year, 1 492 teenage criminals aged between seven and 15 were arrested, representing a rise of 4.6% over the corresponding period last year; for young criminals aged between 16 and 20, the total number of arrests was 1 589, a rise of 1.3% over the corresponding period last year. At the same time, in recent years, there have signs that youth problems are complicated by triad infiltration. As shown by a recent survey conducted by the Boys' and Girls' Clubs Association on youngster gangs, more than 70% of the 200 or so youngster sang members interviewed claimed that they were triad members, and some 60% of them also admitted that they were the followers of "big brothers". For the "big brothers" in question, nearly 80% of them had triad backgrounds. Besides, youngster gangs have also become increasingly tightly-knit and sophisticated in organization, as shown by the many rules they have to observe ─ they must help their friends who are under attack; they must not betray their friends; they must not seduce the wives of their friends; they must not join other gangs; they must not back off in times of crises and so on.

Youngster gangs are closely related to triad societies, and it is often very easy for triad elements to manipulate youngster gang members, to ask them to engage in unlawful activities. Young criminals are treated rather leniently in Hong Kong, and even if they are arrested, the penalty will be very light, or they may even be let off under discretionary treatment. So, many unruly elements have tried to capitalize on such leniency and make use of youngsters for their criminal activities. The Liberal Party thinks that our law enforcement institutions must address this problem properly; they must examine whether or not the existing levels of penalty are at all adequate for young recidivists or young criminals with triad background. The Government must find out whether there is a need to pick out these young criminals and impose heavier penalty on them.

Under our existing laws, children below the age of seven cannot be prosecuted or convicted; youngsters aged between seven and 14 cannot be sentenced to imprisonment; youngsters over the age 14 can be sentenced to imprisonment, but for those aged between 14 and 16, prison terms can be imposed only when there are no other better alternatives. Besides, the police are also empowered to exercise discretion when deciding whether or not to prosecute young criminals. If an offender is still very young and the crime committed is not of a serious nature, the police may place him or her under Superintendent's Discretion after considering the nature and incidence of the case.

The Liberal Party thinks that the forms of penalty mentioned above are possibly unable to deter young recidivists or young criminals controlled by triad societies. Treating them with leniency will only encourage them to disregard the law and commit more crimes. The Liberal Party maintains that the police should pinpoint the crimes committed by youngster gangs and impose heavier penalty, so as to achieve greater deterrent effect.

The Government should also enhance the rehabilitation services for young criminals and assist them in leading a healthy life, so as to prevent them from making the same mistakes again. A study conducted by the Hong Kong Federation of Youth Groups points out that there are not enough probation officers, and their quality and attitude vary greatly. The Government should increase the number of counselling personnel, social workers and probation officers and improve their services. Also, the Government should learn from the experience of other places and introduce a more diversified rehabilitation scheme.

Madam President, the future development of society depends on our young people. So, the community has an obligation to prevent them from going astray by assisting them in leading a healthy life. The Government should draw up a comprehensive scheme to assist our youngsters in growing up healthily. With these remarks, I support the motion.

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG, took the Chair.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I am sure that Mr HO Sai-chu must have thought about the matter very thoroughly before he moved this motion. And, I am sure that he must have been greatly shocked by the gravity of the problem, or else he would not have decided to repeat the appeal to "Save our children".

Some academics who have conducted studies on youngster gangs have defined members of these gangs as "youngsters with gang associations who have committed offences or engaged in anti-social activities". But I think that when we discuss youngster gangs today, we should also look at all those youth at risk who are not members of any gangs.

Actually, social problems involving youngster gangs and teenagers running away from home are certainly nothing new, and they have a very long history. Many social organizations, government institutions and academics have studied the causes of such problems, and some reports have also revealed their gravity and recommended some remedies. About 12 years ago, I participated in the production of a film called "Youngster Gangs". I was at that time perplexed by the increasing gravity of the youngster gang problem, and I hoped to use this film to arouse the concern of the community. And, the screening of the film did in fact arouse a lot of discussions. Today, a decade or so has already passed. We have long noted the problem; we have put forward many tackling measures and even spent a lot of resources on it. But we have failed to achieve any marked results so far. Worse still, according to a recent survey on these gangs, the number of students who have joined gangs has increased by 60% compared to the number in the 1990, and about 80% of our children are members of these gangs. The age of the so-called "big brothers" has also dropped, to the age of 14 in some cases. This is indeed a very worrying situation. What is more serious is that the behaviour of youngster gangs have become more outrageous than 10 years ago. All this shows that the youngster gang problem has become increasingly serious, and must be tackled promptly as a matter of extreme urgency.

In his motion, Mr HO Sai-chu proposes a total of eight measures to protect youngsters during their growth. I support all these measures in principle. I have also received some good suggestions from social workers and school principals. For example, they suggest that in general, there should be one social worker for one school, and that in some schools with poor academic results, such as Band 5 schools, there should even be two social workers. They explain that this is the only way to ensure the availability of individual counselling and preventive work all at the same time. In addition, they consider that there is also a need to review the direct or indirect labelling of schools. By "direct labelling", I mean the practice of announcing the bands to which the students of a particular school belong. And, "indirect labelling" means the classification of schools into skills opportunities schools, practical schools, pre-vocational schools and so on. These labelling systems have in practice dealt heavy blows to the self-esteem and self-confidence of students. That is why our education workers have suggested that while the need for diversified curriculums should be recognized, there should still be a uniform naming system for schools. I think the Government should consider these suggestions very seriously.

In addition to considering these specific proposals, we must also discuss the related problems in a macro and in-depth manner, so as to identify some fundamental solutions. First, in order to solve the youngster gang problem and protect our youngsters, we must draw up an integrated policy, and this will inevitably involve the joint efforts from government departments responsible for culture, education, security, law enforcement, social welfare and even town planning. Moreover, the joint efforts from statutory bodies, youth organizations and various different community organizations are also required. We should consider whether there should be a central co-ordination body, and if such a need is ascertained, we should then decide who should play this role. We must finalize all these issues and conduct the studies required. At the same time, we must realize that the work of solving the problem relating to youth at risk is a sustained task. For this reason, the Government must set down both long-term and intermediate targets and conduct progress reviews on a regular basis.

In addition, we must also note that our culture, education, ethical values and mass media are all playing a very important role in helping our younger generations grow up healthily.

Talking about culture, over the years, the people of Hong Kong have gradually developed a Great Hong Kong Mentality and an insular cultural perspective. They think only about immediate benefits, and ignore other important values. Such a social mentality really warrants our attention. Besides, Hong Kong is almost entirely short of any forms of fine arts; the entire community is dominated by bad-taste and vulgar cultural products. If we do not improve the situation, Hong Kong will never become a good place for young people to grow up. There are classification systems for many media, publications and even films, but these classification systems can at best serve only as passive deterring measures. What is more important is that we should create an environment in which young people can develop an ability to appreciate and enjoy wholesome arts.

For education, we must reform the existing system of spoon-feeding education. We must re-examine our education objectives, which have hitherto emphasized academic learning at the expense of ethical training. We must also re-examine the existing examination system, which has produced many, many losers.

For ethical training, we have so far failed to advocate our fine traditions relating to family harmony, fidelity in love, good parenthood and filial piety. Given such a situation, it will be very difficult for us to arrest the deterioration of the youngster gang problem.

We know only too well how our mass media have influenced our youngsters, and I do not think that I really need to say anything more on this. I have received many suggestions from parents, social workers and education workers, and they invariably complain bitterly against obscene publications and the pornographic contents of some newspapers. They maintain that many of the crimes committed by youngsters are directly attributable to the electronic media, obscene publications or comic strips. Therefore, I must call upon the mass media to discharge their proper social obligations.

Mr Deputy, the root causes of the youngster gang problem are related to the environment surrounding our youngsters, including their schools, living places and community settings. I therefore call upon the Government to take prompt actions in these areas. I also wish to point out that while these old problems still remain unresolved, new problems have already emerged. At a time when we are marvelling at the many conveniences which computer networks can bring to us, many parents are at the same time extremely worried about the proliferation of pornography, cult messages, criminal techniques and anti-social behaviour in computer networks. So, while we promote the use of computer, we must make sure that it will not become a medium which corrupts our youngsters.

Finally, I wish to point out that in order to solve the youngster gang problem, we will need the support and co-ordinated efforts from social workers and youngsters' families as well.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I think it is timely for Mr HO Sai-chu to move this motion today for we are now faced with the delinquency problem of youngster gangs. Many Honourable colleagues have spoken today from various aspects. They may be experts in such areas as social welfare, education and so on. In fact, youngster gangs involve a lot of other problems. We must examine the problems from various angles in order to determine how improvement can be made.

I will focus on discussing items (c) and (d) relating to town planning as contained in Mr HO Sai-chu's motion. In item (c), he said: "building the newly-developed and re-developed communities into multi-stratum communities through town planning, and adopting measures to prevent the emergence of crime blackspots in these communities". And in item (d), he mentioned the importance of taking into full account the unique demographic structure of individual communities. These two items are very important because the Honourable MA Fung-kwok also mentioned earlier that the causes leading to youngster gangs are very often linked with the environmental factors, meaning that, apart from the family and education environments, the living environment is very important too. As far as this point is concerned, even a non-expert knows the answer. Town planning and the living environment can indeed affect a person's criminal mentality.

From the angle of professional planning and architecture, we can examine town planning in accordance with three major principles. The first principle, as Mr HO Sai-chu said in his motion, is to develop multi-stratum communities. In other words, a community should not consist of grassroots public housing or luxurious residential premises only. Neither should its residents be restricted to elderly people or young people. We should build up multi-stratum communities. Communities which are not made up of multi-stratum, such as certain new towns where most residents are living in public housing, might easily give people a feeling that they are detached from general society. In other words, a feeling of alienation might develop. Such a feeling will have significant impact on youngsters. We can look at the examples in foreign countries like Harlem in the United States. Or we can look closer back home at Sau Mau Ping in Hong Kong in the olden days. In such places, the feeling of alienation might be a factor leading to increased crime incidence.

The second principle is that a community should be pluralistic. It should not serve as a place for dwelling or work only. In the past, Hong Kong did have problems of this kind. For instance, we could often read from the newspapers the occurrence of criminal problems in Tuen Mun. This might be due to the fact that, apart from having a lot of residential premises, Tuen Mun was initially planned as a district of intensive industrial activities where a lot of factories would provide job opportunities for the residents there, and Tuen Mun was supposed to be a self-contained community. But unfortunately, the development of history was not like that. Parents were forced to work in places far away from where they lived, making it difficult for them to take care of their children. Subsequently, it had caused the emergence of the delinquency problem among youngster gangs. Therefore, I think this warrants our careful consideration.

The third principle is related to our actual living environment. A good living environment will make us feel good, work more effectively and live healthier. But a poor living environment will exert great pressures on our mental well-being. We have said it again and again that the Government has not done enough in providing housing. People in Hong Kong are still living in very congested places. In my opinion, the designs of public housing should not be standardized. If we go to visit a new town, we will find a lot of monster buildings, which look exactly the same. They give people a feeling of constriction. I hope the Housing Authority can make good use of external resources such as consultants or architects to design more public housing or Home Ownership Scheme buildings of different characteristics. This will prevent all housing estates from looking exactly the same for this will give people a feeling of constriction and no sense of identity. This is extremely important not only to youngsters, but also to the cultivation of a sense of neighbourhood. People living there will not lose their self-identity by thinking that they are but only one in the several hundred thousands. This is something that warrants Members' attention.

Mr Deputy, the population of Hong Kong will continue to expand. According to the the long-term territorial development strategy, we can expect to have a population of 8.1 million to 8.3 million by 2001. What is more, the figure might rise as a result of the right of abode issue. In contemplating how to deal with the future population of Hong Kong, the Government should consider how to create a living environment that will help reduce pressure on the public and lower crime rates. I hope the Government can seriously consider, in developing new towns, adopting multi-stratum and pluralistic designs by planning places for dwelling and work jointly. This will not only facilitate people living there, but also provide better support in terms of space and facilities.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, on behalf of 70 000 educators from the Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union, I rise to speak in support of Mr HO Sai-chu today.

While our laws serve to protect our freedom of speech, they fail to protect our young people from being poisoned by information containing violence and pornography. In Hong Kong, we can find comic books containing violence and pornography readily available at the news-stands. Some youth magazines even publish the process of sexual acts in the form of letters from the readers. However, we can rarely find the Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority (TELA) crack down on Category IV pornographic laser discs. In some shopping arcades where young people gather, such as Sino Centre in Mong Kok and Lik Sang Plaza in Tsuen Wan, we can find the majority of shop premises or even the whole building selling pornographic discs. They simply look like a cheap "electronic flesh market". Our newspapers cover news reports on the one hand and publish prostitution guidelines on the other. Pornographic information has now even risen to a higher level by gaining access to schools. Each time when an indecent assault case is under trial in Court, even the most serious courts page will record in great details those dialogues and details, turning into a pornographic supplement. The situation is almost out of control for Hong Kong has become an information centre for pornography and violence well before the realization of the information and technology centre as advocated by Mr TUNG Chee-hwa.

More shockingly, the Obscene Articles Tribunal has completely failed to exercise any control on information containing pornography and violence because of the restriction imposed by current standards,. Recently, some social work organizations and police officers raised doubts over two comic books containing pornography and violence, namely, "少年陳浩南" and "古惑仔", for exaggerating triad culture, pornography and violence. The "輪大米" mentioned by Members just now, that is, this same comic book I have on hand, carries all sorts of pictures relating to gang rape. The pictures are accompanied by captions with explicit narration from beginning to end. It is only because some critical parts in the comic books are wittingly covered up that comics of this type are classified as Category I. In other words, they are considered suitable to be read by both adults and children. Doubting the existing standards adopted by the relevant authorities, members of the public have severely criticized this phenomenon for the obscene and indecent standards have completely gone beyond the standards acceptable to the community. We can well call these comic books children's spiritual poisons.

Recently, there was a case in which 13 youngsters from a youngster gang took part in an absolutely inhumane murdering act. The youngsters followed all the plot and movements as described in the comic book entitled "古惑仔". They did it exactly like what is depicted in each frame and finally a 15-year-old youth was beaten to death. But even comic books of this type are classified as Category I. Mr Deputy, a comic book on how to kill is regarded as Category I; a comic book on how to commit gang rape is also regarded as Category I, meaning they are all suitable for children and adults and even the whole family. Members of the public have raised extreme doubts over such a standard which is completely lack of credibility. Recently, the public presented nine comic books which were regarded as totally intolerable to the Tribunal for scrutiny. But surprisingly, only two of the books were judged as obscene and one of them was subsequently fined $10,000. Of the 12 extremely explicit newspaper guidelines on prostitution which were received by the Tribunal, only one was classified as a Category II obscene publication and it was eventually fined $40,000 only. For a newspaper, $40,000 means nothing!

Even the Audit Commission has recently criticized the TELA for failing to conduct any opinion polls over the past 12 years, updating the definitions for obscenity and indecency, setting standards in line with public moral and encouraging the Tribunal to make rulings in accordance with new standards, albeit it has been given provisions since 1987 to do such jobs. As a result, the Tribunal can only judge publications containing violence and pornography according to a set of standards that are absolutely outdated and ineffective. Finally, the Tribunal is unable to do anything but to allow the publications to poison youngsters in a lawful manner. Mr Deputy, while the laws and the TELA can do nothing to protect the youngsters today, who is going to protect them? Who should be condemned by society?

Mr Deputy, we should not tolerate this situation any longer. Recently, the Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union and the Society for Truth and Light initiated a signature campaign to denonnce publication of comic books containing violence and pornography. It took the Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Unions only three days, that is, three days before the Lunar New Year holidays, to collect nearly 10 000 signatures in opposition to these comic books. Many of the signatures collected have come from headmasters and teachers, illustrating that their anger and dissatisfaction have reached the limit. This is because no one would want to see our students and children being poisoned under an unprotected environment. We demand: First, immediately tighten up the definitions for obscenity and indecency in order to protect the young people; second, to classify comic books deficting violence, pornography or triad activities as Class II articles to prohibit young people from buying them; third, to strengthen law enforcement and impose heavier penalties as well as taking legal sanctions against unlawful publications.

Mr Deputy, while Mr TUNG Chee-hwa is concerned about Hong Kong's environmental pollution, we hope he can also care for the spiritual pollution now faced by our young people.

With these remarks, I fully support Mr HO Sai-chu's motion on behalf of the Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union.

MR DAVID CHU (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the problem of youngster gangs is not a criminal problem restricting to a certain age group in society. It is rather a problem caused by a combination of mistakes made in numerous areas in the general community, including the three factors of families, schools and peer groups. As pointed out in sociology, the emergence and aggravation of the problem of youngster gangs have at least illustrated the emergence of crises with family ethics, the existence of loopholes in our education system and deviation in respect of social values developed among peer groups.

As a matter of fact, a study pointed out that if a youngster comes from a family with criminal or sex violence records, or he has been subject to abuse, or he is an abuser of drugs or alcohol, or he is a member of a youngster gang, then his chance of becoming a murderer will double. If a youngster possesses one of the four elements mentioned above, and added with the fact that he has the aid of weapons, or he has been arrested, or he has problems at school, or his nervous system has developed some problems that affect his thinking and emotion, his chance of becoming a habitual murderer will also double. Studies of this kind have not only shown the interwoven causes leading to the problem of youngster gangs, but also, more importantly, bring out the important message that, in order to deal with the relevant problems, the Government must consider the problem from a holistic approach and administer mixed treatments that are mutually supportive.

Mr Deputy, an important factor contributing to the aggravating problem of youngster gangs in Hong Kong is the Government's lack of a holistic policy to look after the growth of youngsters. As a result, work on the youth encounter such problems as unclear message, lack of co-ordination and ineffectiveness. Let me now cite a prominent example. Earlier on, it was reported in newspapers that social work organizations and triad experts of the police came to the same view that descriptions on the raping of a girl by a youngster gang as contained in comic books "古惑仔" and "少年陳浩南" should be classified as obscene and indecent. However, the Obscene Articles Tribunal still classified the comic books in question as "suitable to be read by any person", citing the reason that the relevant descriptions had contained no nudity. Given that the legislation is ambiguous, the Government is still adhering to old rules and some media are turning a blind eye to their social responsibility, then no matter how hard schools have tried to promote moral education and how hard social workers have tried to rescue those youths at risk irrespective of the lack of resources, and even if we have publishers who have the ideal of publishing healthy publications, they will probably get half the results with twice the effort.

A main task the Government should do is to listen more to what the young people say, apart from improving co-ordination of youth policies.

Mr Deputy, concerning the case in which a youngster gang committed murder and burned a corpse in Sau Mau Ping, how many people can understand how a group of young people, whose lives have actually just started, could beat a classmate whom they knew to death? Concerning a case which took place recently in the United States in connection with the slaughtering of high school students, how many people can understand why the murderer gunned down the victims on learning that they believed in God? Although these two youngster gang murder cases took place in two different societies, they share one point in common, and that is, the murderers had shown no fear during the killing or the slightest regret. Why could the murderers be so cruel and irresponsible? How far do we, as grown-ups, understand the world of the young people?

In order to better understand the mentality of young people, it is indeed necessary for the Government to strengthen youth counselling services, including expanding on-street out-reaching teams and implementing expeditiously the target of one social worker serving one school. These are but the most basic requirements. A questionnaire survey conducted earlier on the youth problem has illustrated that, on average, 18% of secondary school students need counselling. In other words, even the target of one social worker serving one school is materialized, school social workers will still have a very heavy workload, not to mention the fact that the target still remains beyond our reach.

Mr Deputy, young people are the most important asset for our future development. I hope the Government will not tighten resources committed to youth services because of the current economic problem and the implementation of the Enhanced Productivity Programme.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, perhaps it is because of my old job in the media industry that, when Mr HO Sai-chu proposed this motion, my party and I naturally considered the problem from this angle right at the very beginning. But I found the problem not so simple the harder I thought of it. Moreover, I found that it was impossible for us to cut the problem apart for the whole issue was caused by a web of factors.

The media, television, movies, publications and even amusement games machines are all activities with emphasis put on entertainment and the spending of young people's leisure time. They are actually fruits of the creative industry. As far as Hong Kong is concerned, the majority of creative undertakings are based on commercial consideration. As a result, the products are shaped by the market. Therefore, on learning from a lot of information the appalling influence produced by "古惑仔" or other comic books, we should consider in an in-depth manner why such creations exist in the first place. Is it because market message has induced people engaging in creative production to produce such works and, in order to make money, to do it in an exaggerated, sensational and extreme manner? It seems that there is such a phenomenon in Hong Kong.

I watched a television programme the other day which was focused on discussing and analysing the reasons leading to the decline of the movie industry today. The programme also queried why producers had failed to find subjects which were more diversified in nature and could touch the hearts of the people by telling stories which had more human touch or stories which could reflect human nature, rather than habitually relying solely on violence and pornography to attract audiences. I think we should consider why there is such a phenomenon in an in-depth manner. Or is it a chicken and egg question? Of course, this also reflects on the receiving end. What production do people in society actually want? In fact, both parties are involved. On the one hand, producers are reckoning what the market needs. On the other hand, the market buys these products to cater for the producers. As a result, there is an urge on the part of producers to do even better or, on the contrary, to perform increasingly worse. Now there is such a snowballing phenomenon.

Just now, a number of Honourable colleagues touched on this question: What role is the Government playing at the moment? The Government is now actually playing the role of a goal-keeper. In order words, it is trying to remedy the situation through enacting legislation and exercising censorship. But regrettably it is now too late for all these kinds of work are already on the market. Very often, young people are left with no choice. Which party is indeed going wrong? I believe we must consider this issue in depth. But it is undeniable that we have reached a stage where such products are flooding the market. This makes the role of the goal-keeper even more important. Just now, we heard Members say we need to tighten up legislation and prohibit certain places from selling these products and so on. While some people consider there is a need to tighten up legislation, I think the problem lies in the criteria rather than legislation. How should we establish the criteria then? How should we define which products are not suitable to be viewed by youngsters? It appears that both the Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority (TELA) and the Obscene Articles Tribunal are completely detached from society. The situation mentioned by Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong earlier on is in fact extremely shocking. All educators share the view that the standards in this area have gone far beyond the acceptable limits. It is really surprising that the TELA (the government side) and the Tribunal (the judicial side) do not understand that at all and are not aware of it. I have, on a number of occasions, urged the Government to conduct investigations, surveys and studies on a regular basis to reflect in the system the community's standards in this area. But has the Government done so? No! Some people remarked that the Tribunal belongs to the judicial system, so we should not try to influence it. Right, we should not try to influence it. But has it discharged its duties? If not, should the community point it out that the existing adjudication standards are completely detached from the community's standards? I think the judicial organ is obliged to review the situation and assess how detached it is.

Insofar as law enforcement is concerned, we can see that these products are now flooding the market. Members also share the feeling that these comic books or products can fundamentally be said to come under "no supervision" at all. When someone asks this question, the Government will try to make up an excuse and blame it on inadequate manpower. Or that the priority is not on this. Or a few censors can do only so much work. If the Government has no intention to enforce the law, it should not enact the law in the first place. As the law is in place, the Government should enforce it. Our aim is to protect the young people. Moreover, we have already enacted legislation to prohibit the sale of such publications to young people. What is the use of the law if we do not enforce it in spite of the fact that it is already in place? It is indeed impossible for the Government to shirk its responsibility. At the same time, it is incumbent upon the Government to tighten the criteria.

This morning, I heard President CLINTON of the United States announce in the United States that he would make a special provision to conduct an in-depth study on whether the media have a role to play in inducing the violent tendency of youngsters. Perhaps Hong Kong needs to take a leaf from CLINTON's book. It is also necessary for the Government to conduct such studies.

Mr Deputy, I support Mr HO Sai-chu's motion.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, since the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR), our work on the youth has focused on the self-development of young people. As indicated in the Annual Report of the past two years, the emphasis of our youth policy has been placed on encouraging the young people to "have the whole world in view and the State in mind", but we seemed to have neglected those youngsters at risk. Just as many Honourable colleagues have said, the youth problem is really becoming more and more serious. The Caritas Centre conducted a survey in March this year, and it was found that with 90% of the gangsters being under 18, younger people are being affiliated to youngster gangs; and the findings of a similar survey conducted three years ago showed that only 70% of the gangsters were under 18. According to the findings of similar surveys, 50% of the gangsters are 15 years old or below, and some of them are even Primary Five or Primary Six pupils.

Many Honourable colleagues have pointed out that the shocking Sau Mau Ping youngster gang corpse burning case has already sounded an alarm. Youngster gangs have been actually likened to scourges that should be avoided by all living creatures. But why have our youngsters resorted to such transgressing behaviour? I do not think that they are born more evil than any one of us here in this Chamber. They only became what they are today because of the problems they encountered in the course of their development. I think the most serious of these problems are their family problems, coming next are the schools, mass media, education system and so on.

The family is really a very important factor in determining whether youngsters can grow up healthily. Rightly as Mr Justice WONG who was responsible for trying the corpse burning case said, violent comics and films glorifying the crimes of triad societies are only of secondary importance in comparison to the lack of guidance and attention from family members of these youngsters. Moreover, the families of these youngsters have also failed to instil into them the basic concepts of morals. If families failed to give their children suitable guidance, it would be very difficult for the youngsters to make sound judgments. Being easily influenced by external factors, they would act in an impermissible manner. If they are deprived of the love and attention of their parents for a prolonged period of time, they will become detached from their families, and have to turn to their peers for recognition and support. For youngsters who come from broken families, it is very important that they should identify with their peers, and a strong bond will usually be formed. If such youngsters fall prey to the triad culture, they will easily form themselves into youngster gangs.

However, can we put all the blame on parents insofar as the problem of youngster gangs is concerned? If we take a look at the working class families, we can see that most parents have to work long hours for a living. If it is a single-parent family, then the burden will be heavier. Worse still, the Government is now cutting back on the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) payments. With the parents having to earn for a living and coping with their housework at the same time, we can hardly blame them for having no time for their children. Moreover, being handicapped by their low education level, many parents often do not know how to teach their children, and they also do not know anything about the schoolwork of their children. At present, there are little social resources that can help these parents with the education of their children. In order to solve such problems, the Government should provide these parents with more assistance, such as, offering an after school child care allowance to parents who are in need, considering establishing a parent visiting team, and offering follow-up services for parents of youths at risk. Experienced social workers of the visiting team can provide parents with advices on how to provide guidance for their children, and on the ways and means to seek social assistance for helping their children. Moreover, parents should also adopt a two-pronged approach by working with the outreaching social work team in following up and dealing with the problems of their children.

Apart from their families, the youngsters spend most of their time at school and since this point has already been discussed by many Honourable colleagues, I am not going to repeat their points here. The Democratic Party strongly urges for the speedy implementation of the "one social worker per school" policy. Unfortunately, the Administration has still refused to make any commitments to date. I hope that the Secretary for Education and Manpower, Mr Joseph WONG, would be able to convince the Secretary for Health and Welfare, Mrs Katherine FOK, to allocate resources for implementing the "one social worker per school" policy. I am sure that from the education point of view, Mr WONG will support this idea. I am also sure that Mrs FOK also supports this idea, and she is unable to put the consensus of this Council into practice only due to the lack of resources.

In conclusion, insofar as resolving or reducing the youngster gangs problem is concerned, I firmly believe that it all depends on whether the Government attaches adequate importance to this issue, and whether it will provide sufficient resources to provide the necessary support and services which I have just mentioned.

With these remarks, I support the motion.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, as Mr HO Sai-chu has said, there are many causes to the youngster gang problem. Today, I am speaking as a mother of three children and on behalf of the Liberal Party. I would discuss this question from a compassionate angle. Children come from parents, and if there are problems in the course of their development, should we look into the family relations of these children to find the cause of the problems?

According to a questionnaire survey conducted by the Liberal Party recently in various parts of Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories on the problem of youngster gangs, it was found that the majority, that is, about 26% of the 2 000-odd respondents felt that the biggest cause to the youngster gang problem is insufficient communication between parents and their children. Moreover, the findings of a similar survey released by the Boys' and Girls' Clubs Association of Hong Kong also indicated that the youngsters join youngster gangs mainly because they feel that it is fun to stick around with their peers, and there will also be someone around to help if they are bullied.

The family is the basic unit of society and Chinese people have always attached great importance to the family, but why is it that in present day Hong Kong, our family relation have deteriorated so badly? Why do our children have to look to their peers in the neighbourhood for help and support? Why do our youngsters feel that there is no warmth in their family and that they have to gang up with their peers in order to find the support and protection they need? Actually, this is an issue on which every family and parent in Hong Kong should do some soul-searching. Just imagine in what kind of world is our youngsters living if they cannot talk to their parents or their handsomely paid teachers to find solutions to their growing pains and problems; or if they cannot rely on getting any support from their families when they are bullied on the streets? Can we look at this world from their perspective?

Undoubtedly, a lot of families have to work long hours to keep their heads above the water in a fast developing society like Hong Kong. However, this applies not only to low income families, and I also have to work long hours. Since the day I got married, I have never stopped working, and I have to work more than 10 to 20 hours daily. However, does it mean that we can shirk our responsibilities as parents? That is really not an excuse for neglecting our family. Since there are only 24 hours in a day, how we distribute our time will really depend on our value judgment. If parents feel that it is important to communicate with their children and that the future of their children is important, then no matter how busy we are, we can always find a way out.

Some parents feel that they just cannot find the time, so they have tried to compensate their children with money and material benefits. However, if we send along our investigators to conduct a survey in any public housing estate, or visit a housing estate where the environment is the poorest, and take a look at the shoes and clothes of the children, we will understand that it is a big mistake to compensate the children with money and material benefits. My children have always worn "hand me downs" and I have always brought their clothes from street stalls. What growing kids need most is spiritual support, in particular the love and care of their parents and the attention of their teachers, instead of an extravagant life. If parents resort to compensating their children with money and material benefits in lieu of care and attention, then not only will the children be unable to get the spiritual support they need, the parents will also give their children a wrong idea that material goods are very important. Thus, instead of achieving the desired results, they will only get dire results.

I am also aware that a lot of parents realize the importance of communicating with their children, but they do not know how to bridge the generation gap, and they also do not know how to communicate with their children. I sincerely hope that these people will seek to learn about their responsibilities before they become parents. They may even attend seminars or counselling sessions held by voluntary agencies on family life, in order to learn how to communicate with young people. I also hope that teachers will show more enthusiasm when working with young people and will not simply consider their relationship with their students as a job. If we are not fully prepared to take up our responsibilities as parents, then how can we be qualified as parents? Do we give birth to children for the sake of possessing them? Do we bring them into this world so that they will be assimilated by society and let them suffer? As parents, should we not be held responsible if we bring our younger generation into this contaminated world and let them suffer? If you really do not have the time, and if you, like me, go home every day at 11 pm or 12 am, then please write a letter to your children every day! For a long time, I have been writing my children letters everyday, and when you have been doing this for one week, you will find that you can do this very easily. You can finish a letter within three minutes, and the letter will be full of concern and your child will be deeply touched. He can take the letter to school and take it out to read when things are going rought for him. This is really a very effective way of communication.

However, it will be too late if you try to think of remedies only when you discover that your child is acting in a unusual way.

I would like to ask Honourable colleagues whether they know how serious is the problem now faced by our youngsters. The biggest problem they are now facing is that they cannot endure any mental or psychological blows. What are these blows? We find that Form Three graduates who start working usually cannot stay in a job for long. Why? It is because no sooner had they taken up the job than they started asking themselves what were they doing this for and why could they not have some fun. If they stay out too late at night having fun, they will not be able to get up for work the next morning. But they think that this is no big deal, and this is their mentality.

There is also another problem, and that is when these youngsters are studying in Form Two or Form Three (Mr Deputy, I am sorry I do not know how to say Form Two or Form Three in Chinese), they do not know what is their goal, and they also do not know what they are working so hard for. There is also another serious doubt on their mind: What is the expectation of the school? I would like to promote a concept ─ I do not know what it is called in Chinese ─ and that is the concept of quality parenting. I can only try to translate the idea of this concept into Chinese: and that is, only children who are brought up by progressive parents can become progressive children; and only students who are taught by progressive teachers can become progressive students.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs LEUNG, your time is up.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support Mr HO Sai-chu's motion.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, several newspapers reported the news of an 11-year-old boy raping a six-year-old-girl as their headlines. In fact, in the past year, similar terrifying news such as cases of murder, burning the corpse of a crime victim, rape, sexual abuse and so on were found to be committed by youngster gangs and youngsters. All this indicates that the problem of youngster gangs is deteriorating to a worrying state.

That youngster gangs have emerged and grown to become a worsening problem is partly because some young people fail to respect themselves and parents are slovenly in educating their children. Another part of the cause is due mainly to those media which are snobbish, irresponsible, and which play up sex and violence; and the failure of the Government to do its best to provide support services to young people.

Mr Deputy, some media in Hong Kong, in an attempt to attract readers, make use of loopholes in the law to promote triad culture, create triad personalities, exaggerate triad heroism, and display excessive sex. As a result, some indecent comic books such as "古惑仔" and "少年陳浩南" find their way into the young minds of youngsters, as pointed out by some Members, including the Honourable CHEUNG Man-kwong.

I think we need a revamp of the laws and institutions controlling obscene and indecent articles. Under the existing Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance, there is no concrete definition on obscenity and indecency. The Tribunal in deciding whether an article is obscene and indecent will only consider standards of morality, decency and propriety that are generally accepted as reasonable by the community. Take "古惑仔" and "少年陳浩南" as examples. The comics are about triads and they contain explicit descriptions of gang rape of young girls by youngster gangs. The mentality was glaringly bad but the Tribunal rated them as Category I as "suitable for reading by all ages". Such comics about triads are treated in the same way as the familiar "叮噹", "麥嘜" and "櫻桃小丸子". Is this not ridiculous? Therefore, I hope the Government can review the relevant laws immediately to lay down more enveloping standards for adjudication so that young people are not spoiled by unscrupulous comic producers.

Mr Deputy, family education is a determining factor in the healthy growth of young people. Without it, they may be spoiled. The families of some defendants of the Sau Mau Ping murder in which the corpse of a victim was burned admitted frankly they had not taken good care of their children, leading to the irrevocable incident. A general reason why parents fail to take proper care of their children may be due to the need to earn money so that they do not have the time for educating them, or to the fact that some parents think it is the responsibility of the schools and the teachers, not theirs, to educate them.

Indeed, there are single parents who find it hard to take good care of their children even if they want to, because they need to work hard for a living. I suggest the Government make reference to experience in Canada and New Zealand in the establishment of child support agencies to help single parents collect maintenance payments. This may lift the burden of living and avoid negligence about the nurturing of their children.

Government support to schools is also conducive to relieving the youngster gang problem. A most disappointing fact is that we still have bisessienal schooling in primary education and the teacher-pupil ratio is still 1 to 30 or 1 to 40. Every teacher has to teach several classes. Added to this is the heavy curriculum of primary and secondary schools. And we need to wait endlessly for the materialization of "one social worker per school" target. Since teachers are already exhausted in dealing with the existing education system, how can they have the energy to take care of the different needs of different pupils?

Mr Deputy, we cannot afford to neglect the problems with our young people. The Government must address the problem squarely, otherwise the kind of campus shooting happening in the United States not long ago may happen in Hong Kong in the near future. Then it will mean a catastrophe for Hong Kong.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion.

MR CHAN KWOK-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the problem of youngster gangs is not formed overnight but due to many causes. There is a close relationship between recent cases of torture and murder of peers by youngster gangs and films, television programmes, newspapers and comic books containing violence and pornography. It will also exert a lot of adverse influence on the youngsters if their parents are too busy in work to give them parental care and love. Serious unemployment is one of the numerous factors leading to the deterioration of the problem. I will concentrate on the unemployment problem of youngsters in Hong Kong. Since the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han has originally intended to move a motion on this issue, I will express her views on her behalf.

Apart from making a living, a job means much to a man. Very often, a man builds up his dignity and self-confidence, for instance, from his job. Without a job, a youngster will suffer the loss of his dignity and self-esteem. According to the findings of a survey, those youngsters who are unemployed will tend to have conflict with their families. Once their family relationship has worsened, many of them will wander in the streets and form into groups. The problem of youngster gangs will thus emerge. As a matter of fact, the unemployment rate of youngsters in any country is higher than its overall unemployment rate. Unfortunately, the unemployment problem of youngsters in Hong Kong has become very serious in recent years. Their unemployed numbers have been on the rise year after year. The unemployment rate among those between the age of 15 and 24 has reached double digits since 1995, much higher than the overall unemployment rate of Hong Kong. After the financial turmoil, the unemployment rate of youngsters has further increased. According to the Census and Statistics Department, the unemployment rate of youngsters in 1997 when the economy was prosperous was slightly reduced to 10.2%. However, the figure rose to 13.4% in the first quarter of 1998 and further surged to 25.1% in the third quarter of the year. An unemployment rate of 25% is a very unhealthy phenomenon. Why is the unemployment rate of the youngsters so high? This warrants our examination.

Different people possess different skills and therefore take up different posts in society. In the past, youngsters who had dropped out of school at Form Three or Form Five could easily get a job in factories or become apprentices when the manufacturing sector was flourishing. However, there was an unbalanced structural transformation in Hong Kong economy since 1980s or 1990s. It centred heavily on the tertiary production such as the financial sector, the real estate sector and information technology. Posts in these sectors require people of higher education level. Jobs which require people of low qualification and skills have moved away from Hong Kong, resulting in a gradual decrease of jobs available to the youths.

For those youngsters who have discontinued their studies, jobs suitable to them are limited given their low qualification and lack of special skills. When the economy is prosperous and the service industry booming, a lot of the young workforce can be absorbed. But after the financial turmoil, the service sector shrunk dramatically and the youngsters were expelled from the labour market. With weak competitiveness, they found no way out in the labour market. As a result, their unemployment rate began to surge in 1998 when the economic conditions began to a turn for the worse.

Since the youngsters are less competitive in the labour market, they need the special assistance of the Government. Although the Government is aware of the high unemployment rate among the youths, it fails to provide any specific assistance to them. The Special Placement Team has suggested the implementation of a voluntary work scheme for the youngsters in the hope that they can learn how to get along with people before they secure any jobs. Excellent though the idea may be, the problem remains that "voluntary work" is not actually a job after all. It cannot help the youngsters find jobs.

Moreover, we lack a department in Hong Kong specially tasked with providing placement services to the youngsters. There are only two job-seeking channels for the youngsters: By responding to job vacancies published in printed media and registration with the Labour Department. However, they usually find it difficult to compete with other job seekers since they have litte work experience. If they cannot find a job, there is no way for them to get experience which in turn makes it difficult for them to enter the labour market. It is therefore a vicious circle.

What assistance can the Government offer? As Hong Kong develops rapidly, the demand for information technology and language proficiency is getting higher and higher. The most fundamental solution is to enhance the young people's competitiveness through training in information technology, language proficiency and other skills which they need in seeking employment. The training currently provided in Hong Kong cannot meet the demand of the times. For instance, even though mobile telephones are so popular in Hong Kong and there is a great demand for expertise in design and repair of mobile telephones, no relevant training is provided in any training institutes run by the Government. As a result, there is a lack of trained and qualified expertise in the market. Even though the youngsters are interested in joining the profession, there is no formal training available to them. All training institutes should take one step further by providing the youngsters with training that can really slot them into suitable jobs, so that the unemployment problem suffered by the youngsters can be solved.

The Government, with the aid of computer networks, can also gather job vacancies suitable for the youngsters in the market. The young job seekers can then apply for the jobs by themselves, thus helping the supply to meet the demand in market.

Mr Deputy, there should be room for the youngsters in our community so that they can work, accumulate experience and give full play to their skills. If they are jobless and idle, they cannot build up their self-esteem and self-confidence. Nor will they develop a positive outlook on life. If they are discontented with the community and the Government, this will become a hidden worry in society. The Government should do its best to help the youngsters enter the labour market. With the implementation of other supplementary measures, the problem of youngster gangs can be effectively improved.

Mr Deputy, I so submit.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, there are in fact a lot aspects to the youngster going problem that merit discussions. But I would like to focus on two side issues. The first one is unemployment which has just been mentioned by the Honourable CHAN Kwok-keung, and the other is punishment.

Much has been discussed by Members on the unemployment of youngsters. The unemployed rate for those aged between 15 and 19 has recently soared, but I am not going to repeat the figures. However, Members must also realize the popularization of education. The increasing opportunity to receive tertiary education means an overall improvement in the level of education of our society. On the contrary, youngsters aged between 15 and 19 who are unable to further their studies will find themselves subject to ever increasing adversity in their employment prospects because of their releative low level of education. We can foresee that this situation will deteriorate in the future. The difficulties faced by young workers include the lack of qualifications as mentioned by many colleagues, and their lack of skills and experience which is closely related to the problem. The current economic transformation in Hong Kong has led to an increase in the size of workforce and a declining number of job vacancies. As a result, young workers will have to face fierce competition. The unemployed rate, as we have just mentioned, will not only persist but also aggravate. I do not want to see that the present careers guidance for secondary school leavers will one day turn out to be unemployment-counselling-based. There is no qualification assessment mechanism other than the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination or Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination. When recruiting staff, most employers will usually consider the applicants' personal academic credentials. This practice has stifled the careers and development opportunity for the Form Three school leavers or for those who have merely completed Form One or Form Two.

The Government should consider setting up a more flexible mechanism of continuing education in order to give the young school leavers or those who possess lower-level qualifications the opportunity of continued education. For instance, it should lay down the criteria for assessing their language skills or academic standards so that the trainees can take unit credit programmes at their own pace. When they have earned enough credits, they can sit the assessment examination to ascertain their language and academic levels. Adult education can be regarded as a channel of further studies for the young school leavers. We should also consider setting up a day-time adult education centre to provide unemployed youngsters with opportunities of further studies.

Moreover, the Government should consider setting up a further education fund. At present, students studying in tertiary institutions or senior secondary courses are given various kinds of assistance when they are pursuing their studies. In view of this, the Government should also consider setting up a further education fund in order to provide low-interest or interest-free education loans to the secondary school leavers. Besides, the setting up of a professional qualification framework will also be conducive to the pursuit of further studies by youngsters with lower-level qualifications. Through further studies, they can climb the promotion ladder well-established in their trade. This will give them an incentive to pursue further studies.

I now turn to the issue of punishment and rehabilitation service. Much has just been discussed by Members on the many alarming or heinous crimes commited by youngsters. Undoubtedly, the offenders themselves should be liable for their crimes. However, as mentioned by many Members, the main cause leading to the commission of crimes is, to a large extent, their family and social backgrounds. When a youngster has committed a criminal offence, we must strike a balance between punishment and education. Most of the offences committed by arrestees aged 20 or below are non-violence crimes such as shop theft or thefts of similar nature. For young offenders of minor crimes, community-based rehabilitation is of utmost importance. In other words, imprisonment should be avoided. Rather, they should be allowed to stay in the community and turn over a new leaf. For those who have committed serious crimes, we should of course impose appropriate punishment on them, including imprisonment.

Lastly, despite the many discussions we have made on these questions, I think it is the adults who should bear the ultimate responsibility. Many Members have earlier talked about the culture of sex and violence, which is created by the adults. Many may also criticize the failure of our present education system as one of the causes leading to the youth problem. I will certainly agree that there is a lot of room for improvement in our education system and resources allocated to it by society are inadequate. However, if the set of values promoted in society is money-oriented rather than a healthy family life, and if the parents pass the buck of educating their children onto schools or society, this will not do the youngsters any good. Of course, we can also blame the parents for their ignorance in educating their children and for their irresponsibility. But families are also facing a lot of social pressure and sometimes, we can say that the parents themselves are also the victims.

So, apart from considering the responsibilities of the Government, the community and the families, as well as education, punishment, rehabilitation, and the control of the culture of sex and violence, we should also consider the cultivation of the sense of family attachment and the set of values of society as a whole. Furthermore, the Government should also consider the formulation of a comprehensive family policy.

With these remarks, I support the motion. MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the problem of youngster gangs has become increasingly serious for many reasons. As the old saying goes, "spare the rod, spoil the child". Inadequate family education and our education system's enduring neglect of moral education are major causes of the problem of youngster gangs.

Before 1996, civil education in schools was not within the scope of the overall education policy of the Government. In September 1996, the Education Department published the Guidelines on Civic Education in Schools, setting out the overall targets of civic education. As the Guidelines take in almost everything and have cumbersome contents, they have been criticized as "too comprehensive, sweeping, empty, unfocussed and unrealistic", and they are not specific guidelines for the implementation of civic education in schools.

Conducting comprehensive moral education of students and fostering their correct values are the important foundation of civic education. Detached from this foundation, civic education is just like a house built on the beach.

Having established the general orientation, the Education Department should inject more resources for civic education. At present, civic education is an elective for junior secondary education. The Administration should consider making civic education compulsory and extending it to primary education. Besides, there must be a civic education officer in every primary and secondary school in Hong Kong to take charge of co-ordinating civic education activities in school.

Mr Deputy, the foundation of civic education lies in fostering students' correct values. Values are related to an individual's basic attitudes and viewpoints, and are edified, bred and nurtured from childhood. As what one constantly sees and hears has imperceptible influence on his value judgment, the atmosphere and culture of a school has far-reaching influence on a student in addition to what is taught by the civic education teacher. The conduct of education on value judgment of an individual should not be confined to the classroom, and it should form an indispensable part of extra-curricular activities. The value orientation students learnt in and out of the classroom will be the principles they follow when they conduct themselves in society in future. The traditional Chinese values emphasize "cultivating oneself, regulating the family, ruling the state and maintaining order across the land", and fostering a correct value judgment is the basis of "cultivating oneself".

At present, many schools will counsel their students only after problems have emerged, failing to take precautions or promote moral education in a positive manner. Front-line teachers should understand that the moral education process comprises four stages, namely knowledge, feelings, intentions and practice. The key to fostering students' good values and behaviour lies in giving students moral knowledge, co-ordinating their feelings and intentions and putting these into practice. This is what we call wholesome moral education.

Mr Deputy, Hong Kong in the crevice between Chinese and Western cultures should incorporate the latest and most effective elements of contemporary moral education in the West and assimilate the useful elements of traditional Chinese culture. Particular importance should be attached to teacher training in this respect. The Administration should deploy resources and manpower and enhance the compilation of material and teacher training for moral education. A good teacher makes a good student. If a teacher has scanty knowledge of excellent moral education in China and the West, he can hardly give students good moral education.

Mr Deputy, besides school education, we have to attach importance to the extra-curricular activities of students in order to solve the problem of youngster gangs. Family education has an important role to play. If something goes wrong with family education, children who fail with their school education will seek recognition in the streets and contract the culture of the streets. They tend to use violence and commit criminal acts. Some parents are at their wits' end in dealing with their problem children and they do not get any assistance. We must ameliorate the serious disjointedness of school education and family education. The French concept of "parent schools" linking up school education with family education has seen success in mainland cities such as Shanghai and Beijing. To be specific, schools and parents should maintain better communication and closer contacts, so that parents can know more about the behaviour patterns of their children and targeted methods of conducting family moral education.

Mr Deputy, the education review report emphasizes material gains but it does not give moral education enough emphasis. A community that emphasizes material gains excessively can enjoy prosperity at the moment but not for long. The inflation and bursting of the economic bubble in recent years adequately illustrates that a community that emphasizes material gains excessively can hardly maintain enduring and stable prosperity. Driven by their zest for material gains, Hong Kong people are not as determined, steadfast, hardworking and willing to work as they were and their outstanding traditional values have been seriously eroded. As many people believe that speculation will make them rich overnight, young people are similarly affected and they regard morals as inferior to wittiness, and righteousness to gains. They are given to material enjoyment prematurely and they find it important to enjoy while they can, forgetting completely their responsibilities to their families and the community. We should not forget that the decline of the Roman Empire is precisely caused by the moral degeneration of the community. To bring order out of chaos and foster a firm foundation, we must emphasize and start with the moral education of young people and reverse once and for all the tilt of local education towards excessive emphasis on material gains and the neglect of moral education.

Mr Deputy, I so submit.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the characters in the movie "Young and Dangerous" such as "CHAN Ho-nam", "Pheasant (山雞)" and "Stuffed (掙爆)" may be idols in the eyes of many young people. If "Pheasant" and "Stuffed" can continue their studies or receive vocational training and acquire professional skills, will or do they need to become "henchmen" or "triad members"? We may not be sure about the answer. Does the community however have the suitable circumstances and environment for young people who fail to cope with traditional school education to acquire professional skills? I have some figures and they reflect a saddening situation confronting us.

In 1998, a total of 90 210 Secondary Five students sat for the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination (HKCEE), and 47.9% of them, 43 210 students, had less than five passes while 13 500 failed in all subjects. Other than repeating Secondary Five, young people who fail to enter Secondary Six have few choices if they want to acquire professional skills.

For instance, the entry requirements of the diploma or certificate technician courses of the Vocational Training Council (VTC) are five passes in the HKCEE; in other words, 43 210 secondary school graduates cannot secure places in the technician courses and they can only compete with Secondary Three students for places in craft courses. In 1998, a total of 32 419 young people applied for full-time or part-time craft courses. Although the seven technical institutes under the VTC admitted students beyond the quota, they could only enrol 13 094 students. Obviously, there was a wide gap between demand and supply. Starting from this year, the VTC will offer basic diploma courses that only require three passes in the HKCEE and basic certificate courses that only require completion of Secondary Five for entry, but it is still utterly inadequate.

As for the apprenticeship scheme which assists young people in mastering the skills required by varous trades, the role it plays is diminishing under the present economic conditions. The VTC projected in its budget this year that it would offer 4 000 apprenticeship places. Having taken the economic conditions into account, this figure is actually 16% less than that of 1997 but the actual situation is even worse. As disclosed by the Office of the Director of Apprenticeship, in the first five months this year, only 500 apprenticeship vacancies were offered by employers while 1 750 young people had applied for the vacancies.

That employers are passive in contracting apprenticeship contracts is because of the downward adjustment of the whole economy, the heavy burden and the mode of operation of the scheme itself. Under this scheme, the Government mainly subsidizes the costs of education. While an apprentice only pays some $1,000 annually as school fee, the Government actually pays to help employers train up the craftsmen required by them. As employers are required to pay apprentices wages and let them attend classes during working hours, they do not see the direct economic incentives. Moreover, the stringent requirements of apprenticeship contracts and the long contract term of two to four years make most employers unwilling to execute such contracts.

Evidently, in addition to offering more vocational training places, improving the apprenticeship scheme is a pressing task in order to assist more young people in acquiring professional skills. The Government should consider partly subsidizing employers who offer apprenticeship places or giving them some allowances. It should also consider following the example of the Construction Industry Training Authority in partly subsidizing employers for the trainees' monthly wages, giving employers economic incentives and simplifying the contract system so as to create more vocational training opportunities for young people. I also understand that a consultancy review report on apprenticeship has recently been completed and we hope that the VTC will expeditiously implement the helpful suggestions made in the report and perfect the scheme.

Solving the problem of youngster gangs is a huge social engineering project but we should not give up any viable means. The most basic point is that we should try our best to provide young people with sufficient opportunities of learning and development. Only by so doing can we minimize the possibility of them becoming henchmen or triad members. MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I feel very sad whenever I visit dozens of juvenile offenders imprisoned for serious crimes, pending the determination of the Queen, before the reunification. They are adults now and they are good by nature but mentally immature. They committed serious crimes perhaps simply on impulse or for insignificant causes. As a result, they have to spend the prime of their life behind bars, not knowing when they will reunite with their families or rejoin the community. It is indeed a great pity for them, their families and even the whole society.

When I first met them, some of then said to me, "How good it will be if Hong Kong is not governed by the British colonial government but the mainland Government." They said this because the Chinese Government would have handled their cases in a very simple way. It would dispose of them with a gunshot so that they would no longer be tormented and their families would not have to rush about or worry about their future. Their remarks precisely reflect that these so-called youngster gangs are not genuine villains but they have become gangsters only because the community and the Government have always been cold and detached to these young people who have gone astray.

Mr Deputy, every now and then when cases of juvenile delinquency came into the limelight many people will say that families, schools, the media and even the entire community have to make an introspection and bear responsibilities. Unfortunately, while everyone seemed to have a part to blame at the very beginning when such cases emerged, it would become nobody's responsibility after a longer period of time. At the end, these young people have to shoulder the responsibilities for all the consequences. The cause of this phenomenon is that our society does not accept that the problems of adolescents are the problems of adults, more than those of young people themselves. To tackle these problems, we should first examine the kind of society we adults have created in which young people are nurtured, brought up, live and grow up.

Mr Deputy, I do not intend to play rhetoric but the use of the word "measures" in today's motion on tackling the problem of young people reflects that we adults regard them as objects to be "tackled". From the past till now, we have been dividing these young people and branding them as good or bad, decent or loutish, useful or useless. Under these circumstances, if these young people go astray, they will be walking along a road of no return just like stepping up a "career ladder". The problems of most young people probably start with the minor faults of young offenders. But if people who are close to them, such as their teachers, parents and friends, label and brand them as "problem youth", they will strike a serious blow to their psyche and obstruct their development.

Mr Deputy, when we discuss youth policies, we seldom consider the problem from the angle of young people or try to understand their situation and ponder the questions they are pondering. We often say that their behaviour and attitudes are unacceptable and we cannot allow them to continue. Have we considered what are the so-called transgressions or bad attitudes? Most probably, they reflect the adverse influence of the adult world on them. Their so-called transgressions may be their condemns and angry shouts targeted at the adult community. For instance, we often say that ethical education is not satisfactory and schools should enhance ethical education Have we not recently condemned NATO for its air raid on the Chinese Embassy while we tried our best to stop our so-called "poor relatives" from coming to Hong Kong? Blood is thicker than water, after all. How should we judge ethics? The Government often adopts a "lose-hit, win-take" attitude towards bills. As the Government has introduced the "legislative intent" argument after the Court of Final Appeal hearings, how can we make young people understand the meaning of "the spirit of the rule of law"? Mr Deputy, as adults we often say that we do not know what criteria we have taught young people for judging what is right and what is wrong, and one method we use is punishing the young offenders. Have we ever considered that the problems of young people are the problems of adults? The younger generation is only repeating the faults and errors of the older generation. Therefore, today's motion is important in many aspects and I also agree that it is very important to make community building efforts, establish multi-stratum communities and solve the unemployment problem of young people. Yet, it is most important to tackle the problems of us adults first.

I so submit. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, your time is up.

MR AMBROSE CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, today's debate is about the problem of young people and youngster gangs. As many Honourable colleagues have said, the problem of young people have various causes and we can hardly find the major factor contributing to the problem. Therefore, we should tackle the problem by all means and from all directions.

Although the problem has many causes, I believe the fundamental causes are the difficulties young people face in respect of studies, work or emotions. They are highly energetic and they need ways to expend their energy. I appreciate the fact that Mr HO Sai-chu has suggested many solutions to the problem in today's motion debate.

I would like to look at the problem from another angle. I would look at the relationship between the Government, the police as a law enforcement body and the young people, and how this relationship operates when recreational and sports facilities and activities are made available in a co-ordinated way. I am going to give three examples to illustrate my points. The first example illustrates the social meanings of recreation and sports and their effects on young people and youngster gangs. They provide them with suitable facilities, activities and channels for expressing their emotions. Therefore, there are social obligations and meanings behind the principle of popularizing these activities pursued by the two Municipal Councils. When we carried out a review of district organizations, Members were worried that the consultancy report would suggest cutting resources for recreation and sports as well as cultural and art activities and facilities or even reducing government injection in these areas. In fact, of the $1.6 billion or $1.7 billion so we spend annually, 60% is spent on emoluments and only several hundred million dollars are expanded on the development of strategies for popularizing and organizing recreational and sports activities.

The second example is the youth development centre we often talk about lately. Many people are worried that Chai Wan may not be the most suitable location but I think (and I also hope that Members will fully support the expeditious implementation of this project) that this is basically a project developed for young people to provide them with sufficient facilities and ample room for activity as well as leadership training. If we are concerned about the problem of youngster gangs, we should then fully support the implementation of this project.

The third example is the relationship between the Government, young people and law enforcement officers mentioned earlier. In fact, the relationship between the police and the young people should not be that of police officers against bandits. We have a Junior Police Call programme in Hong Kong while there is a Police Athletic League Programme in the United States. The latter Programme is particularly successful in New Jersey in the United States. The population of New Jersey is similar to that of Hong Kong, around 7 million to 8 million. Their basic concept is to contact young people as early as possible through a recreational and sports programme and establish a relationship between police officers and young people by means of recreation and sports. Their logic is to establish a positive link between young people and law enforcement officers so that young people respect law enforcement officers while law enforcement officers help them establish the civic value of abiding by the laws and a positive outlook. The programme sets off with recreation and sports and gradually discusses with young people such issues as narcotics, alcohol and even sex. In fact, they will touch upon all issues young people will come to face. Later, they will counsel young people in different areas. For instance, police officers will assist them in grasping computer or other knowledge and even help them solve the problems they have in respect of homework. The concept actually asks young people to positively evaluate police officers and establish a positive relationship with them rather than regarding police officers as marshals going after bandits. In this way, young people can develop a positive attitude towards law enforcement officers, law and discipline and law-abiding behaviour since childhood and they will naturally become law-abiding citizens when they grow up. I think such a programme merits active participation, promotion and consideration by the Government. It should inject resources and use recreation and sports as a starting point to promote the forging of such a relationship between law enforcement officers and young people and solve all other problems encountered by young people. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member responded)

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I would like to thank Honourable Members for their very useful opinions in respect of this motion today. In formulating welfare policies for young people, we will give careful consideration and follow up the matter.

The Government is also deeply shocked by the brutal means employed by youngster gangs in committing crime recently. In this respect, the Working Group on Services for Youth at Risk, chaired by the Director of Social Welfare, has recently embarked on a special task for an in-depth study on recent crimes involving youngster gangs. We hope to, through understanding their family backgrounds and factors leading to the crimes, propose corresponding strategies and measures to deal with the problem of youngster gangs. This special study is expected to be completed in September this year.

The Government has all along attached great importance to the nurture of young people and been concerned about problems related to youngster gangs. But before explaining in detail the measures that we will take in various aspects, I would like to start by introducing the co-ordinating mechanisms currently set up by government departments, schools and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) for the purpose of giving support to our young people.

Just now, a number of Members mentioned that young people are society's valuable assets. We must try our best to give them support and encouragement in order to help them become good citizens who have a good sense of responsibility, abide by the law, and contribute to society. A number of government departments and subvented organizations are now implementing some specific measures to provide assistance to youngsters. These measures are all complementary in nature, and they also reflect the various objectives and goals laid down for promoting the healthy growth of young people in society. Allocation for youth welfare services for this fiscal year amounts to $1.4 billion. This fully proves the Government's determination in nurturing young people.

In the area of welfare services, the Social Welfare Department (SWD), the police, the Education Department (ED) and a number of NGOs have provided young people with comprehensive educational and counselling services. In the area of promoting the development of young people, the Home Affairs Bureau has a long-standing practice of consulting the Commission on Youth and the Committee on the Promotion of Civic Education on the organization of various activities for the purpose of strengthening co-operation in various aspects, raising the level of service and fostering the youngsters' sense of civic responsibility and care for the community.

At the district level, the SWD has set up in various districts Local Committees on Services for Young People. Members of the Committees include social service organizations, schools and representatives from government departments such as the SWD, the police and so on. They are responsible for liaising with different service units in the community to formulate strategies to take full care of the needs of young people. For instance, a Youth Care Net set up in Kowloon City provides service to youths at risk by way of cross-professional co-operation. This is one of the successful examples under the promotion of the Local Committees on Services for Young People. The Local Committee in Sha Tin has also planned to co-operate with universities to study the impact of Sha Tin's regional characteristics on juvenile delinquency of young people for follow-up action.

A Working Group on Services for Youth at Risk was set up in 1993 to strengthen co-ordination among the Government NGOs. The goal of the Working Group, with the Director of Social Welfare as its chairman, is to strengthen co-operation among various sectors in studying the problems of young people jointly and proposing effective measures in light of the welfare service demands of youths at risk.

Over the recent years, the Working Group has made a number of useful recommendations which have subsequently been accepted and implemented by the Government and NGOs. Let me cite a few examples:

(1) It has re-focused the work of children's centres and youth centres to ensure that services provided can help young people vulnerable to undesirable influences. In Hong Kong, a number of youth centres were set up in the '60s and '70s. The demand at that time might differ greatly from the demand nowadays. Therefore, the scope of service, mode of service or programmes provided by these youth centres might need to undergo substantial reform;

(2) It is responsible for pomoting liaision among various sectors in the district for the purpose of fighting juvenile delinquency through the District Fight Crime Committees;

(3) It has launched a pilot project by appointing two youth social work teams to provide young night-drifters with on-the-spot crisis intervention services as well as identifying youths at risk by way of a screening tool for the purpose of providing service expeditiously to prevent young people from going astray; and

(4) Just as Mr HO Sai-chu said earlier, family care is of utmost importance insofar as the development of young people is concerned. Therefore, we will strengthen parental education and improve family relations through the Family Life Education Programme.

We provide out-reaching social workers with in-depth professional training in dealing with youth problems to ensure that they can effectively guide youths at risk to receive the services specially designed for them. These social workers need to have an in-depth understanding and knowledge of the relevant legislation, gangster behaviour and even the sub-culture of triad societies. As far as case counselling is concerned, they should also be particularly sensitive to the psychological needs and behaviour responses of youths at risk.

There are indeed a lot of examples of co-operation among government departments and NGOs. The police, social service organizations and schools have been co-operating with one another in solving youth problems. Let me introduce to Members a few innovative schemes to prove this point:

(1) The police have launched a new scheme called "Project X" in Tuen Mun under the joint co-operation of the Lingnan College and NGOs for the purpose of setting a good example for young offenders. By acquainting students from the Lingnan College with young people in the district who are in need of counselling, it is hoped that they can foster a close link so as to help the young offenders to stay away from crime;

(2) A Community Youth Enhancement Scheme was implemented in both Tai Po and Tin Shui Wai. The targets of the Scheme are those students who have been cautioned under the Police Superintendent Discretionary Scheme; and

(3) "Project Polar Star" and a "Community Youth Dynamic Scheme" were implemented in Yuen Long and Tai Po respectively. The objective of these two schemes is to refer youngsters wandering on the streets to welfare institutions for follow-up counselling and concrete assistance.

The abovementioned innovative schemes have been made possible through the joint efforts of the police, SWD, NGOs and schools.

A number of Members have expressed their concern about the problem of jobless youngsters. The Secretary for Education and Manpower will explain to Members the relevant measures adopted by the Government later. But I wish to add that the Working Group on Services for Youth at Risk has also examined this issue and planned to implement in schools a pilot scheme jointly organized by the SWD and ED with a view to strengthening vocational education. The objective of the scheme is to provide Secondary Three students with general vocational education so that young people who intend to leave school after Secondary Three will know what vocational training opportunities are available to them. It is hoped that, through the joint efforts of careers masters, school social workers and people engaging in youth work in the community, we can provide early assistance to students who intend to leave school. This one-year pilot scheme will be implemented in three schools. If the scheme is considered to be effective upon its completion, we will consider whether we should implement it in a wider context.

Several Members have also mentioned the problems relating to the living environment, planning and crime. We agree that, in order to prevent youngsters from ganging up, we must eliminate crime blackspots as early as possible, particularly crime blackspots in newly-developed or redeveloped communities. In this respect, the Crime Prevention Bureau under the police has performed an active role. One of its ongoing efforts is to examine the designs of new buildings in order to eliminate crime blackspots.

With reference to the opinions given by the Crime Prevention Bureau, the Housing Authority has, since 1994, embarked on strengthening the security facilities of its housing estates by installing burglar-proof gates, closed circuit televisions and recording equipment as well as improving the arrangement for the deployment of security guards. Additional facilities installed over the years have been well received by residents and proved to be of definite help in combating crime.

Mr HO Sai-chu mentioned earlier that it was most important for us to know how to make good use of our existing public resources in order to achieve the maximum effectiveness. I fully agree with this. I have mentioned earlier that we have a provision of approximately $1.4 billion for youth welfare services. In view of the size of the provision, we are indeed obliged to ensure that the money is used in an appropriate manner to provide the community with the most cost-effective services. Allocation of resources should also be adjusted in light of the needs and characteristics of young people in various districts.

The Working Group on Services for Youth at Risk has identified some of the worst districts in terms of juvenile delinquency. Moreover, the Working Group has urged the District Fight Crime Committees of the relevant districts to formulate strategies for solving problems and organizing appropriate publicity activities in the districts. On the other hand, the SWD is now conducting a strategic demand assessment for the purpose of distributing resources for youth welfare services more flexibly and taking care of districts with more youth problems. The SWD has also tried to strengthen co-ordination among various service institutions through the Local Committees on Services for Young People of the relevant districts. By adopting these measures, we strongly believe we can satisfy the needs of the districts more effectively.

A number of Members have expressed their views on the school social service. We are aware that the service provided by school social workers is of parament importance to young people. It is for this reason that we have been trying our best in improving this service in recent years. Over the past seven years, the number of school social workers has increased drastically to 300. We understand that schools provide the easiest channel for us to identify the welfare needs of young people. We can also provide students with educational and counselling service as part of general education. In view of the concerns expressed by the public about school social workers, the SWD set up the Working Group on Review of School Social Work Service at end 1996 to review work in this aspect in a comprehensive manner. The review has now been completed.

We are now studying the recommendations made by the Working Group, including re-defining the role of school social workers, formulating a set of comprehensive professional guidelines for improving the operation of services and setting up a more effective co-ordinating mechanism through Local Committees on Children and Youth Services for promoting co-ordination among schools and various youth service units within the communities.

I have listened very carefully to Members' comments on the staffing problem of school social workers. In responding to the recommendations made by the Working Group, the Government will take into account the views of various sectors. The Social Welfare Advisory Committee will also hold discussions next week on how to make good use of our existing resources for the purpose of strengthening the manpower of school social workers to satisfy the needs of students. I hope the Committee will support our proposal for boosting the number of social workers.

A number of Members have pointed out the enormous impact of the media on young people. The existing Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance has provided for matters relating to the regulation of the publication of these articles (including printed matter and electronic publications). The Ordinance has also provided that the Obscene Articles Tribunal shall be responsible for the classification of articles. Being a judicial organ, the Obscene Articles Tribunal has power to judge and assess whether a certain article is obscene or indecent.

The Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority has recently completed an opinion poll on the operation of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance. The Information Technology and Broadcasting Bureau is now reviewing the Ordinance in the light of the poll findings with a view to improving the operation and effectiveness of the Ordinance. The classification system is also included in the scope of the review. The Information Technology and Broadcasting Bureau will consult the public on the proposals to improve the existing regulation system later this year.

As far as penalties and rehabilitation are concerned, we will definitely give young offenders a chance to turn over a new leaf and re-integrate into the community through various community and institution training schemes. This is also the wish of a lot of Members. We agree that appropriate penalties can help curb crime, including juvenile delinquency. If there is such a need, we will review the relevant legislation and consider whether we should impose heavier penalties for certain crimes.

But it may be equally important, or even more important, for us to launch effective rehabilitation schemes for young offenders so as to help them start a new life. In this respect, we have provided a series of community services to help them to re-integrate into the community. The Community Support Service Scheme is one of this kind of services. Under this systematic rehabilitation scheme, we will provide young offenders with social and vocational training and opportunities for serving the community in an intensive manner, with a view to arousing their interests to pursue study or seeking employment.

Over the years, the SWD has actively implemented the Volunteer Scheme for Probationers, which Members might not be too familiar with. The objective of the Scheme is to encourage the public to help youngsters under probation to turn over a new leaf. Voluntary workers from different trades and professions, such as tertiary students, teachers, civil servants and so on, will try to strike up a friendship with probationers and guide them as to how to make good use of their leisure time and help them in solving their academic problems. This voluntary worker service has a profound and positive impact on young offenders.

Mr Deputy, young people are the masters of our future. We must invest in each of them, particularly those youths at risk who have gone astray since their teens and those who are in need of help.

I believe I have fully explained to Members the various measures taken by the Government in response to this issue as well as the general measures taken for the promotion of youth development. But I must stress that as the demands of young people are constantly changing as a result of social progress, our policies and measures will also need to make corresponding adjustment to cope with the needs of the young generation in society. Of course, the Government will, as usual, make unceasing efforts in this area.

THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I wish to thank the Honourable HO Sai-chu for moving this motion in which he urged the Government to adopt a comprehensive package of measures to protect the development of young people. His views are valuable. I also wish to thank other Members for their views. I totally agree that the healthy physical and mental development of young people is extremely important. I will speak on school education for young people and their unemployment problem.

The Government is of the view that the education on ethics, morality and the rule of law is very important to the development of young people and social stability. Therefore, the Education Department (ED) has been assisting schools through various channels in carrying out moral and civic education, and these measures include:

(i) issuing guidelines to schools and teachers to remind them of the need to cultivate moral concepts and good character among students so as to make them adopt a correct attitude towards life, school and society, as well as respect other people and self-disciplined;

(ii) organizing seminars, workshops and training courses on various subjects; and

(iii) assisting teachers in carrying out moral and civic education through the establishment of the Religious and Ethical Education Resources Centre and the Civic Education Resources Centre, the publication of reference materials and arranging for inspectors to visit schools and so on.

The Student Discipline Section of the ED was set up in 1996 to provide professional support to schools in respect of discipline, including drawing up class and school regulations and their implementation, disciplinary system, the operation of crisis-handling groups, and the work of disciplinary and guidance groups. Regarding the problem of youngster gangs, the Section established a network of "Study on Youngster Gangs" among 15 schools in Sai Kung and Tseung Kwan O in April last year, and invited school principals, discipline masters, police representatives and out-reaching social workers to exchange experience and to form a support network to strengthen schools' ability to handle and prevent the problem of youngster gangs and follow up with the relevant developments. The Section will continue to launch similar programmes at the district level.

The Government set up the Committee on Home-School Co-operation in 1993 to promote co-operation between families and schools. As for the activities which are jointly organized by parents and schools, they are mainly conducted by parent-teach associations. About 50% of all public primary and secondary schools in Hong Kong have established a total of 616 parent-teacher associations. Our aim is to offer opportunities for parents to participate in affairs related to the education of their children in schools.

The Committee on Home-School Co-operation is now making preparations to organize the "Parents of the 21st Century" Movement to:

(1) arouse parents' awareness of and concern about their children's education; and

(2) promote a partnership between schools and parents.

At present, we have provided a diverse, wide-ranging and well-balanced curriculum for schools in Hong Kong and the main areas cover mathematics, science, communication, technology and practical skills, social studies and ethics and, physical and aesthetic education.

We agree that informal curriculum forms an important part of the overall curriculum. Extra-curricular activities related to school subjects, interests, sports, recreation and social services will enable students to improve their skills in handling social and interpersonal relations, as well as enhance their sense of responsibility and civic awareness.

We provide appropriate support for students with special needs. For example, the ED has set up schools for social development, skills opportunity schools and practical schools respectively for those who have difficulties in making adjustment, have serious difficulties in learning or are academically less motivated. These three categories of schools put more emphasis on technical and practical subjects to inspire students' interests to learn and provide technical and practical training for those students who are more interested in practical subjects, so as to enhance their knowledge and skills in handling interpersonal relations and their social experience.

Schools belonging to these three categories have smaller class size, and better ratio of teachers to classes. In addition, they have school social workers to provide care and counselling services to students.

The special education subgroup of the Education Commission is currently reviewing the effectiveness of skills opportunity schools and practical schools and will make recommendations to the Government on the future development of these schools.

The Government also provides additional support for schools admitting students whose academic performance is less than satisfactory, such as additional teachers so that these schools can participate in the "School-Based Curriculum Tailoring Scheme" and "School-Based Remedial Support Programme", and additional clerical support and better ratio of social workers to the number of schools.

Educational Psychologists of the ED will make learning and psychological assessments of students in need and provide counselling service for students who are in low spirits, who have behavioural problems or difficulties in learning, as well as assisting schools in handling crises and training. Moreover, the Special Education Inspection Section organizes regular seminars and workshops every year to help teachers to upgrade their teaching skills so as to enhance the motivation of students with less satisfactory academic performance and to improve their self-image.

All these measures will not guarantee that there will not students who are lax in discipline or break the law. As a matter of fact, although we provide a compulsory nine-year education, young people are susceptible to the influence of the media and the words and deeds of their parents or family members in their development. I therefore totally agree with the views of Mr HO Sai-chu and many other Members that the solution to the problem of youngster gangs lies in the involvement of the entire community.

The education of young people is not the sole responsibility of the Government and schools. Of course, it is incumbent upon us to assume this responsibility and we should spare no efforts to play our part in this respect. Nevertheless, it is also incumbent upon every parent to take on this responsibility. I very much agree with Miss Sophie LEUNG's view that, as parents, we should not just bring our children to this world without taking on the responsibility of raising them. Nor should we just raise them without educating them. We should not shirk our responsibility with the excuse of personal feelings or economic difficulties. I agree that the Government should provide more opportunities for parents to conduct quality family education. But we must bear in mind that each of our words and deeds will affect our children's attitude towards life and values. Furthermore, I do not think there is a connection between wealth and conduct. A young person with problems could have come from a wealthy family or a poor family. By the same token, many highly respected persons do not come from wealthy families. But the good sense and exemplary deeds of their parents and elder family members have guided them to success. I promise that I will give top priority to the enhancement of counselling service for young people with problems in the context of school education.

I have talked and written about the social responsibility of the media on numerous occasions. Nowadays, reports and supplements in quite a number of newspapers and TV programmes use exaggerating styles in their reporting and play up violence and sex in order to attract viewers or increase circulation. Several Members have also mentioned this point. I have found something ridiculous and lamentable in that the same newspaper or magazine lectures on moral standards in its editorial but offers guidance in its supplements on how to find prostitutes. Such schizophrenic newspapers and magazines are affecting on a daily basis young people who are not mature enough to judge the rights and wrongs. Some people say that the media are just here to satisfy the desire of readers or viewers. Are survival and profits the only thing in the minds of media bosses while their influence on young people is not their business? I am very interested to see what concrete effect this debate will have on the reporting styles and the supplement contents of those newspapers or magazines with the largest circulation. I suspect that they may find this debate too uninteresting to report at all.

On the solution to the unemployment problem, the first and foremost task for the Government is to help the unemployed to find jobs as quickly as possible and to learn the required skills so as to stay competitive in the labour market in order to find jobs and stay in jobs.

We have therefore spared no efforts to push forward our task in many areas, which mainly include the enhancement in job placement service and vocational training. These measures will benefit people of various age groups, including young people. The Government also provides opportunities through various schemes for young people to participate in community service so that they can gain working experience and enhance their ability to find jobs.

On job placement service, the Local Employment Service Office of the Labour Department offers employment service for job-seekers of various age groups. In addition, the Labour Department has also set up a Careers Advisory Service especially to offer guidance on employment to young people. Every year, the Careers Advisory Service hosts a variety of activities on employment to help young people to know more about their competence and ability, and disseminates information about jobs more widely.

On vocational training, the Vocational Training Council (VTC) is currently providing full-time, evening and part-time courses on vocational education and training for Secondary Three, Secondary Five and Secondary Seven graduates. The number of such training places available for 1999-2000 is about 120 000.

Starting from this September, the VTC will offer a new full-time one-year diploma course for 2 000 Secondary Five graduates with three passes in the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination. The VTC will also provide a two-year evening certificate course with a total enrollment of 760. These courses aim at improving trainees' overall ability, especially their ability to communicate and to use information technology.

Moreover, the VTC will also organize a two-year full-time certificate course and a three-year part-time certificate course from this September onwards for 1 400 Secondary Three graduates. These courses are classified into service and engineering categories.

The Construction Industry Training Authority is currently providing full-time craft foundation courses for Secondary Three and Secondary Five graduates and will increase the enrollment of its full-time training course from about 6 300 in 1998-99 to about 7 700 in 1999-2000.

On the provision of opportunities for young people to participate in community service, the Government has allocated $10 million to support the Youth Community Service Funding Scheme. The purpose of the Scheme, which is organized by the Commission on Youth, is to promote voluntary community work as a form of training for the development of young people. The Scheme will enable school leavers to participate in meaningful community service and gain valuable experience before entering the labour market. In the course of participation in the Scheme, they can learn leadership and interpersonal skills, strengthen their sense of civic responsibility and commitment to the community. The first stage of this Scheme which was launched in October 1998 and will end in June 1999 has been well received by community service agencies, during which a total of 110 community service projects were implemented with a total of 90 000 person-times involved and the actual number of young volunteers was about 3 800. The overall reaction from organizers of the community service projects and young volunteers has been positive and encouraging. The Commission on Youth will launch the second stage of the Scheme during this summer. Judging by the experience gained from the first stage, it is estimated that a total of about 100 000 young person-times will be involved in the Scheme with the actual number of young volunteers topping 4 000.

The Task Force on Employment chaired by the Financial Secretary has been very concerned about unemployment among young people and held a seminar on this issue recently. We are concerned about a large number of young people with secondary graduation qualifications entering the labour market in the next several months. In view of the present economic climate, we should show more enthusiasm in helping them and providing them with the opportunities to undergo further study and training. Apart from helping them to acquire certain skills in one field or another, we should also teach them the manner of dealing with people and instil greater self-confidence and a sense of responsibility into their minds. The Education and Manpower Bureau is studying in this respect with other Policy Bureaux and government departments, such as the Home Affairs Bureau, the Labour Department, the Education Department and the Social Welfare Department, as well as training bodies. We will also co-operate with employers, voluntary agencies and social welfare service organizations with a view to making specific arrangements to better equip young people who will complete secondary education this year in preparation for entering the labour market.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Sai-chu, you may now reply and you have up to two minutes and three seconds.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, as Honourable Members have expressed almost identical views, I do not need to give a specific reply in such a short span of time.

First, I have to thank some 20 Honourable colleagues for speaking in support of my motion. Actually, the motion I moved represents the views of other Members and professionals outside this Council. I am very pleased that Members support this motion unanimously.

Secondly, I have to thank the two Secretaries for listening to our debate in detail and promising to adopt all measures feasible. I am still worried because I know from the two Secretaries' remarks that they have done a lot, but the problem has not been reduced. It has aggravated instead. Therefore, the Government may really have to consider our suggestions seriously to see if we have failed to suit the remedy to the case or have not done enough. I hope that Honourable colleagues and I will follow this up and spend some time and make efforts in our Panels to remove the bomb next to our feet. We do not want it to explode out of a sudden without precautions taken. I also hope that the Government will earnestly reconsider our suggestions and take useful measures so that we can really solve the problem of youngster gangs and make young people constructive members of the community.

With these remarks, Madam President, I urge Members to support the motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That Mr HO Sai-chu's motion be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, who are present. I declare the motion passed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second motion: Naming the Former Government House.

NAMING THE FORMER GOVERNMENT HOUSE

Mr Howard YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion which has been printed on the Agenda.

My motion today is very much different from the one we have just dealt with, as that was a very lengthy motion, perhaps longer than a speech. Though my motion may not be the shortest motion in history, the number of repeated words my motion has used should be the highest. The numbers of words used in my motion and its English translation, excluding the repititions, are but 14 and 13 respectively.

The Government House used to be the official residence of the Hong Kong Governor appointed by the British Government. With the departure of the last British Governor, the Government House has been referred to as the "former Government House" since the reunification of Hong Kong with China. Instead of making it his official residence, the first Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) prefers to use the former Government House as an official banquet hall or conference centre to receive overseas visitors or political figures. There have been views that the historical changes or the end of the colonial rule over Hong Kong should be reflected, and that the term "former Government House" is more like a description than a proper name; as such, the Government has suggested re-naming the former Government House and set up a task force for this purpose.

The objective of my motion today is to urge the Government to retain the name "former Government House". According to my understanding, the Government so far has not come up with a name better than this one. An Honourable Member has considered amending the motion but abandoned the idea on second thought, for he knew that even if he could come up with a better name, there was no guarantee that his amendment could be passed. "Government House" is a well-known name in Hong Kong, and we all know what it stands for. It has the appeal, the attraction, and even the mystique that people go after these days, simply everything that a symbol of a cultural relic needs; as such, "Former Government House" should be the most suitable name for this historical building.

The construction work of the Government House was commenced in 1851 and eventually completed in 1885. Starting from the fourth Governor, Sir Bowring, up until the last Governor, Christopher Patten, the Governor of Hong Kong had all used the Government House as their residence. The original Georgian architecture of the building was rich in colonial flavour, but the Japanese army occupying it during the Second World War had made some alternations and added in some Japanese style architectural features. So, this former Government House which demonstrates a mixture of European and Japanese styles has witnessed the history of Hong Kong during both the British colonial rule and the Japanese invasion years. Since the reunification, the people of Hong Kong have been referring to the building as the "former Government House". The word "former" is added before "Government House" to denote the historical fact that the British colonial rule had gone forever; besides, it also serves to highlight the historical value of the building as well as the important role it has played. In fact, a great many people consider "Former Government House" a lot better than the proposed "Purple Cottage" in terms of representativeness and appeal.

I should like to clarify here that supporting the proposal to preserve the name "former Government House" is different from musing on the past era of British colonial rule. On the contrary, by adding in the word "former", as I said before, the name would serve to denote the fact that with the establishment of the SAR and the sovereignty of Hong Kong returned to China, we have entered into the new era. If the Chief Executive should make the former Government House his official residence after the reunification, we would have rightly named it "Chief Executive House". However, instead of making it his official residence, the Chief Executive has only used it occasionally for reception purposes like receiving overseas visitors, holding important banquets, or conducting conferences. As such, I believe that if the former Government House should be named "Former Government House", it should be able to preserve the status it has all along enjoyed on the one hand, and serve to signify the history of Hong Kong over the past 100-plus years.

Would naming the residence of the former Governors of Hong Kong the "Former Government House" have any derogatory implication? Perhaps it is due to cultural difference, the term "colony" does not necessarily carry any derogatory sense as its Chinese version does. According to English dictionaries, "colony" or "colonial style" does not always refer to the repression by a foreign ruler or the control over indigenous people. In addition to such historical implications, the word "colony" is often used to mean the opening up of new horizons, a place where a particular group of people lives, or an era of collaboration. In this connection, while we can refer to a swarm of bees as a colony of bees, the place where a group of artists lives can also be referred to as an artist's colony. Neither of these usages carry any derogatory implication. Besides, we can often find in tourist handouts, summarized historical accounts, or dictionaries such expressions like "the American colony in Paris" or "the Chinese colony in San Francisco", but the word "colony" used in these expressions refer to only the place where a group of non-indigenous people lives, not a place under the control of foreign rulers. Moreover, some science fictions may also talk about human beings migrating to the outer space to set up a earth colony; in such cases, the word "colony" will also imply the exploration of new horizons. Nevertheless, I agree that the term "殖民地" does carry a derogatory sense in the Chinese language.

The tourism industry has attached great importance to the naming of the former Government House. This is not a simple task to give the former Government House an official new name, for the new name will affect the propaganda and promotional efforts of the tourism industry in the future. In this connection, the tourist handouts, publications and leaflets have so far been referring to the place as the "former Government House". Since the former Government House is not frequently open to the public, its open day could always attract a great many visitors. Besides, the industry has also used the open day of the former Government House as one of the tourist attractions and made every effort to include the visit to the former Government House in the Hong Kong Island city tours; when the tours pass by the front door of the building, the tourist guides will tell our visitors that the place is our former Government House. As early as before the reunification, the industry had already indicated their support for the proposal to transform the former Government House into a museum, with a view to turning this historical building into another tourist attraction. If it had been so decided, I might have moved today a motion to name the former Government House "Museum". Although the proposal to turn the former Government House into a museum has not been accepted, it has at least pointed to the importance and value of this historical building to the tourism industry. Certainly the new name of the former Government House would have an impact on the future promotional efforts of the tourism industry, but regrettably the Government has not directly consulted the industry in the naming exercise despite the presence of a consultation channel. Instead, the new name was determined by but a few task force members and the public was not informed of the criteria and standards for choosing the new name. In this connection, some members of the industry have considered the manner in which the naming exercise had been conducted was not transparent enough. Bearing in mind that the direct impact the new name of the former Government House will have on the promotional work of the tourism industry, and that its implication is far more than just a new name, should not the industry be involved in the exercise; should the Government not consult the industry extensively before deciding on the new name? In this connection, I should like to point out also that a great many people just cannot understand why the Government has to decide on a new name in such a hurry and rush in a renaming exercise. What points of argument does the Government have? Many of us just could not understand.

As regards "Purple Cottage", the new name proposed by the task force, it has failed to win the support of the tourism industry but aroused many voices of objection. Many have found this new name lacking in representativeness, special flavour, appeal and so on. Indeed, it is very hard for one to associate "Purple Cottage" with the residence of Governors in the past era; there is hardly any connection between the two. As reflected in the result of a questionnaire survey conducted by the tourism industry, some 80% of the respondents have agreed that the former Government House should be named "Former Government House"; in other words, they have considered it a better choice to keep the name unchanged. The tourism industry holds that the historical value and meaning of any cultural relics should be preserved; as such, I believe the industry will still be introducing the former Government House to our visitors as the "Former Government House", regardless of whatever new names it will be called, for this is the most effective way to relate to our visitors the historical importance and meaning of the building.

I so submit, Madam President. Mr Howard YOUNG moved the following motion:

"That this Council urges the Government to officially name the former Government House "Former Government House"." PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Howard YOUNG, as set out on the Agenda, be passed.

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Madam President, because of our stand of respecting history, the Democratic Party supports the motion.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, naming the former Government House has become an issue of public concern in 1999 as well as an entertaining discussion topic for the public. It is said that the Government has received thousands of suggestions, and that objections of an even greater number were received after the Government had announced its intention to name the former Government House "Purple Cottage".

Naming courts and gardens is an activity of refined taste in Chinese tradition; besides, it can also put one's literary talent to the test. Readers of Dream of the Red Chamber would certainly have a vivid impression of the chapter on JIA Baoyu naming Da Guan Yuan. After JIA Yuanchun, JIA Baoyu's eldest sister who was also a highest ranking imperial concubine, had named the compound Da Guan Yuan, JIA Baoyu was ordered by his "strict" father, JIA Zheng, to name the structures within the compound in front of those hangers-on who were good at taking cue from his words and facial expressions in addition to flattering and toadying. In fear and trepidation, JIA Baoyu finally came up with such names as Xiaoxiang Hall, Yihong Court, Daoxiang Villa, Hengwu Garden and so on. In my opinion, these names sound much better than "Purple Cottage". Certainly, the literary talent of the author of Dream of the Red Chamber, Mr CAO Xueqin, should have played a very important part here.

Confucius said, "Names shall be rectified! If names not rectified, speeches will not be justifiable." In making this statement, Confucius was urging that one's name should match with his own quality, and that one's ideas should be presented in a clear and precise manner. In regard to the Honourable Howard YOUNG's proposal to name the former Government House "Former Government House", I am afraid this should very much be open to discussion.

If we take a closer look, we can see that the literal meaning of "Former Government House" "needs to be rectified", and hence it is "not justifiable" as a name. For if there is a Former Government House, there must be a latter Government House, but where is that Latter Government House? If Hong Kong is still under the British colonial rule and the Governor is moving his residence to a new place, than it is appropriate to refer to the old place as the "Former Government House". However, the Government House is not occupied any more; the British Governor used to live there has gone and there will never be any successors moving into the place; as such, it is not correct to name the place "Former Government House". During the early years of the Republic of China, the AIXINJUELUO family was driven out of their Imperial Palace, since then, the Imperial Palace has been referred to as "Gu Gong", the past palace. Why has it not been named "Former Palace"? This is because the public would then wonder if the emperor has moved to a new palace. For this reason, if we should wish to keep the two words "Government House", we would perhaps name the former Government House "Past Government House", and in short, "Past House". (Laughter) While Beijing has a past palace, we also have a Past House in Hong Kong. However, since "Past House" as a name does not read very sonorously, I am afraid many people will object to it.

If we are to follow the principle of matching the name with the reality, we need to first figure out the real usage of the place or determine what role it should play before giving it a name. If it should be regarded as a "relic", then as I said before, it should best be named "Past Government House". However, if the Government should use it as a venue to hold official receptions or a guest house, the name "Former Government House" would need to be rectified. Suppose the Queen of the United Kingdom or the British Prime Minister Tony Blair visits Hong Kong, and Mr TUNG Chee-hwa invites Her Majesty to stay in the Former Government House, the Queen might find it a heart-warming experience to recall the good old days in the Former Government House; however, if Mr JIANG Zemin visits Hong Kong and Mr TUNG invites him to dinner at the Former Government House, I am afraid this is not a justifiable idea. Indeed, it would sound too absurd.

Madam President, I respect the reality, and that is why I do not raise any objection to the proposal to retain such names as Queen's Road Central and so on. On the other hand, taking into account the fact that certain people of Hong Kong ─ of course I am not referring to Mr Howard YOUNG ─ seem to enjoy musing on the colonial past, I should like to propose yet another name for Honourable Members' consideration. I think we could also consider naming the former Government House "Poppy Court". Firstly, this name is closely related to the history of Hong Kong. The past and present development of Hong Kong all began with poppy. More than a hundred years ago there was the Opium War, and the war was won by those people who forced others to buy their opium. As a result, a British Governor was sent to rule over Hong Kong. Soon the Government House was constructed, so was the "army head" garden, for the Governor was in fact the head of the British forces in Hong Kong. But naming the former Government House "Opium Court" would be too direct and too undisguised, so I believe "Poppy Court" should be more subtle and full of historical charm. Secondly, poppy flowers are in fact very beautiful, comparable to Carnations; besides, the fact that opium is made from poppy seeds is solely the fault of human beings, not the poppy's. Moreover, "罌粟" (poppy) are two very lucky Chinese characters. The lower half of "罌", "缶", is a ceramic pot, and on top of it are two "貝", which means precious things and money; so the two parts of the character combine together would mean a pot full of money and precious things. As for the character "粟", while its upper half, "西", means the West, its lower half, "米", looks like the Union Jack, so the two parts together would mean the Union Jack from the western world was once flown in this place, (laughter) reminiscent of a page of our history.

I think Honourable colleagues will all find this name very interesting, but there are even more interesting names. Madam President, bearing in mind that the place was constructed for official use by the Government, I should like to propose yet another name for Members' consideration. People who have been to Suzhou would have visited a famous garden called "The Humble Administrator's Garden". The Humble Administrator's Garden was a masterpiece of Chinese landscape architecture by a Ming Dynasty landscape architect, and was given a very elegant name which served to reflect the political ideology of Mr WANG Xianchen, an imperial officer during the Jiajing years of the Ming Dynasty who held that "one with high capability should behave humbly like one with none". So, if the former Government House should be named "The Humble Administrator's Garden", it would serve to reflect the modesty and prudence of the Government; besides, it would also help to narrow the gap between the Government and the public, since only a good Administration would consider itself "humble". The only problem with this is that there is already a Garden in Suzhou called "The Humble Administrator's Garden". Nevertheless, if this name should be taken into consideration in the future, the Government may perhaps modify it by adding some appropriate administration concepts.

Madam President, I cannot say with confidence that the public will accept names like "Past House", "Poppy House", "The Humble Administrator's Garden", and so on which I have proposed just now; as such, I should like to put forward yet another proposal, which is to suspend the naming exercise. Perhaps we could follow the example of the famous "Unnamed Lake" in Beijing University and called the former Government House the "Unnamed House" for the time being. That way, we can continue the public consultation until we can come up with a name that very few people will object to.

With these remarks, I oppose the motion.

MR GARY CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I rise to speak on behalf of the Honourable Members from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB).

Members from the DAB do not like the name "Purple House" simply because we do not like it. We are also opposed to naming the former Government House "Former Government House" as proposed by Mr Howard YOUNG in his motion today for two reasons. First, we do not like this name; and second, from a linguistic point of view, "Former Government House" cannot be regarded as a proper name.

I so submit.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, what is in a name? A rose by another name would smell as sweet. Under what circumstances should names be changed? What must be taken into consideration before changing a name?

A name, whether it belongs to a person, an organization or a building, though may seem very simple, is in fact very important. This is because a name is considered, in both its objective and subjective senses, the symbol of one's status, class, image, character and background. As the adage goes: "Ill fate could do one less harm than an unsuitable name does".

Nevertheless, if the original meaning behind a name has changed, the name should naturally be changed as well. The issue before this Council is exactly this.

As things have changed with the times, the name "Government House" adopted by the British Hong Kong Government is no longer considered suitable. Surely the name must be changed. But in what manner and according to what principles should the name be changed; and, more importantly, what should the new name be?

The Government under the Chief Executive, or I should say the Government of the Special Administrative Region (SAR), has made a fuss to invite suggestions for the new name; however, after some selection processes, a name 100% identical to that of a private residential house at Clear Water Bay Road was chosen. In regard to this name which could be suspected of being a copycat's work, many learned persons have already explained, assessed and discussed it from different angles and I do not wish to repeat any of their views here. I am glad to hear that the parties concerned will reconsider this proposed name which has failed to receive general approval. In this connection, I hope that those who have the power to decide on the issue could adopt an open-minded attitude to respect the wishes of the people of Hong Kong, instead of acting against the public opinion just to save their faces.

Madam President, as Mr Howard YOUNG has already given an account of his survey result, I should like to concentrate on the merits of the name "Former Government House".

After Mr Howard YOUNG had proposed his motion, the issue was given extensive coverage by the media; since then, members of the public have been expressing their views on the proposal enthusiastically. According to the extensive public consultation conducted by the various branch offices of the Liberal Party in their respective districts, the public in general are very much in favour of the name "Former Government House", practically no objections have been raised. This is a strong and powerful consensus, how could the Government turn a deaf ear to it?

During a Chief Executive's Question and Answer session held in this Council, the Chief Executive compared renaming the former Government House to matters that should be left to grandpa and dad. I am afraid this is too paternalist a mentality. But paternalism is just incompatible with the needs of Hong Kong these days, for it seems to have overlooked the fact that the child has come of age already. Moreover, our social mode also holds that names should be clear, easily understandable, and capable of reflecting our history.

Madam President, there has been a very strange view which holds that "Former Government House" is not a proper name. In this connection, some government officials have even considered the name an adjective; it really beats me. Besides, there are also others who say "Former Government House" is but a description. Allow me to say that such kind of an attitude is outdated and rigid. Language is living. It is created as well as continuously modified by man to fit the times. For instance, the term "former dynasty" has been given a new meaning in this Chamber since the Legislative Council of the SAR was established. As regards proper names, if the word "new" could be added to old names to form new ones like "New MA Shi-zeng" and "New Zealand", why can we not add the word "former" to existing names to reflect their former function?

It was reported a couple of days ago that Mr LEUNG Chun-ying, chairman of the renaming task force, had queried the appropriateness of "Former Government House" as the name of an official venue to receive foreign guests. However, as far as I understand it, the English name of the place, which is "Government House" would remain unchanged; as such, receiving foreign guests there should not be a problem. On the other hand, keeping intact those names familiar to the people would serve to recognize the historical value of the owner of the names. Mind you, the name "former Government House" is still used in the invitation card issued by the Government.

Today, Chairman LEUNG was repoted to have stressed that renaming the former Government House did not have any political implications. Should that be the case, the debate today should be focused on facts. So, I wish to advise Members from the DAB and the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance to relax and abandon the plan to vote against the motion just to avoid arousing suspicion.

Today, many Honourable colleagues have waited patiently to speak in this debate. I wonder if they also share the same idea as that of Prof the Honourable NG Ching-fai, who said earlier that he particularly wished to speak on the motion to demonstrate that he would not miss or muse on the past colonial names.

Madam President, in order to appeal to the public to indicate their support for the name "Former Government House", I have tried to find out the government e-mail address to which the public could send their supporting views; to my disappointment, the Government has only the website to promote its information in this respect, but not a single channel to receive views from the public. Fortunately, there is still this fax-line number 2842 8837. I hereby urge every member of the community to send "one person one fax" to the Government requesting it to materialize the wish of the general public and officially name the former Government House "Former Government House".

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, we had better ponder why there should be such an issue of naming the former Government House before we actually discuss the names. The major reason why the former Government House needs to have its name changed is that Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, our first Chief Executive, did not wish to move to the former Government House. Otherwise, the place could have been rightly and conveniently named "Chief Executive House" and thereby prevented any disputes whatsoever.

In regard to Mr TUNG's then decision not to move to the former Government House, as well as his subsequent decision to rename the place, neither the public opinion nor the people have made any response at all. On the contrary, I see the issue as something which merits our deep consideration. While Hong Kong has never had in the past any Governors who were unwilling to reside in the Government House, I have never heard of any Presidents of the United States who would prefer not living in the White House, nor have I heard of any British Prime Ministers not willing to move to Downing Street. So, the fact that Mr TUNG Chee-hwa has not moved to the former Government House is by no means a trivial matter. Even if we respect Mr TUNG's decision (regardless of whether it was for "fung shui" reasons or for the sake of making a clean break with the colonial past that he had so decided), it would still be worthwhile to discuss in detail the function of the former Government House. For example, if our next Chief Executive would prefer a residence provided by the Government to his own home, where could he live then? The former Government House, the Purple Cottage, or some other places? Further still, should public funds be used to construct an official residence for the Chief Executive? From this, we can see that the official residence of our future Chief Executives would indeed be an issue. For this reason, I hold that in debating this motion on the naming of the former Government House, it is most important for us to discuss the function of the former Government house, for the issue before us is not just a simple question of choosing the right name.

On the other hand, the function of the former Government House should never be determined by Mr TUNG Chee-hwa alone or by a few government officials in the Executive Council in the light of their own respective preferences or choices. In my opinion, the Government should collaborate with the people of Hong Kong to determine and formulate the principles regarding the residence of the Chief Executive in the long run.

Over the past years, there has not been any established mechanism whereby the public can participate in determining the functions and designs of or naming some representative constructions, the decision-making power lies in the hands of the Government. Decisions made in this manner have practically met with setbacks one after another. Earlier on was the design of the Central Library; this time, the renaming of the former Government House. In both cases the Government has received poor comments from all directions and was forced to give way and conduct another consultation again. As for the reunification monument which is still in its construction stage, so far no public consultation has been made in this regard.

Speaking of the design of the Central Library, although there was no public participation, it has at least been approved by some elected members of the Urban Council and could therefore be regarded as public opinion-based; but then, the Director of Urban Services has sought to repeal the decision to adopt the design in question. As regards the present case, the task force responsible for naming the former Government House had invited the public to submit their suggestions, but in the end none of the suggestions was chosen, for the task force has come up with this name "Purple Cottage". The two incidents have reflected the lack of respect for public opinion on the part of the responsible persons, who, out of their elitism, believe that their ideas and tastes are much better than that of the general public. But, mind you, these representative buildings are closely related to every member of the community. While libraries are there to serve the people, the former Government House has also been open to the public in the past (and I hope there will still be such opportunities in the future); in other words, members of the community will all have the chance to use the places, why then should the public not be allowed to participate in discussing and determining the use of the buidings? Moreover, bearing in mind that the buildings in Hong Kong in fact serve to represent the image of our city, I think a permanent mechanism should be established to enable the public to take part in determining the use, design, and even the name, of all representative buildings in Hong Kong.

Regarding those countries and cities which put more emphasis on culture, most of them have shared a common tradition of allowing the public to take part in and determine matters related to their representative buildings. For instance, before any museum, library or cultural centre is constructed, members of the relevant professions will be openly invited to submit their design plans, then the responsible parties concerned will select a few from among the submitted plans for the public to vote on, and the plan eventually chosen would be the one to be adopted. I think we should also have in place such a mechanism in Hong Kong.

Madam President, we keep talking about democracy these days, but democracy should be realized in not only the political system; democracy is not just simply letting the people to elect the Chief Executive and Members of this Council, it should in fact be realized in our daily lives as well. If the public opinion is not being respected on the social and cultural fronts or in our daily lives, a real sense of democracy could never be nurtured among us. Further still, what good will it do to have some representative buildings which the public consider as eyesores? That way, how could we help the public to develop a sense of belonging to Hong Kong? For these reasons, I hold that the most important point of discussion in this motion today is not the name to be adopted but the establishment of a mechanism whereby public participation would be made possible. In this connection, this motion debate on naming the former Government House should be a starting point.

I so submit, Madam President.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am glad to say that today I am speaking for my own self. In June last year, a task force was set up by the Government to conduct public consultation on the design of the Hong Kong reunification monument and the new name for the former Government House. Could a name acceptable to all be selected? My first idea at that time was that it would be extremely difficult.

Choosing a name for the former Government House is a case not as simple as a grandfather or a father choosing a name for the new born baby, for in the latter case, naming the baby "CHEN Meili" or "LIN Meixiang" would be equally fine.

Naming a building like the Government House, or designing an emblem for a representative institution such as this Council will by no means be an effortless job.

While different people will have a divergence of artistic perspectives, political views and aesthetic standards, choosing a name for the former Government House also carries a strong hint of subjectivity. Therefore, it would be most difficult to reach a consensus on this, if any at all.

Let me take the emblem of this Council as an example. From the last session of the former Legislative Council through to this Council, so far the Legislative Council has only a name but not an emblem. To this first Legislative Council of the Special Administrative Region (SAR), the lack of an emblem so far is indeed a fly in the ointment.

Coming back to the naming issue, I do not have any particular comments regarding the names "Former Government House" and "Purple Cottage"; however, I did mention that "Purple Cottage" as a name was a little too dull and not grand enough, and that it had already been used by another house in this city.

For these reasons, in the motion debate regarding the Labour Day held on 28 April, I have digressed a little to suggest adding "鵑花" (Azalea) to "紫廬" (Purple Cottage) to form a new name "鵑花紫廬" (Purple Azalea Cottage). I will give a brief account of my reasons later.

In regard to the proposal to keep the name "Former Government House", if it were put forward before June last year, I do not think there should be any opposing views, since this is the most "effortless" way to close the file on this. However, since the task force has already spent almost a year's time on the issue, if we should go back to square one at this stage, others will just think we are giving up halfway against the "Hong Kong Spirit" we have all along been upholding.

What if one day some perceptive tourists should ask why Hong Kong, being a famous metropolis with a galaxy of talents, could not even find a suitable name for a former government building? Although we should be able to provide an answer, I am afraid our friends in the tourism industry would have a hard time explaining everything.

The public response to this naming the former Government House exercise was very enthusiastic, as the task force has altogether collected close to 2 000 proposed names, of which more than 1 000 were received in less than four weeks. I hope that the task force could choose a suitable new name from among these 2 000 entries.

I have proposed to name the former Government House "鵑花紫廬" (Purple Azalea Cottage) for two reasons:

(1)On practical significance. The former Government House is open once every year to enable the public to enjoy the sight of azaleas in full bloom there, the people of Hong Kong are familiar with the place and could associate it with azaleas. Madam President, although cuckoos and azaleas are both called "杜鵑" in Chinese, they are two different types of living things: Cuckoos love to eat insects and are considered useful birds; azaleas are world famous ornamental plants, there are as many as 600 different species found in our country, including the wild species grown on hill slopes and those planted in gardens and courtyards.

If Honourable Members should ask the people of Hong Kong where is the most recommendable and the best place to enjoy the sight of azaleas, the answer will definitely be the former Government House. No one will recommend the Ocean Park, not to say Chater Garden.

(2)On the word "紫" (purple). I like this word because every year the SAR Government will award "紫荊勳章" (Bauhinia Medals) to people who have made contributions to the SAR. Besides, the word "紫" (purple) is also directly related to "紫荊花" (bauhinia), as well as the regional flag and regional emblem of the SAR.

For the above reasons, I have proposed to name the former Government House "鵑花紫廬".

Mr Howard YOUNG voiced his concern that the historical appeal and mystique of the former Government House would be lost if it should have a new name. I should like to take this opportunity to explain to members of the tourism industry that "Former Government House" is but an adjective, despite the objection raised by the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW just now. Even if it were a proper name, replacing it with a new one should not have any impact on historical facts. As the saying goes: "The peach blossom will come out again year after year", every blade of grass and every tree in the former Government House will remain where they have been year after year; another 100 years might have passed, but the historical significance and value of the former Government House would still be there, no one could blot them out. Let me explain with two examples. Like the then imperial library Afanggong which had been burnt down by XIANG Yu 1 000 years ago, the Yuanming Garden in Beijing was also burnt to ashes by the allied forces of Britain, Russia, Germany, France, Japan, Italy, the United States and Austria 900 years later; however, even today the names of these two places still exist, and in particular the name Yuanming Garden is as well known as it was a century ago.

Madam President, just now I might have spoken much on the name "鵑花紫廬", but I did it with no special intention in mind. I did not submit my proposed name with high expectations, for it really does not matter whether my suggestion gets selected or not. After all, that was but one of the some 2 000 entries collected. However, it is my sincere hope that this time the "genius" has "made his mark" and offered the task force a much better new name.

On the other hand, if the former Government House should have a new name, members of the tourism industry would have some additional points to speak on when they introduce the place to tourists. For instance, the 2 000 plus entries received and the debate tonight should be some interesting information which the industry could make use of for quite some time.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, your time is up.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, as this is a matter of great importance, I must speak to my script.

Madam President, I do not like the name of "Chi Lo" (Purple Cottage) very much. The former Government House is a statutory heritage and a historical fact. Its name of "former Government House" should be adopted. I support the motion. PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, it is an art to name a historical building and the characteristics of art lie in arousing different feelings and ideas in different time-spaces and from different people. In this sense, a new name for the Government House is like a work of art, which is difficult to be accepted or even appreciated by the public at large. That is why there has been a diversity rather than consensus of public opinion ever since the Government announced its decision to invite the public to suggest a new name for the Government House.

The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance (HKPA) does not think that it is the best way of establishing a new name for the Government House for the Legislative Council to urge the Government by way of a motion to accept its suggestion when there is still a diversity of opinion on the new name. Although motions moved by Legislative Council Members are not legally binding on the Government, the Council hopes that they will be implemented by the Government as far as possible. The problem is that the naming of the Government House is like a work of art the appeal or otherwise of which is largely a matter of opinion. If the Government accepts the Council's suggestion which turns out to be disapproved by the public, it will put both the Government and the Council in an awkward position.

If the Government House is to be formally named by the Legislative Council, will other important public buildings in the future also be named by the Council? If so, is this the most effective way of making use of the Council's limited number of meetings and resources?

As a matter of fact, we should be more concerned about how to let the public make full use of the Government House, how to make best use of the Government House to receive the official guests and how to turn the Government House into a tourist attraction.

Mrs Selina CHOW said that the naming did not have any political implications and she therefore urged the DAB and the HKPA not to be overly sensitive.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I wish to seek an elucidation.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU, are you willing to give way to Mrs CHOW.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Fine.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs CHOW, you may elucidate on the part of your speech which has been misunderstood.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): I have made it clear in my speech that it was newspapers that quoted Mr LEUNG Chun-ying as saying "the naming does not have any political implications". I did not the remark myself.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU, please continue.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, Mrs CHOW urged us not to be overly sensitive on the grounds of Mr LEUNG Chun-ying's remark which she quoted just now. As she quoted that remark in such a way, at became her ground for calling on us not to be sensitive about the naming exercise. That is the reason for my earlier remarks.

I wish to advise Mrs CHOW not to worry because the HKPA is always practical and realistic and we do not equate political issues with sensitive issues. Sometimes, political issues are sensitive but not all of them are sensitive. Therefore, we do not mix these two issues now, nor will we do so in the future.

Madam President, the HKPA is of the view that now the Government has set up a working group responsible for naming the Government House and the public has been enthusiastic in coming up with various suggestions, we should leave this matter to the public and the working group.

Madam President, I so submit.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think this matter was due to me and I am so sorry. In the Chief Executive's Question and Answer Session held in this Chamber on 6 May, I raised this impromptu question because I believed that renaming the Government House was something superfluous. I do not think that today's motion moved by Mr Howard YOUNG is appropriate because I am of the view that there is no need to rename the Government House now that the Chief Executive has refused to use it as his official residence.

It is obvious that some Members consider it necessary to have a new name for the Government House and renaming it in a big way. This is my greatest worry because the people of Hong Kong are very sensitive to and afraid of changes. If the Chief Executive decided to use the former Government House as his official residence and office, the Government House could be renamed, as a matter of course, the Chief Executive House. Although the incumbent Chief Executive has decided not to use it as his official residence, we do not know whether his successors will do likewise, or whether the Government House will never be used as the official residence for the Chief Executive in the future. What we are now supposed to do is to formally name it rather than designate the purpose it will serve. As far as its uses are concerned, it could be turned into a guest house in the future. I am aware that there are more than a thousand suggestions for a new name for the Government House on the Internet, some of them extremely sarcastic and I do not wish to quote them.

Everybody should know that my remarks made on the above-mentioned occasion were purely for fun. Even for those who concentrate their minds on finding a good name for the Government House, their efforts may not be appreciated because words have many homophonies and everybody knows about this. I hope this trivial matter will not be turned into a big event, rather, it should follow the course of "turning a big event into a minor one and a minor one into nothing". We had better put this matter behind us. But Members are now divided into two groups with one of them demanding the renaming ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, do not turn your face away from the President when you are speaking and I believe that you must know this very well.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I understand that I should address the President rather than Members. But I talked about other Members just now so I faced them ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, please face the President and do not turn your face away from the President as this is very disrespectful to the Chair.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I must address the President, but that does not mean I must face the President. I can also face other Members.

Under the circumstances, the renaming of the Government House is neither appropriate nor proper. In my opinion, as the Government House has not been designated to serve any specific purpose, its most appropriate name is "the former Government House", which has nothing to do with "the Governor of Hong Kong" other than indicating how it was used in the past. Moreover, as its name in English has not been changed, why must its name in Chinese be changed. Of course, its English name can also be changed by putting the word "former" before it.

Mrs Selina CHOW said earlier that some people had considered its current name an adjective because Mr TUNG Chee-hwa thought so and Mr LEUNG Chun-ying was also reported in press recently as holding the same view. To regard its current name as an adjective is something outrageous. In fact, everybody's name could be an adjective. For example, WONG Wang-fat means a person with a surname of "WONG" who is extremely rich or super rich. Of course, I am not very rich, nor am I a person with more brawn than brains. LEUNG Chun-ying means a person with a surname of LEUNG who revitalizes Britain or British culture. These are all adjectives. We should not regard names as adjectives as this is something outrageous. If we are to give a name to something, we must take into account the designated purpose it will serve. By so doing, we will come up with a name naturally. Otherwise, this historical relic should be preserved. If we do not want to preserve this historical relic, we should designate the purpose it will serve. I do not mind turning it into a museum of history of Hong Kong. If another person assumes the office of the Chief Executive in the future and wishes to move the museum to another place so that he can use the Government House as his official residence, it is perfectly all right for it to be renamed by then. Nevertheless, I do not think that it is appropriate to rename the Government House at the moment when the purpose it will serve has not been designated.

I think it is probably because the working group is handling two different tasks at the same time, namely, the construction of the Reunification Monument and the renaming of the Government House, that some Members consider it their responsibility to do something about it. But I hope that they will cast aside their mental burden and do something more meaningful for Hong Kong. I agree with the views expressed from a tourist's angle that the Government House will still be generally known as "the former Government House" or "former Big Army Head's House" no matter what new names it is given. How did the name of "Big Army Head's Garden" come about? It was because the Governor used to be the Commander-in-Chief in name of the British Garrison, who was nicknamed the "the Big Army Head ". As the "Big Army Head " was gone, the place was named "the Government House". I even saw a suggestion for "Governor PATTEN's House" on the Internet. I find it very strange that so many people miss Mr PATTEN. I do not mean that I miss Mr PATTEN too but we should respect historical facts. Now that the place has not been designated to serve any specific purpose, it is better to preserve its current name. But it must be formally named. The absence of a formal name is improper. It should not be called "Government House" but "Former Government House". I therefore support the motion. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank the 10 Honourable Members who have spoken on today's motion.

Madam President, when the Chief Executive attended a meeting of the Legislative Council on 6 May to answer Honourable Members' questions, he said that the "Former Government House" was not a formal name but only a name describing the place former governors used as their office and residence. After the establishment of the Government of the Special Administrative Region (SAR), the use of the place has been changed and it is therefore necessary to give the place a new name that is different from the "Former Government House". I agree with Prof NG Ching-fai that a proper name should be given.

At present, the Former Government House is an important place for the Chief Executive and the SAR Government to entertain guests and receive honoured guests, and the activities held there include official dinners, bilateral meetings, receptions and so on. The SAR Government has held more than 40 activities in the former Government House to entertain heads of states and important political figures.

Moreover, to give the public more chances to visit or use the former Government House, the SAR Government opens the dinning hall three days a month for charitable, non-profit-making or public bodies to organize activities for public interest. About 40 such activities have been held in the past two years.

Before the reunification, arrangement was made for opening the garden of the former Government House once a year but the SAR Government is opening it four times a year for public visit. As to the hope expressed by Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung that the Government will continue to open the former Government House for public visit, we are not only continuing this practice, we are even opening it for public visit more frequently. Since the establishment of the SAR Government, around 90 000 people have visited the former Government House.

The SAR Government notes that Honourable Members and the community have made numerous suggestions concerning the use of the former Government House, and the Government will carefully consider and study their views concerning the additional uses of the former Government House. But I must say that when we consider the suggestions concerning the additional uses of the former Government House, we must take into account the importance of the building as a place for the Chief Executive and the SAR Government to entertain guests and receive honoured guests as well as other relevant factors such as security and the resources required.

Last July, the Chief Executive set up a "Working Group on the Reunification Monument and Naming the Former Government House" comprised of professionals, academics, cultural and art workers. One of the functions of the Working Group is to suggest new names for the former Government House. From September to November last year, the Working Group openly collected new names suggested by the public. Mr Howard YOUNG asked earlier if a consultation has been made, and I am giving an affirmative answer. Besides, the Working Group has given the activity wide publicity by means of posters and leaflets, on the radio and in newspapers. The public has responded to the call enthusiastically and the Working Group has received almost 1 000 suggestions.

The Working Group has categorized the suggestions collected into four types: (1) names related to "azalea" or "bauhinia"; (2) names related to the "reunification"; (3) names that reflect the use of the building; and (4) names with implied meanings. After discussions and analyses, the Working Group suggested to the Chief Executive that "Purple Cottage" be used as the new Chinese name of the former Government House while its English name shall remain the "Government House".

In the past month or so, the community continues to talk about and express views on the new name of the former Government House. Accordingly, the Working Group indicated on 4 May that it welcomed the continued suggestion of other new names by the community. From 4 May to the end of May, the Working Group collected around 1 000 new suggestions. Evidently, the public has actively and enthusiastically responded to the issue of naming the former Government House but they have divergent views on the new name to be adopted.

As I have said, the SAR Government wants a new name for the former Government House building because its uses have changed after the establishment of the SAR and it is necessary for it to be given a new name that is different from the "former Government House". I must stress that this does not involve any intention to amend or evade history. Moreover, the new name will be used for official purposes. As Mr Howard YOUNG has said, the general public may not have to be bound by the official naming when they explain to tourists how they should call the former Government House.

The Working Group has categorized the new suggestions collected recently and uploaded them onto the Internet for the public's reference and expression of views. The Working Group will consider the new suggestions and the public's views. If the public have other suggestions, they can continue to make their suggestions via the Internet and the Working Group will report to the Chief Executive after it has examined all the suggestions. The SAR Government will make public the new name of the former Government House at an appropriate time.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG, you may now reply and you have up to four minutes 25 seconds.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I wish to thank those nine Members who have spoken on this motion. Although Members were quite active in speaking, the number of names that they have come up with is less in proportion than that received by the Government which said that it had received more than a thousand suggestions and 700 to 800 of them were different names. However, only two names were suggested after nine Members had spoken in the debate, proving that it is very difficult to come up with a name.

I would like to respond to Mr Andrew WONG's earlier speech in which he suggested giving up if no suggestions for a new name were considered satisfactory. This is the intention of my motion. As a matter of fact, my purpose of moving this motion is in response to the working group's decision to continue to solicit views. Mr Ambrose LAU asked whether an embarrassing situation would arise as the Government had set up a working group responsible for this matter. I wish to point out that this has been the legislature's way of doing things. Whenever the Government holds public consultation during a specified period, the legislature will normally hold a debate before the consultation ends, in order to offer channels for Members to express their views. For example, we will have a debate on a motion to be moved next week by Mr CHAN Kwok-keung on civil service reform the consultation period of which will have yet to end by them. Once the consultation ends, there will be no need for a debate. Therefore, I cannot see any embarrassment unless he has some personal reasons.

Mr Andrew WONG has also correctly pointed out that the Government has its own purpose for renaming the Government House. However, we really cannot see what clear and specific purpose that the Government House serves. It was sometimes used to entertain overseas guests, or as a venue for holding honours-preventation ceremonies. Sometimes, it was open for public visit. The purpose it serves is not clearly spelt out. Today's motion debate does not mean that the Government House will never be renamed in the future. I fully agree with Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung's view that we can rename it the Chief Executive House if the future Chief Executive decides to use it as his official residence. However, the current Chief Executive is doing otherwise.

Madam President, six months after deciding to invite the public to put forward suggestions for a new name, the Government recently announced that the Government House would be renamed "Purple Cottage" as recommended by the working group after consideration. The new name has attracted a lot of comments. Although no one has suggested a new name which is considered more acceptable than "former Government House", many people have criticized the adoption of "Purple Cottage". Nevertheless, to be fair, "紫"(purple) is more characteristic of Hong Kong than black, white, yellow, red and other colours, but the word "廬"(cottage) seems to belittle the former Government House which is built like a palace in the territory. As the word "廬" means "a cottage" in English, does it not belittle the former Government House? I walked past the Hong Kong Bank Headquarters the other day and saw many tourists taking pictures of the current Court of Final Appeal Building, but in front of it, there was a signpost reading "Former French Mission Building". This is true. You can go there and have a look and you will see a signpost reading "Former French Mission Building", which is a sign of respect for history.

Today's motion is not binding. As the consultation is still on-going, we wish to express our views to the Government. I am of the view that before we come up with a new name which is considered more acceptable, we better keep the present one rather than changing it for the sake of changing. After all, the name of "former Government House" has been used in the Government's invitation cards for functions held at the Government House over the past year.

Madam President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Howard YOUNG be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

Mr Howard YOUNG rose to claim a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Before I declare that voting shall stop, Members may wish to check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.

Functional Constituencies:

Mr Kenneth TING, Mr James TIEN, Mr Edward HO, Mr Michael HO, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Mr Bernard CHAN, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr Howard YOUNG and Mrs Miriam LAU voted for the motion.

Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mr HUI Cheung-ching, Mr CHAN Kwok-keung, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr Timothy FOK, Mr FUNG Chi-kin and Dr TANG Siu-tong voted against the motion.

Geographical Constituencies and Election Committee:

Miss Cyd HO, Mr Andrew WONG, Dr YEUNG Sum, Miss Emily LAU and Mr HO Sai-chu voted for the motion.

Mr Gary CHENG, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr David CHU, Prof NG Ching-fai, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr Ambrose LAU and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted against the motion.

THE PRESIDENT, Mrs Rita FAN, did not cast any vote.

THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 18 were present, 11 were in favour of the motion and seven against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 15 were present, five were in favour of the motion and nine against it. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she therefore declared that the motion was negatived. NEXT MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 9 June 1999.

Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes to Nine o'clock.

Annex I

WRITTEN ANSWER Written answer by the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands to Prof NG Ching-fai's supplementary question to Question 3

All except the very smallest oil spills have the potential for adverse impact on the marine environment. The most important thing is to take action as quickly as possible to contain and clear up the oil. Such action is taken immediately by the Marine Department.

When a spill occurs, the Environmental Protection Department and the Agriculture and Fisheries Department will make an assessment of the potential impact on sensitive areas such as beaches, water intakes, fish culture zones, sensitive ecological areas such as the RAMSAR site and marine parks/reserves, or on important ecological species such as the Chinese White Dolphins. They will liaise closely with the Marine Department to advise on the threat the spilt oil may pose to the marine ecology or other resources, and to agree on appropriate measures to be taken to safeguard such resources.

Annex II

WRITTEN ANSWER Translation of written answer by the Secretary for Information Technology and Broadcasting to Dr TANG Siu-tong's supplementary question to Question 4

In the process of designing its computer system, the Government will draw up the security design for the system according to the different security requirements. Computer security devices include in general the installation of firewall, audit trail and devices for authentication and so on. Since the cost of installing such security devices has been included in the item of total expenditure relating to computer system instead of being counted as a separate entry, we do not have the figure on how much the Government has spent on computer security devices over the past three years. Similarly, as we have not made a separate estimation on the amount of money the Government will spend on computer security devices in the coming three years, we apologize for not being able to provide the relevant information.

Annex III

WRITTEN ANSWER

Written answer by the Secretary for the Treasury to Mrs Selina CHOW's supplementary question to Question 6

The Commissioner of Customs and Excise advises that in 1998-99, a total of 404 persons involved in the use of illicit fuel were prosecuted.

Annex IV

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 11) BILL 1999

COMMITTEE STAGE

Amendment to be moved by the Secretary for Trade and Industry

Clause	Amendment Proposed
Schedule 6, section 4	By deleting "(1) is amended by repealing "立法局"" and substituting "is amended by repealing "立法局" where it twice appears".

Annex V

ADAPTATION OF LAWS (NO. 10) BILL 1998

COMMITTEE STAGE

Amendment to be moved by the Secretary for Financial Services

Clause	Amendment Proposed
Schedule 2, sections 3(a)(i) and (b) and 4	By deleting "in Council".

Annex VI

TAX RESERVE CERTIFICATES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1999

COMMITTEE STAGE

Amendment to be moved by the Secretary for the Treasury

Clause	Amendment Proposed
3	In the proposed section 3(1AA), by deleting "he" and substituting "the Secretary for the Treasury".