LC Paper No. CB(3) 690/98-99

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

MINUTES
No. 16
Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday 18 November 1998 at 2:30 pm

Members present:

President
The Hon Mrs Rita FAN, GBS, JP
The Hon Kenneth TING Woo-shou, JP
The Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, JP
The Hon David CHU Yu-lin
The Hon HO Sai-chu, JP
The Hon Cyd HO Sau-lan
The Hon Edward HO Sing-tin, JP
The Hon Albert HO Chun-yan
The Hon Michael HO Mun-ka
Dr the Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, JP
The Hon LEE Wing-tat
The Hon LEE Cheuk-yan
The Hon Martin LEE Chu-ming, SC, JP
The Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, JP
The Hon LEE Kai-ming, JP
The Hon Fred LI Wah-ming
Dr the Hon LUI Ming-wah, JP
The Hon NG Leung-sing
Prof the Hon NG Ching-fai
The Hon Margaret NG
The Hon Mrs Selina CHOW LIANG Shuk-yee, JP
The Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP
The Hon MA Fung-kwok
The Hon James TO Kun-sun
The Hon CHEUNG Man-kwong
The Hon Ambrose CHEUNG Wing-sum, JP
The Hon HUI Cheung-ching
The Hon Christine LOH
The Hon CHAN Kwok-keung
The Hon CHAN Yuen-han
The Hon Bernard CHAN
The Hon CHAN Wing-chan
The Hon CHAN Kam-lam
Dr the Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP
The Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, JP
The Hon LEUNG Yiu-chung
The Hon Gary CHENG Kai-nam
The Hon SIN Chung-kai
The Hon Andrew WONG Wang-fat, JP
Dr the Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
The Hon WONG Yung-kan
The Hon Jasper TSANG Yok-sing, JP
The Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
Dr the Hon YEUNG Sum
The Hon YEUNG Yiu-chung
The Hon LAU Chin-shek, JP
The Hon LAU Kong-wah
The Hon LAU Wong-fat, GBS, JP
The Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, JP
The Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
The Hon Emily LAU Wai-hing, JP
The Hon CHOY So-yuk
The Hon Andrew CHENG Kar-foo
The Hon SZETO Wah
The Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting, JP
The Hon LAW Chi-kwong, JP
The Hon TAM Yiu-chung, JP
The Hon FUNG Chi-kin
Dr the Hon TANG Siu-tong, JP

Member absent:

Dr the Hon David LI Kwok-po, JP

Public officers attending:

The Honourable Donald TSANG Yam-kuen, JP

The Financial Secretary

The Honourable Elsie LEUNG Oi-sie, JP

The Secretary for Justice

Mr Dominic WONG Shing-wah, JP

Secretary for Housing

Mr Rafael HUI Si-yan, GBS, JP

Secretary for Financial Services

Mr Joseph WONG Wing-ping, GBS, JP

Secretary for Education and Manpower

Mr KWONG Ki-chi, GBS, JP

Secretary for Information Technology and Broadcasting

Miss Denise YUE Chung-yee, JP

Secretary for the Treasury

Mr David LAN Hong-tsung, JP

Secretary for Home Affairs

Mrs Regina IP LAU Suk-yee, JP

Secretary for Security

Mr TAM Wing-pong, JP

Secretary for Trade and Industry

Mr Patrick LAU Lai-chiu, JP

Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands

Clerks in attendance:

Mr Ricky FUNG Choi-cheung, JP

Secretary General

Mr LAW Kam-sang, JP

Deputy Secretary General

Mrs Justina LAM CHENG Bo-ling

Assistant Secretary General (2)

Mr Ray CHAN Yum-mou

Assistant Secretary General (3)

Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subsidiary Legislation	L.N. No.
1. Quarantine and Prevention of Disease Ordinance (Amendment of First Schedule) Order 1998	346/98
2. Prevention of the Spread of Infectious Diseases Regulations (Amendment of Form) Order 1998	347/98
3. Dangerous Drugs Ordinance (Amendment of First Schedule) Order 1998	348/98
4. Food Business (Regional Council) (Amendment) (No.2) Bylaw 1998	349/98
5. Frozen Confections (Regional Council) (Amendment) Bylaw 1998	350/98
6. Milk (Regional Council) (Amendment) Bylaw 1998	351/98
7. Fisheries Protection (Amendment) Ordinance 1998 (36 of 1998) (Commencement) Notice 1998	352/98

Sessional Papers

No.57	-	Accounts of the Government for the year ended 31 March 1998
No.58	-	Environment and Conservation Fund Trustee Report 1997-98
No.59	-	Report of the Director of Audit on the Accounts of the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region for the year ended 31 March 1998
No.60	-	Report No. 30 of the Director of Audit on the results of value for money audits - June 1998
No.61	-	Report No. 31 of the Director of Audit on the results of value for money audits - October 1998

Report

Report of the Bills Committee on Securities (Amendment) Bill 1998

Questions

1. Hon NG Leung-sing asked Question 1.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Five Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

2. Hon Margaret NG asked Question 2.

The Secretary for Justice replied.

Seven Members asked supplementaries. The Secretary for Justice and the Secretary for Security replied.

3. Hon Howard YOUNG asked Question 3.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Four Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

4. Hon LEE Cheuk-yan asked Question 4.

The Secretary for Home Affairs replied.

Six Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Home Affairs replied.

5. Hon SIN Chung-kai asked Question 5.

The Secretary for Information Technology and Broadcasting replied.

Six Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Information Technology and Broadcasting replied.

6. Hon LEE Wing-tat asked Question 6.

The Secretary for Housing replied.

Seven Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Housing replied.

Written replies to Questions 7 to 20 were tabled for Members' information.

Bills

First Reading

Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) (Amendment) Bill 1998
Adaptation of Laws (No.7) Bill 1998
Adaptation of Laws (No.8) Bill 1998

The Bills were read the first time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading

Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) (Amendment) Bill 1998

The Secretary for Trade and Industry moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Adaptation of Laws (No.7) Bill 1998
Adaptation of Laws (No.8) Bill 1998

The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council on each of the above two Bills.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debates on the above Bills were adjourned and the Bills were referred to the House Committee.

Resumption of Second Reading debate

Securities (Amendment) Bill 1998

The debate on the Second Reading which had been moved on 29 July 1998 resumed.

Hon Ronald ARCULLI addressed the Council on the Report of the Bills Committee on Securities (Amendment) Bill 1998.

Seven Members spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Financial Services replied.

Question on the Second Reading put and agreed to.
Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

Committee Stage

The Council went into Committee and considered the Securities (Amendment) Bill 1998.

Question that clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 stand part of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.

Question that clause 5 stand part of the Bill proposed.

The Secretary for Financial Services moved an amendment to clause 5 and addressed the Committee.

Question on the amendment put and agreed to.

Hon Albert HO moved further amendments to clause 5 and addressed the Committee.

Six Members and the Secretary for Financial Services spoke on the amendments.

In response to a point of order raised by Hon LEE Wing-tat while the Secretary for Financial Services was speaking on the amendments, the Chairman said that neither Members nor public officers should comment on the President's rulings in Council. She would, however, allow the Secretary to state the Administration's position on Hon Albert HO's amendments.

Hon Albert HO replied.

Question on the amendments put.

Hon Albert HO claimed a division. The Chairman then ordered the Committee to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The Chairman announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, eight were in favour of the amendments and 20 against them; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 29 were present, 16 were in favour of the amendments and 12 against them. (Voting record in Appendix I.) Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the amendments were negatived.

Question that clause 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.

The President ordered the Council to resume and granted leave for Hon Albert HO to move a motion under Rule 91 of the Rules of Procedure that Rule 58(5) of the Rules of Procedure be suspended to enable the Committee of the whole Council to consider the proposed new clause 5A ahead of clause 7 of the Bill.

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

The Council went into Committee again.

New clause 5A read the first time.

Hon Albert HO moved the Second Reading of new clause 5A and addressed the Committee.

Question on the Second Reading of new clause 5A proposed.

One Member and the Secretary for Financial Services spoke on the motion.

Hon Albert HO replied.

Question on the Second Reading of the new clause 5A put.

Hon Albert HO claimed a division. The Chairman then ordered the Committee to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The Chairman announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 25 were present, six were in favour of the motion and 19 against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 29 were present, 16 were in favour of the motion and 12 against it. (Voting record in Appendix II.) Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the motion was negatived.

Question that clause 7 stand part of the Bill proposed.

The Chairman stated that Hon Albert HO might not move his amendment to clause 7 as it was inconsistent with the decision already taken.

Question that clause 7 stand part of the Bill put and agreed to.

New clause 6A read the first time.

The Secretary for Financial Services moved the Second Reading of new clause 6A and addressed the Committee.

Question on the Second Reading of new clause 6A proposed.

Two Members spoke on the motion.

Question on the Second Reading of new clause 6A put and agreed to.

New clause 6A read the second time.

The Secretary for Financial Services moved the addition of new clause 6A to the Bill.

Question on the addition proposed, put and agreed to.

The Council then resumed.

Third Reading

The Secretary for Financial Services reported that

the Securities (Amendment) Bill 1998

had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved that the Bill be read the third time and do pass.

Question on the Third Reading proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.

Motions

Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance

The Secretary for Housing moved the resolution in Appendix III and addressed the Council:

Question on the resolution proposed.

Two Members spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Housing replied.

Question on the resolution put and agreed to.

Members' Motions

Amending legislation to regulate wage reductions

Hon CHAN Wing-chan moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That, in view of the successive cases of private companies reducing their employees' wages and benefits on the grounds of cutting costs, this Council urges the Government to:

1. expeditiously amend the Employment Ordinance, with a view to ensuring that employees will be given sufficient time to consider the changes in the conditions of employment initiated by employers, and stipulating that employers must give an undertaking to revert their employees' wages and benefits to the original levels after the companies have tided over the period of difficulties; and in circumstances where employees have to be laid off or made redundant, their severance payments and long service payments should be calculated on the basis of their original wages before reduction; and
   
   
2. amend the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance to stipulate that ex gratia payments should be calculated on the basis of the employees' existing wages or their wages before reduction, whichever is higher.
   
   

At 7:10 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Question on Hon CHAN Wing-chan's motion proposed. The President's Deputy stated that Hon Andrew CHENG had given notice to move an amendment to the motion. In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, the motion and the proposed amendment would be debated together in a joint debate.

Hon Andrew CHENG moved the following amendment to Hon CHAN Wing-chan's motion and addressed the Council:

To delete "private companies" and substitute with "wage reduction in the past year, the failure of existing labour legislation to provide reasonable protection for employees whose wages have been reduced, and the continuing trend of employers"; to delete "expeditiously" and substitute with "immediately"; to delete ", with a view to ensuring that employees will be given sufficient time to consider the" and substitute with "to provide that employers must give at least 14 days' written notice to their employees when initiating"; to delete "initiated by employers" and substitute with "thus allowing them sufficient time to consider the wage reduction proposals,"; to delete "stipulating" and substitute with "stipulate"; to delete "give an undertaking to revert their employees'" and substitute with "increase the"; to add "of the employees whose wages have been reduced" after "wages and benefits"; to add "or higher" after "to the original"; to delete "companies" and substitute with "companies' financial conditions"; to delete "tided over the period of difficulties" and substitute with "stabilized"; to delete "in circumstances where" and substitute with "to provide that if"; to delete "have to be" after "employees" and substitute with "whose wages have been reduced are"; to add "they can choose to have" after "laid off or made redundant,"; to delete "should be" from "long service payments should be calculated"; to delete "original" from "on the basis of their original wages"; to add "the first" after "wages before"; to add "effected during a certain period of time prior to being laid off, so that the rights and benefits of employees will not be affected by wage reductions" after "reduction"; to delete "to stipulate" from "amend the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance to stipulate" and substitute with ", with a view to ensuring"; and to delete "should be calculated on the basis of the employees' existing wages or their wages before reduction, whichever is higher" and substitute with "to employees under the Ordinance will not be affected by wage reductions".

Question on Hon Andrew CHENG's amendment to Hon CHAN Wing-chan's motion proposed.

Three Members spoke on the motion and the amendment.

At 7:47 pm, the President resumed the chair.

Another nine Members spoke on the motion and the amendment.

At 8:45 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Two further Members spoke on the motion and the amendment.

Hon CHAN Wing-chan spoke on the amendment.

The Secretary for Education and Manpower spoke on the motion and the amendment.

At 9:12 pm, the President resumed the chair.

Question on Hon Andrew CHENG's amendment to Hon CHAN Wing-chan's motion put.

Hon Andrew CHENG claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, four were in favour of the amendment, 19 against it and three abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 29 were present, 14 were in favour of the amendment and 14 against it. (Voting record in Appendix IV.) Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the amendment was negatived.

Hon CHAN Wing-chan replied.

Question on Hon CHAN Wing-chan's original motion put.

Hon CHAN Wing-chan claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, eight were in favour of the original motion, 12 against it and six abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 28 were present, 20 were in favour of the original motion, one against it and six abstained. (Voting record in Appendix V.) Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the original motion was negatived.

Resumption of land sales

Hon LEE Wing-tat moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council urges the Government to resume land sales in April 1999, so as to maintain the supply of land and housing and to stabilize Government revenue.

Question on Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion proposed. The President stated that Hon Ronald ARCULLI and Hon LAU Kong-wah had separately given notice to move amendments to the motion. In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, the motion and the two proposed amendments would be debated together in a joint debate.

Hon Ronald ARCULLI and Hon LAU Kong-wah spoke on the motion and their proposed amendments respectively.

11 Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Hon LEE Wing-tat spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Hon Ronald ARCULLI moved the following amendment to Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion:

To add ", when conducting its review in early 1999 on whether" after "That this Council urges the Government"; to delete "so as to maintain the supply of land and housing and to stabilize Government revenue" and substitute with "to take into consideration all relevant factors, including the importance of a stable property market, the restoration of public confidence, the level of interest rates, the supply of land, the demand for housing, and external factors".

Question on Hon Ronald ARCULLI's amendment to Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion proposed and put.

Hon Ronald ARCULLI claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 27 were present, 16 were in favour of the amendment and 11 against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 29 were present, five were in favour of the amendment, 22 against it and one abstained. (Voting record in Appendix VI.) Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the amendment was negatived.

Hon LAU Kong-wah moved the following amendment to Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion:

To add "and to review the current mode of land sales with a view to introducing a flexible mechanism whereby the future provision of land can be adjusted according to the demand and supply in the market," after "That this Council urges the Government to resume land sales in April 1999"; to delete "maintain the supply of" and substitute with "meet the needs for"; and to add "in doing so," after "land and housing and".

Question on Hon LAU Kong-wah's amendment to Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion proposed and put.

Hon LEE Wing-tat claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Rule 47(1) of the Rules of Procedure.

The President announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 17 were in favour of the amendment, 10 against it and one abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections and by the Election Committee, 29 were present, 24 were in favour of the amendment, two against it and two abstained. (Voting record in Appendix VII.) Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, she declared that the amendment was agreed.

Hon LEE Wing-tat replied.

Question on Hon LEE Wing-tat's motion as amended by Hon LAU Kong-wah put and agreed to.

Next Meeting

The President declared that the next meeting of the Council would be held on 25 November 1998 at 2:30 pm.

The Council was adjourned at 11:20 pm.


(Mrs Rita FAN)
President

Council Chamber
Hong Kong