Panel on Manpower(Minutes) 24 June 99

Legislative Council

LC Paper No. CB(2) 2819/98-99
(These minutes have been seen by the Administration)

Ref : CB2/PL/MP/1

LegCo Panel on Manpower

Minutes of meeting held on Thursday, 24 June 1999 at 2:30 pm in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building

Members present:

Hon LEE Kai-ming, JP (Chairman)
Hon LAU Chin-shek, JP (Deputy Chairman)
Hon Kenneth TING Woo-shou, JP
Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, JP
Hon HO Sai-chu, JP
Hon Michael HO Mun-ka
Hon LEE Cheuk-yan
Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP
Hon CHAN Kwok-keung
Hon CHAN Yuen-han
Hon CHAN Wing-chan
Hon CHAN Kam-lam
Hon LEUNG Yiu-chung
Hon SIN Chung-kai
Hon Andrew CHENG Kar-foo
Hon SZETO Wah

Members absent:

Hon David CHU Yu-lin
Dr Hon LUI Ming-wah, JP
Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP

Public Officers attending:

Item IV
Mr Philip K F CHOK, JP: Deputy Secretary for Education and Manpower
Miss Erica NG: Principal Assistant Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Matthew K C CHEUNG, JP: Commissioner for Labour
Mr S S KWONG: Executive Director
Employees Retraining Board
Professor LEE Ngok: Executive Director
Vocational Training Council
Dr L H LEES: Deputy Executive Director
Vocational Training Council
Item V
Mr Joseph W P WONG, JP: Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Philip K F CHOK, JP: Deputy Secretary for Education and Manpower
Miss Erica NG: Principal Assistant Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Matthew K C CHEUNG, JP: Commissioner for Labour
Mr S S KWONG: Executive Director
Employees Retraining Board
Professor LEE Ngok: Executive Director
Vocational Training Council
Dr Federick MAK: Deputy Executive Director
Vocational Training Council
Item VI
Mr Joseph W P WONG, JP: Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Philip K F CHOK, JP: Deputy Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Herman CHO: Principal Assistant Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Matthew K C CHEUNG, JP: Commissioner for Labour
Mr TSANG Kin-woo, JP: Assistant Commissioner for Labour
(Labour Relations)
Mr CHOW Tung-shan: Assistant Commissioner for Labour
(Employment Services)

Clerk in attendance:

Mrs Sharon TONG: Chief Assistant Secretary (2)1

Staff in attendance:

Mr Raymond LAM: Senior Assistant Secretary (2) 5

I. Matters arising (LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(01))

Members noted the list of follow-up actions required of the Administration.

II. Draft Report of the Panel on Manpower for submission to the Legislative Council
(LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(02))

2. Members endorsed the draft report of the Panel for submission to the Legislative Council.

III. Date of next meeting and items for discussion (LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(03))

3. Members agreed to discuss the following items at the next meeting on 22 July 1999 -(a) Follow-up on minimum wage system;(b) Follow-up on right of workers to strike or take industrial actions;(c) Follow-up on elderly employment;(d) Follow-up on regulation of work arrangements in times of the black rainstorm warning and typhoon;(e) Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Medical Examinations) Regulation; and(f) Occupational health of employees using computers at work.On item (d), which was proposed by Mr Andrew CHENG, Commissioner for Labour (C for L) said that the issue had already been discussed at the Panel meeting on 28 July 1998. As the issue was a complicated one and some industries would have a need to maintain essential service in times of the black rainstorm warning and typhoon, it was considered that statutory regulation of work arrangements during such times would not be practicable. Mr Andrew CHENG considered that the feasibility of enacting legislation to regulate work arrangements and wage payment in times of the black rainstorm warning and typhoon should be discussed. The Chairman requested the Administration to provide a sample of work and pay arrangements between employers and employees in respect of the subject matter.(Post-meeting note : Subsequent to the meeting, discussion of item (d) was deferred at the request of Mr Andrew CHENG. At the request of the Administration, item (e) was withdrawn and an item on "Review of the driving duties of foreign domestic helpers" was added to the list of items for discussion at the next meeting on 22 July 1999.)

IV. Progress of measures to create jobs and tackle unemployment
(LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(04))

4. At the invitation of the Chairman, Deputy Secretary for Education and Manpower (DSEM) highlighted the progress of measures to create jobs and tackle unemployment as follows -(a) The commencement of major infrastructural projects, which would reach its peak by the end of 1999 or early 2000, would create over 14 000 new job opportunities in the coming six months. In May 1999, 30 works contracts/consultancy agreements worth a total of $1.9 billion had commenced and some 2 000 job vacancies had been created.(b) As regards employment and job matching service, the Labour Department (LD) had secured 11 000 job vacancies. The Interactive Employment Services on the Internet launched in March 1999 had been well received by job-seekers and employers. In May 1999, a total of 148 500 visitors had visited the web site, averaging about 4 790 visitors per day.(c) To meet the needs of young school leavers, the Vocational Training Council (VTC) would, from September 1999 onwards, offer a new full-time Foundation Diploma Course to Secondary 5 school leavers who achieved three passes in the Hong Kong Certificate of Education (HKCEE) examination. The course curriculum would focus on upgrading the generic skills, especially the communication skills and information technology skills, in addition to job-specific skills. A total of 2 760 places would be provided jointly by the Diploma Course and an equivalent part-time evening Certificate Course.(d) VTC would offer additional two-year full time and three-year part-time certificate courses in vocational studies as from September 1999 for 1 400 Secondary 3 leavers.(e) The Construction Industry Training Authority (CITA) planned to increase the training capacity of its full-time short courses by 1 500 places in the year 1999-2000.(f) The special nine-month Certificate of Skills Training (Service Industries) Course (CST(SI)) offered jointly by the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) and VTC would be completed by 30 June 1999. Efforts were being made by ERB, VTC and LD to help graduates in securing employment. A "Recruitment Forum", jointly organized by ERB and LD, would be held on 29 June 1999 and a "Job Bazaar", jointly organized by ERB and VTC, would be held exclusively for graduates of the Course in mid-July.(g) From 6 May to 10 June, 392 applications were approved under the Special Finance Scheme for Small and Medium Enterprises. The amounts of guarantee approved and the loans involved were about $241 million and $369 million respectively, representing an increase of 69% over the previous month.

5. In response to Mr CHAN Wing-chan, C for L explained that the 3 500 successful placements by LD referred to in paragraph 3(b) of the Administration's paper were inclusive of 732 successful placements made under the Job Matching Programme.

Certificate of Skills Training (Service Industries) Course6. As regards the nine-month CST(SI), Mr James TIEN commented that the participation of employers and trade associations in the development of training courses would help ensure that the course contents would meet the needs of employers. He suggested VTC to follow-up on whether the graduates were employed in industries relevant to the course. Executive Director of VTC (ED/VTC) said that employers and trade associations, including those in the retail and service industries, had participated in the development of the training courses. He was confident that the graduates would be well accepted by employers. He added that VTC would follow-up the employment of its graduates.

Seafarer training courses7. Mr CHAN Kam-lam enquired about the employment rate of the graduates from seafarer training courses organized by VTC. ED/VTC said that while he had no detailed information on hand, he recalled that the employment rate of the graduates was more than 50%, and a large proportion of them were involved in river-trade seafaring work. He undertook to provide detailed information after the meeting. He added that only one seafarer course had been organized in the current year and VTC was assessing the need to organize further seafarer training courses. Executive Director of ERB (ED/ERB) added that a training course would be considered as satisfactory if the employment rate of its graduates was 70% or more. More time was therefore needed to assess the need to organize further seafarer courses. Noting that the income of Hong Kong seafarers were higher than those of a number of countries, Mr CHAN Kam-lam requested the Administration to provide a comparison of the income of seafarers in Hong Kong and those in overseas countries, such as the Philippines, and Sri Lanka.

Adm
Adm

V. Youth Pre-employment Training Programme
(LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(05))

8. Secretary for Education and Manpower (SEM) informed members that the highest unemployment rate was found with the youth in the previous year. Statistics indicated that the unemployment rate for persons aged 15 to 19 had increased from 10.6% in the first quarter of 1997 to 23% in the first quarter of 1999. With the conclusion of the current school term in a few months' time, another 30 000 Secondary 3 or 5 students would be leaving schools to join the labour market. To address the problem, a Youth Pre-employment Training Programme (the Programme) was proposed. The Programme, which had just been discussed and approved by the Task Force on Employment in the same morning, would comprise the following four modules, under which more than 60 courses would be offered :(a) Leadership, self-discipline and team building training The disciplined services, the Civil Aid Service and the Auxiliary Medical Service had confirmed their willingness to participate in the module, which would provide training in footdrills, leadership and confidence, orienteering, team building, organizing skills and personality development.(b) Job search skills and interpersonal skills The module would focus on the development of problem solving skills, communication skills and interviewing techniques.(c) Computer application ERB would provide, through its training bodies, training on basic computer knowledge and usage. Participants who developed a keen interest in information technology could progress to more advanced training courses provided under the job specific skills module.(d) Job specific skills A wide variety of job specific skills courses would be provided mainly through VTC and ERB. Where possible, on-the-job training would be arranged with relevant companies. In addition, CITA would be prepared to allocate priority to trainees wishing to take its courses.SEM said that the Programme would also incorporate the extra-mural courses an computer application offered by local universities. While there would not be any training allowance for the trainees, the suggestion on provision of travelling allowance to trainees when attending practical training with participating employers was being considered. The Administration hoped to work out the details in July, launch publicity and begin registration in August so that the Programme could commence in September. He added that over 25 training bodies and voluntary agencies, and more than 10 government departments had offered to participate in the Programme. The Administration would seek the participation of more organizations, especially those in the industrial or business sectors.

9. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan expressed support for the Programme and enquired whether the Administration would consider establishing a body similar to ERB to operate the Programme on an on-going basis and promote youth training and counselling. He expressed concern about whether the financial resources of ERB would be affected by the Programme. SEM said that a comphensive review on the Programme would be conducted after its completion before deciding on the way forward. In the longer term, it might be appropriate to have some elements of the courses integrated into the curriculum of secondary schools. The Education and Manpower Bureau (EMB) would be mainly responsible for the planning and policy aspects of the Programme, while LD would be responsible for the implementation and co-ordination work. As separate financial resources would be sought for the Programme, the resource allocation to ERB would not be affected.

10. On the question of whether implementation of the Programme would lead to a reduction in manpower resource for other areas responsible by LD, C for L said that apart from the recruitment of some temporary staff, the required manpower would be redeployed from within LD.

11. Mr CHAN Wing-chan expressed support for the Programme. He enquired whether the 12 000 trainees could attend all the four modules within a six-month period. SEM responded that each trainee may enrol in any number of module but in each of the four module, he may attend only one course. The duration of a course was usually one to a few weeks. There would be sufficient time for a participant to complete all the four modules within the six-month period.

12. Mr Andrew CHENG commented that the courses stated in paragraph 6(a), (b), (c) of the Administration's paper were very short and questioned their usefulness. He said that the duration of the courses should be extended and more job specific skills courses should be offered. He enquired about the number of places that would be provided under job specific skills training and the amount of financial resources that would be allocated for the Programme. SEM responded that the details of the Programme would not be finalized until the end of July. It was expected that a few thousand places would be provided under job specific skills training. The Administration was seeking financial resources of at least $10 million for the Programme.

13. Mr James TIEN opined that secondary school leavers should be better equipped for jobs through education than training. He hoped that the required resource would not be sought through a reduction in the existing resource allocation for education.

14. Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung commented that instead of launching the Programme that would only last for six months, the Administration should develop a long term strategy for youth training. He suggested that the Administration address the matter from a retraining perspective. SEM said that youth training was an issue of concern to the Administration. Although ERB would play an important role in the Programme, pre-employment training was different from retraining as it was aimed at assisting secondary school leavers to find their first jobs. ED/ERB added that the training bodies under ERB would try their best to offer the training courses under existing resources. At present, about seven to eight courses organized by ERB were particularly suitable for the youth. As regards training in computer application, the Programme would make use of the extra-mural courses organized by local universities. Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung opined that the trainees might need retraining when they changed their jobs in the future. ED/ERB said that ERB was reviewing the entry requirements in respect of age and education level for enrollment in its courses.

15. Mr SZETO Wah asked whether the Education Department (ED) and secondary schools were aware of the Programme. He considered that it was already too late to inform secondary school graduates as they had already left school. He urged the Administration to finalize the detailed arrangements as soon as possible and disseminate the information through the Careers Masters and Mistresses of schools. SEM said that EMB had discussed the Programme with many departments, including ED. DSEM added that ED would introduce the Programme to students through the Careers Masters and Mistresses of schools and when the schools distributed the HKCEE results to students.

16. While expressing support for the Programme, Miss CHAN Yuen-han expressed concern that the Administration might be reluctant to launch publicity for the Programme in view of the limited number of places available. She considered that publicity should be launched for the Programme and hoped that the upper limit of 12 000 places would be increased. In response, SEM said that the Administration planned to launch publicity for the Programme through schools, the television and radio channels, LD and participating agencies. After preliminary discussions with training bodies and government departments, it was estimated that about 12 000 training places could be provided under the Programme. The number of places was not an upper limit and the Administration hoped to increase the number with the participation of more agencies in the Programme.

VI. Survey on age discrimination in relation to employment
(LC Paper No. CB(2) 2355/98-99(06))

17. Principal Assistant Secretary for Education and Manpower (PAS(EM)) presented the findings of the survey on age discrimination in recruitment. He said that the Administration agreed with the public opinion that a step-by-step approach should be adopted to address age discrimination in recruitment. It was more appropriate to strengthen public education and publicity against age discrimination in recruitment. The Administration would monitor the situation closely and in the event that public education was found to be ineffective, the legislative alternative would be considered.

18. Mr LAU Chin-shek said that job-seekers aged over 30 were finding it difficult to find a job. In the last eighteen months, age discrimination in recruitment had worsened. Legislation against age discrimination should be enacted as soon as possible. He enquired about the Administration's timetable for enactment of legislation against age discrimination.

19. PAS(EM) said that the Administration considered that a step-by-step approach should be taken in addressing age discrimination. Legislation was not the only means to address age discrimination. More time should be allowed for the enhanced public education and publicity programme to make an impact on public attitude. Mr LAU opined that previous measures against age discrimination were not effective. The enactment of legislation and strengthening of public education were not mutually exclusive and could be pursued at the same time. SEM said that the survey findings indicated that publicity had been inadequate in the past. While the Administration would not rule out the possibility of introducing legislation, it had to consider whether the community had a consensus view on the issue. He referred to paragraph 11 of the Administration's paper and pointed out that although 57% of the respondents considered legislative means to be effective, 25% thought that it was not effective. Referring to paragraphs 9 and 10 of the paper, he said that 46% of the respondents who were aware of existing measures failed to provide any suggestions and only 7% suggested introducing legislative measures. When asked about alternative measures to tackle age discrimination in recruitment, 45% of the respondents were unable to make any suggestion, 18% of them supported the introduction of legislative measures while 14% were in favour of more promotional activities.

20. Referring to Chart 19, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan pointed out that 78% of the respondents considered that age discrimination in recruitment was a very urgent, urgent or quite urgent issue to be resolved immediately. Instead of quoting this finding, the Administration was selectively extracting the words "step-by-step approach" from among the responses to support its conclusion that a step-by-step approach should be adopted. SEM said that legislation was only one of the measures to eliminate discrimination. Although 57% of the respondents opined that legislative means were effective, 25% also thought that they were not effective. He added that the survey revealed that there was no consensus view on the introduction of legislative measures and that more publicity was needed in the area of age discrimination. Some people considered that the difficulties encountered by people in seeking employment were only due to the poor economic situation, as the problem was found with all age groups. The Administration would review the situation in six months to one year's time. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan opined that some of the respondents said that legislative means were not effective because they felt that age discrimination in recruitment was so serious that the situation would not improve even if legislative measures were introduced.

21. Miss CHAN Yuen-han considered that a decision on whether legislation against age discrimination should be enacted should not be made on the basis of whether the community was in support of legislative means, but whether legislative means should be introduced. If 82% of the respondents thought that age discrimination in recruitment existed in Hong Kong, legislative means should be introduced. She recalled that when the issue was discussed in 1997, the Administration had indicated that it would use one year's time to strengthen publicity. Such strengthened publicity was found to be inadequate and the problem had worsened. Age discrimination had reached the extent that even people aged over 30 were discriminated. Legislative measures should therefore be introduced as soon as possible to prevent discrimination. SEM said that the current unemployment rate was very high and labour relations were tense. Priority should be given to relieving unemployment and improving labour relations. He reiterated that there was no consensus view on the introduction of legislative means. Miss CHAN Yuen-han considered that the enactment of anti-discrimination legislation and the introduction of measures to tackle unemployment had no conflict and could be proceeded at the same time.

22. Mr SZETO Wah said that the introduction of legislative means and strengthening of publicity were not mutually exclusive and could be proceeded in parallel. Ineffective legislative measures were only a result of inadequate enforcement. The establishment of the EOC was an indication of the community's general support for legislative measures to eliminate discrimination.

23. SEM responded that under the present environment, the Administration did not consider it an appropriate time to introduce legislative measures. It hoped to strengthen publicity and education before considering further measures to be adopted. The view that legislative measures were not effective was only a view of some respondents and not a view of the Administration. If employers had reservations about the introduction of legislative means under the current poor economic situation and high unemployment rate, it might not be the right time to introduce such a measure. He stressed that the Administration was committed to the elimination of age discrimination in recruitment. However, it was currently more appropriate to strengthen publicity and public education. Mr SZETO Wah disagreed to the view that the introduction of legislative measures would lead to a higher unemployment rate. SEM said that given the current tense labour relations, the introduction of legislative means might not be beneficial to the economy of Hong Kong.

24. Mr Andrew CHENG opined that the Administration was selective in the interpretation of information collected. Referring to Chart 39, he said that while 25% of the respondents thought that legislative measures were not effective, 21% of the respondents also thought that the enhancement of publicity through the mass media were not effective. Regarding improvement for existing government measures, only 7% suggested introducing legislative measures since there was currently no legislative measure for improvement. As regards alternative measures to tackle age discrimination in recruitment, he referred to Chart 32 and pointed out that although only 18% of the respondents supported the introduction of legislative measures, those who were in favour of more promotional activities were even less and only amounted to 14%. Chart 39 indicated that the percentage of respondents in favour of legislative means was higher than those in favour of other measures. He opined that all the findings indicated that legislative measures against age discrimination should be introduced.

25. SEM said that different people might have different interpretation of survey findings. The Administration had not hidden away any findings that were unfavourable to the Administration. However, it took the view that there was no pressing need to introduce legislative measures.

26. Mr HO Sai-chu said that under the current economic environment, effort should be concentrated on the creation of more jobs and an environment that encouraged employers to increase investment and employ more people. Without adequate publicity and education, age discrimination in recruitment would still exist even if legislation was enacted.

27. Mr CHAN Kam-lam considered that legislation against age discrimination might not be easy to enforce. He said that even if age discrimination was not found in recruitment advertisements, it might still exist in the actual recruitment process. On the other hand, the recruitment of a young employee might be accused as age discriminatory even though there was no such an intention, thus leading to more litigation in the court. He considered that the Administration should spell out all the advantages and disadvantages of legislative means for deliberation by bodies such as the Labour Advisory Board and LegCo.

28. Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung considered that the introduction of legislative means would not lead to more litigation in the court. He said that there was only a very slight increase in the number of court cases after the enactment of the Sex Discrimination Ordinance (SDO) and Disability Discrimination Ordinance DDO). The increase in the number of female bus drivers and caretakers were indications of the effectiveness of SDO. He questioned why the SDO and DDO could be enacted whereas legislation against age discrimination could not be enacted. SEM responded that the issue of age discrimination was a complex one. While some people considered that there was discrimination against older persons, there were also views that there was discrimination against young people. Legislation against age discrimination was not found in many overseas countries. In countries where there was no retirement age, serious promotion problem had been found. The Administration had to be very careful in addressing the issue. In considering whether to introduce legislative measure against age discrimination, the Administration would have regard to factors such as economic situation, unemployment rate and views of both employers and employees.

VII. Follow-up on right of workers to go on strike or take industrial actions

29. Owing to time constraint, members agreed that discussion of the item be deferred until the next meeting to be held on 22 July 1999.

Clerk

30. There being no other business, the meeting ended at 5:00 pm.

Legislative Council Secretariat
10 September 1999

Legislative Council

LegCo Panel on Manpower Minutes of meeting held on Thursday, 24 June 1999 at 2:30 pm in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building

LegCo Panel on Manpower

Minutes of meeting held on Thursday, 24 June 1999 at 2:30 pm in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building