OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 1 May 1996
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT

    THE PRESIDENT -- THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
    DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
    THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
    DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
    THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
    THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
    THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
    THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
    DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E.
    THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
    THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
    THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
    THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
    DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
    DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
    THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
    THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
    THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P
    . THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM
    THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN
    THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN
    THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO
    THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN
    THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG
    DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG
    THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG
    THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN
    THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
    THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM
    THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
    THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.
    DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK
    THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG
    THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING
    THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
    THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE
    THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING
    THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN
    THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG
    THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN
    THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI
    THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING
    DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING
    THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
    THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING

MEMBERS ABSENT

    THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
    DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
    THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
ATTORNEY GENERAL
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MISS DENISE YUE CHUNG-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR ALAN LAI NIN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG
SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG
DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH
ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU
ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2):

Subject

Subsidiary Legislation

L.N. No.

Grant Schools Provident Fund (Amendment) Rules 1996

62/96

Subsidized Schools Provident Fund (Amendment) Rules 1996

163/96

Official Languages (Alteration of Text) (Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance) Order 1996

164/96

Air Pollution Control (Amendment) Ordinance 1993 (13 of 1993) (Commencement) Notice 1996

165/96

Air Pollution Control (Asbestos) (Administration) Regulation (L.N. 128 of 1996) (Commencement) Notice 1996

166/96

Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)(Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance) Order

(C) 36/96

Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Registrar General (Establishment) (Transfer of Functions and Repeal) Ordinance) Order

(C) 37/96

Sessional Papers 1995-96

No. 79 ¢w Hong Kong Examinations Authority Financial Statements with Programme of Activities for the year ended 31 August 1995

No. 80 ¢w The Government Minute in Response to the Report No. 25 of the Public Accounts Committee dated January 1996

ADDRESS

The Government Minute in Response to the Report No. 25 of the Public Accounts Committee dated January 1996

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, laid on the table today is the Government Minute responding to Report No. 25 of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). The Minute sets out the measures the Government has taken, or is planning to take, on the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Report.

The Honourable Eric LI, the Chairman of the PAC, spoke in this Council on 7 February 1996 when tabling the Report. He highlighted five areas of particular concern to Members of the Committee to which I would now like to respond.

First, police indebtedness. As I have said on more than one occasion, as the Chief Secretary, I regard it my first duty to ensure that Hong Kong has a public service which is honest and efficient and remains committed to serving the best interests of the community. I and my senior colleagues recognize that serious pecuniary embarrassment might affect the integrity of the officers concerned. We are aware of the need to contain the problem so that public confidence in the Civil Service is not adversely affected, particularly confidence in the men and women whose duty it is to maintain law and order. The Commissioner of Police, therefore, maintains a very strict policy on indebtedness of police officers. He requires that all police officers should be temperate and prudent in their financial affairs. As the Secretary for Security will outline in his response later today to the motion proposed by the Honourable Ambrose LAU, the Police Force has developed a comprehensive strategy for preventing, identifying and dealing with the indebtedness of police officers.

The Commissioner monitors the situation closely by conducting regular six-monthly surveys on indebtedness among police officers. The Government Minute before you contains the findings of the latest survey which show a downward trend in the number of cases of known indebtedness from sources outside the Government. The Police Force management will continue to monitor the situation closely and take appropriate action to tackle the problem. The Commissioner will make regular reports of further surveys to this Council's Panel on Security.

Second, superannuation schemes of tertiary institutions. Members will wish to know that all University Grants Committee-funded institutions have registered their schemes under the Occupational Retirement Schemes Ordinance. Admittedly, three of the schemes, namely, those of the University of Hong Kong, the Polytechnic University and the Chinese University of Hong Kong, are currently registered under an "insolvent" status ¢w these schemes have yet to reach the standards of solvency stipulated in the Ordinance. But the institutions concerned are taking positive measures to improve the longer-term financial viability of their schemes. We are confident that these schemes should be able to achieve solvency before the legislative deadline, that is, 15 October 1998.

Third, advance accounts for the care and maintenance of Vietnamese migrants. Following the meeting of the PAC in November 1995, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) has given us another repayment and has issued a letter reiterating its commitment to repaying Hong Kong the outstanding amount and stating that this commitment is not bound by any timeframe. We understand the latter expression to mean that 1997 is not a factor in the UNHCR commitment. We therefore remain of the view that the advances are recoverable. The Financial Secretary, in the light of these developments, has re-affirmed that the advance account arrangement should continue.

We, nevertheless, fully appreciate Members' concern about the significant amount of outstanding advances accumulated over the years. I wish to assure Members that we shall continue to liaise very closely with the High Commissioner with a view to securing full repayment as soon as possible.

On the definition of "recoverable advances" under section 20 of the Public Finance Ordinance, having regard to a genuine need to cater for all possible circumstances where recoverable advances need to be made and the fact that so far, all advances other than for the care and maintenance of Vietnamese migrants, have been cleared in a timely fashion, we do not consider it necessary to fetter the Financial Secretary's authority under the Ordinance.

Fourth, Public Cargo Working Areas (PCWAs). Let me say at the outset that the Administration shares the PAC's view that the first-come-first-served berth allocation system no longer meets the needs of the trade. However, we find it hard to accept the PAC's remark that we lack knowledge of operation of the cargo handling trade. As the Director of Audit has pointed out, the Director of Marine has undertaken a number of management studies with a view to finding suitable measures to improve the management of the PCWAs. We have attempted various management modifications but unfortunately with only limited success. The PAC is right to demand that we should devise an open, fair and economically viable system that best meets the needs of the trade as early as possible. We believe we have now come up with the solutions and we will redouble our efforts to make them work.

As explained in the Government Minute, our consultants recommend that the most practical way to resolve the problems of PCWA management is to allocate PCWA berths through open and competitive bidding. Action is now in hand to implement the recommendations. The Economic Services Branch has formed a working group to oversee the management reform. Our plan is to replace, in phases, the current berth allocation system by a tendering arrangement. We are consulting the trade and aim to tender out the majority of the berthing spaces by the end of this year.

On the aspect of law and order in PCWAs, the Director of Marine has taken steps to enhance liaison between the PCWA managers, the local police and Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) representatives. Economic Services Branch has also put in place a system calling for joint reports from the PCWA management in conjunction with the police and the ICAC. Hopefully, this would remove the criminal and "triad" elements in PCWAs.

Finally, consultants. I must respectfully put it to Members that the observation of the PAC on the Government's "seemingly habitual dependency on external consultants" is unfounded. The use, selection and management of consultants by the Government are subject to rigorous procedures. Our system ensures that consultants are used only when necessary and appropriate, and that both the desired results and value for money are obtained.

We do not give approval for the use of consultants unless there is a clear need for specialist professional expertise which the department concerned does not possess, or there is a significant shortfall in the required professional skills to undertake the task. No doubt Members will appreciate, if we were to undertake all our projects in-house, it would require an unacceptable expansion of the Civil Service. The use of consultants allows us to meet the uneven workload demands imposed on departments by time-limited projects in a cost-effective manner.

We have clearly stipulated guidelines for the selection of consultants to ensure the best value for money for the Government. We have successfully operated a lump sum fee competitive system for some years to achieve an appropriate balance between technical competence and cost in the selection process.

Many of the staff employed on consultancies are prominent experts in their field. We have optimized the opportunities for technology transfer from these consultant teams to civil servants.

We also monitor closely the work of consultants. We provide high quality briefs to steer the consultants' work and have established clear and effective procedures to monitor all aspects of the progress and management of a consultancy. The Chairman has made reference to PAC Members' concerns that they often see cases where the relevant departments were ill-prepared to select, brief and monitor the progress of consultants. I accept that there may be room for improvement in this respect, but we must maintain a proper perspective of the problem. Policy Secretaries and the Works Directors would be very happy to follow up cases where Members feel improvements are called for.

Mr President, the Government is committed to working closely with the Audit Department and the PAC in our quest for the more efficient use of public funds. I am confident that the measures we have taken, or are planning to take, will go a long way towards this end.

PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, the Chairman of the House Committee, Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung, has conveyed to me the House Committee's decision to request the Chief Secretary to give an account to Members of her recent visit to Beijing, possibly by making a statement in this Council. In the event that the Chief Secretary makes a statement in this Council on the visit, Members would like to have Standing Order 20(2) suspended and I would be asked to give permission to waive the notice of the motion to suspend the above-mentioned Standing Order.

A simpler way to achieve the purpose of obtaining information on the Chief Secretary's recent visit to Beijing is the asking of a question in Council along the lines of "Will the Chief Secretary give a full account to this Council of her recent visit to Beijing?". Of course, whether the question may be asked at this particular sitting without notice depends on whether it satisfies the conditions laid down in Standing Order 17(4), that is, the question must be of an urgent character and relates to a matter of public importance.

I am of the opinion that a question couched in the terms that I have just described would meet the requirements of Standing Order 17(4) and I have advised Dr LEONG that I would be prepared to give permission for such a question to be asked without notice at this sitting.

Dr LEONG has so requested my permission. As the private notice of the question he has given to the Government is, I think, sufficient, I have given him permission to ask a question without notice concerning the Chief Secretary's visit to Beijing.

Before I call on Dr LEONG to ask the question, I would like to take this opportunity to advise Members that I am loath to give consent to waive the notice of a motion for the purpose of suspending the Standing Orders of this Council. As the President of this Council, I have to take care of the interests of all Members, especially Members belonging to minority groupings and Members not belonging to any groupings at all. The discretion to waive the notice of a motion to suspend Standing Orders should be exercised most cautiously and permission granted only under very exceptional circumstances.

In this particular case, as there is a more efficient and direct way to meet Members' needs, I would prefer not to waive the notice of the motion to suspend Standing Orders.

Dr LEONG, please ask your private notice question which logically preceeds the regular questions as it is urgent and of public importance.

Chief Secretary's Visit to Beijing

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, will the Chief Secretary give a full account to this Council of her recent visit to Beijing?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, the Chief Secretary is delighted to give a full account of her recent visit to Beijing.

At the invitation of Mr LU Ping, Director of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office of the State Council, I visited Beijing from 25 to 27 April. I was accompanied by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs and three supporting staff. I had a very useful and business-like meeting with Mr LU on 26 April.

Mr LU and I exchanged views on a wide range of key transitional issues, covering political as well as economic matters. These included co-operation with the Preparatory Committee, the Civil Service, co-operation with the Chief Executive Officer (Designate), the Provisional Legislature, Hong Kong's economic autonomy and the second runway at Chek Lap Kok.

On co-operation with the Preparatory Committee, Honourable Members will be aware that on 1 April, our Liaison Office received from the Preparatory Committee Secretariat Hong Kong Office a list of items for co-operation. The full list containing altogether 10 items was published by the Secretariat of the Preparatory Committee yesterday evening. After studying the list carefully and in a positive spirit, we arrived at a preliminary response. I made use of my Beijing visit to deliver our response to Mr LU in his capacity as Secretary General of the Preparatory Committee Secretariat.

I reiterated to Mr LU our readiness to offer the Preparatory Committee practical assistance on the basis of our three established parameters. Of the 10 items put forward by the Preparatory Committee, we have already provided assistance on some of them. In the recent meetings of the Selection Committee Sub-group and the Economic Sub-group in Hong Kong, we made appropriate security arrangements and facilitated processing of visa applications. We also arranged for the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Monetary Affairs to give a briefing on the proposed Mortgage Corporation. In addition, the Preparatory Committee had asked for information on the functional constituencies which represented the professional sectors, plus a list of legislation amended or newly made since 1984. These are all factual and open information which I left with Mr LU during our meeting.

As for the other items, these included giving the Preparatory Committee access to television and radio air time, assisting the activities of the Selection Committee, providing office accommodation and information to the Chief Executive (Designate), providing assistance for the establishment of the Court of Final Appeal, and providing information on government departments. I explained to Mr LU that we would require further clarification of the Preparatory Committee's requirements before we could consider further these requests. Both sides agreed that the Liaison Office and the Preparatory Committee Secretariat should follow up.

The Preparatory Committee also sought our assistance for the provisional legislature. On this matter, I reiterated the British Government's and the Hong Kong Government's position on a provisional legislature, and made it clear that we were unable to help in this area. We remained committed, however, to co-operating in other areas consistent with our three established parameters.

On the Civil Service, I told Mr LU that my colleagues have found the public statement issued after the recent meeting at The Hague between the two Foreign Ministers reassuring. In particular, they welcomed China's agreement that continuity of the Civil Service was vital to a successful transition, that all civil servants were welcomed to stay on to work for the Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government, and that civil servants should remain loyal to the people of Hong Kong and to the Hong Kong Government before 1 July 1997, and to the SAR Government thereafter. I expressed the hope that both sides would continue to build on that to maintain the morale and confidence of the Civil Service. Mr LU fully agreed with my sentiments, and repeated the hope that all civil servants would stay on to serve the SAR Government.

On co-operation with the Chief Executive Officer (Designate), we had some initial exchange of ideas on the possible modalities for co-operation. I made clear to Mr LU that we would be offering full co-operation and would provide the Chief Executive Officer (Designate) with sufficient support, whilst ensuring the morale of the Civil Service and the effective administration of Hong Kong. In this connection, I stressed that it would be best to allow Principal Officials (Designate) to remain in their posts, but to encourage the closest co-operation and dialogue between them and the Chief Executive Officer (Designate). Both sides agreed to continue discussion.

On the question of a provisional legislature, there remains a fundamental difference between the two sides. The clear and consistent position of both the British and the Hong Kong Governments is that such a body is neither necessary nor desirable. I spent some time explaining why that was so. I made it clear that we were unable to accept two legislative bodies operating in parallel before 1 July 1997. Mr LU assured me that there would not be a second centre of power in Hong Kong, and that the work of the Preparatory Committee would not interfere with the effective administration of Hong Kong. The Preparatory Committee would be concerned solely with preparing for the normal operation of the SAR after 1 July 1997.

On economic matters, I conveyed to Mr LU the community's concern over Hong Kong's future economic autonomy and, in that context, urged for early Chinese agreement to the six mobile telephone licences. Mr LU reaffirmed that Hong Kong would have autonomy in handling its own economic and financial affairs, as guaranteed by the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. He also undertook to look into the question of the mobile telephones.

Finally, I took the opportunity to inform Mr LU a study conducted by the Airport Authority indicated that there was a strong case to bring forward the commissioning of the second runway at Chek Lap Kok to end-1998. I expressed to Mr LU the Hong Kong Government's confidence that the Airport Authority would do this cost-effectively. Mr LU said that the Chinese side had no problem with the project, and suggested that before we put the proposal to the Airport Committee for confirmation, we should brief the Economic Sub-group of the Preparatory Committee. This we will do soon.

All told, the meeting allowed both parties to have a frank exchange of views. It gave me an opportunity to draw Mr LU's attention to specific Hong Kong concerns and to underline our willingness to co-operate in resolving the remaining transitional issues. Mr LU and I agreed that we should maintain contact, and that the two sides should step up and intensify co-operation in the final 14 months before the transition. In my view, it is essential for the officials of both sides to increase communication and understanding and develop trust at all levels, so that we can achieve a smooth transition on the basis of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. I hope to be able to build on the dialogue which I now have with Mr LU.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, can the Chief Secretary express to this Council whether she considers that any breakthrough has been achieved in Sino-Hong Kong relationship on her visit to Beijing; in particular, has she managed to acquire the assurance of the Chinese Government that civil servants should and must be allowed to maintain political neutrality which is so essential and vital to the running of an efficient Civil Service?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I was not personally expecting any significant breakthrough from this visit, but I see this visit as a useful building block in developing a relationship of trust, in seeking a dialogue, and in particular, seeing where we can maximize co-operation. I believe this to be what the people of Hong Kong want and what the civil servants wish to see.

Insofar as the position of civil servants is concerned, Mr LU has, of course, on previous occasions, and again on this occasion, reiterated and reconfirmed the need for civil servants to maintain political neutrality, to be dedicated and loyal to serving the people of Hong Kong before 1997, and to do the same, in terms of serving the SAR Government, after 1997.

MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Mr President, the Chief Secretary just told us that in the area about co-operation with the Chief Executive (Designate), that there was some exchange on possible modalities. I wonder if the Chief Secretary could expand upon that?

And further, she did point out two particular areas. She mentioned that there must be effective administration in Hong Kong and also that civil servants should remain in their posts. Could she explain whether these were the modalities that she put forward or whether these are modalities that the Chinese Government has accepted?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I think I have made clear in my main reply that although we had a brief discussion of the modalities, we did not reach any final agreement and I do not expect, at one meeting, to be able to reach agreement on what is after all a very important and complex issue.

There are various options, clearly, in terms of ensuring continuity and stability in the Civil Service. Our preferred option would clearly be ¢w and as I have pointed out in my main reply ¢w for Principal Officials (Designate) to remain in their posts; for the Chief Executive (Designate) to be adequately and strongly supported in terms of both resources and particularly manpower; for there to be extremely close co-operation and communication between the Chief Executive and his team and all Principal Officials (Designate).

PRESIDENT: I am a bit surprised that you did not respond to Miss LOH's Freudian slip.

CHIEF SECRETARY: I was too busy, Mr President, listening to the triple-barrelled question.

MR YUM SIN-LING (in Cantonese): If a second centre of power, that is the designated team of the Provisional Legislature, were to emerge before 1997, the Hong Kong Government will certainly vow to oppose it. However, has the Government, to a certain extent, undertaken to co-operate with the Preparatory Committee in the manner it proposed, which is indirectly recognizing the Provisional Legislature to be set up after 1 July 1997? Has the Chief Secretary touched upon anything in this respect?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I think our immediate concern is what happens in the lead up to 1 July 1997. In that respect, both Mr QIAN Qichen and Mr LU Ping have made it abundantly clear that there will not be a second centre of power in Hong Kong and that the effective administration of Hong Kong will not in any way be undermined. Indeed, Mr QIAN made it quite clear that on this side of 1997, the only people and organizations who will exercise power would be the Governor, the present Legislative Council and the Privy Council.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, Mr QIAN Qichen, the Chinese Foreign Minister, said that the existence of the Provisional Legislature is already "beyond reversion" while Mrs Anson CHAN, the Chief Secretary, stressed after she returned to Hong Kong after her visit to Beijing that they were trying to seek common ground while reserving differences. Does this show that China, Britain and Hong Kong have reached a new consensus on the Provisional Legislature, that is the Government will make light of the matter and tacitly consent to and recognize this irreversible fact that the Provisional Legislature will be set up after 1997, provided that the Chinese side will promise that the Provisional Legislature will not openly hinder the operation of this Council before 1997? Will the Government adopt a policy that the pre-1997 Government will not interfere with the post-1997 Government, so that the Government will not openly oppose the Provisional Legislature, but will only passively say that it is unnecessary and undesirable, however, the Government can do nothing about it even if it is really set up before 1997?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I think the Government has made it abundantly clear what its position is on the provisional legislature. We have said and will continue to say that in our view, it is neither necessary nor desirable to have a provisional legislature. We have a legislature which has been returned through open and fair elections in the elections that were conducted in September last year.

Clearly, in terms of continuity and in terms of giving confidence to the community of Hong Kong, it would be best for this legislature to be able to continue to function for its full four-year term, that is, to continue after 1997. That has been our consistent position and it will be our position.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, it appears that the bone of contention is still the provisional legislature. I would like to know whether the Chief Secretary has considered perhaps the best way out is for both sides to stop arguing on the legitimacy or otherwise of the, whatever it is called, legislature of the future, but explore whether there are any practical ways to have some sort of working relationship, provided that the provisional legislature does not concern itself with any affairs before 1997, and perhaps even provided that it does not do anything within the territorial boundaries of Hong Kong, than if there is a practical need for civil servants to have some sort of assistance which might help a smooth transition? Has the Government explored such possibilities, or is it willing to do so?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, without in any way accepting the proviso that the Honourable Howard YOUNG has stipulated, I, of course, agree that notwithstanding that there are fundamental differences between the two sides on the provisional legislature, we must not allow disagreement in this area to prevent us from exploring and maximizing the scope for co-operation in other areas so that we can make the transition as smooth as possible. I believe that to be the wish of the community and to be the wish, also, of the civil servants.

Our position on the provisional legislature has been very clearly set out and we will continue to make our views known on the provisional legislature. But I do agree with Mr YOUNG that it is important to seek to maximize areas for co-operation.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, amongst the 10 items requested by the Preparatory Committee, the request for access to air time of Radio Television Hong Kong (RTHK) is quite a sensitive issue, for this request has made the staff of RTHK and the public at large worried about whether RTHK's editorial independence and autonomy will be undermined. Upon returning to Hong Kong, the Chief Secretary told the media that assistance could be offered provided that the editorial independence of RTHK would not be infringed. The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs also expressed that during the era of the Basic Law Drafting Committee, the air time for the Announcement of Public Interest had also been used. To use RTHK's air time without infringing upon its editorial independence seems to have sparked off a conflict. When there is such a conflict, would the Government refuse the request of the Preparatory Committee based on the principle of protecting or safeguarding the editorial independence of RTHK?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I do not see that there is necessarily an anomaly between, on the one hand, saying that the editorial independence of Radio Television Hong Kong will not in any way be compromised or undermined, and on the other to say that, within the three parameters for co-operation which I have set out, and consistent with our broadcasting policy and a well-established regulatory framework, we cannot consider positively the request from the Preparatory Committee for access to air time, whether it is on television or through the radio.

Well, I have explained to Mr LU that before we reach a final decision, it would be necessary for us to have a clearer idea as to what types of assistance the Preparatory Committee is looking for, in particular, the sort of information that they wish to put across, either on radio or on television. Once we have that clarification, we will be in a better position to make a final decision.

PRESIDENT: Mr FUNG, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): My question is: since the principles put forward by the Chief Secretary and the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs may cause a conflict, will the Government preserve the editorial independence of RTHK when such conflict arises? The Chief Secretary has not answered my question directly, she only said that further information was needed before a decision could be made.

PRESIDENT: Mr FUNG, you have been expressing a view that there is necessarily a conflict; and the situation you have just described is hypothetical.

MRS ELIZABETH WONG: Mr President, this time last week, I wished the Chief Secretary well in her visit to Beijing. Today, I would like to register my appreciation of the effort that our Chief Secretary has, on behalf of Hong Kong, put in; particularly, she has put in her best foot forward in the diplomatic cha-cha-cha of a dialogue with China.

But I would like to ask a question, nevertheless. I would like to ask whether the Chief Secretary considers that she is fighting a lost cause, particularly with reference to the provisional legislature because of her response? She said it was neither necessary nor desirable; and she said that there was nothing she could do to help with the setting up. But did she or did she not say that the setting up of the provisional legislature is in fact in breach of the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law and is therefore illegal. This was put to us quite categorically in the reply by Mr Robin COOK this morning.

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I made it clear to Mr LU, not just on this occasion but on previous occasions, that in the view of the British and Hong Kong Governments, there is no need for the setting up of a provisional legislature. There is, indeed, no mention of a provisional legislature in either the Joint Declaration or the Basic Law. In our view, it is best for continuity and confidence for the existing legislature to serve out its full four-year term. That has been our position and it will remain our position.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the exchange of views between the Chief Secretary and Mr LU mainly concerned the transition of the civic servants. Recently, the legal and the judicial sectors have been very much concerned about the Construction of Article 93 of the Basic Law, which is connected with the transition of judicial officers. Has the Chief Secretary discussed this issue with Mr LU? If not, can the Chief Secretary undertake to clarify this issue as soon as possible?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, we did not specifically discuss this issue, but on the basis that I hope to have a continuing dialogue with Mr LU, I would of course be very happy to take up this issue with him at an appropriate time.

MISS MARGARET NG: Mr President, with respect to the provisional legislative council, the Government had used in the past the word "unjustifiable" to describe such proposal. Is this word now being dropped as somewhat too strong and the weaker words of "unnecessary and undesirable" are used in substitution?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I believe I have used various words in describing and reiterating our position on the provisional legislature. Certainly, the word "unjustifiable" has been used by me on more than one occasion.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, today the Chief Secretary formally responded on behalf of the Government the way in which Preparatory Committee may be assisted. One of the duties of the Preparatory Committee is preparing for the establishment of the Selection Committee whilst one of the duties of the Selection Committee is setting up the Provisional Legislature. Can the Chief Secretary inform us whether the Government has, as what we felt today, slowly and silently changed its policy from opposing the setting up of a provisional legislature to indirectly assisting its establishment?

CHIEF SECRETARY: The Joint Declaration and the Basic Law have clearly defined the responsibilities of the Selection Committee. We have agreed to co-operate with China on those fronts within the three established parameters.

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): Mr President, my question is similar to that of the Honourable Frederick FUNG. However, before I ask the question, I would like to express my appreciation to the Chief Secretary, who has remained standing today when answering our questions and has shown much initiative in responding to our questions. However, I feel that the Government has shown less initiative in respect of the question concerning the Preparatory Committee's request for access to RTHK's air time for propaganda ......

PRESIDENT: Mr Andrew CHENG, please resume your seat. Since you have touched on this point and the Chief Secretary is standing and that no two Members ought to be standing at the same time, you might be raising a point of order. But I purposely turn a blind-eye to the fact as I do not wish to see the Chief Secretary sitting down and then jumping up again so very often. Mr CHENG, you may continue. (Laughter)

MR ANDREW CHENG (in Cantonese): I respect the Chief Secretary and so I find it much better to remain standing. In my opinion, the Government has not shown much initiative in response to the issue concerning RTHK. The Chief Secretary, in answering Mr FUNG's question, gave us the same impression as when the Governor responded to this question, who said that further explanation from the Chinese side was needed as to what it would requet RTHK to do. Has the British Hong Kong Government adopted a specific and substantial position to maintain the autonomy and editorial independence of RTHK? Can the Chief Secretary, on behalf of the Government, confirm that the Government will certainly act in such a way that the RTHK will not become a branch of the Central Radio Station in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I thought I made it clear in an answer to an earlier supplementary question that we do not have the intention in any way of, and there is no question of us, undermining the editorial independence of Radio Television Hong Kong. I said that on the basis that the editorial independence of Radio Television Hong Kong will not in any way be adversely affected, and within our established broadcasting policy and the clearly laid out regulatory framework, we would be prepared to consider to offer air time. But before we do so, we need to have further details from the Preparatory Committee.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Chief Secretary informed us that the 10 items requested by the Chinese Government or the Preparatory Committee, or the "10 commandments" as described by some high ranking officers, were presented to the Hong Kong Government on 1 April, but were only published by the Secretariat of the Preparatory Committee yesterday. Would the Chief Secretary inform us why the Government has to wait for an entire month before making this known to the public? Of course, we could read about this in some magazines, but we were not sure whether the reports were true or not. Some high ranking officers, including some Branch Secretaries, were totally kept in the dark, although some of these requests were related to their duties. Has the Chief Secretary tried to make the list known to the public and inform her colleagues what they were all about as soon as agreement was obtained from the Chinese side? More importantly, if such orders are given in the future, will the Government trust Hong Kong people and the colleaques of the Chief Secretary and inform us what is going on as soon as possible?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, the list is, of course, a list that was handed to the Hong Kong Government by the Hong Kong Secretariat of the Preparatory Committee, and it was agreed that whilst we were in the process of considering in a very preliminary way our response to these 10 items of co-operation, that we should for the time being hold off publication of the list. This is not in any way an attempt to prevent Members or the community from learning the details of this list of items for co-operation. And of course, as the Honourable Miss Emily LAU pointed out, the Secretariat of the Preparatory Committee has now published the list.

Internally, the Constitutional Affairs Branch is of course responsible for considering our initial response to the list of requested co-operation and the Secretary has done so on the basis of established policies which are clear to all Policy Secretaries. Clearly, as our initial response develops on the basis of further clarification from the Preparatory Committee, there may be a requirement to seek further and more in-depth views from Policy Secretaries which we will of course do.

MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is learnt that the Preparatory Committee has requested for a lot of information from the Government. Can the Chief Secretary inform us whether such information is disclosable to the public when being submitted to the Preparatory Committee? Will it contain some information which will not or cannot be provided to this Council?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, all the information that we have provided so far is open information readily available to members of the public. To the extent that additional information may be required by the Preparatory Committee and which we feel able to offer, we have already undertaken to keep Members of this Council fully informed by regular briefings.

PRESIDENT: Mr WONG, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Yes, Mr President, the Chief Secretary has just said that if the Preparatory Committee asks for additional information, they will consider their request. The main thrust of my question is: Will the Government provide the Preparatory Committee with information which cannot and will not be provided to this Council?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, we have already undertaken to be fully accountable to Members of this Council in whatever information we supply to the Preparatory Committee.

MR PAUL CHENG: Will the Chief Secretary convey to this Council and to the Hong Kong community that in her view, based on her meetings in Beijing, that she found Director LU and the other Chinese officials she met were all sincere and genuine in their desire to ensure that stability and prosperity in Hong Kong are maintained both pre-and post-1997?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I gained the impression that both sides are very keen to intensify co-operation; both sides are keen to see a smooth transition; and both sides are keen to maintain confidence and stability and continuity within the Civil Service.

MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, the Chief Secretary, in regard to the provisional legislature, has used the words "unjustifiable", "unnecessary" and "undesirable". But she has never used the word "illegal". Is it the position of the Hong Kong Government that the Hong Kong Government does not consider the provisional legislature illegal because it is inconsistent with the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, the Governor has made the Hong Kong Government's position on this issue very clear in his last Question and Answer Session in this Council. I have again reiterated the Government's position on the provisional legislature this afternoon and I really have nothing further to add to my remarks.

MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr President, as Head of the Civil Service, the Chief Secretary in fact was very much expected to bring messages of assurance back to the community and to the Civil Service as to the smooth transition for the Civil Service. I just wonder whether the Chief Secretary could tell this Council whether any specific messages could actually be passed on to the Civil Service to this effect, to ensure that their morale could be uplifted and that their confidence could be enhanced?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, the specific assurances, although they are not of course new assurances, are these: first of all, that the Chinese leaders wish to see maximum continuity and stability in the Civil Service; they wish to see all civil servants remaining in their posts and serving the SAR Government after 1997.

They have reconfirmed that they have no intention of establishing a second power centre in Hong Kong before 1997 and that the Preparatory Committee will only be involved in work that is necessary for the smooth functioning of the SAR Government after 1997.

Above all, they have made it clear that they will maintain political neutrality within the Civil Service and that all they ask of civil servants is that they remain loyal and dedicated to serving the people of Hong Kong both now and after 1997.

MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Chief Secretary has just said that the list submitted by the Preparatory Committee was revealed to us only one month after the Government has received it because the Government has agreed with the Preparatory Committee that it would hold off publication of the list. Is there anything, besides this, that the Hong Kong Government has promised the Preparatory Committee that it will keep secret?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I do not think there is anything particularly secretive in agreeing with the Chinese that until such time as we have formalized our position on the 10 requested items of co-operation that we should, for the time being, hold off publication of the list. There are no other areas where we have made any secret deals and I reiterate again we have said that we remain fully accountable to this Council in our dealings with the Preparatory Committee.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, can the Chief Secretary inform us why the Government has to agree with the Chinese side to keep 10 items on the list secret and not to make it known to the public?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, can I make it clear again that there is no secret deal. We simply agreed to hold off publication until such time as both sides were ready to make the issue publicly known, and this the Secretariat of the Preparatory (Committee) has now done. It is, after all, their list and it is ultimately for them to decide when to publish the list.

DR JOHN TSE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to ask a simple question. Is the Provisional Legislature legal? I would like a "yes" or "no" answer.

PRESIDENT: Dr TSE, I think you are seeking the expression of a legal opinion which runs contrary to Standing Orders.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, does the Chief Secretary understand that the community wishes to know the requests of the Chinese Government and to discuss it? However, she has handled the matter in such a way that it was made known to us only after a decision (perhaps not a final one) has been made. Does this run contrary to the practice of an open, fair and accountable Government? In fact, she should have informed us of the rationale and then come to a decision after discussion. But it seems that she has done the reverse. Have I misunderstood her?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, in the areas in which I have indicated we have already co-operated with the Preparatory Committee and are prepared to continue to do so, I do not think that these are issues on which Members of this Council would take issue.

As regards the other areas, we await clarification from the Preparatory Committee Hong Kong Office and when that clarification is available, we will be very happy to discuss our final response with Members of this Council.

MR LEE WING-TAT: A point of order.

PRESIDENT: Mr LEE Wing-tat, do you have a point of order?

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, my question is related to the previous one, because you have just made a ruling on Dr the Honourable TSE's question that he was seeking legal opinion. However, if I remember it correctly, the Honourable Henry TANG has also raised a similar question. He asked the Chief Secretary why the word "illegal" was not used in describing the Provisional Legislature and his question was allowed. I would like Mr President to rule why the first question was not seeking legal opinion but the second question was?

PRESIDENT: This is not a point of order, you are seeking an explanation of my ruling.

MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, my question is related to the Provisional Legislature. I am not seeking legal opinion but I wish to know the Government's position. Just now, the Chief Secretary has also mentioned that the Provisional Legislature is not provided for in the Sino-British agreements. As there is no provision concerning such an organization in the said legal document, does the Government consider the Provisional Legislature as an organization which is in breach of the Sino-British agreement and is therefore illegal?

PRESIDENT: Thank you for helping Dr TSE to rephrase it.

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I think I have made the Government's position on the provisional legislature abundantly clear. I really have nothing to add to my previous remarks.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, can the Chief Secretary tell us, as to the exchange between herself and Mr LU Ping in Beijing, did the fundamental disagreement lie in the existence of the Provisional Legislature; or in the discussion concerning whether the Provisional Legislature will start operating before 1 July 1997, or whether the Provisional Legislature will operate in Hong Kong?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I confirm that I think our fundamental disagreement is over the need for a provisional legislature. The Government's position on this is clear. As I have said on previous occasions, if the Chinese insists on proceeding with a provisional legislature, then, it is of course for the Chinese Government to explain why it is necessary, in what way it is good for confidence and for continuity in the systems and policies and programmes which the community clearly are very concerned about.

MR TSANG KIN-SHING (in Cantonese): Mr President, neither the Governor nor the Chief Secretary has made it clear what will be done in respect of the Provisional Legislature after 1997. In my opinion, a responsible government should be responsible for what it did in the past. The Legislative Council, returned by elections in 1995, should logically serve a term of office up to 1999. But I do not see what the Government is going to do now on the issue of the Provisional Legislature and the transition of the current Legislative Council after 1 July 1997. The Government has only confirmed whether compensation would be paid after its dissolution but it has not positively answered the crux of the question. Can the Chief Secretary inform us whether she has fought for a full term of office up to 1999 for Members of this Council?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, can I reiterate again that we have impressed upon the Chinese we see no need and indeed can see a great deal of harm in having a provisional legislature. In our view the Chinese should allow the current Legislature to continue after 1997. That is clearly what the people of Hong Kong want and what the civil servants wish to see.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, the Chief Secretary said to us that she expressed the view to Director LU that the Principal Officials (Designate) should remain in post but would give every assistance to the Chief Executive (Designate). I just wonder whether the Chief Secretary is actually expecting a response from the Chinese Government on this particular point and if so, when is it likely that she might get a reply?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, what Mr LU and I agreed was that on the question of modalities for co-operation with the Chief Executive (Designate), both sides will continue discussions and I would expect that in the context of these discussions, it will become clearer what is the best modality to go for.

PRESIDENT: Although this particular exchange has lasted for less than one hour, I think Members and myself certainly appreciate the Chief Secretary's courtesy and stamina in giving her answers standing whilst the Governor takes his sitting down. (Laughter)

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Principal Officials (Designate) Remaining in Posts

1. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, it has been reported that some members of the Preparatory Committee have suggested that incumbent policy secretaries of the Hong Kong Government should leave the Hong Kong civil service temporarily upon being appointed principal officials-designate of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government (HKSARG), in order that they may take up such posts before 1 July 1997. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council of the serious impact the implementation of this suggestion will have on the operation of the Government, and whether it will divide the civil service and cause contradictions among civil servants?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government has made clear that it will co-operate fully with the Chief Executive (Designate) within practical, efficient and common sense arrangements. Such co-operation will be based on the following three principles:

- consistency with the provisions of the Joint Declaration and Basic Law;

- no undermining of the authority and credibility of the Hong Kong Government in its responsibility for administration of the territory until midnight 30 June 1997; and

- no actions to adversely affect the morale and confidence of the civil service.

I believe that Honourable Members would not expect me to speculate on the modalities of co-operation, or to respond to unverified reports in the press. I would only stress that the continuity of the civil service is self-evidently crucial to a smooth and successful transition. Indeed, it is adequately guaranteed by the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. However, I can tell Honourable Members that at present, Policy Secretaries all have very full schedules, and if they have to leave their posts for a long period, it would certainly lead to serious consequences; including the maintenance of effective administration of Hong Kong.

In this connection, the Foreign Secretary and the Vice Premier QIAN Qichen issued a public statement after their recent meeting at The Hague. The two sides agreed that continuity of the civil service was vital for a successful transition, reaffirmed the commitment to a politically impartial civil service, and agreed that civil servants should continue to serve Hong Kong with dedication and remain loyal to the Hong Kong Government before 1 July 1997 and the Special Administrative Region Government thereafter. Vice Premier QIAN also said that China hoped that all civil servants would stay on to serve the Special Administrative Region Government. He also confirmed that until 1 July 1997 the Governor, Privy Council and Legislative Council alone would exercise power in Hong Kong. Following his discussions with the Chief Secretary, Director LU Ping also reiterated that the Chinese government would not have a second power centre in Hong Kong and that there would be no interference in Hong Kong Government's effective administration before 30 June 1997.

The Hong Kong Government welcomes these statements.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the second paragraph of the main reply said: "At present, Policy Secretaries all have very full schedules, and if they have to leave their posts for a long period, it would certainly lead to serious consequences; including the maintenance of effective administration of Hong Kong." Will the Secretary for the Civil Service inform us, disregarding the political contention and just from the point of view of the effective administration of Hong Kong, whether he agrees that there will certainly be disastrous impact on the administration of Hong Kong if there is an early "transfer" of incumbent Policy Secretaries before 1997? If so, has the Hong Kong Government reflected this situation to the Chinese Government?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not want to give a casual response to a speculative report, but it follows from common reasoning that the work of an organization will be certainly be affected seriously if its principal officers have to leave their posts for a long period of time. This is just common sense and I believe most people should understand this.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the third paragraph of the main reply quoted Mr QIAN Qichen as saying: "China hoped that all civil servants would stay on." However, Mr President, staying on is not the same thing as staying in the same posts. Will the Government inform this Council whether it would work towards making China and the Chief Executive (Designate) agree to letting all Policy Secretaries stay in the same Secretary posts during the transitional period in 1997, in order to achiev a smooth transition for these Secretaries and to avoid a, even when common sense is applied, ridiculous situation where Policy Secretaries are appointed by the Chief Executive (Designate) on some other occasions to certain shadow posts which are different from the ones they hold in the Hong Kong Government during the day, a situation which could cause contradiction and confusion in staffing and even in policy making?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, the smooth running of the Government depends largely on the smooth hand-over and transition of the civil service system, especially at the level of senior civil servants. Time and again we have expressed this view in public. It is my conviction that the elected Chief Executive (Designate) will appreciate this view.

PRESIDENT: Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Yes, Mr President. I was asking whether the Government would work towards, please note the words "work towards", making the Chief Executive (Designate) agree to appointing all Policy Secretaries to their original posts so that they could have a smooth transition. I did not ask the Government to try appreciating the thinking of the Chief Executive (Designate). The crux of the question is whether or not the Government would fight to achieve these goals?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, there are clear provisions contained in the Basic Law on the transition and appointment of principal officials. The stance of the Hong Kong Government in this respect is very clear, it wishes to see that the entire civil service have a smooth transition. We will try our best to express our viewpoint in this regard to both the Chief Executive (Designate) and all those who need to be concerned with the matter.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the main reply, the Secretary for the Civil Service once again mentioned a politically impartial civil service. We talked about this in a relevant panel meeting of the Legislative Council and I want to ask the Government again. To the Hong Kong residents, policy Secretaries are the policy makers and their stance are very clear. How can one say they are "politically impartial"? The reason given by the Government was that they were not aligned with any political group, nor were they political parties. However, in reality, they are the party in power. I hope the Secretary would explain to the public once again. Are those of us not being members of any political groups or parties politically impartial?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, "impartiality" of course is not the same as not taking any position. As a government, it would certainly have its own proposals, policies and stance as it governs. At the time when I explained the term "impartiality" at a meeting of the relevant panel, I was referring to the fact that our Civil Service had all along been making policies on a trans-strata basis in the light of the interests of Hong Kong people as a whole. This is what is meant by "impartiality". I do not want to dwell further on debating the question of "impartiality". Mr President, I do not believe these discussions will bring us to a higher or newer level. Nevertheless, for those who would like to dig further into such explanations, I can recommend to them the articles written by Mr HUNG Ching-tin on the newspaper in the last couple of days ¢w that is to say, if they can comprehend.

Agreement on Trade and Co-operation with European Community

2. MR PAUL CHENG asked: It is learnt that China and Macau signed an agreement on trade and co-operation with the European Union (EU) in 1985 and 1992 respectively and that the Republic of Korea is now negotiating a similar agreement with the EU. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the reasons for the territory not having entered into such an agreement with the EU?

SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President, in managing Hong Kong's external commercial relations, the Government's focus has been put on the multilateral front through the World Trade Organization and the regional front through the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC). Hong Kong's active participation and where appropriate, negotiations, in these organizations have enabled us to secure and further Hong Kong's commercial and economic interests.

On the bilateral front, the Government has concentrated on negotiating agreement in the two specific areas of air services and investment promotion and protection. The Government has so far accorded a low priority to concluding bilateral trade and co-operation agreements because being more general in nature, they are seen to be offering less tangible benefits than specifically targetted agreements. However, I am pleased to inform this Council that the Government has recently started to look into the merits and implications of negotiating and concluding a general agreement on trade and co-operation with the EU. I shall be happy to inform and consult the Legislative Council Trade and Industry Panel on the progress and outcome of our deliberations.

MR PAUL CHENG: Mr President, will the Secretary advise this Council whether she agrees that an agreement on trade and co-operation with the EU would help to build the international investment community's confidence in Hong Kong as a future Chinese Special Administrative Region and that in the Government's proposed review, her department will also look at prospects for developing bilateral co-operation in areas such as small- and medium-sized enterprises, audio-visual industry, environmental technology and perhaps even extending the study to include universities and academic co-operation?

SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President, as I said in my main reply, the Administration is now starting to consider the merits of concluding a bilateral trade and co-operation agreement with the EU. Whether or not such an agreement would indeed help to enhance international confidence in the future Special Administrative Region is one of the things that we will need to consider under the merits consideration.

With regard to the Honourable Member's second question, in the absence of a bilateral trade and co-operation agreement, the Hong Kong Government is co-operating with other trading partners through the APEC umbrella on ways to further co-operate on a bilateral as well as regional basis in areas such as small and medium enterprises, exchange and enhancement of environmental technology as well as audio-visual industry.

Supplementary Labour Scheme

3. MR JAMES TIEN asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, information from the Census and Statistics Department indicates that under the Supplementary Labour Scheme introduced on 1 February this year, the minimum wages for various types of jobs have risen drastically as compared to those for similar types of jobs under the former General Labour Importation Scheme. Many employers in the industrial and commercial sectors cannot afford employing imported labour even though they are unable to recruit local employees. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of:

(a) the average percentage of increase in the minimum wages for the various types of jobs under the Supplementary Labour Scheme as compared to that for the corresponding jobs under the General Labour Importation Scheme, and how this rate of increase compares with the inflation rate in the same period; and

(b) the criteria for determining the minimum wages for the various types of jobs under the Supplementary Labour Scheme; and whether, in determining such wages, consideration has been given to the ability of the employers in various sectors (especially those in small and medium-sized businesses) to afford wages in the present economic downturn?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government's policy on importation of labour is that local workers must be given priority in filling job vacancies available in the job market, and that employers who are genuinely unable to recruit workers locally to fill these job vacancies should be allowed to bring in imported workers.

To safeguard the interests of local workers and to ensure that they will not be displaced by cheap labour from overseas, we have made it a requirement under the Supplementary Labour Scheme that the wages offered to local workers should be set at no less than the latest median monthly wage levels for comparable job titles in the local labour market.

It follows that if the employer is not able to recruit locally, the Scheme requires that the minimum wages to be offered to imported workers should be equivalent to the median wages for the same vacancies at the time of the visa application. This requirement is in compliance with Hong Kong's obligation under International labour Convention No. 97 which stipulates that foreign workers should be subject to no less favourable treatment than that applied to their local counterparts in respect of remuneration and other conditions.

It should be noted that this wage requirement is also included under the previous General labour Importation Scheme, and the Special Labour Importation Scheme for the New Airport and related Projects.

My replies to the specific parts of the question are as follows:

(a) we last invited applications under the General Labour Importation Scheme in early 1994 when the minimum wages for the various jobs were based on the September 1993 wage figures. This Scheme was replaced by the Supplementary Labour Scheme which commenced in February this year and which has been using the September 1995 wage figures in setting the minimum wages for the various types of jobs. Comparing these two sets of figures, the average annual increase in the minimum wages is 9.5%, while the average annual inflation rate in the same period is 8.8%.

(b) The minimum wages for the various jobs under the Supplementary Labour Scheme are set at the same level as the corresponding median wage levels compiled by the Census and Statistics Department at half-yearly intervals. The median wage statistics are computed from the results of the half-yearly Labour Earnings Survey on the actual wage levels of the respective jobs reported by employers, including small and medium-sized businesses.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the industrial and commercial sector agrees absolutely that the employment opportunities in Hong Kong should first be given to local workers. In paragraph 5(a) of the Government's main reply, it was mentioned that comparing the figures of the two labour importation schemes, the rate of increase in the minimum wages is 9.5%, while the inflation rate in the same period is 8.8%. If the Government would really implement the scheme in this manner, the industrial and commercial sector would lend its support. Does the Secretary know that the minimum wage level for telecommunications and postal clerks, which was $7,390 two years ago, has now been set at $9,680 in the Supplementary Labour Scheme, representing an increase of 31% and an average annual rate of increase of 15%, and not 9.5% as stated by the Government? Besides, the minimum wage level for cashiers has been increased from $5,460 to $7,000, representing an increase of 30% and an average annual rate of increase of 15%, which is much higher than the inflation rate of 8.8%. Is the Secretary aware of this situation or is the 9.5% an average figure and the rate of increase for other positions may be smaller?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, first of all, I agree to the last point which Mr TIEN has just made. The 9.5% which I mentioned in the main reply is only the average rate of increase. The actual rate of increase of wages, including that of the median wage level, will certainly be different for different jobs. For some jobs, the rate of increase would exceed 9.5% while that for others would be lower. As I have said very clearly in the main reply, 9.5% is only an average increase. Therefore, although we are certainly aware that the average rate of increase for certain jobs is approaching 15%, that for some others is as low as 6%. These rates of increase, in fact, also reflect the surplus or otherwise, a shortage in the market's labour supply. I would like to emphasize too, that these figures are compiled on the basis of the results of the half-yearly Labour Earnings Survey on actual wages conducted by the Census and Statistics Department.

PRESIDENT: Mr TIEN, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR JAMES TIEN: No.

PRESIDENT: I will put you down for a further supplementary then.

MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, the Secretary replied that the average increase in minimum wage is 9.5%. Would the Secretary further elaborate whether this 9.5% is a simple average or a weighted average based on historical data and why? I am sure that the Secretary understands very well that a simple average and a weighted average have significant difference in terms of the total average.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, this is a simple average and not a weighted average. Since the main question asked about the average rate of increase, I have to give the reply in this way. I agree that this average rate of increase is actually rather meaningless because basically, if there is an application for the importation of foreign labour, we have to consider the current median wage level of the job and set down the minimum wage level accordingly. However, since the question of the Honourable Member asked the average rate of increase, I have to provide an answer to the question faithfully.

PRESIDENT: Mr TANG, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR HENRY TANG: Yes, Mr President, the second part of the question on why the Secretary uses simple rather than the weighted average. The question was originally asked that way, and a simple average cannot reflect the situation as it stands because it is possible that certain positions have never had an importation of labour, so if the percentage of that position were also incorporated, it is diluting the data and not reflecting the true situation.

PRESIDENT: But you are not asking a question, are you? You are expressing a view that to do something else would be more meaningful. So I would simply like to make an observation on the Secretary's remark, as to whether he meant the question was not very meaningful or the answer was not very meaningful!

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, would you like me to answer this question? Just now, I should not have said that this question is meaningless. What I wanted to say was that the average rate of increase of 9.5% or even the weighted average rate of increase could not prove anything. It is because if we are to talk about the rate of increase, we should consider whether the rate of increase of the wage level of the job concerned has increased or reduced. That is all I wanted to explain. If the Honourable Member's question was about the average rate of increase, I would certainly give an answer about the average rate of increase; however, if the question was about the weighted average rate of increase, I would then given an answer about weighted average rate of increase. Nevertheless, even if the weighted average rate of increase were asked, I do not think that would be very meaningful either. As I have said, the present Supplementary Labour Scheme or the General Labour Importation Scheme in the past are basically concerned with specific jobs, we do not recruit workers to come to Hong Kong on the basis of average employment terms.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I hope the Secretary for Education and Manpower could help us understand better, because there is a different between his reply and what Mr James TIEN has asked. Mr James TIEN pointed out that some employers in the industrial and commercial sectors could not afford to employ imported labour even though they were unable to recruit local workers, but the Secretary for Education and Manpower pointed out that according to an actual survey, employers have in effect increased workers' wages by 0.7% on average. Although this rate of increase is pitiably low, it is after all affordable to the employers and they are paying this rate. Could it be said that the employers Mr TIEN mentioned, being not competitive enough to recruit local workers, had wanted to recruit cheap foreign labour, but the Government did not allow them to do so?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, I think that this question is very difficult to answer because this is concerned with the opinion expressed in Mr James TIEN's question and that is Mr TIEN's opinion. I believe I should concentrate on Mr TIEN's question now.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Mr President, the rate of increase of the wage level of local workers was very limited or even negative last year, why is the minimum wage level of the Supplementary Labour Scheme even higher than that of the General Labour Importation Scheme? Besides, how many people have the employers of the industrial and commercial sector employed under the Supplementary Labour Scheme? Is the number lower than that expected by the Government? If so, why?

PRESIDENT: I rule the first part of the supplementary in order. The second part has nothing to do with the original question.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I have stated clearly in the main reply, according to the basic principle of the Supplementary Labour Scheme, employers would only be allowed to import foreign labour if they can prove that they are unable to recruit local workers. Besides, we would also ensure that the remuneration received by the foreign labour would be equivalent to that received by local workers working in similar positions. Therefore, setting the minimum wage level at the median wage level is fully in compliance with this principle. The median wage level is not something created by us without support, it is based on the results of the half-yearly Labour Earnings Survey conducted by the Census and Statistics Department.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Labour Department has announced that until recently, more than 100 applications under the Supplementary Labour Scheme have been approved. However, the Government said that it would review the Scheme only after the quota of 2000 has been reached and also that the minimum wage has been set at a very reasonable level. Can the Secretary tell us whether the majority of the unsuccessful applications were rejected because of the employers' failure to meet the wage requirement set by the Government or because of any other reasons?

PRESIDENT: It is technically outside the scope of the question.

MR JAMES TIEN: Mr President......

PRESIDENT: I stand to be corrected, Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in my original question, I said that employers of the industrial and commercial sector did not apply for the recruitment of imported labour mainly because the minimum wages have risen sharply. But the Government replied that the rate of increase was very moderate. If only slightly more than 100 applications have been approved, that means certainly many applications have not been approved. I therefore asked the Government the reasons why those applications have not been approved, and whether the employers' failure to meet the wage requirement was the reason.

PRESIDENT: Mr TIEN, you had expressed a view in your original question and then from that view you asked two specific questions; the first, having to deal with the average percentage of increase in the minimum wages for various types of jobs and the second, the criteria for determining the minimum wages for the various types of jobs. So on that basis, this supplementary is outside the scope of your original question.

Unidentified Gas Attack

4. MR ALLEN LEE asked (in Cantonese): Incidents involving unidentified gases hitting schools have frequently occurred in recent years, and a similar incident has recently occurred in a school near the Tai Po Industrial Estate. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it has traced the source of the unidentified gas in the above incident, and whether the gas originated from the Tai Po Industrial Estate;

(b) whether it will formulate guidelines to advise the management of schools (including schools for the disabled) on taking emergency evacuation measures effectively in the event of a gas attack; and

(c) what mechanism the Government has to facilitate the payment of financial assistance and compensation to persons who have to be treated in hospital and those who suffer permanent physical injuries due to gas attacks?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,

(a) The source of the unidentified gas in respect of the incident referred to by the Honourable Member could not be established despite a thorough search of the school and the vicinity by the Fire Services Department. There was no evidence to suggest that the gas originated from the Tai Po Industrial Estate.

(b) The Education Department has issued a circular to all schools, including those for the disabled, providing guidance on measures to be taken in the event of gas leaks or reports of unidentified gases or odours. These measures include the prompt removal of pupils from the affected area to a safe place with fresh air, care by a responsible member of staff for pupils not feeling well, and requesting for emergency services. Under these general guidelines to handle emergency situations, school heads are able to exercise their discretion to minimize adverse effect to the pupils while avoiding unnecessary anxiety or alarm.

(c) Like any other patients, persons who suffer from gas attacks and are in financial hardship as a result of hospitalization or permanent physical injuries may apply for Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA). For CSSA recipients, their treatment at public hospitals will be free of charge. Those who suffer permanent physical injuries due to gas attacks resulting in a disability broadly equivalent to 100% loss of earning capacity will be eligible for a Disability Allowance. There are no specific schemes for compensation to be paid to persons who suffered injuries as a result of a gas attack. However, under our legal system, anyone who believes that he has suffered a harm or loss as a result of an act or omission by another person may seek redress in the civil courts.

MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, last week saw the recurrence of an unidentified gas in Tin Shui Wai. As we can tackle a problem at its root if its source were identified, what methods does the Government have to determine the source of the unidentified gas? At present, what scientific measures does the Government have for identifying the source of an unidentified gas?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, there are a range of gas detectors in fire appliances which are sent to incidents where unknown gases are reported.

PRESIDENT: Mr LEE, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, my question concerns the source of the unidentified gas, not the appliances. Does the Government know where the unidentified gas originated from?

PRESIDENT: Mr LEE, could you be more specific ¢w the general causes of such gases or specific locations?

MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Some schools have been attacked by unidentified gases, may I ask the Government whether it can trace the sources of the gases? Are there any scientific methods that can identify these sources?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, obviously a definitive answer can only be given when a question relates to a specific incident. If the Honourable Member is asking whether, in the past, reports of gas had been investigated and we were able to trace or identify what the gas or source was, yes, of course, it has been possible in some cases to do so.

Hospital Specialist Burns Units

5. MR MOK YING-FAN asked (in Cantonese): The Pat Sin Leng hill fire tragedy, which resulted in a number of deaths and critical burns cases, has aroused public concern. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) which public hospitals have specialist burns units to deal specifically with burns cases and how these units operate;

(b) of the number of burns patients who have received treatment, and the number of operations on burns patients in these units from 1993 to 1996; and

(c) of the success rate in the treatment of severely burned patients (with burns up to one-third or more of their bodies) in public hospitals during the same period, and how it compares with the respective success rates in the United States, Britain, Japan and China?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, specialist treatment for burns patients is provided in isolation facilities of seven major acute hospitals, namely, Queen Mary Hospital, Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital, Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Kwong Wah Hospital, Prince of Wales Hospital, Princess Margaret Hospital and Tuen Mun Hospital.

Since the statistics in respect of 1995 are still being finalized, only the numbers of burns patients admitted into public hospitals up to 1994 are available. The relevant figures are 1 910 in 1991, 1 735 in 1992, 1 674 in 1993 and 1 622 in 1994 respectively. On average, about 15% to 20% of these patients would require some form of surgical operations during the acute phase of their injuries.

It will be difficult to ascertain the degree of success achieved by specialist treatment provided for burns patients which is dependent not only on the severity of the injury, but also other factors such as age, location and depth of the burns, inhalation injuries as well as other underlying medical conditions. Furthermore, given the lack of local clinical data on the outcome of treatment for burns patients, it would not be possible to make a direct comparison with other countries.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has basically omitted answering the first part of my question on the operation of the specialist burns units. I therefore hope that the Secretary can give me a relevant reply in writing. Furthermore, in regard to the management of burns patients, many medical practitioners have expressed strong hope for introducing specialist services. Since burns are often easily life threatening, will the Government give positive consideration to the provision of specialist services for burns patients?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, under our current set-up, the Prince of Wales Hospital and the Queen Mary Hospital are the tertiary referral centres for the management of severely burned patients. Unless we plan for over-capacity, there will be situations when a particular hospital could be overwhelmed. Nevertheless, the setting up of a central burns centre with excessive capacity and designated equipment is not cost-effective as both facilities and human resources would be under-utilized most of the time.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has just mentioned the establishment of a burns centre. However, as I understand, there are no medical and nursing staff specializing in burns management stationed in the burns centre on a permanent basis. In case of serious disasters, it is believed that the centre would encounter problems in coping with the situation. Will the Secretary review the operation of the burns centre and station nursing staff specializing in burns management in the burns centre on a permanent basis?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the seven hospitals that I have mentioned in my main reply all contain isolation facilities, having designated teams of staff with the requisite expertise to provide comprehensive services for severely burned patients. A typical team consists of nurses, dieticians, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, doctors, counsellors and is usually led by a specialist who is highly experienced in the management of burns patients. In handling a major burns incident, such as the Pat Sin Range fire, the head office of the Hospital Authority will activate its disaster plan to co-ordinate and pull together resources from all the existing public hospitals, to ensure full collaboration is achieved in the management of a significant number of burns patients.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, will the Secretary inform this Council whether the current service in our public hospitals is adequate to deal with the day-to-day cases of minor or severe burns?

And will the Secretary inform this Council of the availability of contingency measures in cases of crises, for example, when there is a major fire where there could be suddenly many, many more cases than those in the Pat Sin Range incident?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, all hospitals of the Hospital Authority are capable of dealing with minor burns. In respect of a major disaster involving many, many more victims, the head office of the Hospital Authority is able to activate their disaster plan and to co-ordinate all their resources of all the hospitals to manage this disaster. Fortunately, we have not had such an incident in Hong Kong, but if, unfortunately, we do have such an incident, our hospitals are capable of managing such a disaster.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, it seems that in her main reply, the Secretary has not answered part (c) of the Honourable MOK Ying-fan's question because Mr MOK wishes to compare our success rate in the treatment of burns patients with those of neighbouring places. The Government, however, replied that there was no statistics available on the comparison required. Yet, the Government has made some sort of comparison for the success rates in the treatment of other types of diseases such as cancer and lung diseases. Why is it that there are no statistics for comparison for burns cases? I very much hope that the Secretary can tell us why.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, in my main reply, I explained why it is very difficult to ascertain what degree of success can be achieved by the specialist treatment provided for burns patients. The reason for this is that each situation is very different, the severity of the injury of each patient is different. There are factors such as the age of the patient and where the burn has taken place, that is, the location in the body of the burn. In respect of whether it is possible to make a direct comparison with other countries, we have not yet developed local clinical data on the outcome of the treatment. In future, we might be in a position to develop this data, in which case we will be able to make some sort of a comparison with the same sort of data produced by other countries.

PRESIDENT: Miss CHAN, are you claiming that your question has not been answered?

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): I feel that she has, to some extent, finally given some sort of a reply, but I still want to ask ......

PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Miss CHAN, I cannot permit you a further supplementary, or else it might turn into a debate. You might disagree with the answer, but the answer has been given to your supplementary.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, while raising my supplementary question, I have said that I would like the Secretary to give me a written reply in respect of the operation of these units in the relevant hospitals. However, it seems that the Secretary has not replied whether she will do so.

PRESIDENT: Mr MOK Ying-fan, your original question does not contain any part about the operation of such hospitals and the burns units in these hospitals. If you wish to ask that, and if the Secretary does not have the answer now, would the Secretary be prepared to give a written answer?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, may I ask the Member to repeat his question.

PRESIDENT: Mr MOK Ying-fan.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I did ask a question on that. Item (a) of my question relates to which public hospitals have specialist burns units to deal specifically with burns cases and how these units operate.

PRESIDENT: I am sorry. How do these units operate?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I will answer Mr MOK's question in the form of a written reply. (Annex I)

Overnight Bus Parking Spaces

6. MR SAMUEL WONG asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council of:

(a) the respective current shortfalls in overnight bus parking spaces of three bus companies (that is KMB, CMB and Citybus), as well as the respective numbers of buses of these companies which have to be parked on the road overnight at present; and

(b) the reduction in the number of bus parking spaces over the past ten years as a result of the Government permitting bus companies to change the usage of their depots?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, overnight parking for franchised buses is permitted at bus depots, off-street short-term tenancy (STT) sites, bus termini and also on-street. Taking into account these designated locations for overnight parking, Kowloon Motor Bus (KMB), China Motor Bus (CMB) and Citybus all have sufficient numbers of parking spaces to cater for their respective fleet sizes. The details are set out in the Annex to my reply.

Before buses can be parked overnight at bus termini and on roads, the bus companies must first seek the specific approval of the Commissioner for Transport who would consult the relevant district boards before permission is given. The parking of buses overnight at termini and, to a more limited extent, on-street, is, of course, not ideal. However, such arrangements are unavoidable for operational reasons because of the lack of suitable sites for off-street parking in the vicinity. In some ways, the reliance on this arrangement has become even greater because bus companies have implemented new routes and improved frequencies in response to requests from district boards for better services.

Our approach will be to continue to identify and allocate suitable off-street sites for overnight parking. For example, temporary off-street sites have been found for Citybus's fleet and, later this year, about 80 of KMB's buses currently parked on-street in Yuen Long and Tuen Mun will be relocated to a new off-street STT site in Tin Shui Wai. But it has to be recognized that such sites will be in very short supply, particularly in the urban areas where there are other competing and urgent demands for land.

The disposal of bus depots inevitably results in the loss of parking spaces. Over the past 10 years, KMB lost 180 such spaces whilst the corresponding figure for CMB is 60. It should be noted that the bus companies had acquired the depots in question in the open market and permission for their disposal was given because the depots no longer served an operational requirement.

Annex

Bus Parking Spaces for CMB, Citybus and KMB (as at 30 April 1996)

Off-Street Parking Spaces

Company

Fleet Size

(as at end 1995)

At permanent bus depots

(a)

At STT parking sites

(b)

At approved bus termini

(c)

On-street

(d)

Grand Total

(a) + (b) + (c) + (d)

CMB

844

305

350

345

6

1006

Citybus

375

0

155

222

0

377

KMB

3513

1660

687

1185

231

3763

Total

4732

1965

1192

1752

237

5146



(38%)

(23%)

(34%)

(5%)

(100%)

DR SAMUEL WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, as at the present moment, the three bus companies have a total of more than 4 700 buses and almost 40% of these buses have to be parked either at bus termini or on-street, thus leading to various possible problems such as stealing or taking away of buses, and adverse effects on the environment and on our city outlook as well as general cleanliness. Will the Government take active steps to provide more parking sites or depots to the bus companies?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, as I have acknowledged, parking of buses at termini and on-street is not ideal. But the reality of the situation is that the availability of the supply of land must be recognized given, bearing in mind the operational requirements. In fact, although a large percentage of buses are parked on-street and at termini, these are not all located near residential blocks. Some are in places such as Exchange Square, Ocean Park or Kwun Tong Ferry Pier, which is not in the vicinity of residential districts. In total, KMB has 36 bus sites at bus terminals; CMB and Citybus have six and three respectively and they share another eight. Despite this number, in 1995, we have received a total of only 19 complaints pertaining to noise and other nuisances.

So, Mr President, whilst I certainly will try to acquire to obtain more depot sites or STT sites, the reality of meeting operational requirements of parking buses at termini and on-street must be recognized.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Mr President, in view of the increasing number of cross-border direct bus routes, will the Government inform this Council whether it has, in the next few years, any specific measures which can effectively deal with the problem of more and more buses having to park overnight on-street or at other places?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, certainly when new bus routes are approved, we will try and identify and allocate specific parking depots for the buses. For example, in connection with our new bus services for the airport, we are already looking for sites to deal with this service.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, allowing buses to park overnight at bus termini and on-street will in fact cause nuisance to residents, especially when buses are parked in residential areas. Will the Secretary inform this Council whether the Administration would consider the idea of requesting the bus companies to park their buses overnight in industrial areas so as to avoid causing nuisance to the residents?

PRESIDENT: Both supplementaries are a bit marginal, but I will let the Secretary answer them.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, as I have said, obviously if we can avoid parking buses near residential blocks, we shall try to achieve this. But because of operational reasons, such as preventing dead mileage or in the case of buses serving the New Territories where parking spaces must be found near the new towns, the parking of buses at termini and on-street may well be inevitable. But, as I have said, before the Commissioner for Transport approves a specific site, the district boards concerned are fully informed and consulted. As I have said, although we have a vast number of such sites, the total number of complaints, by comparison, bearing in mind the number of bus trips, have been fairly minimal and in granting these sites, we do lay down specific conditions to try and mitigate nuisances which may occur.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Delayed Opening of Lok Ma Chau Public Transport Interchange

7. MR NGAU KAM-CHUEN asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Lok Ma Chau Public Transport Interchange (the Interchange) was completed in April 1995 and scheduled to be brought into use in July of the same year. Although the Transport Department has indicated on two separate occasions that the Interchange would be in use before this Lunar New Year and Easter respectively, this has not materialized. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the reasons for the delay in putting the Interchange in use;

(b) whether the proposed shuttle bus services at the Interchange have been approved by the relevant authorities in China and Hong Kong; and

(c) of the general consultation procedures for such cross-border projects and the time required to complete such procedures?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Chinese): Mr President, the Lok Ma Chau Public Transport Interchange was completed on schedule at the end of August 1995. This Interchange has been built to provide a cross-border shuttle bus service between Lok Ma Chau and Huanggang. It also has facilities to cater for taxis, buses, PLBs as well as private cars.

Under the agreement reached between the Shenzhen People's Municipal Government and the Hong Kong Government, each side is required to appoint an operator who in turn should form a joint-venture company to operate the shuttle bus service. On our part, following a tender exercise, we appointed the Kowloon Motor Bus Company Limited in June 95. Negotiations between KMB and the bus company selected by the Shenzhen side took time and a joint-venture company was formed on 26 January 1996. The shuttle service will commence once certain formalities, such as those in relation to travel documents to be issued to the Chinese drivers, have been completed.

The Joint Working Group on Cross-border Transport Services deals with all cross border transport issues. There is almost daily contact between the border liaison officers on operational matters. Apart from this, we meet with our Shenzhen counterparts on a quarterly basis and the relevant Guangdong provincial authorities on a six-monthly basis. The time required for reaching agreement on specific projects very much depend on the subject matter.

Retail Price of Vehicle Diesel Oil

8. MRS MIRIAM LAU asked (in Chinese): In the last two years, the average import price of light diesel oil stood at about $1.1 per litre, whereas the retail price of vehicle diesel oil has risen from $5.31 per litre in January 1991 to $6.32 per litre in February this year. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it has information showing the reasons for the big rise in the retail price of vehicle diesel oil; and

(b) how it has monitored the extent of each price rise for petroleum products so as to prevent oil companies from setting prices at unreasonable levels?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) The movement of the retail price of diesel oil for vehicles in Hong Kong is affected by the movements of oil prices in the international market, the effects of local inflation on the operating costs of the oil companies, as well as the duty rate. During the period from January 1994 to March 1996, the retail price of diesel oil for vehicles increased by 16% from $5.31 to $6.16 per litre. Over the same period, the import price of diesel, the Consumer Price Index(A) and duty rate rose by about 15%, 19% and 28% respectively. (The retail price of diesel had gone down to $6.16 per litre in March 1996 from $6.32 per litre in February 1996.)

(b) The increase in retail price has remained in line with the increase in costs. Five companies are operating in the market and are evidently competing with one another. The Government believes that market forces can be relied upon to ensure healthy competition among the oil companies supplying diesel oil for vehicles and that competition is the best safeguard against unreasonable price increases.

Language Proficiency of Jurors

9. MR AMBROSE LAU asked (in Chinese): According to the findings of a survey, local jurors have little or no knowledge of the legal terminology mentioned in a judge's summing up to the jury or the medical terminology used in inquiries held by coroners. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of cases in which a new jury had to be empanelled due to the low standard of English of the jurors, with a breakdown of such cases by type, in the past three years; and

(b) whether it will review the language proficiency required of jurors so as to ensure that trials can be conducted fairly?

CHIEF SECRETARY (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) Section 4 of the Jury Ordinance (Cap.3) sets out the qualifications of a juror, including , inter alia, a knowledge of the English language sufficient to enable him to understand the evidence of witnesses, the address of Counsel and the Judge's summing up. The Judiciary has advised that if the understanding of certain terms is material to a trial or an inquest, the judge or the coroner wil normally direct such terms to be explained to the jurors and explain the legal terms himself in his summing up. The Judiciary has no record of any cases where a new jury has had to be empanelled as a result of the jurors' poor standard of English.

(b) The Judiciary is committed to put in place a framework which enables Chinese, along with English, to be used in all judicial proceedings in Hong Kong before 1 July 1997. In the light of this commitment, the need to maintain the proficiency in English now required of jurors is under review.

Utilization of Public Libraries

10. DR DAVID LI asked: It has been reported that a recent survey by the Hong Kong Development and Strategic Research Centre shows that a lack of services is the reason given by most people for making little or no use of public libraries. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number and locations of public libraries in the territory as well as the services they provide;

(b) whether any survey has been conducted to find out if the variety of books in public libraries is sufficient to meet the demand of users; if so, what the results are; if not, why not; and

(c) whether it will consider extending the opening hours of public libraries at weekends so as to enable the working population to utilize the library services?

SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President,

(a) The Urban Council currently operates a total of 33 libraries including one central library, one specialized Arts Library, 15 district libraries, 12 small libraries and four mobile libraries in the urban areas. The Regional Council operates a total of 25 libraries including three central libraries, seven district libraries, 12 small libraries and three mobile libraries in the New Territories. The number and locations of the two Municipal Councils' libraries are shown in Annexes I and II.

As regards the services provided by these libraries, they include:

(i) Reading, listening and viewing services

The two Councils provide a combined stock of more than 5.55 million items of library materials in various forms, including books, newspapers and periodicals, audio-cassettes, audio compact-discs, video discs, video cassettes, microforms, computer programmes, Compact Disc-Read Only Memory (CD-ROM), Compact Disc-Interactive (CD-I), educational kits and maps to meet the varied needs of the people of Hong Kong.

(ii) Lending services

Lending services for adults and children are available in all libraries except the Arts Library where the materials are for reference only. In addition to books, audio-cassettes and back issues of periodicals are available for home lending in central and district libraries. In 1995, a total of 21.44 million items of library materials were borrowed for home use.

(iii) Newspapers and periodicals services

Over 10 000 current titles of local and overseas newspapers and periodicals are subscribed by the libraries. The central libraries, City Hall Public Library and Arts Library also house back files of a large number of newspapers and periodicals in the original and microform format for readers to make retrospective searches. In 1995, a total of 1.91 million back issues of newspapers and periodicals were referred to in the two Councils' library systems.

(iv) Block loan services

The libraries provide regular block loans of books, audio-cassettes and back issues of periodicals to non-profit-making organizations, rehabilitation and penal institutions and homes for the aged and the physically handicapped.

(v) Outreach programmes

Outreach programmes form an integral part of the public library services. Educational and recreational programmes such as book and art exhibitions, video shows and organized group library visits are frequently organized. In addition, the libraries also take an active role in promoting literary arts and have organized a number of literary arts awards such as the Awards for Creative Writing in Chinese, Poetry Writing Competition and the Competition on Story Writing in Chinese for Students to arouse public interest and awareness in this regard. On average, some 21 500 outreach events are organized by the two public library systems each year, attracting a total attendance of about 6.5 million per annum.

(vi) Reference and information services

Reference library services are provided in the central libraries, City Hall Public Library and the Arts Library. These libraries provide comprehensive collections of reference materials and a number of special collections. In addition, they play an active role in the dissemination of information and the handling of public enquiries. In 1995, a total of some 490 000 reference enquiries had been handled whilst a total of 2.43 million items of reference materials had been referred to in the libraries.

In addition, the libraries also provide students' study room facilities, services for the handicapped, microform services and copying services for the public.

(b) The Urban Council has conducted two benchmark surveys on its services in 1990 and 1992. The surveys have, inter alia, looked into the public's reception of the library services. The surveys have revealed that the public is generally satisfied with the library services as the satisfaction rate increased from 77% in 1990 to 84% in 1992. In addition, the Urban Council has commissioned an independent institution to conduct a comprehensive survey on the Urban Council's library services in June 1996 to identify the needs of library users and non-users for the preparation of its Five-Year Plan for further development.

Similar benchmark surveys have been conducted by the Regional Council and the result of the public reception of the libraries services is also positive as the satisfaction rate has risen from 60% in 1991 to 68% in 1993. The Regional Council has also planned to conduct a special public opinion survey on the library services in July this year. This survey will enable the Council to identify the needs of the public at large and to further improve its library services provided to the public.

(c) The Urban Council's central and district libraries at present open seven days a week for 57 hours, with one late night closing at 9 pm on Friday. The Regional Council's central and district libraries open six days a week for 56 hours with a closing day on either Monday or Thursday. All Municipal Councils' libraries are open from 9 am or 10 am until 5 pm and 1 pm on Saturdays and Sundays respectively. The two Municipal Councils are currently reviewing the opening hours of their libraries as well as other library services with a view to better serving the community. The feasibility of extending library opening hours at weekends will be carefully considered.

Annex (total 3 pages)

Dental Care for the Elderly

11. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): With regard to a recent study by the Faculty of Dentistry of the Hong Kong University which revealed that up to 70% of the elderly are not provided with dental treatment, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) why no public dental services are specifically provided for the elderly; and

(b) whether it will review the demand of the elderly for dental services and consider providing dental services in health centres for the elderly; if not, why not ?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) The Government's policy on dental service to the public is to provide preventive services such as the School Dental Care Service and promotive services such as oral health education. Curative services are limited to persons in need of emergency treatment, to specified special needs groups and to in-patients in public hospitals whose dental treatment forms an essential part of their medical treatment. For the financially disadvantaged elderly who are eligible for public assistance, they can seek treatment at the non-profit making dental clinics designated by the Social Welfare Department (SWD) and fees can be reimbursed through the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) scheme. The elderly can also visit private dental clinics but only the amount of fee equivalent to that charged by the SWD designated clinics for the same treatment will be reimbursed.

(b) At present, Government does not plan to review its policy on the provision of dental services. Accordingly, there are no plans for the provision of dental services in health centres for the elderly.

Unlicensed Storage of Dangerous Goods

12. MR IP KWOK-HIM asked (in Chinese): It has been reported that, in the course of investigating a fire which broke out in a flat in the Western District last month, the Police had discovered dangerous goods being stored in the flat without licence. As the incident has aroused widespread public concern, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of cases concerning the storage of dangerous goods without licence in each of the past three years;

(b) what measures are in place to prevent people from storing dangerous goods without licence; and

(c) whether it has any plans to review or amend in the near future the existing system for regulating the issue of licences for storing dangerous goods?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese):

(a) The number of cases concerning the illegal storage of dangerous goods prosecuted under the Dangerous Goods Ordinance in the past three years is -

Year

No. of Cases

1995

105

1994

84

1993

129

(b) The Fire Services Department, as the licensing authority, will inspect all dangerous goods stores before a licence is issued or renewed to ensure that these stores are maintained to the required standards. The Department will also see if there is any illegal storage of dangerous goods during its inspections of premises, such as restaurants, schools and places of public entertainment, applying for other types of licences.

To enhance awareness of safe use and storage of dangerous goods, fire prevention campaigns, visits and talks are regularly conducted by the Department. It also has a 24-hour hot line to handle complaints concerning dangerous goods.

(c) There are no plans at present to review or amend the existing licensing system on the storage of dangerous goods.

Jockey Club Funding of Social Activities under Government Purview

13. DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the amount of donation by the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club (RHKJC) for funding social activities (for example, education and sports) for which the Government is responsible in each of the past three years; and

(b) of the measures in place to monitor the social activities funded by the donation of the RHKJC and for which the Government is responsible; and what the details of such measures are?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) By convention, every year the Governor recommends to the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club (RHKJC) a list of projects to be funded by them ¢w this has been informally referred to as the annual "Governor's Shopping List" exercise. The Secretary for Health and Welfare vets the large number of initial applications and recommends a shortlist to the Governor. In the past three years (the RHKJC's financial year runs from 1 July to 30 June), the following amounts have been allocated to projects through this exercise:

1992-93 $88 million

1993-94 $75 million

1994-95 $78 million

According to its Annual Reports, these sums represent about 7% of the total charitable donations made by the RHKJC over this period. On donations made outside the "Shopping List" exercise, the RHKJC consults the Government to ensure that the RHKJC's allocation of funds for major charitable and community projects is in keeping with the interest and expectations of the public. Active Government support is required in cases where projects would necessitate public expenditure (whether capital or recurrent) in order to reach fruition.

(b) Once the RHKJC has approved the allocation of funds to organizations successful in their "Shopping List" bids, the Policy Branches concerned monitor the organizations to ensure that the donations are spent appropriately and in a timely manner.

RTHK Air Time for Preparatory Committee

14. MISS EMILY LAU asked: It is learnt that one of the items in the list of requests for assistance from the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Preparatory Committee (PC) to the Administration is a request for Radio Television Hong Kong (RTHK) air time to broadcast programmes about the work of the PC. Will the Administration inform this Council:

(a) of the policy regarding the allocation of RTHK's air time for broadcast on radio and television;

(b) whether the Administration will comply with the PC's request; and

(c) whether the policy referred to in (a) above prohibits the use of the air time for broadcasting political propaganda; if so, how the Administration will ensure that this policy is adhered to?

SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, the licences of commercial television broadcasters make provision for the broadcasting of government programmes at the direction of the Broadcasting Authority, subject to the time limits set out in section 8A (which is annexed) of the Television Ordinance. The present practice is that RTHK uses this facility to provide programmes which inform, educate and entertain Hong Kong people. In doing so, RTHK exercises editorial independence in deciding on the nature and content of the programmes it produces.

In addition, the licences of the commercial television broadcasters also make provision for the broadcasting of Announcements in the Public Interest (API), subject to the time limits set out in their licences. These APIs carry messages from either government departments or non-governmental organizations, such as the Red Cross or the Community Chest.

As regards radio, RTHK exercises editorial independence in planning and producing its own radio programmes. The commercial radio stations are required under their licensing conditions to broadcast APIs supplied by the Government and non-governmental organizations. RTHK also broadcasts such APIs.

The Preparatory Committee has requested the Government's assistance in providing them with television and radio air time. We have explained to the Preparatory Committee Secretariat that to enable us to take forward our consideration of their request, we would need more information from them as regards their proposal. The Administration will consider the Preparatory Committee's request on the basis of existing broadcasting legislation and policy.

Regulation 7 of the Commercial Television (Advertising) Regulations provides that no advertisement of a political nature shall be broadcast. As for radio, paragraph 8(m) of the Radio Code of Practice on Advertising Standards similarly provides that no advertisement of a political nature shall be broadcast by a licensee, except with the prior approval of the Broadcasting Authority. RTHK does not carry advertising.

Annex

8A. Restriction in respect of commercial television broadcasting

(i) In the case where material, pursuant to a condition attached to a commercial television broadcasting licence under section 8(s)(b), is required to be broadcast at any time between the hours of 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. in any period from Monday to Friday inclusive, it shall not, without the consent of the commercial television broadcasting licensee concerned, on any day either exceed, or exceed in aggregate, 30 minutes in duration.

(ii) The periods during which broadcasting material, pursuant to a condition attached to a commercial television broadcasting licence under section 8(2)(b), is required to be broadcast shall in aggregate not exceed any of the following ¢w

(a) 2 1/2 hours in any period of 24 hours commencing at 6 a.m.;

(b) 2 1/2 hours in the 15 hours between the hours of 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. in any period from Monday to Friday inclusive in any week;

(c) in case the programme service is a Chinese service, 12 hours in any week; and

(d) in case the programme service is an English service, 6 hours in any week.

Fire Prevention on Ferries

15. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the fire prevention facilities currently installed on the passenger ferries of the Hongkong and Yaumati Ferry Company Limited, the Star Ferry Company Limited, and the other locally registered ferries on the Hong Kong/China and Hong Kong/Macau routes; and when the standards of such fire prevention facilities were first prescribed by the Government;

(b) how the authorities concerned ensure that the fire prevention installations on such ferries meet the standards prescribed by the Government; and whether any ferry companies have been prosecuted for breach of the standards, if so, the penalty imposed; and

(c) whether it will review the current standards of fire prevention facilities applicable to ferries; if so, when the review will be conducted; if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Chinese): Mr President, the legislation covering fire prevention facilities on the passenger ferries of the Hongkong and Yaumati Ferry Company Limited and the Star Ferry Company Limited, viz. locally licensed ferries, are different from those for Hong Kong Registered passenger craft on the Hong Kong/China and Hong Kong/Macau routes. The former are governed by local legislation and the latter are governed by international conventions and codes developed by the International Maritime Organization (IMO). The answer is therefore given in two parts.

(i) Locally Licensed Ferries

(a) The provisions for fire appliances on board licensed ferry vessels are prescribed under the Merchant Shipping (Fire Appliances) Regulation (Cap. 369) which came into operation in 1969. It stipulates that fire pumps, fire mains, hydrants, hoses, nozzles and fire extinguishers shall be provided on board ships. Moreover, for certain types of passenger vessels, such as triple deckers, catamarans and so on, engine rooms are required to be provided with fixed fire extinguishing installations.

(b) Before a new vessel is licensed, Marine Department will carry out a survey to ensure that the vessel complies with the relevant safety requirements including those relating to fire prevention facilities. Thereafter, the vessel will be thoroughly inspected annually for the renewal of licence. Moreover, patrol officers of the Marine Department will conduct random spot checks on ferry vessels. Prosecution will be instigated if deficiencies are found. So far no prosecution action has been taken on these ferries for contravention of the requirements.

(c) Safety standards of local vessels are at present being reviewed in consultation with the industry. The review of regulations relating to fire appliances is scheduled to commence in the second half of this year.

(ii) Hong Kong registered passenger craft on the Hong Kong/China and Hong Kong/Macau routes

(a) Currently, there are two conventional passenger ships plying on these routes and the other vessels on these routes are high speed craft of light construction, which are also termed as dynamically supported craft (DSC).

The requirements for fire prevention facilities on these passenger craft are governed by the Safety of Life at Sea (IMO) Convention which has been implemented in Hong Kong by:

(i) Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Fire Protection) (Ships Built Before 25 May 1980) Regulations 1991;

(ii) Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Fire Appliances) (Ships Built On or After 25 May 1980 but Before 1 September 1984) Regulations 1991;

(iii) Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Fire Protection) (Ships Built On or After 1 September 1984) Regulations 1991;

(iv) Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Passenger Ship Construction) (Ships Built Before 1 September 1984) Regulations 1991; and

(v) Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Passenger Ship Construction and Survey) (Ships Built On or After 1 September 1984) Regulations 1991.

All the above Regulations are made under the Merchant Shipping (Safety) Ordinance (Cap. 369) and were enacted in 1991. The Regulations specify the requirements for structural fire protection, prevention of fire spread through ventilation system, fixed fire detection and extinguishing systems, restriction on the use of low flash point fuel, fire patrol, fire pumps, fire mains, portable fire extinguishers, fire fighting gear, fire control plans and so on.

Moreover, in view of the special design of DSC, IMO adopted a Code of Safety for Dynamically Supported Craft (DSC Code) in 1977 specifying safety standards for DSC. At present, the Code, which sets out the requirements on the design and construction of DSC, is applied administratively in Hong Kong. Regarding fire prevention facilities in particular, the Code stipulates requirements covering similar aspects as those for passenger craft, but differing in details to suit the design features of DSC.

(b) The design features of a passenger craft are examined by Marine Department and confirmed to be in compliance with the requirements before construction of the vessel is commenced. It will then be inspected during and upon completion of construction before it enters into service. Once in service, annual surveys will be carried out to ensure that the structural details and equipment are maintained in satisfactory condition. Further spot checks are conducted to ensure compliance with the requirements. With these measures in place, we can confirm that these passenger craft maintain a very high safety standard and so far no prosecution action has been taken.

(c) In recognition of the growth in size and types of high speed craft and to reflect the improvements of maritime safety standards since 1977, the International Code of Safety for High Speed Craft (HSC Code) was developed and has recently been adopted by the Member States of IMO to replace the DSC Code. The Code sets out the safety standards regarding the construction of high speed craft, the equipment to be provided and the conditions for their operation and maintenance. Necessary legislation to implement the HSC Code in Hong Kong is now under preparation and is targeted to be enacted within this year. In the meantime, with the full co-operation of the craft operators, the requirements of this Code are being implemented administratively and the very high standard continues to be maintained.

Maintenance of Private Dangerous Slopes

16. MR AMBROSE LAU asked (in Chinese): It has been reported recently in the press that maintenance works are being carried out on some 160 private dangerous slopes, and that such works will not be completed before the coming rainy season. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council of the emergency measures that will be taken before the onset of the rainy season, so as to reduce the potential hazards of these slopes?

SECRETARY FOR WORKS (in Chinese): Mr President, the duty to maintain private slopes rests with the owners. When the Buildings Department (BD) issues a Dangerous Hillside Order, the owner is normally required to complete certain works within specified time limits including the appointment of an authorized person or consultant. A reasonable time limit will be imposed in cognizance of the scope and complexity of various works involved. Permanent civil engineering works of this nature comprising the investigation, design and construction phases will normally take two to three years to complete. Where circumstances warrant, temporary protective works may also be required within a relatively short period of time before the commencement of permanent works. In adverse times where adequate safeguards cannot be taken promptly, it may be necessary in exceptional cases to temporarily evacuate residents and close the affected buildings. Warning notices will also be posted at conspicuous positions on site to keep people away from the affected area when BD staff serve such an Order.

The authorized person and/or the consultant appointed by the owner is required to be responsible for taking precautionary measures and giving warning of impending danger prior to completion of permanent works. The precautionary measures may include the installation of instrumentation for close monitoring of slope stability, the protection of exposed slope works, the provision of temporary surface drains and the maintenance of these systems in good working order. In this connection, with the onset of the rainy season this year a reminder has recently been sent to the professionals concerned to draw attention to the need to take appropriate measures as mentioned so as to ensure safety of the slopes concerned.

In the event that the owner fails to comply with the requirements under an Order, BD will appoint a consultant to proceed with the works in his default. BD is also empowered to carry out emergency work deemed necessary to obviate any imminent danger of slope failure. Currently, some 35% of these private slope Orders are in default by owners and are now under the control of geotechnical consultants appointed by BD.

In the unfortunate event of a landslip on a private slope, the emergency response capability of the works Group is available to assist as if it were a public slope. Key departments such as Civil Engineering, Highways, Drainage Services, Electrical and Mechanical Services and Architectural Services all have contingency plans to set up control centres in times of emergency to liaise with Police and Fire Services to ensure that technical assistance is provided as soon as possible.

Recovery of Debts from Credit Card Referees

17. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): At present, when credit card users or loan borrowers default on repayment, some banks and finance companies' make enquiries or seek to recover the debts from their referees, thus causing nuisance to the referees. In reply to a question in this Council in January this year, the Government stated that the matter would be studied by a Working Party to be formed by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority and the banking industry associations to develop a "Banking Code of Practice". In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) when such study will be completed and its recommendations implemented; and

(b) whether, in studying the matter, consideration will be given to:

(i) requiring applicants to produce their referees' written consent as well as requiring banks and finance companies to contact the referees to verify their consent; if not, why not;

(ii) stipulating the provisions concerning the responsibilities of referees and requiring banks and finance companies to inform referees of such provisions in writing; if not, why not; and

(iii) requiring banks or finance companies to inform the referees concerned in writing when credit card users or loan borrowers become insolvent and have disappeared, and to refrain from recovering the debts from the referees or passing on the personal data of the referees to debt collecting companies, if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) The Code of Banking Practice (the Code) is expected to be completed by the end of 1996. In the meantime, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) has already taken steps to address some of the issues before the publication of the Code. These include:

(i) issuing a letter in January 1996 to the banking industry associations to remind authorized institutions (AIs) under the Banking Ordinance that they should satisfy themselves that applicants for personal loans or credit cards have obtained the prior consent of the referees before the latters' names are entered into the application forms;

(ii) establishing a complaint hotline on 22 April 1996 so that the HKMA can monitor closely the propriety of the debt recovery actions of agencies employed by AIs and, if necessary, follow up with individual institutions to rectify any weaknesses in their management of debt collection agencies; and

(iii) issuing a letter on 22 April 1996 to the banking industry associations to stress that the employment of debt collection agencies which use improper means to recover debts is unacceptable and the need for AIs to exercise strict control over their agencies.

The HKMA will closely monitor the complaints received through the complaint hotline. If it appears that there is a significant number of legitimate complaints, further action to restrict the use of debt collection agencies will be considered. Furthermore, in the light of public concern, the Working Group on the Code of Banking Practice (Working Group) will consider whether the sections of the Code on referees and debt collection agencies should be prepared and issued in advance of the rest of the Code.

(b) The Working Group will give due consideration to the specific points referred to in part (b) of the question in developing the Code:

(i) the Administration supports the principle that referees' consent must be obtained before their names are entered into the application forms as set out in HKMA's letters to the banking industry associations in January 1996. The means of obtaining such consent will be further examined in the context of the Code, taking into account the need to strike a balance between the need to verify such consent and the operational efficiency of institutions and cost implications for customers;

(ii) if a referee has not entered into a formal contractual agreement with the lender to guarantee the liabilities of the borrower or cardholder, the referee has no legal obligation in respect of the borrower's liabilities towards the lender. The Working Group will consider recommending AIs to inform referees in writing of this basic principle and other rights and responsibilities of referees;

(iii) AIs or debt collection agencies have no right to recover the debt from the referee unless the latter has taken on the role of a guarantor. The Administration supports in principle the suggestion that AIs should not pass information about referees to debt collection agents. This issue will be considered in detail by the Working Group together with the suggestion that AIs should inform referees in case of default by the borrower or the cardholder.

Exchange of BOC Banknotes in Taiwan

18. DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK asked (in Chinese): At the time when the Bank of China started to issue Hong Kong dollar banknotes, there were reports that such banknotes could not be exchanged for the local currency in some places in Europe and America. Moreover, during a recent trip to Taiwan, I personally experienced that Hong Kong dollar banknotes issued by the Bank of China were not exchangeable in banks and hotels in Taiwan. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the reasons why Hong Kong dollar banknotes issued by the Bank of China are not exchangeable in Taiwan and whether the circulation of such banknotes in Europe and America has encountered similar situation; if so, what remedial measures have been taken by the Government in this regard?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Mr President, Hong Kong dollar bank notes are legal tender in Hong Kong. The acceptance by a person of Hong Kong dollar bank notes in a place outside Hong Kong, whether for conversion into local currency or in settlement of a debt denominated in that currency, is a commercial decision by the person concerned. It is not unusual that bank notes issued by one place are not accepted in foreign countries. Like other governments, the Administration has no authority to compel a person in foreign countries to accept its domestic currency for such purposes.

The Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) has not received any report on incidents referred to in the question. The HKMA and the note-issuing banks have been active in explaining to those who are interested, both local and overseas, the arrangements for the issue of Hong Kong dollar bank notes, including the United States dollar backing for such notes in the Exchange Fund and the issue of Hong Kong dollar bank notes by the Bank of China since May 1994, and the procedures adopted by note-issuing banks for the return of Hong Kong dollar bank notes for value.

We are aware that the three note-issuing banks, including the Bank of China, have jointly produced a brochure illustrating the types of Hong Kong bank notes in issue. These brochures are distributed to banks abroad.

ICAC's Proposal on Embracing Stock Exchange into Ambit

19. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): With regard to the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC)'s proposal to bring the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong Limited (the Exchange) within the jurisdiction of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the reasons for the ICAC putting forward such a proposal at this time;

(b) whether the scope of the proposed inclusion of the Exchange will cover the regulation of the staff, council members, members of various standing committees as well as individual and corporate members of the Exchange; and

(c) of the progress of the discussion between the ICAC and the Exchange on the proposal?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) In 1994, the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong requested the Corruption Prevention Department of the ICAC to study the work of its Listing Division, Finance and Operations Services Division and Compliance Division. The studies were completed in late 1995. The reports of the studies confirmed that there were no major problems in the SEHK procedures. In endorsing the reports, however, the Corruption Prevention Advisory Committee noted the Exchange's statutory monopoly of securities trading in Hong Kong and its crucial role for the investing public. The Committee therefore recommended that the Exchange be included in the Schedule of public bodies to the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (the Ordinance) so that the Corruption Prevention Department of the ICAC could initiate studies on all other procedures of the Exchange with a view to giving corruption prevention advice where appropriate, notwithstanding that the ICAC has always received the fullest co-operation in its systems audit work for the Exchange in the past.

(b) and (c)

The Exchange has sought clarification from the ICAC on whether the statutory definition of "public servants" in Section 2 of the Ordinance would include staff and all the various categories of membership of the Exchange if the Exchange were listed as a public body under the Ordinance. In particular, legal advice is being sought as to whether a broker member of the Exchange who is not an agent of the Exchange in the ordinary course of business would be regarded as a public servant under the Ordinance. We understand that the Exchange will take a decision on ICAC's proposal in the light of further clarification and legal advice referred to above.

Correctional Services Department Staff Gambling on Duty

20. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of Correctional Services Department (CSD) staff who were disciplined in the past three years for gambling among themselves or gambling with prisoners while on duty and of the penalties imposed on such staff; and

(b) of the monitoring measures in place to eradicate the problem of Correctional Services Department staff gambling while on duty?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): Mr President,

(a) In the past three years, we have had no cases of Correctional Services Department staff having been disciplined for gambling, either among themselves or with prisoners while on duty.

(b) There are adequate monitoring procedures in the CSD to prevent all kinds of illicit activity including gambling. These include security controls, background checks, proper supervision and interviews as necessary.

BILLS

First Reading of Bills

GAS SAFETY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1996

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1996

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

ESTATE DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

STAMP DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

MOTOR VEHICLES (FIRST REGISTRATION TAX) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

AIR PASSENGER DEPARTURE TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

BETTING DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1996

Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).

Second Reading of Bills

GAS SAFETY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Gas Safety Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I move that the Gas Safety (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read a Second time.

The Gas Safety Ordinance enables the Gas Authority (in this case the Director of Electrical and Mechanical Services) to enter and inspect fuel gas installations, such as gas works, high pressure gas pipes and gas pressure-regulating and storage facilities, and he does so annually. If the inspector finds any faults during an inspection, an improvement notice can be issued directing that they be remedied within a certain period.

The Bill proposes that gas installation owners should have a statutory obligation to ensure that their installations are maintained and operated safely and that they are inspected periodically by a competent person. This will ensure that the owner does not wait until the Gas Authority's inspector points out faults before performing maintenance work.

The Gas Authority will specify how often owners should arrange for a competent person to inspect different types of installations, examine the inspection findings and issue improvement notices when necessary.

The Bill will not only improve the safety of gas installations but also give the Gas Authority stronger powers to deal with any installation deemed to be unsafe. The Bill will enable the Gas Authority to effect remedial work himself if necessary or decommission the installation until it is made safe. The overall safety level of gas installations is good and decommissioning of an installation by the Gas Authority would only happen in unusual or extreme cases. It will be an offence to operate an installation that has been decommissioned by the Gas Authority. Expenses incurred by the Gas Authority in doing remedial work on an installation or decommissioning it will be recoverable from the person concerned as a civil debt due to the Government.

The proposals in the Bill will apply equally to fuel gas installations owned by registered gas companies, the Government and numerous institutional, commercial and industrial private sector establishments such as schools, power companies, private housing developments, restaurants and factories.

The Bill also amends the Gas Safety (Gas Supply) Regulations to enable the Gas Authority to prohibit disposable liquefied petroleum gas containers which he considers to be prejudicial to public safety.

Experience has shown that accidents with disposable LPG containers which have no valve to automatically close off the gas when the container is disconnected from a appliance often result in the user sustaining burns. These containers are of the type used with camping stoves. As the market will be adequately supplied with camping gas containers equipped with a closing off valve, the Gas Authority proposes, in due course, to prohibit the supply of those without a valve, in the interest of public safety.

The Bill also enables the transfer of responsibility for the examination of gasholders from the Labour Department to the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department, so that all responsibilities relating to safety of gasholders will be consolidated under one authority.

Mr President, I commend this Bill to the Council.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Inland Revenue Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Inland Revenue (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the second time.

This is the first of ten Bills which I will introduce this afternoon to give effect to the revenue proposals in this year's Budget.

The Bill now before Members seeks to increase salaries tax allowances as announced in the Budget, to introduce a new allowance for maintaining a dependent brother or sister, to provide a deduction for taxpayers to claim fees for attending employment-related training courses at qualifying institutions, and to introduce a specific allowance for hotels refurbishment expenditure. Let me now briefly explain the concessions.

First, the Bill seeks to increase the various salaries tax allowances. Specifically, the basic and married person's allowances will be increased by 13.9%. The first and second child allowance and the allowance for the third to ninth child will be increased by 11.4% and 13.6% to $24,500 and $12,500 respectively. The basic and additional allowances for parents and grandparents will be increased by 11.4% and 16.7% to $24,500 and $7,000 respectively while those for single parent and disabled dependant will be increased by 12.5% and 36.4% to $45,000 and $15,000 respectively.

Secondly, the Bill seeks to introduce a new allowance of $24,500 which can be claimed by a taxpayer if he or she maintains an unmarried brother or sister who, in any time in the year of assessment, was:

(a) under the age of 18;

(b) of or over the age of 18 but under 25 and receiving full time education; or

(c) of or over the age of 18 and was, by reason of physical or mental disability, incapacitated for work.

Moreover, the disabled dependant allowance of $15,000 will also be extended to include a dependent brother or sister who is disabled.

Thirdly, the Bill seeks to introduce a new deduction up to a maximum of $12,000 a year to allow taxpayers to claim fees for employment-related training courses attended at qualifying institutions. This win help to upgrade the skill of the workforce. The deduction will apply to a course of education undertaken to gain or maintain qualifications for use in any employment that is provided by a university, university college, technical college or other qualifying place of education, or a training or development course provided by a trade, professional or business association for its members. Courses provided by overseas institutions of the above nature including long distance courses will also be acceptable. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue will publish an information pamphlet to explain the details to taxpayers.

Finally, the Bill seeks to introduce a specific profits tax allowance to enable hotels to amortise refurbishment expenditure over a five-year period using an annual 20 per cent write-off. This recognises the fact that refurbishments have only a limited life in the case of hotels which have to be renovated from time to time to maintain quality and standards.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Inland Revenue Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to apply a concessionary tax rate of 50% of the normal profits tax rate to trading profits and interest income derived from certain debt instruments issued in Hong Kong. To qualify for the concession, the debt instrument has to satisfy the following criteria:

First, it has to be lodged with and cleared by the Central Moneymarket Unit operated by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA);

Secondly, it has a rating acceptable to the HKMA from a credit rating agency recognised by the HKMA;

Thirdly, it has an original maturity of not less than five years;

Fourthly, it has a minimum denomination of $500,000; and

Lastly, it is issued to the public of Hong Kong.

The concession will help to attract overseas issuers to Hong Kong, enlarge our debt market and enhance our competitiveness vis-a-vis other financial centres in the region.

The Bill also seeks to empower the Financial Secretary to exempt by Order in the Gazette an issuer from the credit rating or the $500,000 minimum denomination requirement. The intention is to provide exemption to statutory bodies owned by the Government. We have no doubt about the credit standing of these bodies and there is no need to require an explicit rating for their debt issues. We have also encouraged these bodies to issue lower denomination paper so as to improve small investors' access to high quality Hong Kong dollar debt securities. It would therefore be appropriate to exempt these bodies from the minimum denomination requirement. Any Order made by the Financial Secretary to provide such an exemption is a piece of subsidiary legislation and will be subject to scrutiny by this Council in the normal manner.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Inland Revenue Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to include specific exclusions from profits tax liability for certain income derived by non-residents from Hong Kong share trading transactions and bona fide offshore funds managed in Hong Kong. It also seeks to exclude stock brokers and the managers of offshore funds from potential profits tax liability in respect of share trading and fund investment profits derived by non-residents from whom they act as agents. The amendments in fact reflect the existing practices and seek to provide greater certainty to the relevant areas in the legislation. They will help to enhance Hong Kong's status as an international financial centre.

The opportunity is also taken in this exercise to amend the legislation in-order to provide equal tax treatment to Hong Kong and non-Hong Kong stocks in stock borrowing and lending transactions. Under existing legislation, profits tax concessions proposed to promote such transactions apply only to Hong Kong stocks. The Bill seeks to extend the concession to non-Hong Kong stocks transactions as specified by the Commissioner of Inland Revenue.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

BUSINESS REGISTRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Business Registration Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Business Registration (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to raise the maximum average monthly turnover below which businesses are exempt from payment of business registration fees. For the sale of goods, the level is raised by 100% from $15,000 to $30,000. For those providing a service, the level is raised by 150% from $4,000 to $10,000.

The Bill also seeks to transfer minor regulation making power under Business Registration Ordinance from the Governor in Council to the Secretary for the Treasury. This Council would still be able to scrutinize any regulation made under the Ordinance, in the usual way.

Mr President, with these remarks, l commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

ESTATE DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Estate Duty Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Estate Duty (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill before Members seeks to adjust the schedule of asset value for the purpose of assessing estate duty. Specifically it increases, from $6 million to $6.5 million, the level below which no duty is payable and widens the duty band widths of the two marginal duty bands from $1.0 million to $1.5 million. Therefore estate duty will be payable at 6% on estates of value between $6.5 million and $8.0 million; 12% in respect of value between $8.0 million and $9.5 million; and 18% in respect of value over $9.5 million.

The opportunity is also taken to transfer minor statutory powers of the Governor in Council under the Estate Duty Ordinance with no policy implications to the Secretary for the Treasury in order to lessen the burden on the Governor in Council and to irnprove the presentation of the Ordinance.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

STAMP DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Stamp Duty Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Stamp Duty (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to adjust the rates of stamp duty to bring relief to home buyers at the lower to middle end of the market, including those who purchase Home Ownership flats or Sandwich Class Housing Scheme properties. Specifically, it increases the limit below which only the nominal fee of $100 is charged from $500,000 to $750,000. The rate of 0.75% will apply to properties with a value of $750,000 to $1.5 million; the rate of 1.5% will apply to properties with a value of $1.5 million to $2.5 million; the rate of 2% will apply to properties with a value of $2.5 million to $3.5 million; and the threshold at which the maximum rate of 2.75% begins to apply will be raised from $3.0 million to $3.5 million.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

MOTOR VEHICLES (FIRST REGISTRATION TAX) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Motor Vehicles (First Registration Tax) Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Motor Vehicle (First Registration Tax) (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to enable the Commissioner for Transport to set by regulation the maximum value for tax exempted items, that is exempted accessories and distributor's warranty, in respect of different levels of taxable value of vehicles so that the value of these items in excess of the maximum value would become taxable. This will tackle the problem of over-declaring the value of the tax exempted items as a means to reduce the taxable value of the vehicle and therefore the first registration tax payable. We will consult the vehicle trade on the appropriate level of the maximum value of the various tax exempted items before we introduce the regulation, which will be subject to the scrutiny of this Council in the usual manner.

The Bill also enables us to impose conditions on the granting of first registration tax remission and to provide sanctions against abuse to obtain the remission. This is necessary for the implementation of the proposed scrapping incentive scheme for replacement of old vehicles, as announced in the Budget. Under the scheme, which is being introduced in order to improve air quality, if the owner of a private vehicle of ten years old or more gives up the old vehicle and replaces it with a new one, he would be eligible for a reduction in first registration tax of 20 per cent of the tax payable or $30,000, whichever is the lower amount. The conditions we intend to impose to safeguard against abuse are

(a) the old vehicle must be scrapped and de-registered;

(b) the old vehicle must have been continuously licensed for the 24 months immediately before scrapping;

(c) the ownership of the vehicle must have remained unchanged for the 24 months immediately before scrapping;

(d) the right to the concession can only be retained for six months after the scrapping of the old vehicle;

(e) the replacement vehicle has to be petrol-engined; and

(f) the transfer of the replacement vehicle purchased within one year after acquisition will be subject to the repayment of the first registration tax remission provided.

Any person who made a false declaration in order to obtain the remission commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine of $500,000 and imprisonment of 12 months.

The opportunity is also taken in this exercise to rectify minor irregularities in the legislation and to amend provisions related to "disabled person" to reflect accurately the policy intention that first registration tax remission would only be granted to a disabled person who is fit to drive.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

AIR PASSENGER DEPARTURE TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Air Passenger Departure Tax Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Air Passenger Departure Tax (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the second time.

The Bill seeks to increase the Air Passenger Departure Tax from $50 to $100, which was the level when the tax was first introduced in 1983. The level of $50 is well below the average for the region and the increase will bring the tax more in line with the level charged in other places. Passengers aged below the year of twelve are still not required to pay the tax.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

BETTING DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Betting Duty Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that the Betting Duty (Amendment) Bill 1996 be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to increase betting duty by half a percentage point. The rate for a standard bet will be increased from 11.5% to 12% and for exotic bets from 17.5% to 18%. The increase will apply with effect from the next racing season, 1 September 1996. The Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club will absorb the cost of the increase by a corresponding reduction in its betting commission. The prize money pool will not be reduced.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, DR LEONG CHE-HUNG, took the Chair.

DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1996

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY to move the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance."

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I move that the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill be read the Second time.

The Bill seeks to increase the specific duty rates on tobacco and fuel by 9% broadly in line with inflation in 1995. This is consistent with our overall budgetary strategy whereby we aim to maintain the yield in real terms from the various sources of revenue to ensure financial stability. In the case of tobacco duty, we also believe that there is a need to increase the duty rates in order to maintain the deterrent effect of the duty on smoking. The impact of the proposed duty increases on inflation is minimal.

We have recently strengthened the resources of the Customs and Excise Department to tackle the problems of cigarette smuggling and illicit activities in the use of diesel oil.

Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the Bill to Members.

Question on the motion on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed.

Debate on the motion adjourned and Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills

LEGAL AID SERVICES COUNCIL (NO. 2) BILL

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 18 October 1995

MRS MIRIAM LAU: Mr Deputy, the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill was introduced into the Legislative Council on the 18 October 1995. The purpose of the Bill is to establish the Legal Aid Services Council as a body corporate to supervise the provision of legal aid in Hong Kong.

A Bills Committee, of which I am the Chairman, was set up to study the Bill. The Bills Committee has held eight meetings, five of which were with the Administration. It has received three joint submissions from the Bar Association and the Law Society and a submission from the Duty Lawyer Service and met their representatives at the second and fourth meetings.

From the outset, Members have grave doubts about the merits of the proposed non-independent Legal Aid Services Council. They queried why the Administration is pursuing this option despite the overwhelming vote of the Legislative Council in July 1993 and the unanimous view of the legal profession for an independent legal aid authority. The Administration's explanation is that this option could be implemented more quickly and that the other proposal could be considered at a later stage after the Legal Aid Services Council has conducted a feasibility study on the matter.

It is clear that if the Bill is rejected, it is unlikely that the Administration will pursue Members' preferred option in the near future. Under these circumstances, a majority of Members agree to aim at making suitable amendments to enhance the Legal Aid Services Council's level of independence and to improve its terms of reference so that at least it would be a step closer towards the goal of an independent legal aid authority. On the other hand, a few Members indicated that, whilst respecting other Members' wish to seek amendments to the Bill, they are inclined to reject the Bill as it does not meet with their expectations.

I will briefly describe the main issues considered by the Bills Committee.

The Bills Committee note that the Bar Association and the Law Society maintain the principle that legal aid services should be made independent and oppose the establishment of the proposed Legal Aid Services Council. In their view, the creation of the Legal Aid Services Council is merely cosmetic. It represents an additional level of bureaucracy, the effect of which will be to divert accountability for legal aid from the Legal Aid Department to a body which is not in a position, because of restraints on its powers, to be so accountable. They are strongly opposed to the proposal of bringing the Duty Lawyer Service under the Legal Aid Services Council. They consider that as the Duty Lawyer Service has been functioning smoothly and cost-effectively, there is no point in adding another layer of supervisory bureaucracy over the Duty Lawyer Service Council which would have the effect of diminishing the autonomy of the Duty Lawyer Service.

At the request of the Bills Committee, the legal profession has provided a further submission setting out their proposed amendments to the Bill. They, however, stressed that even with such amendments, the Bill does not reflect their preferred course and is a poor substitute for an independent legal aid authority.

Having regard to the smooth running of the Duty Lawyer Service and the existence of the Duty Lawyer Service Council, Members support the legal profession's view that the Duty Lawyer Service should be allowed to maintain its autonomous status and unanimously agree that it should not be placed under the Legal Aid Services Council.

Although the Administration maintains that the establishment of the Legal Aid Services Council would not undermine the independent operation of the Duty Lawyer Service, it has agreed to amend clause 4 of the Bill to the effect that the Duty Lawyer Service will not be accountable to the Legal Aid Services Council for the provision of its legal aid services. However, it considers that as the Legal Aid Services Council is the Governor's advisor on the policy on legal aid, it is of fundamental importance that the Legal Aid Services Council should be able to offer advice on the whole range of publicly funded legal aid services, including the Duty Lawyer Service. It therefore insists that the Legal Aid Services Council should retain an advisory role over the Duty Lawyer Service and does not accept the Bills Committee's proposal to delete all references to the Duty Lawyer Service.

Another main concern of Members is that the proposed Legal Aid Services Council is not sufficiently independent. With its limited scope and power, the Legal Aid Services Council cannot enhance independence of legal aid services.

Various suggestions have been put forward by Members to improve the relevant provisions, including a suggestion to model the Legal Aid Services Council on the Municipal Councils. However, having considered the mode of operation of the two Municipal Councils, Members agree that such mode is not suitable as the Legal Aid Services Council is neither independent nor financially autonomous. After discussion, the Administration accepted some of the suggestions made by Members and has proposed amendments to the clause to address some of Members' concerns, including deleting provisions which place undue limit on the Legal Aid Services Council's power.

A further concern relates to the feasibility study on the establishment of an independent legal aid authority. Members pointed out that while the Administration kept on stressing that one of the most important tasks of the Legal Aid Services Council is to conduct the feasibility study, this is not mentioned in the Bill. They strongly feel that this important function should be explicitly stated in the Bill.

On review, the Administration agreed to include this function under a revised clause 4(5) concerning the Legal Aid Services Council's advisory role.

However, since the revised subclause still covers the Duty Lawyer Service, a majority of Members agree that the Bills Committee should move amendments to clauses 2 and 4 to delete all references to the Duty Lawyer Service.

The Bill Committee also examined the proposed membership of the Council. One Member suggested the four lay members of the Legal Aid Services Council should include a Member of the Legislative Council and persons from non-government human rights organizations and social and welfare services organizations as well as the academic community.

The Administration finds the proposal unacceptable as it considers that lay members should be drawn from all sectors of the community. It also pointed out that all members are appointed on a personal basis to ensure that impartial and independent advice is given to the Legal Aid Services Council, and as far as possible, lay members should not feel obliged to represent the views of certain bodies or sectors of the community. Furthermore, it considers that the proposal will restrict the choices available to the Governor and undermine his effort in trying to appoint the most suitable persons to the Legal Aid Service Council.

However, as requested by the Member, the Administration has agreed to provide an undertaking in the Chief Secretary's speech in reply that the Administration will consider appointing lay members from the suggested sectors. And I look forward to receiving that in the Chief Secretary's reply.

Another main issue considered by the Bills Committee is the prohibition of unauthorized disclosure of information as set out under clause 14.

Members note that the Bar Association and the Law Society have proposed to delete the clause as they consider that criminalization of disclosure of information is wholly unnecessary and unsupported by any evidence of previous disclosure. They have also referred to similar provisions in the Legal Aid (Amendment) Bill 1995 which were withdrawn by the Administration because of strong objection from the Bills Committee and the legal profession.

In response to Members' request for explanation of the rationale for including such provisions, the Administration informed Members that the clause is modelled on section 38 of the Legal Aid Act 1988 of the United Kingdom for the purpose of protecting applicants for legal aid and legally aided persons from disclosure of information. Some Members pointed out that it is inappropriate to adopt the United Kingdom practice as Hong Kong has a different legal aid system.

Members note that there is no problem of unauthorized disclosure of information by staff of the Legal Aid Department who, as civil servants, are subject to disciplinary action under Civil Service Regulations. They also note that as the clause is not intended to cover the legal team or its staff, the proposal only extends to members and staff of the Legal Aid Services Council who can be prevented from making unauthorized disclosure by contract terms or by undertaking.

Having considered the Administration's explanation and having regard to the fact that there are no such provisions in the Housing Ordinance, the Hospital Authority Ordinance, the Urban Council Ordinance and the Regional Council Ordinance, a majority of Members do not consider that there is sufficient justification for such a provision in the Bill and agree that the clause should be deleted.

Taking into account suggestions made by a few Members, the Administration has proposed amendments to restrict the scope of clause 14 by defining the term "a person", to allow disclosure of information with the consent of the applicant for legal aid or the legally aided person and to provide that a prosecution for an offence under this section is not to be brought without the written consent of the Attorney General. Two Members have indicated that they would support the clause, if so amended. However, a majority of Members maintain that the clause is unjustified and the same should be deleted in its entirety.

At the conclusion of deliberations by the Bills Committee, three Members (representing the minority in the Bill Committee) have clearly indicated that they remain opposed to the Bill, notwithstanding the amendments proposed by Members and the Administration. They point out that although the amendments make the Bill less objectionable, the Legal Aid Services Council as proposed falls far short of their expectations and is therefore not acceptable.

In accordance with the majority wish of the Bills Committee, I will move amendments to clauses 2, 4 and 14 of the Bill at the Committee stage.

Mr Deputy, with these remarks and subject to the Committee stage amendments agreed by the Bills Committee, I commend this Bill to Members.

MISS MARGARET NG: Mr Deputy, I oppose the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill. As a member of the Bills Committee which examined this Bill, I have indicated to the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU, Chairman of the Committee, that I will do so notwithstanding the amendments to be proposed in the Committee stage.

In opposing the Bill, I voice not only my own opposition, but also the opposition of both branches of the legal profession who have studied this Bill in great detail. It is their view and mine, that the Legal Aid Services Council (LASC) proposed has nothing to do with making legal aid independent or financially autonomous. It is mere window dressing, and may indeed do the public more harm than good by diverting responsibility and accountability from the Administration to the Council for the efficiency and adequacy of legal aid. The Council, which will have no administrative or executive or decision-making power, is liable to be made the scapegoat of the Administration, and a shield to whatever the Administration wants or do not want to do.

More fundamentally, I oppose this Bill because of the spirit underlying it. As first presented to us, it was a less than honest Bill. It purports to set up an independent legal aid services council, but is in fact nothing of the sort. It purports to meet the public demand for an independent legal aid service, but in fact offers no more than an advisory body of the Government with a limited supervisory role under a grand-sounding name. What the Bills Committee has managed to do is to make the real nature of the Council clearer by amending the Bill. The amendments drawn up by the legal profession which the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU referred to were for the sole purpose of making the nature of the Council clearer, but we could not make it more independent than it is. So, let us look at the functions of the Council as set out in the Administration's Committee stage amendment to clause 4(2) of the Bill: "The Council may", it says:

- formulate policies

- give advice on policy direction

- review the work of the Department and "make such arrangements as are expedient and proper" for efficient and economical legal aid services

- keep under review the Department's plans for development

- consider and advise on the estimates

These are all typical functions of an advisory committee.

The Bill may appear to make the Council more than that. Under clause 4(1), the Council is supposed to be "responsible for overseeing the administration" of the legal aid services provided by the Legal Aid Department, and the Department is supposed to be "accountable" to the Council. But responsibility is not the same as power. The Director of Legal Aid and every single member of staff of that Department remains directly responsible to the Administration. They are hired and fired, promoted or demoted or transferred by the Administration. The budget is controlled by the Administration. How the Department works with other government departments is a matter within the Administration. Under whatever new appearance, legal aid is going to remain completely under government control.

The powerlessness of the Council can be seen more clearly in clause 4(3) and (5)

- under (3), it says, it does not have the power to direct the Department on staff matters.

- (5) reads: "The Council is the Governor's advisory body on the policy of the Government concerning all publicly funded legal aid service ......"

¢w not a body through which representatives of the public decide on legal aid policies and direct the carrying out of the these policies with the advice and assistance of the legal profession.

Mr Deputy, the public needs a truly independent legal aid service which it can feel fully confident to be beyond the interference of the executive, because there are real, and not only perceived, conflict of interests between the two. The public does not need a cosmetic change which, if you will forgive the mixed metaphor, merely pulls wool over its eyes.

This Council, in a motion debate on 21 July 1993, has stated in no uncertain terms that it does not want a seemingly independent Legal Aid Services Council. It said so by a vote of 37 against two. What clearer message can we send to the Administration? Yet we are now being served exactly what we said we did not want.

In this context, the compromise, under clause 4(6), that the Council will advise on "the feasibility and desirability of the establishment of an independent legal aid authority" is of little value. Indeed, it may even represent a step backwards, in that the "feasibility and desirability" study has already been carried out and decided upon back in 1993.

Last but not least, it is the strongest possible view of the legal profession, and Duty Lawyer Services that Duty Lawyer Services, at present the only truly independent part of legal aid services, be kept out of such a dubious scheme as this Bill. This is also a strong and unanimous view of the Bills Committee.

Thank you, Mr Deputy.

MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I speak on behalf of the Democratic Party and support the resumption of the Second Reading of the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill, and I also support the amendments proposed by the Chairman of the Bills Committee, at the Committee stage. But at the same time, the Democratic Party wish to express its dissatisfaction over the Government's refusal to establish through the Bill a Legal Aid Services Council (LASC) which is fully independent of the government framework and is fully empowered to administer and provide legal aid services.

Mr Deputy, there are two different views opposing the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill. The first one comes from the two associations of the legal profession, that is, the Hong Kong Bar Association and the Hong Kong Law Society as well as the Honourable Miss Margaret NG who represents the legal profession in this Council. The stand of their opposition is very clear. Its basis is that the LASC to be set up through this Bill is not an organization that is fully independent of the government framework, and has therefore failed to meet their basic requirement. I certainly agree to such a stand. The Democratic Party and I understand and respect Miss NG's decision to vote against it. But as to some specific analysis and reasons which Miss Margaret NG has presented, I have different views, and I shall discuss them in detail later.

The second kind of view opposing the Bill, I believe, comes from Members of the DAB and also Members who have relatively close relationship with China. On the face of it, they criticize that the LASC proposed to be set up under the Bill is neither fish nor fowl, and would therefore not support it. But what if the Government really sets up a fully independent LASC? Would they then support it? I believe they would still oppose it. I believe the main reason why they oppose the establishment of the LASC today is because it is a change which has not been recognized or approved by China. We can never accept their stand because for whatever reforms, no matter whether or not they represent progress, are appropriate, are in the public's interests or in line with the public's opinions, these people dare not support them without China's approval. It is also our belief that those in the legal profession as well as Miss Margaret NG, who hold the first kind of opposing view, would not approve of such a stand either.

Mr Deputy, in examining this Bill, the Democratic Party has seriously and carefully considered the following questions before we decided to support it.

Our first question is: Does the current administration of the Legal Aid Department (LAD) await supervision and improvement in order to ensure that the efficiency and quality of legal aid services can be enhanced? Our answer is in the affirmative.

At present, criticisms levelled against the LAD come mainly from several aspects. The most severely criticized aspect is that the LAD has taken is too long a duration in processing applications, these usual delays and procrastination make applicants feel anxious and helpless. Let us consider this, ordinary applications for compensation for traffic accidents casualties take on an average eight months' processing time; claims for compensation for negligence in medical care take six and a half months; claims for employees' compensation take four months; while divorce and alimony claims take three and a half months for scrutiny. How can we find such efficiency acceptable? We badly need the LASC to formulate a reasonable performance pledge. As for other criticisms, many are related to the attitude of certain LAD officials. Some people criticize them for their bureaucratic indifference, for making conservative professional judgments when assessing the applications, and for their lack of the necessary understanding of, care and sympathy for many unfortunate people who urgently need help. On the whole, many people feel that the LAD is in want of a caring service culture. And many people are also concerned about the fact that there are a lot of shortcomings in the LAD's processing of applications and in the appeal procedures for declined applications, which has not been reviewed and improved for long. All in all, constant supervision and overall reviews are needed for the administrative measures and service policies of the LAD, in order for improvements to be made to cope with the progress of society and meet the needs of the public.

Mr Deputy, our second question is: Will the setting up of the LASC subsequent to this amended Bill help to improve the administration and quality of service of the LAD? Our answer is that we believe it will help to improve them.

We have to admit that what the Bill seeks to set up is not a legal aid services body fully independent of the Government. This point is very clear and the Government also admits this. This is because, to put it in simple terms, the LAD is still a government department. However, the LASC to be established is a relatively independent non-governmental body which can supervise the LAD as well as its legal aid services. Although we believe that the best choice is a fully independent LASC which is fully empowered to supervise and has independent resources; but under the present circumstances, we have to go for the second best and set up a relatively independent supervisory body and we believe this may bring about certain reforms and progress.

First of all, the LASC comprises 10 members. Apart from the Director of Legal Aid (DLA) who is an ex officio member, there are four members from the legal profession (namely, two members to be recommended by the Bar Association and two by the Law Society), the remaining five are unofficial members. The Government has indicated that it would carefully consider the appointment of persons who are concerned about human rights, or who are related to the social service sector , or independent academics, and it will also consider appointing some Legislative Council Members who have popular representation, or other elected Members. Conclusively, it is our belief that the members composing the LASC will altogether be more independent than the Chief Secretary's Office or the Administration Wing, within the Government establishment, which is currently responsible for the supervision of the LAD, and the LASC will be able to exercise more effective supervision.

Secondly, as a matter of policy, the Government has to maintain the LAD's image of being independent to a certain extent, and this is what the Government has always said. Therefore, the Government will not supervise the operation of the LAD regularly. Many people have mentioned that there is no need to establish the LASC. They ask why it cannot be supervised more constantly by the Legislative Council, and why are we directing our efforts against the LAD and the Government instead? But I would like to raise a very practical question, that is whether in practice, the Legislative Council can do that. I would like to ask those in the Legislative Council who are responsible for supervision, whether they can tell us how much time a week or a month would the panel responsible for the supervision of legal aid services spend on dealing with the relevant matters? I remember that last time when we invited the DLA to attend the meeting, he had to leave in a hurry after half an hour's meeting because we had to move on to the next item on our agenda. Eventually, the meeting has to be concluded beyond the scheduled time. Therefore, the problem we have to face now is whether we can designate some people to be devoted specially to the supervision of the work of the LAD. One of the merits of setting up the LASC is that we can have some unofficial people devoted specially to monitoring, reviewing and reforming the administration and services of the LAD.

Miss Margaret NG has criticized that this LASC is merely an advisory body which has no power, or just very little power. I cannot agree entirely with her on this. This is because clause 4(2) of the amendment Bill provides clearly that the LASC has the right to formulate policies on the services of the LAD (of course there are two exceptions mentioned just now, namely, no interference with staffing establishment and handling of cases), it may also conduct regular supervision and review on the work of the LAD to ensure the efficient provision of its services. I think these are real powers for the supervision of the LAD's internal operations. We believe that under this law, the LAD has to respect and comply with the recommendations and decisions made by the LASC.

Our third question is: Is it that if this Bill were passed today, we will give up the right and opportunity of fighting for a fully independent LASC? Our answer is in the negative.

During the course of considering the Bill, the Government had indicated time and again that the setting up of a fully independent LASC for the supervision of the LAD which has been separated from the government framework would not receive consideration at this stage. We have expressed our dissatisfaction on this. But if we were to vote down the Bill today, what we can see is that the Government will not propose any new bill before 1997. Meanwhile, we will not be able to propose a Member's Bill, for that will have a charging effect on public fund. What about the chances of proposing bills after 1997? Under foreseeable circumstances, I believe the chance is also very slim. Therefore, as clause 4 of this Bill stipulates that the LASC is required to continue studying the feasibility of setting up a fully independent LASC, this has at least still placed the matter on agenda. This Council can still make efforts to fight for the setting up of an independent LASC we expect to see. The issue will not come to an end today.

The fourth question is: Are there any shortcomings in establishing a semi-independent LASC which would totally offset the merits we can see? Or will the things we though would represent steps forward turn out to be quite the contrary? After careful deliberation, we have come up with a negative answer.

Miss Margaret NG has worried that this merely nominal LASC may become the scapegoat of the Government or the LAD in respect of some erroneous policies. I can appreciate her misgivings, but I do not agree to her solution, that she would rather not have this semi-independent LASC. In fact, the misgivings of Miss NG can be applicable to all existing statutory bodies such as the Housing Authority, the Hospital Authority, the Airport Authority, the Broadcasting Authority and so on, regardless of whether or not their subordinate administrative departments are within the government framework. If they commit mistakes, do they not have to bear the brunt? Can we say that they are made the scapegoats of the Government? In order to avoid their making wrong policies, do we have to apply the same logic, abolish all these statutory bodies, and go for centralization of power on whatever matters so that we can make the central government answerable to them? We are of the view that this is a way analogous to "cutting off the toes in avoidance of the worms in the sand".

The crux of the matter is that as far as system is concerned, we have to ensure the representation and accountability of statutory bodies. Representation also safeguards independence. This is probably as important as whether the executive organs under it are government departments, if not more important. For example, although the executive arms under the Urban Council and the Regional Council, the Urban Services Department and the Regional Services Department are Government's departments, would we query the independence of the Urban Council and the Regional Council? Will we doubt whether or not they will become the government scapegoat? I find it very important for them to be representative. I hope that later on, the Government will discuss more about the principle of appointing members. Apart from four representatives from the legal profession, I hope that the Government can appoint more members who have popular representation.

Moreover, the accountability of statutory bodies is mainly reflected in whether there is openness and transparency in what they do. We have to ensure that their meetings are open to the public as far as possible and that they would provide more information to the public; besides, they have to be subject to questionings and monitoring by the relevant councils. In fact, these issues will be the main topics for discussion of this Council in future. Later on, the Democratic Party will propose a Housing (Amendment) Bill, and it mainly seeks to bring about for the first time a comprehensive review and debate on the accountability and representation of statutory bodies, and it will even become a precedent for future reforms. Actually, on the question of statutory bodies, the Democratic Party will make a comprehensive study and will propose a comprehensive reform proposal, and the reform of the LASC will of course be included.

Mr Deputy, I also support the amendments put forward by the Bills Committee, and the reasons are listed in the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU's report, which I shall not repeat. With these remarks, I urge Members to support the Bill and Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment.

THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is a natural development for people to pursue equality and justice as society progresses. Legal aid is an integral component of Hong Kong's judicial system. Its importance is beyond question as it ensures that the public will not be deprived of the rights they are entitled to under the law because of limitation on financial means. The Bill submitted to this Council for scrutiny this time seeks to provide for the establishment of the Legal Aid Services Council (LASC) as a body corporate to supervise the provision of legal aid services in Hong Kong. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) is of the view that the proposed LASC is only an advisory body with limited supervisory powers. It is doubtful indeed as to how the LASC can make legal aid accountable to the public as well as how it can enhance the transparency of legal aid services.

Mr President, I consider that the proposal put forward by the Bill reflects that the Government is not sincere enough about improving legal aid. The future LASC is simply not substantially empowered to make any changes in policies, or give directions as to providing legal aid to the public and operating the Legal Aid Department. I believe such an operational framework would be of limited value in improving legal aid services.

Moreover, the Bill proposes that the Duty Lawyer Service (DLS) should be brought under the supervision of the LASC. Just as the legal profession puts it, this is practically a retrogressive measure. The DAB agrees that the present DLS, operating under the Council of the DLS, has been doing well and has not received any complaints. The way it operates is cost-effective too. Hence, there is no need for setting up a bureaucratic framework by adding another supervisory stratum on top of the Council. Such a duplicity of hierarchy will only undermine the autonomy of the DLS without improving its services. On the contrary, it will result in a waste of public money.

Although the Government and the Bills Committee have separately proposed amendments which seek to prevent the power of the LASC from being unduly restricted and to delete the clause which puts the DLS under the LASC's supervision so as to make the Bill more acceptable, the DAB is still of the view that the proposed LASC is not desirable. If the proposed mechanism is not going to improve the existing services, it is better for the Government to improve the existing framework, including the strengthening of the functions of the Council of the DLS, the inclusion of non-legal members in the Legal Aid Standing Committee and the holding of regular committee meetings and so on. I believe these measures can also perform functions similar to those proposed for the LASC, and will help supervise the administration of legal aid as well as reducing public expenditure.

In his speech just delivered, the Honourable Albert HO from the Democratic Party accused the DAB of failing to support this Bill because it had not gained China's permission. I feel that such an accusation is a downright calumny and is an irresponsible remark. As the saying goes, real gold fears not the test of furnace fire. I believe the performance of the representatives of the DAB throughout the entire scrutiny process of the Bill is evident to many Members sitting here. Our position is crystal clear and is not going to be distorted by one or two remarks. I would also like to urge Mr HO not to stick labels on others indiscriminately.

These are my remarks.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is my intention to vote against the Bill in the Second Reading. However, as the Honourable Albert HO has just impose such a big label on Members, saying that there are two kinds of opinions, one is professional and the other political, I am afraid that people may later misunderstand my voting intention if I do not explain my stand clearly.

Of course, I am not worried that someone labels me as pro-China or otherwise as it does not concern me very much. But I would like to explain clearly why I support the remarks made by the Honourable Miss Margaret NG. As both of us represent professional bodies, I respect her professional opinion. As a matter of fact, I am not well aware of China's view or position, nor have I ever heard of it before. After listening to what the Honourable IP Kwok-him from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) said, I think some of the views are reasonable, and therefore I respect his views too. Moreover, I believe that the DAB is not speaking on behalf of China. I think there is no basis for such assertion. Even Mr Albert HO has no basis for saying that these views are expressed on behalf of China.

As a professional, I entirely agree with the view that the Legal Aid Department (LAD) should have independent financial and manpower resources as well as independent powers to deal with or to cast influence on policies. Moreover, it should be independently accountable to the public, especially when the users are the general public. Such independence differs slightly from what Mr IP Kwok-him referred to as what he said was independence could be achieved. This point is very important. But as a professional, I do not only hope that the LAD can become independent, but also hope that it can be seen by the public that it is truly independent. In this respect, the generality of the Bill is not adequate enough. If these views are, not the views of the Chinese side at present, I would be very pleased to recommend them to China.

I think the Second Reading of a Bill is a voting on principle. As I entirely agree with the views held by Miss Margaret NG, I will cast an opposing vote. Nevertheless, apart from what Mr Albert HO said at the beginning, the rest of his views gave me a fresh and new feeling and it is an extraordinary piece of speech indeed. All along, Members from the Democratic Party have been very pragmatic in analysizing the servicing frameworks of policies. As a professional, I may be even more progressive than Mr HO. His views are not incorrect. What he and Mr IP Kwok-him said are equally right. From a pragmatic point of view, under the careful guidance of the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU who chairs the Bills Committee, improvements have actually been made to the Bill. Therefore, if the Bill were passed in the Second Reading, I will not vote against it in the Committee stage and in the Third Reading.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I feel extremely regrettable about the remarks made by the Honourable Albert HO. He alleged that the colleagues from the Democratic Alliance for Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) voted against the Bill because the Bill was not agreed to by the Chinese Government, creating an impression that DAB is either the toady or the puppet of the Chinese Government. We feel that to us, these are insulting remarks. I hope that the President can make a ruling under Standing Order 31(4) afterwards and that the Honourable Albert HO will withdraw his remarks. Unless Mr HO can substantiate his comments with concrete evidence, I hope he will withdraw his remarks and apologize to us.

PRESIDENT: It is no longer a point of order, if you wish to raise a point of order, it should have been made at the time when Mr HO put forward his view. And by the way, the terms that you have used yourself in your speech might be even more offensive than the words used by Mr HO himself.

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, on 18 October 1995, the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill was introduced into this Council. This Bill provides for the establishment of an independent Legal Aid Services Council to oversee the publicly-funded legal services operated by the Legal Aid Department and the Duty Lawyer Service. The objective of the Bill is to provide greater and more direct public participation in legal aid administration and policy formulation and to enhance the independence of legal aid administration.

I would like first to thank members of the Bills Committee, especially its Chairman, the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU, for their hard work and thorough examination of this controversial Bill. We have responded positively to most of the ideas put forward by members of the Bills Committee and these are reflected in the Committee stage amendments which I will move later.

Before I proceed any further, Mr President, I should like to acknowledge that I appreciate that, for some Members, this Bill does not go nearly far enough and in the view of certain Members, nothing short of a totally independent legal aid services will be acceptable. Let me just recapitulate briefly why we do not agree with setting up an independent legal aid authority now.

The first reason is that we are frankly not convinced that this is the best way forward. The second reason is that it would take a considerable period of time to do this. It will be necessary to dis-establish the Legal Aid Department and draw up new terms and conditions of services for the new authority.

From experience, this could involve protracted consultation with the staff of the Department who have not indicated clear support for the proposal. Therefore, we have proposed to proceed in two stages; first, by establishing the Legal Aid Services Council, and secondly, by asking the Legal Aid Services Council to examine and advise on the proposal for an independent authority.

Mr President, I would now like to outline briefly our proposed changes to the Bill and to set out our views on some of the concerns raised by the Bills Committee.

First, in my speech on 18 October 1995 to move the Second Reading of this Bill, I said that once the Legal Aid Services Council had been established, we would ask the Council to examine the feasibility and desirability of establishing an independent legal aid authority. Some Members were of the view that, for the avoidance of doubt, the Bill should provide explicitly that the Council's advice would be sought on this proposal. To allay Members' concern, I shall move a Committee stage amendment to include a subclause to this effect in clause 4 of the Bill.

Secondly, some members of the Bills Committee suggested that the Duty Lawyer Service should not be put under the supervision of the Legal Aid Services Council since the Service is already managed by an independent governing body, the Council of the Duty Lawyer Service. They supported the legal profession's view that the Duty Lawyer Service should be allowed to maintain its autonomous status. We are prepared to agree that the Duty Lawyer Service should be excluded from the supervision of the Legal Aid Services Council. At the Committee stage, I shall move amendments to clauses 3, 4, 5, 9 and 10 of the Bill to give effect to this. However, we believe that it is important that the Council should be able to advise the Government on the provision of all publicly-funded legal aid services, including those provided by the Legal Aid Department and the Duty Lawyer Service. This is preserved in the new clause 4(5) that I shall propose.

The Chairman of the Bills Committee, Mrs LAU, will propose Committee stage amendments to clauses 2 and 4 to delete all reference to the Duty Lawyer Service. As I have just said, the Administration believes that it is important that the Council should be able to offer advice on the whole range of publicly-funded legal aid service and on the co-ordination between the Legal Aid Department and the Duty Lawyer Service. We therefore cannot support Mrs LAU's proposed amendments.

Thirdly, some Members proposed that clause 4 of the Bill, which sets out the functions of the Council, should be amended to refine the relationship between the Council and the Legal Aid Department to enhance the supervisory role of the Council. The amendment to clause 4 that I shall move at the Committee stage will allow the Council to look into the day-to-day operation of the Department, with the exception of staff matters and the handling of individual legal aid cases. A provision will also be made to require the Department to provide information as reasonably requested by the Council.

Fourthly, some Members proposed deleting clause 14 of the Bill, which provides for the prohibition of unauthorized disclosure of information. They considered that the criminalization of disclosure of information was unnecessary. Clause 14 is modelled on a similar provision in the United Kingdom legislation and its purpose is to protect applicants for legal aid and aided persons from unauthorized disclosure of information. However, we appreciate Members' concern, and I will move an amendment to restrict the scope of clause 14 and to provide that a prosecution for an offence under this clause will not be brought without the written consent of the Attorney General. But we do not agree that clause 14 should be deleted, as Mrs LAU will propose at the Committee stage. The privacy of applicants for legal aid and aided persons needs to be adequately protected.

Some Members also suggested that the Administration should appoint as lay members of the Council a Member of this Council, persons from human rights organizations, social services and welfare organizations and the academic community. I can assure Members that we will give careful consideration to appointing persons from these groups as lay members when the Council is established.

Mr President, with these remarks, and subject to the Committee stage amendments proposed by the Administration, I commend the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill to Honourable Members.

Question on Second Reading of the Bill put.

Voice vote taken.

Mrs Miriam LAU claimed a division.

PRESIDENT: Council shall proceed to a division.

PRESIDENT: I would like to remind Members that they are now called upon to vote on the question that the Legal Aid Services Council (No. 2) Bill be read the Second time.

PRESIDENT: Will Members please register their presence by pressing the top button and then proceed to vote by pressing one of the three buttons below?

PRESIDENT: Before I declare the result, Members may wish to check their votes. Are there any queries? The result will now be displayed.

Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr SZETO Wah, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mr Edward HO, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Michael HO, Dr HUANG Chen-ya, Miss Emily LAU, Mr LEE Wing-tat, Mr Fred LI, Mr Henry TANG, Mr James TO, Dr Samuel WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr WONG Wai-yin, Mr Andrew CHENG, Dr Anthony CHEUNG, Mr Albert HO, Mr LAU Chin-shek, Dr LAW Cheung-kwok, Mr LAW Chi-kwong, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr Bruce LIU, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Mr TSANG Kin-shing, Dr John TSE and Mr YUM Sin-ling voted for the motion.

Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mr CHIM Pui-chung, Mr Eric LI, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr Paul CHENG, Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung, Mr CHOY Kan-pui, Mr David CHU, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Ambrose LAU, Miss Margaret NG and Mr NGAN Kam-chuen voted against the motion.

Mrs Elizabeth WONG abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 33 votes in favour of the motion and 12 votes against it. He therefore declared that the motion was carried.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

KADOORIE AGRICULTURAL AID LOAN FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 13 March 1996

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1995

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 29 November 1995

DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1995 was presented to the Legislative Council on 29 November 1995. The main purpose of the Bill is to enable the Government to tax on the income of Hong Kong-based airlines which is derived from overseas sources if bilateral double taxation relief has been arranged. Besides, the Bill proposes to make miscellaneous technical amendments in order to update and revise the Inland Revenue Ordinance.

A Bills Committee chaired by me was formed by this Council to study the Bill. The Bills Committee has held two meetings with the Administration and has received a submission from the Hong Kong Society of Accountants.

I will give a brief account on the main points which have been considered by the Bills Committee.

Clause 6 of the Bill seeks to bring into force the double taxation relief clauses for airline income.

Members note that the clause violates the principle of imposing taxation on the basis of territorial source in Hong Kong and have asked the Administration to provide further information on the rationale behind this move.

In response, the Administration explained that imposing taxation upon profits of the international air services industry is a "grey area" because income is mainly derived from activities carried on within the international airspace. This makes it difficult for profits made by airlines in different countries to be allocated in a meaningful way on the basis of income sources. Most countries adopt approaches quite different from that adopted by Hong Kong. These countries adopt the income of their local airlines generated worldwide as the basis for imposing taxation and it is not uncommon for airline operators to suffer a certain degree of loss in respect of double taxation. To solve this problem, quite a number of countries tried to enter into bilateral double taxation relief agreements in regard to the income of airlines with other countries, such that each region can have the exclusive right to tax local airlines on profits arising from international operations in the other party's territory.

Members note that the present legislative amendment was initiated by the local airline industry. The Administration is proposing this amendment in response to appeals from our international aviation partners to enter into negotiations on double taxation relief. In general, it is an international practice that the countries concerned can only impose tax on the income of their local airlines. In this aspect, Hong Kong is following the international practice and the recommendations put forth by organizations for economic co-operation and development and international civil aviation organizations.

The Administration stressed that the proposed legislative amendment is not intended to create a precedent for breaching the territorial source basis of our taxation system. Instead, it seeks to eliminate the worries of local airlines which are confronted with double taxation in their day-to-day operations. This is a unique situation which cannot be easily applied to businesses other than airline and air services operations.

To allay Members' concern, the Secretary for the Treasury will include clear statements in his speech, to be made later on, to the effect that:

(a) the legislative amendment is to cater for the particular situation in respect of international airline operations;

(b) the application of the amendment is restricted to the unique situation of international airline operations; and

(c) the amendment will not be regarded as creating a precedent for the taxation of worldwide income on other types of Hong Kong business.

The Bills Committee is also concerned with the exchange of tax-related information between Hong Kong and overseas jurisdictions. Since other countries may have different practices and provisions regarding what sort of information should be kept confidential and what information can be disclosed, Members have requested the Administration to consider restricting the information to be included in the double taxation arrangements made between Hong Kong and other countries and to see whether it is necessary to introduce a specific provision for such kind of restriction in the Bill.

The Administration has responded by explaining that there is no provision for the exchange of tax-related information under the standard double taxation relief article regarding airline income to be incorporated into the Air Services Agreements. It has also clarified that the standard "provision of statistics" article in the Air Services Agreements only refers to the exchange of data relating to aeronautical statistics and that it does not include any tax-related information.

As regards Members' concern about whether section 49(5) of the Ordinance is applicable to the double taxation arrangements, the Administration has pointed out that at present section 49(5) only covers the double taxation arrangements made between Hong Kong and the United States in relation to the imposition of taxation upon the income from air services. Besides, the Administration has also clarified that this section can only be applied to the said arrangements when the double taxation relief articles specifically stipulate that tax-related information should be disclosed, notwithstanding the obligation as to secrecy imposed by section 4 of the Ordinance. Nevertheless, our present amendment does not come under the case mentioned above.

The Administration has also advised that a double taxation relief arrangement has to be put into effect by an Order to be made by the Governor in Council under section 49(1) of the Inland Revenue Ordinance. As a subsidiary legislation, the Order is subject to the scrutiny of the Legislative Council. It is therefore impossible for provisions for the exchange of tax-related information to be incorporated into the arrangement concerned without notifying this Council or without the consent of this Council.

The Secretary for the Treasury is prepared to make a clear policy statement in his speech later on in order to further assure Members that the Administration, in negotiating double taxation relief arrangements for airline income, has no intention to incorporate any provision for the exchange of tax-related information into the scope of the arrangements.

Members have also asked the Administration for information concerning the position of the Government's tax revenue after double taxation arrangements for airline profits have been concluded.

In response to Members' request, the Administration has informed the Bills Committee that there were altogether 48 airline files as at 31 March 1995, amongst which only 18 files have returned assessed profits. The remaining files either returned losses or zero profit.

The Administration has confirmed that, under the current economic and airline business situation, an overall net gain in tax revenue will result from double taxation relief arrangements for airline profits made between Hong Kong and our aviation partners in other parts of the world.

In view of the fact that sufficient protection and assurance has been given by the Administration to alleviate Members' worries, Members are in support of all the clauses proposed in the Bill.

The Administration will move three technical amendments to the Bill in the Committee stage, which will also be supported by the Bills Committee.

Mr President, with these remarks, I recommend the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill to Members.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, there are in excess of 60 airlines in the tourism functional constituency which I represent. Out of these 60, only three are Hong Kong airlines. More than 50 are non-Hong Kong, or commonly known as foreign airlines, which operate into or have a presence in Hong Kong.

Within the airline industry, there is an unanimous opinion that this Bill should be supported. Firstly, from the three Hong Kong airlines' point of view, at the moment those who make profit only need to pay tax on the profits made in Hong Kong. However, most of the income from Hong Kong airlines, at least in one particular case, is derived from overseas which at the moment is not subject to Hong Kong taxation. Therefore, by passing this Bill, it will make Hong Kong airlines pay more tax to the Hong Kong Government.

Of course, this is off-set against potential taxes they have to pay overseas. One may ask then, even if the taxation effect on an airline is neutral, then is there any benefit other than taxation figures to Hong Kong airlines? And I have been given to understand that there is on the administrative side. It means that any Hong Kong-based airline, any one of the three that I have just mentioned, only have to deal with Hong Kong tax and do not have to deal with up to 20, 30 or even 40 different taxation regimes around the world. It means that they will have less need for huge administrative support and even taxation experts in their accounts department to deal with tax. Therefore, from the Hong Kong airline's point of view, they support this Bill even though it will mean that they will be paying more tax to the Hong Kong Government.

Now, from the foreign airlines' point of view, which in Hong Kong's case is the majority of the cases, the reality is that since over the last decade or so, most airlines in the world have been suffering losses. Secondly, the share of profits derived from Hong Kong for normal overseas airlines is extremely small because many foreign airlines have a huge domestic market. Therefore, the Hong Kong Government all along has been deriving very little or maybe even no tax at all from foreign airlines. Therefore it is viewed by both domestic and foreign airlines that the passage of this Bill will not really represent much of a loss to the Hong Kong Government. In fact, it should really gain because of the extra taxation derived from local airlines.

The argument which I presented just now on decrease in administrative costs and not having to have experts in taxation over a host of foreign, different taxation jurisdictions also applies to foreign airlines. Therefore, Mr President, from the international and Hong Kong airline community, there is considerable support for this Bill on the basis that it will not affect Hong Kong's basic taxation philosophy, that is, we really do tax income on profits derived from Hong Kong, and only in this case, because of the peculiarities of international air travel that this is an exception.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the Bill.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, during the Committee stage of this Bill, I represented the accounting profession in Hong Kong to express its views. And, as far as I can remember, our profession was the only sector which expressed some substantial reservations about the Bill. However, I would also like to thank the Government for its receptiveness, and for the professionalism with which it provided its views and the related information within a short period of time enabling the Committee to reach consensus over a number of aspects.

The consensus referred to consists of, first, my acceptance of the Bill's recognition that the airline industry is a very unique trade as far as taxation is concerned. The Honourable Howard YOUNG, among others, helped in the work of convincing me. His contribution in this regard has therefore been very significant. Second, when giving its reply during the Committee stage, the Government promised to clarify its position and policy. Since the Chairman of the Bills Committee has already described the related circumstances in detail, I will not repeat them now.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that the accounting sector in Hong Kong is not against any Government efforts to continue its discussions with other countries on the different aspects of double taxation agreements. We have reservations about this Bill, but this does not mean that we are totally against it. We just want to state our position clearly, hoping that the Government can provide a definite position with clear justifications for each and every bilateral taxation agreement, so that the long-term interests of Hong Kong will not be compromised. To safeguard our long-term interests, firstly, the confidentiality of the information now kept in the Inland Revenue Department must not be sacrificed by any casual disclosure to other countries.

Secondly, it is hoped that the long-term taxation interests of Hong Kong will not be compromised. Taxation interests also include other possible economic interests. We may see these interests in the short-run, but we may have to carry out assessments for the long term ones. If the Government intends to clarify the policy mentioned just now (and I believe that the Government will certainly do so), I will also give my support.

Thank you, Mr President.

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, first of all, let me thank the members who have spoken on this Bill just now, I would also like to thank Dr the Honourable HUANG Chen-ya and the Bills Committee for their thorough and detailed discussions with the Administration on the Bill. I am very grateful for the support the Bills Committee has given to the Bill. The main purpose of the Bill is to enable us to tax the income of Hong Kong airlines which is earned from air traffic involving an agreement country. This Bill will allow us to bring into force double taxation relief articles in Air Services Agreements. Under the Agreements, we will have the right to tax the income from international traffic of Hong Kong airlines derived from an agreement country if such income has been granted full tax relief by that country. At the same time, we will give up the right to tax the income of airlines of the agreement country derived from Hong Kong if such income is subject to tax in that country.

In the course of examining the Bill, Members of the Bills Committee expressed concern over two issues, namely whether the amendments would undermine the territorial source basis of our taxation system, and whether there would be an obligation to disclose tax-related information to overseas authorities. Let me make clear the Administration's stand on these two issues.

First, the objective of the amendments is to cater for the unique situation in respect of international airline operations. The initiative for the present legislative amendments came from the local airline industry. Due to the international nature of their operations, airline operators are more susceptible to

double taxation than other taxpayers. Our international aviation partners have also appealed to us to enter into negotiation on double taxation relief. In fact, to seek taxation of airlines by the country of residence is the international practice. I can therefore assure Members that the application of the amendments is restricted to the particular situation of international airline operations. They will not be regarded as creating a precedent for the worldwide taxation of income on other types of Hong Kong business.

Secondly, regarding exchange of tax-related information, the Administration has no intention of including an exchange of tax information article in double taxation relief arrangements for airline income in the negotiation of such an arrangement. In the standard double taxation relief article for airline income, there is no provision for exchange of tax information. We have not to date negotiated any such provision and will not do so in future. Moreover, the procedures for bringing a double taxation relief arrangement into effect carry their own safeguard. Under Section 49(1) of the Inland Revenue Ordinance, each and every double taxation relief arrangement has to be put into effect by an Order to be made by the Governor in Council. Such Orders are subsidiary legislation and therefore subject to the scrutiny of this Council in the usual way. Members can therefore be assured that no exchange of tax information provision can be included in a double taxation relief arrangement without this Council's knowledge or agreement.

At the Committee stage, I will move a few amendments to the Bill which have been agreed by the Bills Committee. I shall explain the reasons for the amendments at that point.

Thank you, Mr President.

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

Committee Stage of Bills

Council went into Committee.

LEGAL AID SERVICES COUNCIL (NO. 2) BILL

Clauses 1, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 13 were agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 4

CHAIRMAN: Mrs Miriam LAU has given notice to move amendments to clauses 2 and 4 which are inter-related. I will call upon Mrs LAU to move her amendments to clauses 2 and 4 in one group.

MRS MIRIAM LAU: Mr Chairman, I move that clauses 2 and 4 be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

Members of the Bills Committee unanimously agree that the Duty Lawyer Service should be excluded from the ambit of the proposed Legal Aid Services Council for the reasons advanced in my earlier speech introducing the resumption of the Second Reading debate.

The purpose of my amendment to clause 2 is to delete the Duty Lawyer Service from the Interpretation clause of the Bill.

In regard to clause 4, this clause sets out the functions of the Council and its relationship with the Legal Aid Department and the Duty Lawyer Service. As pointed out in my earlier speech, members of the Bills Committee agree unanimously that the Duty Lawyer Service should not be placed under the proposed Legal Aid Services Council.

Apart from seeking to delete all references to the Duty Lawyer Service, the proposed amendments also seek to bring improvements to address some of Members' concerns, including deleting provisions which place undue limit on the power of the Legal Aid Services Council. Members also shared the view that one of the most important tasks of the proposed Council is to conduct a feasibility study on the establishment of an independent legal aid authority, and this function should be explicitly stated in the Bill. It is now included in the proposed subclause 5.

Members may wish to note that my proposed amendments to clause 4 are substantially the same as those proposed by the Administration, except for subclause 5. My version of the subclause is based on an earlier version of the sub-clause proposed by the Administration, but with all references to the Duty Lawyer Service deleted.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 2

That clause 2 be amended, by deleting the definition of "Service".

Clause 4

That clause 4 be amended, by deleting the clause and substituting ¢w

"4. Functions of the Council and

relationship with the Department

(1) The Council is responsible for overseeing the administration of the legal aid services provided by the Department and the Department is accountable to the Council for the provision of such services.

(2) The Council may -

(a) subject to subsections (3) and (5), formulate policies governing the provision of services by the Department and give advice on the policy direction of the Department;

(b) review the work of the Department from time to time and make such arrangements as are expedient and proper to ensure the efficient and economical discharge of the functions and provision of legal aid services by the Department;

(c) keep under review the services provided by the Department and the plans for development of the Department; and

(d) consider and advise on the estimates of expenditure of the Department.

(3) The Council shall not have the power to direct the Department on staff matters and the handling of individual cases by the Department.

(4) The Department shall, subject to subsections (3) and (5), provide such information as is reasonably requested by the Council for the purpose of this Ordinance.

(5) The Council is the Governor's advisory body on the policy of the Government concerning publicly funded legal aid services provided by the Department and shall advise on -

(a) the eligibility criteria, scope of services, mode of service delivery, future plans for improvements, funding requirements and future development of legal aid policy;

(b) the feasibility and desirability of the establishment of an independent legal aid authority; and

(c) any other aspect of legal aid which the Governor may from time to time refer to the Council.

(6) The Council shall not be regarded as an agent or servant of the Government.".

Question on the amendments proposed.

CHAIRMAN: The Chief Secretary has also given notice to move an amendment to clause 4. I propose to have the amendments to clauses 2 and 4 proposed by Mrs LAU and the amendment to clause 4 proposed by the Chief Secretary debated together in a joint debate.

Committee shall debate the amendments to clauses 2 and 4 proposed by Mrs LAU and the amendment to clause 4 proposed by the Chief Secretary together in a joint debate. I will call upon the Chief Secretary to speak on the amendments proposed by Mrs Miriam LAU as well as her own amendment, but will not ask the Chief Secretary to move her amendment unless Mrs LAU's amendments have been negatived. If Mrs LAU's amendments are agreed, that will by implication mean that the Chief Secretary's proposed amendment is not approved.

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr Chairman, as I said in my speech during the Second Reading of this Bill, the Administration agrees that the Duty Lawyer Service should be excluded from the supervision of the Legal Aid Services Council, but considers it important that the Council should be able to advise the Government on the whole range of publicly funded legal aid services, including those provided by the Legal Aid Department and the Duty Lawyer Service, and of the co-ordination of services provided by the Department and the Service. The reason is obvious. If the Council is to carry out its proposed function to advise on the future development of legal aid policy, it must be able to consider the whole range of existing services. We therefore do not agree that the Service should be completely excluded from the Bill and I urge Members to oppose Mrs LAU's amendments to clauses 2 and 4.

The purpose of our amendment to clause 4 is to define more clearly the functions of the Legal Aid Services Council and its relationship with the Legal Aid Department in order to enhance the supervisory role of the Council. The Department will also be required to provide information as reasonably requested by the Council. This has been agreed with the Bills Committee. The difference between our amendment and that proposed by Mrs LAU relates to the power of the Council to advise on all publicly funded legal aid services. For the reasons I have given, the Administration considers this is important and I therefore urge Honourable Members to support my amendment to clause 4.

MRS MIRIAM LAU: Mr Chairman, it was expressly agreed between the Administration and the Bills Committee that the Duty Lawyer Service should be excluded from the ambit of the Legal Aid Services Council. The Legal Aid Services Council therefore has no power to oversee the services provided by the Duty Lawyer Service. Under such circumstances, it is not right to impose on the Council the duty to advise the Governor concerning the Duty Lawyer Service. Nor would it be fair to the Duty Lawyer Service that the Council does so as the Service does not even have any representative on the Council. In the event the Government really finds it necessary to seek the views or advice of the Legal Aid Services Council in relation to the Duty Lawyer Service, the Legal Aid Services Council can still be asked specifically to provide such advice or views under the proposed clause 4(5)(c) which provides that the Council should advise on any other aspect of the legal aid which the Governor may from time to time refer to the Council.

Mr Chairman, as the Administration has accepted the Bills Committee's recommendation that the Duty Lawyer Service should not be placed under the Legal Aid Service Council, the Administration should honour its agreement and not seek to put the Duty Lawyer Service back into the Bill through the back door. I urge Members to support my proposed amendments.

Question on the amendments put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 2 and 4, as amended, put and agreed to.

CHAIRMAN: Chief Secretary, as Mrs Miriam LAU's amendments to clauses 2 and 4 have been agreed, you may not move your proposed amendment to clause 4 as it is inconsistent with the decision already taken.

Clauses 3, 5, 9 and 10

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr Chairman, I move that clauses 3, 5, 9 and 10 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members. Amendments to clause 3 is to clarify that only the Legal Aid Department and not the Duty Lawyer Service will be under the supervision of the Legal Aid Services Counsel. The amendment to clause 5(1) is to exclude the Administrator of the Duty Lawyer Service as a member of the Legal Aid Services Council. This is to reflect the fact that the Service will not be now under the supervision of the Council. The other amendments are technical and consequential. These amendments all have the support of the Bills Committee.

Proposed amendments

Clause 3

That clause 3(1) be amended, by adding at the end "provided by the Department and to advise the Governor on legal aid policy".

Clause 5

That clause 5(1) be amended ¢w

(a) in paragraph (c) by adding "and" at the end.

(b) in paragraph (d) by deleting "; and" and substituting a full stop.

(c) by deleting paragraph (e).

Clause 9

That clause 9(2) be amended, by deleting "7" and substituting "6".

Clause 10

That clause 10(2) be amended, by deleting "8" and substituting "7".

Question on the amendments put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 3, 5, 9 and 10, as amended, put and agreed to.

Clause 14

CHAIRMAN: Both Mrs Miriam LAU and the Chief Secretary have given notice to move amendments to clause 14. I will first call upon Mrs Miriam LAU to move her amendment in accordance with Standing Order 25(4).

MRS MIRIAM LAU: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 14 be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members. The purpose of the amendment is to delete the clause which prohibits the unauthorized disclosure of information by members and other persons. For the reasons I have already advanced at my earlier speech introducing the resumption of the Second Reading debate, a majority of members of the Bills Committee considered that the clause is unjustified and should be deleted.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 14

That clause 14 be amended, by deleting the clause.

Question on the amendment proposed.

CHAIRMAN: The Chief Secretary has also given notice to move an amendment to clause 14. As the two amendments relate to the same clause, I propose to have them debated together in a joint debate.

Committee shall debate the two amendments together in a joint debate. I will call upon the Chief Secretary to speak on the amendment proposed by Mrs Miriam LAU as well as her own amendment, but will not ask the Chief Secretary to move her amendment unless Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment has been negatived. If Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment is agreed, that will by implication mean that the Chief Secretary's proposed amendment is not approved.

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr Chairman, as I mentioned in my Second Reading speech, our amendment to clause 14 is to restrict its scope and to provide that the prosecution for an offence under this clause will not be brought without the written consent of the Attorney General. The reason for preserving this clause is to protect the privacy of applicants for legal aid and legally aided persons. We do not agree that the clause should be deleted and I urge Members to vote against Mrs LAU's amendment.

CHAIRMAN: Members may now debate the amendment by Mrs Miriam LAU as well as the amendment proposed by the Chief Secretary. Does any Members wish to speak? Chief Secretary, do you wish to speak again?

CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr Chairman, I have given the reasons for my amendment in my earlier speech. I urge Members not to support Mrs LAU's amendment.

MRS MIRIALM LAU: Mr Chairman, I agree that the proposed amendment put forward by the Administration is an improvement to the original clause but is not far enough. The Chief Secretary has not in her original speech, nor in her speech at the Committee stage, responded to the argument of the Bills Committee that adequate protection of the privacy of applicants for legal aid or legally aided persons can be achieved by contractual methods or by undertaking sought from the members and staff of the Legal Aid Services Council. The Administration has also failed to put forth convincing arguments as to why nothing short of criminal sanction would deter unauthorized disclosure of information. Nor has it demonstrated that, as a result of experience, such a measure is absolutely necessary.

In such circumstances, I urge Members to support my proposed amendment.

Question on the amendment put and agreed to.

CHAIRMAN: Chief Secretary, as Mrs LAU's amendment has been agreed, you may not move you proposed amendment to clause 14 as it is inconsistent with the decision already taken.

Question on clause 14, as amended, put and agreed to.

KADOORIE AGRICULTURAL AID LOAN FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to.

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1995

Clauses 1 to 5 and 7 to 14 were agreed to.

Clause 6

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr Chairman, I move that Clause 6 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

The first amendment seeks to clarify the application of the proposed section 23C(2B). The amendment puts beyond doubt that the income of a Hong Kong airline derived from the agreement country under a double taxation relief arrangement with that country, and the uplifts in Hong Kong, will all be subject to tax.

As regards the second amendment which relates to the Chinese text of the new sections 23C(2A) and 23C(2D), it makes sure that the Chinese text reflects accurately the legislative intent. It amends the two new sections to have the reference "any sum derived from, attributable to, or in respect of " applicable to the types of carriage and charter hire as described in the two sections.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 6

That clause 6 be amended, in the proposed section 23C(2B), by adding "in determining the relevant sums earned by or accrued to a person for the purposes of that subsection" after "then".

That clause 6(a) be amended ¢w

(a) in the Chinese text, by deleting the proposed subsection (2A) and substituting -

(b) in the Chinese text, by deleting the proposed subsection (2D) and substituting -

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clause 6, as amended, put and agreed to.

New clause 1A Application of amendments

effected by section 6

Clause read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).

SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr Chairman, I move that new clause (1A) as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read the Second time.

The amendments to section 23C on airline income enable us to tax the income of Hong Kong airlines which is earned from international traffic attributable to an agreement country. The new clause enables such amendments to take effect in accordance with the implementation dates as specified in the terms of the double taxation relief arrangements. The effective date may be, depending on individual cases, prior to the enactment of the Bill. The intention of adding this new clause is to enable double taxation relief to airlines to take effect as early as possible.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question on the Second Reading of the clause proposed, put and agreed to.

Clause read the Second time.

SECRETART FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr Chairman, I move that new clause 1A be added to the bill.

Proposed addition

New clause 1A

That the Bill be amended, by adding ¢w

"1A. Application of amendments

effected by section 6

Notwithstanding section 1(2), the amendments to section 23C of the principal Ordinance effected by section 6 of this Ordinance shall, in respect of any arrangement with an arrangement territory as defined in section 23C of the principal Ordinance following its amendment by this Ordinance, be deemed to apply and to have always applied in accordance with the terms specified in that arrangement.".

Question on the addition of the new clause proposed, put and agreed to.

Council then resumed.

Third Reading of Bills

THE CHIEF SECRETARY reported that the

LEGAL AID SERVICES COUNCIL (NO. 2) BILL

had passed through Committee with amendments. She moved the Third Reading of the Bill.

Question on the Third Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

THE SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES reported that the

KADOORIE AGRICULTURAL AID LOAN FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL 1996

had passed through Committee without amendment. He moved the Third Reading of the Bill.

Question on the Third Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY reported that the

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1995

had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bill.

Question on the Third Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

MEMBER'S MOTIONS

PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates and Members were informed by circular on 29 April. The movers of the motions will each have 15 minutes for their speeches including their final replies, and another five minutes to speak on the proposed amendments, if any. Other Members, including the movers of the amendments, will each have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.

INDEBTEDNESS OF POLICE OFFICERS

MR AMBROSE LAU to move the following motion:

"That this Council is deeply concerned about the increasing indebtedness of police officers in recent years and, as the burden of debts on police officers would affect them in performing their duties as well as the morale and clean and honest image of the Police Force, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously inquire in depth into the reasons for the increasing borrowing by police officers and to consider and formulate policies which can effectively solve the problem, in order to boost public confidence in the Police Force and uphold its image in maintaining public order and protecting citizens."

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Hong Kong Police Force have for long established an image as a highly efficient Force and the protector of the people, thus winning the trust of the community. A Police Force with high morale and clean reputation is of paramount importance to the stability and prosperity of the territory. However, in recent years, the undebtedness problem of police officers has aroused public concern. When a Member of this Council made inquiries to the Government about the matter, it was learned that the problem did exist, though fortunately, not too serious.

However, considering the importance of the Police Force to the stability and prosperity of Hong Kong, I urge the Government to tackle the problem in the first instance so as to prevent "a small leak" from sinking "a great ship", even though the current indebtedness of police officers is not very serious. I urge that the Government should prudently and expeditiously look into the matter and formulate effective policies to solve the problem.

Mr President, I regret to say that the Government has not been attaching sufficient attention to the above problem in the Police Force, nor has it formulated any effective policies to solve the problem. The problem is therefore allowed to aggravate among some police officers. It has been said that a government which "pays attention to even the smallest issues could be win over the extensiveness of the world." The Government should give some thoughts to this profound logic.

Mr President, the basis for the formulation of effective policies to tackle the problem is to lose no time in taking practical measures to find out why police officers have to raise debts.

Our Police Force is shouldering the heavy responsibility of maintaining law and order in a complicated metropolitan city. It has to wrestle with the force of crime, face danger and bear tremendous work stress.

As the heavy pressure upon our Police Force is increasing by the day, it is logical that some police officers would have to find outlets to alleviate or release the tensions and pressure they are subjected to. However, it is also for the same reason that some officers who are incapable of managing their money matters and are frequent visitors to entertainment grounds to spend more than they can afford. Those who are not aware of their spending limits have to resort to borrowing. In his reply to a question raised by a Member of this Council, the Secretary for Security clearly admitted that "uncontrolled spending and indulgence in gambling are the main reasons why police officers are indebted and are unable to repay their debts."

Mr President, the Secretary only admitted that uncontrolled spending and gambling are the reasons for the debt problems, he, however, failed to dig deep enough into the causes. The Government must try to find out ways to release tension and eliminate those inducement leading to the bad habit of over-spending and gambling among police officers. As the saying goes, "prevention is better than cure", hence all levels of the management of the Force should strengthen communication with their staff members with a view to helping them release the tensions and stress arising from their work. For instance, the Force can organize various kinds of recreational activities and leisure trips on one hand, and be mindful in providing psychological counselling services on the other. Whilst imposing strict discipline, the Force's management culture should add in a caring element of humanitarianism, which care should include both mental and financial support.

When discharging their duties, all members of our Police Force have dedicated without reservation their determination, courage and perseverance, and the psychological pressure they are subject to is very great, as a result, some of them need the assistance of clinical psychologists to adjust themselves. However, what astonishes people is that, at present, there are only two clinical psychologists for the entire Force which comprises some 27 000 full-time policemen and 7 000-odd auxiliary policemen. In other words, the psychologist-to-police officer ratio is almost 1:17 000. What does the figure of this ratio tell us? It tells us that the Government does not care about our police officers and ignores their needs. Our Police Force is the mainstay in maintaining law and order, the Government should never shirk its responsibility on grounds of inadequate resources. Police officers wishing to receive "treatment" have to wait six to eight weeks for an appointment with the clinical psychologist. As immediate or timely treatment is not available, we do not dismiss the possibility that some police officers whose psychological pressure are not yet released or their problems not yet tackled will resort to over-spending or gambling for the sake of relief and relaxation.

In this case, the Government should increase the number of clinical psychologists for the Force to a reasonable level so that every officer in need of help could receive timely treatment.

In addition, the management side in the Force should attend to the financial problems of the staff and further enhance the positivity in the functions of the Police Credit Union (the Union).

When a police officer borrows from the Union, the spirit of mutual help within the Force will be manifested. This should be a good thing. Under the existing system, the borrower has to go through an assessment process conducted by an assessment committee of the Union. However, as the assessors are volunteers from within the Force, they could be the borrower's colleagues or supervisors. This would undoubtedly cause embarrassment to the borrower. In addition, as there are certain formalities and procedures governing the granting of loans, it may not be possible for the Union to provide the "urgent monetary relief" to some police officers within a short time. As such, the Government should allocate more resources to recruit non-Force personnel to run the Union, so as to prevent needy officers who wish to avoid embarrassment or to save the time consuming procedures from resorting to finance companies which charge high interest rates. This measure could prevent police officers from being bothered by their loan repayment difficulties which have shown to generate other problems.

As regards those officers who are unable to repay their debts, the Government should make special arrangements to lift them from their plights. Consideration could be given to the establishment of a special task force staffed by officials from departments other than the Police Force to help the heavily indebted officers to compose their debts. One way of such is to transfer the debts due to finance companies to the Union. This could release the debtors concerned from their heavy interest burdens, thereby helping them out of their never-ending debts.

Mr President, in his reply to a question raised by a Member of this Council, the Secretary for Security said that as the Police Force did not require its staff to report details of their personal loans, hence it was not possible for the management to know about of the real situation relating to the indebtedness of its staff.

It is learnt that in every police district, there is a "staff relations officer" who would, together with the squad leaders, handle all communication and liaison works within the district or with relevant subordinates, with a view to helping police officers solve the problems and difficulties they encounter in their work and in their daily lives. In general, both the "staff relations officer" and the squad leader are supervisors of the officers concerned. Although they hold interviews with that officer in the absence of a third party, everything discussed during the interviews has to be recorded officially for future reference. Under such conditions, how can an officer, fully inflicted with debt problems, feel free to tell his supervisor everything and be expected to find out solutions to his problems together?

The existing mode of supervision can neither understand fully nor find out clearly the extent of liability of police officers, hence it cannot help the indebted officers out of their predicament. In view of such, the Government should consider deploying a group of social workers from the Social Welfare Department to act as "counsellors". As these "counsellors" do not belong to the establishment of the Police Force, this could save the embarrassment of the party concerned on the one hand while removing their worries on the other. So officers can feel at ease to disclose problems in relation to their work, their financial situation, their family lives, and even emotional problems. When police officers do not have to hide their problems, it will not give way to other more serious problems. For the "counsellors", instead of reporting to the Police Force, their major duty is to offer appropriate advice and recommendations to officers to help them solve their problems, and to counsel police officers on the wholesome and beneficial concepts in life.

Mr President, to find out in a practical way the reasons why officers are indebted and to consider and formulate against the findings measures and policies to solve the problem would have a bearing on the law enforcement power of the Police Force and the clean reputation it enjoys among the people. Hong Kong is among one of the safest metropolitan cites in the world. This is attributable solely to the good morale of our police officers and their dedication to their work, which is to maintain law and order and to protect the lives and properties of our residents. In view of these, I urge that the Government should solve the problem prudently and expeditiously before it deteriorates further, and help those police officers who are unable to manage their money matters properly to live complacently and enjoy their work.

Mr President, with these remarks, I beg to move.

Question on the motion proposed.

MR DAVID CHU: Mr President, we have a dedicated force responsible for our low crime rate and social stability. The worse we can do in this instance is to cloud the reputation of the police based on alarmist press stories which followed the Director of Audit's report on the subject of debts three years back.

Our police today can secure loans from their own credit union which has around 20 000 shareholders who on average has $16,000 in deposits each. About one officer in five has a loan with the Police Credit Union. As far as I can ascertain, the default on loans is incredibly low by any standard.

Do you believe that of the 73 000 loans the Police Credit Union made for a sum of more than $1.3 billion between 1981 and the end of 1994, only $56,000 were bad debts? As of the first quarter of this year, the Police Credit Union has approved loans of only $131 million ¢w which is hardly a serious debt problem for a force of almost 30 000.

Most of the loans taken out are to pay for medical fees, home renovations, income tax demands, wedding banquets, children's overseas education expenses and family emergencies.

What is more, most policemen are model debtors and would be valued customers if they give their business to their nearby banks. On average, each officer owes less than $10,000 to the Police Credit Union. This surely is not the picture portrayed in the media of many policemen saddled with debts for frivolous things.

Yes, policemen do also borrow from their welfare fund, which is another source of loans, but the amount lent is small. The fund was founded after the 1967 riots to boost their morale.

Back in September 1994, the Commissioner of Police, Mr Eddie HUI explicitly rejected the legislators' demand that officers disclose their debts on the premise that they should enjoy basic privacy. The fact is the policemen are adults, not children, and should be allowed to make their own mature judgements regarding their finances just like us, except where they have violated the law. The presumption of innocence applies to them too.

To be frank, what we are really concerned about is not legitimate debts. We are worried that more and more policemen are prone to borrowing from crooks to pay for gambling debts and other vices. We are afraid that being in debt makes our officers more susceptible to corruption. We are fearful that the policemen's proximity to criminals is having a negative moral effect on them.

To be fair, we must realize that it is us who put the policemen in this situation. They are there as our protective buffer against criminals and it is therefore our obligation to extend help to them, financial and moral, against the dangers to which they are exposed in the line of duty.

Instead of having Members of this Council intrude into the matter, would it not be better to leave the problem to the force which is more sensitive to the issue and better equipped than we are to deal with it? This is, first and foremost, a police internal problem. The police are doing something about it right now. They are already identifying officers in the force with heavy debts, providing counselling, holding periodic seminars and disciplining the chronic abusers. I would like this Council not to intervene which would only complicate the job of the force. The police need our support and understanding.

I endorse the motion today, but on the condition that the Council does not, out of good intention, meddle in the police's own disciplinary measures and action. If we are to uphold the image of the police, as the motion says, then we must let the force get on with the job and demonstrate to the public how it can put its own house in order.

Thank you, Mr President.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, early this year, the indebtedness of police officers received extensive coverage in local newspapers. There were reports on several hundred officers borrowing from the same private finance company and officers found to be heavily in debt or unable to repay outstanding credit card loans. These reports, coupled with several cases involving officers suspected of killing themselves because of indebtedness, have suddenly turned the indebtedness of police officers into a much heated issue for the society.

Since the Police Force belongs to the disciplinary forces, all sectors of society have higher expectations for the conduct and behaviour of police officers. It is understandable that the public expressed grave concern over the issue of the indebtedness of police officers. However, before debating on the topic of police loans today, Members must first find out the reasons behind these police loans and the way police officers choose to borrow before any fair comment can be made.

If police officers are taking out manageable loans through legitimate and normal channels for such proper reasons as paying tax, purchasing property, purchasing cars, sending children abroad to receive education or financing private matters like weddings or funerals, I believe that every member of the public will find it acceptable. Such kind of normal loans should be deemed as the police officers' personal affairs with which outsiders and even the Royal Hong Kong Police Force (RHKPF) have no cause to interfere. If, however, officers become heavily in debt due to lavish spending or gambling and finally become insolvent and lose their zeal in work, thereby resulting in a negative impact on our law and order, the state of affairs would then become a problem, thence the RHKPF must face the problem squarely and work out a solution without delay.

Although so far there has been no sufficient evidence or clear signs showing that the phenomenon of extensive borrowings by police officers is aggravating by the day, it does not mean we can ignore the problem. On the contrary, it is imperative for the Government and the RHKPF to expeditiously consider the issue and work out effective measures to thoroughly solve the problem before it worsens. It is always more effective in tackling a problem by taking precaution than by resorting to belated action.

One of the main causes leading to the incurment of huge debts by police officers, is their indulgence in gambling, which is closely related to the nature of work undertaken by police officers. In their daily work, police officers often have to make decisions between life and death, and are subject to enormous work stress. After work, too, they need to face pressures from their families. As police officers have all along impressed people with their strong and resolute image, they will find it shameful to seek help from others when they are in difficulty. Consequently, they can only bury their anxieties deep in their hearts, having no outlets to vent their feelings. Some police officers would resort to drinking or gambling for that momentary oblivion or for the momentary pleasure derived from leaving their work stress behind. However, they will easily encounter financial difficulties if they run out of luck and lose all their bets. Should they fail to discontinue gambling or to pull themselves back promptly before it is too late, they would eventually fall into the traps set by loan-shark companies. Finally, they will be unable to pay the huge debts incurred, thereby giving cause for insurmountable tragedies, which will in turn jeopardize the overall tranquillity of society.

To effect a radical cure for the indulgence of police officers in gambling, effective means must be found to help them alleviate their stress. Although two psychologists have been employed by the Police Force for providing counselling service, they have failed to provide effective assistance to the police officers for two reasons. Firstly, it is simply impossible for two psychologists to cater for the needs of all the officers employed in such a huge establishment.

Secondly, police officers who have a real need for counselling may refrain from seeking help from the psychologists for fear that the relevant information should fall into the hands of their superiors, thereby compromising their promotion prospects in future. For these reasons, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) urges that the RHKPF should increase the number of psychologists. Moreover, it proposes that the Psychological Services Unit should be independent of the RHKPF establishment so that the information of all police officers seeking help can be kept confidential, thereby encouraging the officers in need to solve their problems through proper channels.

Although the RHKPF has been organizing after-work activities that are beneficial to the bodies and souls of officers and providing them with recreational facilities, such activities and facilities are not extensive enough as they are mostly targetted at officers of more senior ranks. For this reason, the DAB requests the RHKPF to allocate additional resources to organize more recreational activities and procure more relevant facilities. The scope of services should also be extended to each and every police officer so that he can relax his body and mind and alleviate his stress through particpating in the activities.

I so submit. Thank you.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the '70s, the Police Force has gradually established an honest image. The police in Hong Kong ranks among the world's tops in terms of detection rate. Its efficiency and discipline are much applauded by the community. However, in recent years, many police officers have been borrowing money and as loans raised by police officers tend to increase, and this inevitably gives cause for people to feel worried. Police officers unable to repay their debts may have their efficiency in work adversely effected and may be easily induced, in their desperation, to risk danger and to accept bribes. In the extreme case, they may fall prey to manipulation by criminal gangs. This will cast an unfavourable shadow over the maintenance of law and order in Hong Kong.

In recent years, there has been a tremendous increase in the loans provided by the Police Credit Union to police officers. This is still not too worrying. However, if police officers borrow huge sums from external financial institutions or even borrow from illegal lending syndicates, then, the problem is quite serious. According to a survey done by the police, the main causes of indebtedness of police officers are over-spending and gambling. Gambling is rather popular among police officers. I do not rule out the possibility that some police officers gamble in the hope of relieving tension and reducing work stress. People are also concerned with the life style led by police officers, in particular that of the rank and file and young officers. A significant number of these officers have picked up squandering. They spend more than they can afford with their income. They are also subject to all kinds of temptation as their work involves contact with people of dubious character, and also visits to brothels, gambling houses and other public places of entertainment. In a word, the management level in the Police Force and the Security Branch should look into the causes for the formation of this tendency in squandering and indulgence in gambling and then formulate all types of appropriate policies. They should also make efforts to complement these policies by strengthening communication between the management and the staff, providing wholesome cultural and recreational activities, psychological counselling, improving the management culture, and manifesting team spirit of the Police Force.

Mr President, although the police stressed that immediate supervisors of indebted officers were given guidelines to closely monitor the reasons for the indebtedness of these officers, as well as the amounts they owed and their ability to repay, while these guidelines were revised in mid-1995 to enhance the ability of management staff to identify and deal with insolvent police officers, I still think it is not enough. The Police Force should devise a confidential system for officers to report loans raised, such that when police officers borrow an amount exceeding their salary by a certain percentage, they will have to declare details of their indebtedness and to give reasons for making the loan. Although the police have queried whether this will constitute intrusion into the privacy of officers concerned on the basis of the Bill of Rights, Mr President, it is not asking too much to require police officers who borrowed more than they could afford with their income to declare details of their indebtedness because the personal security of the citizens public, the security of their property and social stability are all dependent upon a highly disciplined and honest Police Force.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the Honourable Ambrose LAU's motion. Thank you.

MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, today our debate is on the indebtedness of police officers. I believe the Honourable Ambrose LAU has moved this motion with a positive spirit. We want to discuss this issue because we care about the Hong Kong Police Force, which is a pivot for the well being of Hong Kong. After listening to the Honourable CHEUNG Hon-chung's speech, I find myself in total agreement with it. To avoid repetition, I think I can cut short my speech substantially.

I believe what we are discussing is about those officers who are unable to manage or repay their debts. We are not discussing about legitimate loans that the borrowers can handle and repay. Indeed, this is a very complicated problem, and it will not be easy for us to see the whole picture clearly. In the absence of a compulsory reporting system, we can only have a rough idea of the gravity of the problem through other peripheral evidence.

First of all, a survey by the Royal Hong Kong Police Force reveals that in the second half of 1994, there were 145 cases of heavy indebtedness or inability to repay. The number of such cases in 1995 was 132. In today's report by the Public Accounts Committee, it is said that the number has dropped to 87. I believe that the trend is on a decling. As regards the reasons leading to these cases, about 15% of the cases were apparently attributed to gambling and 37% to overspending. Secondly, let us look at the problem of indebtedness of police officers. Another indicator, the Director of Audit's Report of 1993, shows that 8% of staff in the Police Force have received garnishee orders while the total percentage of income tax payers in Hong Kong who have received such orders is 10%. A comparison between police officers and other civil servants shows that actually the percentage of other civil servants who have received such orders is about 4%. This seems to suggest that the number of garnishee orders received by police officers is twice the number received by other civil servants. Hence, this is yet another indicator reflecting the nature of the problem. Thirdly, we need to look at the formal and informal contacts between supervisors and their subordinates. These include the number of reports made by finance companies to the supervisors of those officers who have run into financial difficulties. However, no accurate figures are available to reflect this situation.

As far as the figures we have are concerned, we cannot judge whether the problem is absolutely very serious or there is absolutely no problem at all. It is impossible for us to draw a conclusion accordingly. All we can say is, as a positive step, we hope the Security Branch and the Royal Hong Kong Police Force can have a pre-emptive system to enable us to detect the problem at an early stage should such a problem arise or should the situation deteriorate. Thus, the need for a reporting system is worthy of our consideration. A reporting system would involve human rights. We cannot rashly ask all officers to report all their debts. I personally feel that we can consider asking for a report under certain special circumstances. I hope the Government can explore along this direction and consider whether it is necessary and feasible to establish such a pre-emptive system without violating human rights.

Let me try to give an illustration. First, if a police officer needs to obrain an advance in salary, the Government as a creditor would of course need to consider his ability to repay. So it is only reasonable that the applicant should declare details of his indebtedness. Second, if the Inland Revenue Department needs to withhold a police officer's salary, there should also be an objective indicator for it to ask the officer concerned to declare his indebtedness on security grounds. However, such declaration should not necessarily lead to any disciplinary action or treatment, provided that the officer can give a satisfactory explanation. Third, I can think of some cases that can be regarded as acts of bankruptcy such as those contained in the Bankruptcy Ordinance. Fourth, the debts have been in arrears to the extent that they are beyond repayment. This is more difficult to decide as the amount of debts that police officers at different ranks can incur may be different. But I think a certain number of months' salary can be taken as a reference standard for that extent.

Ultimately, what I can think of is whether we should still help the police officer if he is as indebted as this? I think we should, as a matter of general principle, help those as far as possible, and to save as much as we can. I will be a supporter of this viewpoint. However, if we find that our advice has proved futile or we feel that we cannot offer help any more, we must take broad and decisive actions. As regards the ways to help them, I think the solutions suggested by Mr Ambrose LAU, such as debt-composition, are feasible and worthy of consideration. As for counselling, two Members said just now that it was obviously insufficient, to which I totally agree. The Honourable Michael HO has indicated a number of times in this Council that he hoped the Government could allocate more resources for creating the post of clinical psychologist in order to provide counselling service to police officers. However, it seems there has not been any increase in resources in the past few years, though one additional clinical psychologist was recruited through internal reallocation of resources. I believe even if we look at the number of cases again, we can see that there is an obvious inadequacy. I hope the Security Branch can give special consideration to this situation in the next financial year.

To solve the problem once and for all by changing the consumer culture and way of life of police officers is by no means easy, because it has been a long-standing practice for police officers to come into contact with people of dubious backgrounds, and ample time will be needed to bring about a change. I also understand that police officers often come into contact with people at risk and we cannot expect these people, who are living in a world entirely different from ours, to be as innocent as we are. Therefore, it can be said that, for the purpose of carrying out their duties, police officers must lead such a life style in order to facilitate information collection and so on. We have to appreciate their situation.

Lastly, I hope the Security Branch can give careful consideration to the above suggestions and formulate a comprehensive policy to provide us with an efficient pre-emptive system that can alert us as to when a problem will develop into a serious one.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am speaking on behalf of the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL). As the saying goes, it takes more than one cold day for the river to freeze three feet deep. The problem of police officers' securing heavy loans which are beyond their ability to repay has not arisen all of the blue. It has started to accumulate a long time ago.

Over the past three years, the loans granted by the Police Credit Union have increased from $300 million in 1993 to $340 million in 1994, and then to $430 million in 1995. These figures, representing only the tip of the iceberg, cannot indicate clearly how much money police officers have borrowed. Up till now, the actual amount that police officers have borrowed elsewhere remained a mystery. Surprisingly, 500 police officers of the Kowloon West Region are found to be the "clients" of the same finance company operated by a person who have threatened senior public officers on numerous occasions. The frequent cases of police officers committing suicides recently because of financial problems show that the problem is very serious.

The problem of indebtedness of police officers has aroused widespread concern because the work of the Police Force is related to the interests of the community. Assuming the responsibility to "manifest justice and enforce the law", the Police Force require not only co-operation from the public, but also their confidence. For police officers who are not able to repay their debts, those who are weak in the mind may be disheartened and take a pessimistic and world-weary view of life, which may finally lead them onto the path of self-destruction. Others may choose to take risks, to play the game of corruption and knowingly violate the law. No matter whether the police officers have chosen to end their lives or to co-operate with undesirable elements, whatever they do will seriously undermine the morale of the Police Force as well as the confidence of the public.

In order to solve the problem, one should first understand the reasons behind the indebtedness of police officers. Gambling, legal or otherwise, is very popular in Hong Kong. Spending advanced money is also a spending culture in the capitalist society. Incurring debts in the form of making payments in instalments or by using credit cards has become an inseparable part of life. Police officers, who are also members of society, would sometimes find it inevitable to drift with the tide and be affected unconsciously by the atmosphere of society.

The Security Branch should directly face up to the seriousness of the indebtedness of police officers. It should not evade the problem, nor should it act perfunctorily by saying that "the problem is not that serious" or "there are bound to be withered branches in a big tree". Admitting the problem is the first step to solving it.

The ADPL suggests that the Police Force should strengthen its internal management, unity and discipline and build up a close working relationship between superiors and their subordinates. The building of such relationship involves mutual trust, adequate communication, understanding and appreciation, which is a way of uplifting the morale and reinforcing cohesion among police officers.

Second, the strengthening of education and counselling. Police officers should be encouraged to cultivate more and healthier interests and hobbies to prevent them from indulging in gambling. The Police Force should also organize some useful counselling sessions for police officers in order to guide and educate them to build up sound financial management and spending concepts. This would prevent them from getting into financial crises because of poor management of their finances.

Finally, the ADPL suggests that the Government should formulate effective and long-term policies, and allocate more resources so as to prevent the problem of indebtedness of police officers from worsening further.

These are my remarks.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I completely agree with Members that once a police officer gets himself into financial crisis because of heavy debts, not only will his personal integrity be affected, but his performance at work and the morale and honest image of the whole Police Force will also be adversely affected. We are fully aware of the need to ensure that this problem will not erode the public's confidence in the police. As the Chief Secretary has said earlier, it is most important to maintain a team of civil servants whose honesty and efficiency are generally recognized by the public.

The Commissioner of Police has always put in place a stringent policy on the indebtedness of police officers. Police officers have to handle their personal finance very carefully and the Police Force also encourages its officers to maintain a healthy and upright life-style. Therefore, the police has formulated a comprehensive set of guidelines for preventing, identifying and dealing with police officers' indebtedness. This policy includes holding lectures and seminars on indebtedness and personal financial management for the new recruits and serving police officers. When necessary, the police will also provide them with individual counselling service.

Earlier, a Member has mentioned the relationship between the police officers' indebtedness and suicides. Since 1990, a total of 24 police officers have committed suicide and eight of the cases may have been involved with a certain extent of financial difficulty experienced by the officers. The reasons for the police officers to commit suicide are very complicated but it is believed that stress plays a major role. The fact that police officers encounter unpredictable and perhaps life-threatening circumstances every day, coupled with the public's making mounting demands on the police, have brought about work pressure. The police are already taking active measures to help officers cope with such pressure, which include promoting peer and community support, providing training on stress management, holding appropriate sports and recreational activities, extending welfare services to the officers' families, as well as providing suitable job arrangements to the officers suffering from ill-health. The police also plans to create another position of clinical psychologist within the Police Force to counsel officers on how to cope with stress. These clinical psychologists will observe very strictly their code of practice and will not leak any protected information to a third party.

The Police Force has also issued a set of administrative guidelines setting out the steps by which the various management levels in the Police Force monitor and handle the officers' indebtedness. The police will also compile a schedule on the basis of their past experience in dealing with the cases of officers' indebtedness so as to make the management more alert to the extent of the officers' indebtedness.

In addition, biennial surveys are conducted by the police to closely scrutinize the situation of police officers' insolvency. According to a recent survey, the number of cases where police officers are insolvent have dropped from 145 in the second half of 1994 to 132 in the first half of 1995 and has even dropped to 87 in the second half of 1995. Although the number of cases where police officers are insolvent keeps falling, we have not lowered our guard. Since Members and the public are very much concerned about this situation, the Commissioner of Police will report the results of further surveys to the Panel on Security of this Council on a regular basis.

Apart from the above strategy, the Administration have many effective measures to ensure that the police officers, whether they are heavily in debt or not, will not be manipulated by criminals. These measures include:

Firstly, if police officers are deployed to positions such as the anti-triad units or the anti-vice units and they have to handle sensitive matters, they are subject to scrutiny to ensure that only officers with good conduct can take up such posts;

secondly, the Police General Orders clearly states that other than carrying out their duties, police officers are not allowed to mingle with persons whom they know to be criminals or triad members. Once an officer is proved to have such behaviour, he will be subject to disciplinary action;

thirdly, if police officers are deployed to positions which require them to handle sensitive matters, usually they are not allowed to remain in such positions for a long time;

fourthly, officers belonging to different units may carry out raids and arrests in other divisions, police districts or Regions; and

finally, the Administration will also review the organizational structure of the Police Force from time to time to eliminate any chances of corruption.

We are also concerned that when some police officers are heavily in debt and are unable to pay them, this may lead to the practice of corruption in the police. I can pledge to Members that we are determined to crack down on corruption in the Police Force. Actually, the fact that some corruption cases were brought to light as a result of police operations has clearly revealed our determination to tackle this problem. Last year, we set up the Force Anti-Corruption Strategy Steering Committee to study the comprehensive execution of the measures to clean up corruption in the police. The main functions of the Committee include locating and eliminating the chances of corruption in the existing operational system and carrying out measures to counteract its negative effects on the police. At the moment, we have made a steady progress in respect of the work in the various areas and the Committee is now laying down the Code of Ethics for the police.

Some Members suggest that the police should require all officers to declare details of their indebtedness in order to monitor their indebtedness closely. But as far as I know, it would be an invasion of privacy to require all police officers to declare their debts and is also in breach of clause 14 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance which protects the privacy of all Hong Kong people. Even if we put this declaration system into effect, we may not be able to achieve our expected goal as this system relies on the police officers to take the initiative to declare details of their indebtedness. A compulsory declaration system may even produce adverse effects on the morale of the police.

Members also express their concern about the fact that police officers become insolvent as a result of gambling and squandering. I pledge to Members that the Police Force have paid very close attention to the matter. The Police Force does not encourage its officers to gamble and it is also stated very clearly in the Police General Orders that police officers shall not engage in illegal gambling or gamble within the premises of various institutions of the Police Force; if police officers are found to have violated this provision, they will be subject to disciplinary action. In the past two years, a total of 13 police officers were suspended from their duties because of gambling and disciplinary action were taken against another 14. Police officers are also liable to criminal proceedings or disciplinary proceedings instituted by the Administration if they are found to have mismanaged their finance or borrowed money through illegal means. In the past two years, disciplinary action was instituted for the two reasons above against nine and five police officers respectively.

Today's debate clearly shows that Members and the public earnestly hope that the Police Force can continue to provide quality services, maintain their good image and be cautious and avoid letting a few black sheep among them tarnish their reputation. Members may rest assured that we will continue to work hard towards this goal. We are fully aware that an honest Police Force which has high integrity is a pre-requisite for keeping people free from worry and maintaining public order. We are determined to maintain a professional and well-respected Police Force which can provide people with quality services at this time when we are straddling 1997. The Commissioner of Police will also continue to pay close attention to the above situation and, when necessary, he will take appropriate further actions.

Thank you, Mr President.

PRESIDENT: Mr Ambrose LAU, you are now entitled to reply and you have five minutes 47 seconds, out of your original 15 minutes.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not intend to reply.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

ELDERLY POLICY

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG to move the following motion:

"That this Council urges the Government to expeditiously come up with a comprehensive plan for the care of "the elderly at risk", taking into consideration their health problems, financial needs, residential needs and the need for social support, in particular during crisis situations, so as to secure a dignified old age for this group of senior citizens."

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing under my name on the Order Paper.

This motion debate moved by me today on the issue of old people is in itself an "old" issue. In the past two Legislative Council sessions alone, this issue was debated for as many as seven times; and if we include the debates on retirement protection, there were as many as 16 motion debates on this issue.

Every time when the Government responded to these motion debates, it invariably spoke with high-sounding eloquence, such as offering the elderly "a secure old age" and enabling them to lead a life with dignity in their twilight years and so on. However, if the Government has really taken any actions to fulfil its words, why are so many people still criticizing the Government? Why are more and more elderly people resorting to petitions as a means of fighting for their rights and interests? Why has there been the spate of deaths which led to huge repercussions in the community during the cold spell early this year?

Of course, I must point out that it is downright unfair to hold the Government solely responsible for the cases of deaths which occurred when illnesses fatally attacked people under a drastic fall in temperature. However, the "crisis" this time has fully exposed the Government's "piecemeal" approach, under which no effort at all has been made to draw up a thoroughly thought-out scheme to look after the "old people in crisis" (also called "old people in need of particular care" and hereinafter referred to as the "elderly at risk").

I believe that we all recognize the need for the formulation of a comprehensive policy for the elderly. Right in front of us are large numbers of elderly at risk who are confronted with crisis and who need urgent assistance. Therefore, Mr President, I have moved the motion today in the hope of focusing Members' "intensity" on the "elderly at risk". I hope that by working out a more specific, comprehensive and focused direction in respect of service provision and strategy formulation, we can compell the Government to react proactively and to do something for the "elderly at risk", who have so far been neglected.

In fact, in as early as 1988, the Government has admitted the problem of the "elderly at risk". The term "elderly at risk" refers to old people who live either alone, or amidst poor or hazardous conditions. It can also refer to old people who have to stay at home all the time because of poor physical or mental health, and those who do not know how to apply for the services they need. The term also covers old people who do not like to make use of the services available at service centres or those who are the victims of abuse. In Hong Kong, even the old people who live with their family members may at some time or under certain circumstances in their twilight years become the "elderly at risk". However, it is really disappointing to see that since 1988, the Government has done nothing to draw up a thoroughly thought-out plan for the "elderly at risk".

Just take the outreaching teams for the elderly as an example. Five years ago, the Government subvented the setting up of two outreaching teams on a pilot basis. Today, the number of such outreaching teams is still two, each with only two members. In contrast, the number of outreaching teams for youths has increased to over 30, and each team comprises 10 professional social workers. Is this contrast going to show that the Government has been practising "age discrimination"? Does it mean that the Government can resort to various excuses and turn a blind eye to old people's needs just because they are not as good at staging protests and fighting for their interests as the young people have been?

Earlier on, when responding to a Member's question, the Government said repeatedly that in order to look after the elderly at the community level, efforts would be made to develop elderly volunteers services, home help teams, community geriatric assessment teams, and psychogeriatric teams, alongside the establishment of a community network to help locate the "elderly at risk".

Of course, all these services have their own merits. However, what the Government has adopted is nothing but a slapdash approach which is suspected of "mixing fish eyes with pearls". If we are to piece together these fragmented services in an effective and systemic manner, we must first solve the following four major problems:

(1) the lack of statistics on the overall size and characteristics of the "elderly at risk", which may serve as a basis for service planning;

(2) the lack of appropriate criteria and professionals to identify and locate the "elderly at risk";

(3) the serious lack of support and follow-up services; and

(4) the lack of an effective mechanism to co-ordinate different areas of services and the work provided by various organizations.

Mr President, I will attempt to put forward solutions to these four problems. As far as the lack of statistics is concerned, while the Government claims that it will take care of the "elderly at risk", it does not even know the exact number of the "elderly at risk". In this case, how can plans be formulated and estimations made on the services to be provided for them in future? I understand that the Government has commissioned a consultancy study on the need of the elderly for community support services and accommodation. However, the study will take 12 to 15 months to complete, and we just do not know how long we will have to wait, even if it is completed, before its recommendations are implemented. Is it a kind of delaying tactics? Will the "elderly at risk" be so fortunate that they can wait as long as 12 to 15 months? If the Government were really sincere in taking care of these "elderly at risk", it can in fact make use of a lot of statistical data that is already available. For example, we know that there is a total of 80 000 elderly living alone in Hong Kong and 82 000 elderly persons are receiving Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) payment. According to the information supplied by the Accident and Emergency (A&E) Departments of various hospitals, on average, every aged person seeks treatment from the A&E Departments once a year. Why is it impossible for the Government to provide services to these "elderly at risk" in the first instance? Why is it impossible to launch these services in the "aging districts" of Hong Kong in the first instance?

Second, the identification of the "elderly at risk". Following the cold spell that led to many deaths, government officials have repeatedly stressed the significance of the traditional Chinese virtue of offering "neighbourhood assistance". They have also emphasized the need to further promote the Volunteer Workers Programme. All these words sound very appealing, but the front-line workers engaged in outreaching services tell us that many of the "elderly at risk" do not want to come into contact with people. In that case, how can the volunteer workers locate them? In addition, how can volunteer workers be expected to have the professional expertise to understand and analyse old people's needs? What the Government should do is to promote the Volunteer Workers Programme on the one hand, and employ additional professional social workers on the other, so that initiatives can be made to locate and serve these "elderly at risk", instead of shirking its responsibility and using volunteer workers as a means of saving the expenses and resources to be spent on social workers.

Third, the lack of support and follow-up services. Even when the "elderly at risk" are located, all previous efforts would be in vain if timely follow-up services cannot be adequately provided.

To take an illustration from the field of medical and health care with which I am most familiar. No doubt, the Government has set up four Elderly Health Centres (EHCs). However, who will want to take old people to these relatively remote EHCs for medical check-ups and health care seminars? Even when health problems are detected, who will do the follow-up? Who will convey these old people to and from the specialist clinics? It is therefore not surprising that the utilization rates of these four EHCs are extremely low!

It is true that in recent years, the Government has allocated fundings to the Hospital Authority (HA) for the development of community geriatric assessment teams and psychogeriatric teams. However, according to a relatively conservative estimate of the HA, about 20% of the elderly in Hong Kong suffer from mental problems of varying degrees. In other words, at least 150 000 elderly people are in need of care in this respect. How can a mere total of eight psychogeriatric teams cope with this situation? And, since the other eight community geriatric assessment teams cannot even spare any attention for privately-run homes for the elderly, they simply cannot be expected to really take care of the "elderly at risk" in the community!

Lastly, the lack of any effective co-ordinating mechanism. To effectively attend to the various needs of the "elderly at risk", we must put in place a sound co-ordinating mechanism which should be divided into local and territory-wide levels.

At the local level, a system should immediately be set up by the Government to co-ordinate and link up all organizations which come into direct contact with the "elderly at risk" and to co-ordinate all types of welfare, medical and housing services for the elderly at the local level.

At the territory-wide level, a mechanism should be set up by the Administration to co-ordinate the work of all government departments and policy branches which are involved in matters related to the elderly. In this way, not only can this mechanism render genuine assistance to the "elderly at risk", but it can also benefit old people as a whole.

In fact, Mr President, when I moved the motion debate on "Care for the Elderly" at the end of 1991, I have already urged the Government to set up a Council for the Aged to assume a co-ordination role. However, the Government has so far turned a deaf ear to my proposal. It was not until late 1994 when the Working Group on Care for the Elderly released its recommendations that the Government finally set up an Elderly Services Division under the Health and Welfare Branch. Almost two years have passed, but, as far as we can observe, this Division has still failed to achieve anything in the various kinds of work of co-ordination and monitoring. I am not criticizing the government officials concerned for incompetence because they are hindered by an inherent constraint ¢w the Division does not have enough real power, and its status cannot enable it to co-ordinate the various kinds of work of those policy branches not under the auspices of the Health and Welfare Branch. To achieve the above purpose, we must set up a higher level Committee on Elderly Affairs with the real power to monitor and co-ordinate the various policies.

Mr President, if the Government were really sincere in taking care of the elderly, in particular the "elderly at risk", it should not sit there with folded arms, only to seek remedies after crises have occurred. The Government should act now with a view to building up a society which shows genuine concern to the elderly.

With these remarks, Mr President, I so move.

Question on the motion proposed.

PRESIDENT: As Members have been informed by circular on 29 April, Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung have separately given notices to move amendments to this motion. As there are two amendments to the motion, I propose to have the motion and the two amendments debated together in a joint debate.

Council shall now debate the motion and the amendments together in a joint debate. I will call upon Miss CHAN Yuen-han to speak first, to be followed by Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung; but no amendments are to be moved at this stage. Members may then express their views on the main motion as well as on the proposed amendments listed on the Order Paper.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, it was mentioned in the first article of the chapter entitled "Unhappiness" in the Book of Mo Zi that "People have three calamities, namely, being hungry but not fed, feeling cold but not clothed, and having laboured but not given any rest. These three situations are people's greatest calamities." This is indeed a portrayal of the situation faced by the elderly in Hong Kong. At present, quite a number of old people are living under this kind of conditions. This is not an exaggeration, but an objective reflection of the real situation. Just as Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung has mentioned when he moved his original motion, the Legislative Council has discussed the problem of the elderly many times, reflecting on the situation as what I have quoted from the first article of the chapter named "Unhappiness" in the Book of MO Zi.

Since the elderly do not have sufficient means, they try to economize on food and clothing and live as frugally as possible; as such, they would only have the cheapest food and wear the cheapest clothes. Some friends of ours do not believe that in a prosperous city like Hong Kong, there would still be elderly people who do not even have the necessary clothes to keep themselves warm. It was only when they went to distribute winter clothes to the elderly living in different districts during the Chinese New Year period then they realized that some of the elderly really did not have enough to wear. This is a portrayal of the situation of Hong Kong. In some very poor districts, some old people have to prick bean sprouts and push trolleys night and day in order to gain some meagre earnings. Why do people still have to work when they are already in their 60s or 70s? When the economic climate is not favourable, they would not even have the opportunity to work. However, because their employers understand their difficulties, they continue to employ them. This is the predicament of the elderly living in Hong Kong. They are being exploited, prejudiced against and forced to accept low-paid jobs, and they can only live helplessly without any choice. Since they are deprived of adequate nutrition and clothes, the situation which was mentioned by Dr LEONG and me resulted: many elderly people could not stand the cold spell during the Chinese New Year period and lost their lives.

My amendment is very similar to Dr LEONG's motion, but I would like to raise the point that the Government should now formulate a positive and fully prospective policy for the elderly without delay. The existing policy for the care of the elderly in Hong Kong has been stressing on the provision of community care for the elderly and helping them to live a decent life in their remaining years in their own community. I think this policy is acceptable. However, although this policy has its aims, it does not have any specific assistance and co-ordinating measures. This is just like walking into a restaurant where the manager there said they were serving buffet meal and we could choose our own food and have as much as we want, but after we have accepted the conditions, we then realized that the food on the table was too little for everyone to eat. The policy for the elderly in Hong Kong is just the same, although the Government told us that the existing networks were adequate to take care of the old people, the problems have exposed themselves when the cold front attacked Hong Kong during the Chinese New Year period. Although Hong Kong is a modernized society, its services for the elderly are far from sufficient. When the institutions providing services for the elderly try to improve their services, the resources are simply not available. "One cannot make bricks without straw", so let alone the intention to improve services for the elderly.

Providing care for the elderly through the community is undoubtedly a very good idea. The elderly can stay in the community in which they are familiar with and be taken care of by their relatives and friends, in other words, the community can fulfill all their needs. However, we have to understand that for the community to provide care, we must have sufficient support and supply of resources. To provide care for the needy elderly, we must provide sufficient support. We have to encourage residents of the same community to help one another and to cultivate a community spirit. This kind of spirit is very important, but if we do not have sufficient resources and materials, to me, everything would be reduced to empty talk. As Dr LEONG has said earlier on, some of the health care centres for the elderly are obviously in lack of support in relation to medical equipment and accommodation. Although care is provided by the community, the network is lacking. In view of what happened during the Chinese New Year period, it was obvious that we did not have any network; many old people had problems and they had many needs, but when we wanted to locate them through networks, we realized that they could not be located.

As I have said earlier on, the hazard for the elderly during the Chinese New Year period has sparked off widespread discussion in the society. We realized that when there was a hazard, the networks of some districts could not provide information for us to deal with the situation speedily, and yet the Government should be familiar with such information, which was the information of the old people living in the housing estates. What I was trying to say was, the Government has in fact been taking care of the elderly through the community, but it was only when accidents occurred then we became aware of the many defects and the fact that there was no machanism to organize the network well. If there is no network, how can community care be provided? Therefore, I think it is necessary for the Government to set up widespread networks among private premises as well as housing estates. In particular, I hope the Government would assign "hazard indices" to different districts. For instance, is it possible for the Government to link up the networks of those districts in which the old people living there are particularly poor with those which have a particularly large population of elderly people? On the other hand, could those old people in need of care be taken care of in the housing estates by the community? In addition, the Government should also set up a good network for private premises and provide comprehensive support services including emergency assistance. For all these things, we have to involve the society as a whole for consideration.

Mr President, we already have had discussions about the elderly, especially the elderly in need, in the Legislative Council on many occasions. We very much hope that the Government can really set down its target and make preparation to set up good networks so that the old people can be taken care of when they have problems. This is the service for the elderly that I hope the Government can provide.

Thank you, Mr President.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the subject for discussion of Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung's motion is , that is "the elderly at risk" in the English original. Although I did not amend this term when amending the motion, I have to point out in particular that the subject for our discussion today should not only be restricted to the old people who are on the verge of life and death.

In fact, at present, 100 000 old people are receiving the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA). However, since the requirements laid down by the Government for applying CSSA are very harsh, there are still many old people who are not CSSA recipients but are living in considerable poverty. Therefore, I have to point out that assistance should be given to the old people who are living in poverty or who are in difficulties, no matter whether they are living alone or with others, waiting for public housing or living in old folks homes.

As a matter of fact, the problem of the elderly has long been a matter of concern for Members of this Council. However, the Government has all along failed to seriously and thoroughly review the crux of the elderly problem and the needs of old people. As in the past, it would only take piecemeal and stop-gap measures. It was only when scores of old people were frozen to death early this year then the Social Welfare Department realized all of a sudden that there were still old people dying of cold spells and illness in Hong Kong and hastily looked for solutions to plug the loophole.

At present, Hong Kong is facing the problem of an ageing population. The number of people who are above 60 years of age has now reached 830 000. It is estimated that the elderly population will reach 1.17 million by 2001. Faced with such a huge number of old people, the Government lacks not only the strength to implement the Old Age Pension Scheme to rid the old people of their burdens in daily life, but also the courage to tackle the problem of abject poverty that has been plaging old people. Besides, the suicidal rate of old people remains high and the housing, medical services and care services for the elderly are still far from adequate. In addition, the Government has not had any determination to commission a radical reform, so that the problem of elderly remains a constant topic for our discussion. I really wonder when this problem can be solved.

In recent years, the unemployment rate in Hong Kong remains high and old people become the first to be thrown out of jobs. This has made life even more difficult for them. At present, 50 000 old people in Hong Kong are living in cage accommodations and bed spaces, leading lives like those of encaged animals. Besides, in 1995, 50 000 old people were still waiting for public housing units and the waiting time may take as long as seven years. The Government has often emphasized that just the care provided for the elderly living alone has already to be strengthened. However, as a matter of fact, only six public housing estates have liaison officers who are responsible for providing services to the elderly. As regards the alarm bell service which was proposed many years ago, the Government is still employing a " delaying tactic" and has not implemented the proposal in substantial terms.

As far as the health conditions of the elderly are concerned, the Government has not given specific and adequate attention either. At present, only Kwun Tong and Shek Kip Mei have elderly health centres which provide health care services to the elderly. As more and more people queue up at the out-patient units of Government hospitals, the waiting time for the elderly becomes longer, which may in turn cause their health to deteriorate.

There has been a constantly serious shortage of places in the public residential homes for the elderly and the applicants have to wait at least two years before being admitted. At present, about 14 000 old people are living in public residential homes while 16 000 or so are living in private residential homes. It is estimated that when the Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) Ordinance comes into full effect in June this year, 200 private residential homes will have to close down as a result of the failure to meet the requirements stipulated in the Ordinance and 4 000 to 5 000 old people will be affected. Thus, I think that the Hong Kong Government have to set up more public residential homes for the elderly expeditiously and allow those private residential homes which are committed in providing good residential home services to continue operating in order to prevent the elderly who need these services from being left homeless.

I agree with certain requests made by Dr LEONG, especially the requests for the Government to come up with a comprehensive plan for the elderly, taking into consideration their medical, financial, residential needs as well as the need for social support. What I am worried is that the Government will still choose to hear without listen and remain in a mark time stage. As it has been the past practice for the Government only to implement established policies. There is no inter-departmental or comprehensive planning among government departments. So far, only a Working Group on Care for the Elderly has been set up under the Social Welfare Branch, with two officers promoting the services for the elderly. However, this Working Group is not responsible for formulating policies for the elderly or playing any co-ordinating role.

In view of these, therefore, I suggest that the Government should establish an independent Committee on the Elderly to monitor the policies for the elderly adopted by various Government departments and to make suggestions accordingly. This consultative framework should be composed of representatives from the elderly associations, elderly service workers and professionals. It is only through a committee which targets at the services for the elderly then the problem of the elderly can be examined in a comprehensive manner, various surveys and studies on the elderly problem be co-ordinated, and appropriate action taken.

I hope the Government will listen to our views and set up an independent Committee on the Elderly without delay to formulate long term and effective policies for the elderly problems. Finally, I hope that my colleagues in this Council will keep up their efforts in fighting for the needs and welfare of the elderly, so that the elderly can live in complacency in their twilight years.

Mr President, with these remarks, I propose the amendment.

PRESIDENT: Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, you are not to move the amendment yet. This is a joint debate. You will be given a chance to move your amendment subsequently.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, if my colleagues are not forgetful, I believe you will remember that more than 30 people died in the cold spell during the Chinese New Year period and most of them were single elderly persons living alone. The cases shocked our community so much that they drew our attention once again to the question of whether the elderly living alone are sufficiently taken care of.

In fact, many old people today are either living alone or with their aged partners. They have not been taken care of by the younger generation. In addition, they are chronically ill, always in lack of money, are poorly informed and their social circles are small. As such, they are ill-equipped to handle all sorts of sudden changes that come by. It is really our responsibility to help these old people. I would like to speak on behalf of the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL) on two aspects, namely, the policy of community support and the emergency alarm system. Another member of the ADPL, Mr MOK Ying-fan, will speak on two other aspects, which are medical services and the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme (CSSA).

Community support services for the elderly in Hong Kong have all along been Centre-based and their major target clients are the old people who participate in the activities of the centres or who are referral cases. It is rather difficult for the centres to reach those old people who are infirm, have difficulties in moving around, or those who are rather passive and not accustomed to receiving help, and yet they are the ones who are most in need of help and most susceptible to accidents. The outreaching social workers really have to take the initiative to find out these cases and handle them, but there are, as we have at present, only two teams of outreaching social workers. I am sure we can all tell immediately how inadequate the services are. Notwithstanding this, the Government has no intention to expand these services and given the explanation that there is already a network of support formed by home helpers, outreaching medical workers, volunteers, medical social workers and social workers of the family service centres.

I doubt it very much whether this network of support can replace the work of the outreaching social workers. We all know that home helpers are not social workers, they do not have the professional knowledge in social work and cannot assess the needs of the elderly. As regards volunteers, we all know that they work on a voluntary basis and may not be able to follow up cases for a long period of time. The targets of the outreaching medical team for the elderly are mainly those old people living in residential homes. Elderly persons who are also in need but living elsewhere are not covered. To the medical social workers and the casework social workers of the family service centres, old people only take up a small percentage of their target service groups. Among the cases they deal with, only very few are involving old people.

If this network were really effective, why would there be cases of old people frozen to death during the Chinese New year? If the Government is really concerned about the needs of the elderly, it should show greater sincerity by expanding the existing services, instead of saying that the network of support is already adequate.

In addition to an effective network of support, I believe that an emergency alarm system is also very important. In countries like Sweden and the United Kingdom, alarm systems linked up with medical and nursing officers as well as the police are installed in various places for elderly activities, including private homes and residential homes. In some developed countries, the elderly at risk will also be provided with a micro hailing device to enable them to contact medical workers immediately in the event of emergencies.

For Hong Kong, the development in this respect is rather slow. For example, among households in the public housing estates, 57 000 have family members who are above 60 years old, of these, 30 000 are elderly persons living alone in their units, but only about 1 000 of them have emergency alarm system installed in their units. In addition, this system will only activate the blinking light or the alarm outside the housing unit. If neighbours have not noticed the alarm or if they are not willing to help, the elderly person concerned will not receive any emergency services even if they have activated the alarm.

As regards the Estate Liaison Officer Scheme, only 11 estates have been provided with liaison officers since 1990, but there are more than 150 housing estates all over Hong Kong. Under this scheme, ten additional housing estates would be provided with liaison officers each year, but is the progress too slow? It will still have to take the Government more than 10 years to provide all the housing estates with liaison officers for the elderly.

I urge the Government to expedite the implementation of the Estate Liaison Officer Scheme and to install the emergency alarm system for all public housing estates households with elderly members without delay. The authorities concerned should also improve on the existing emergency alarm systems and link them up with a central service centre.

With these remarks, I support Dr LEONG Che-hung's motion and the amendments proposed by the other two Members.

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the wake of its process of modernization in Hong Kong, the traditional mode of Chinese families has been breaking down and is being replaced by small nucleus families. The customary practice of respecting and supporting the elderly wanes, and coupled with the aging tendency of the population in Hong Kong, the problem of the elderly is growing more and more serious by the day. As compared with other regions which are more economically well-off, however, measures for providing services directed at the problem of the elderly are relatively inadequate in Hong Kong, and so are the relevant facilities. There is a real need for the Government to work with the voluntary groups to formulate a comprehensive policy on elderly services and a specific plan for its implementation.

At present, the number of people who are above 60 years of age is as large as 800 000 plus, representing 14.5% of the total population. If there is insufficient social support and if the basic daily needs of the elderly cannot be met to enable them to enjoy their twilight years complacently, the elderly may have to continue rendering services to society or in this way, they may even become valuable assets of society. Anyhow since a satisfactory pension system has always been lacking in Hong Kong and besides, our social welfare system has failed to attend particularly to the specific needs of the elderly, the problem has intensified.

As regards public medical services, according to the results of a recent survey on the primary health care services provided to the elderly carried out by an organization, the average waiting time it takes for an old person to obtain medical services at the general outpatient clinics is four hours, and almost four months at specialist clinics. In order to be able to meet all the expenses to be incurred in the remaining years of their life, the majority of the elderly live very frugally. It is already difficult for them to pay for three daily meals and housing, how will they have spare money to spend on medical services provided by private clinics? Therefore, they can only rely on public medical services. However, primary health care services provided for the elderly in Hong Kong is very limited at present. Most of the medical organizations would only provide nursing services to the elderly when they are ill. Besides, community nurses are short of hands. The Government should start improving the health care system for the elderly, for example, by providing medical check-ups for the elderly twice a year, just like what was done for students under the School Medical Service Scheme in the past, and when the elderly obtain medical services from doctors in private practice, they should also be subsidized.

Since some of the old people have become either limited in their cognitive ability or their intellectual capacity is declining, and they often have rather high self-esteem or are rather stubborn, few of them know how to or would take the initiative to seek help. Therefore, the problem of the elderly at risk is becoming more serious and many old people do not even know their civic rights at all. It is reported that there is a woman in her eighties who has cataract and lives in a back alley. She lives on the general old age allowance of $525 per month because she does not know she can apply for Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA). The effectiveness of the Government's publicity efforts in promoting its social services really requires contemplation on our part. It is also rather disappointing that the rate of CSSA for the elderly has not actually been increased in the budget for this financial year.

At present, there are only eight outreaching teams for the elderly, of which only two are composed of a total of four workers and are subvented by the Social Welfare Department. The Social Welfare Department has even declared that no additional resources would be allocated to expand this kind of services. This policy should really be thoroughly reviewed again.

I suggest that additional resources should be allocated by the Social Welfare Department to actively develop the Older Volunteers Programme and the Volunteer Workers Programme, and to subvent the voluntary organizations concerned to implement these two programmes. In this way, old people who are healthier can make good use of their leisure time to participate in meaningful activities. This will not only enable old people to live more meaningful lives in their twilight years but also alleviate the problem of the shortage of manpower for providing elderly services. Elderly services can also enable old people to develop a common language with the old people in order to understand their physical and psychological needs.

Progress made by the Government in providing more residential care centres for the elderly, centres for the elderly and service centres for the elderly has been slow. For a long time, the Government has only been subventing 80% of the expenditures of the centres for the elderly. As for the remaining 20%, these centres have to rely on the Community Chest for long-term subsidies. If the Community Chest were to cease subsidizing the centres for the elderly to be opened in the future, perhaps many voluntary organizations will not be able to afford such an expenditure in the long run no matter how willing they are. I hope the Social Welfare Department will consider fully subventing private organizations to build more old people's homes and centres for the elderly, and encourage the elderly living alone to move into the old people's homes so that many old people living in bed-spaces, cubicles, roof-tops or even in the back alleys and caged spaces can be more appropriately accommodated.

Mr President, I suggest that the Government should seriously consider encouraging and subventing voluntary groups to build and manage old people's homes as well as care and attention homes for the elderly in China, especially in the Pearl River Delta. Not only can this make proper use of the cheap rent and low land prices in China, but this can also fully utilize the manpower and cheaper medical costs there. It is also possible to arrange for suitable transport to facilitate travelling from Hong Kong to the old people's homes and the care and attention homes in China.

The safety of the elderly living alone in the old public housing units, temporary housing units or squatter huts is indeed worrying. I hope the Government can actively consider providing heaters and speed up the installation of "help bells" and alarm bells which are connected to emergency relief centres.

Mr President, as regards these elderly people who have made great contributions to the economic prosperity and progress of Hong Kong, not only the Government and the community, but also their relatives and friends, children and grandchildren have the responsibility of taking care of them. Their neighbours are also obliged to help. Apart from having their daily needs met, the elderly should also have their health and physical and psychological development taken care of, so that they can live in a more dignified manner for the rest of their lives.

Mr President, these are my remarks.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the focus of the motion debate today is on the provision of comprehensive care to the elderly to enable them to live their twilight years in complacency. This is in line with the policy of the Liberal Party in urging the Government to allocate more resources to look after the elderly. Members have just discussed the matter in detail, and I will not repeat the points anymore.

However, when seen from a macro-perspective, social welfare services in Hong Kong are in fact multi-faceted. Apart from the services for the elderly, there are also those offered in respect of education, youth, community and also housing, which all draw on the public coffers. The stand of the Liberal Party is that when we have to make priority choices under the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenue, we would prefer to allocate more resources to the provision of services for the elderly. This is because other social problems can be solved in some other ways as our society progresses. For example, as far as housing is concerned, some people may eventually have the ability to solve their own housing problems as the living standard of Hong Kong rises. For youth problems, young people are after all under the protection and care of their parents. And, when it comes to education, although students are unable to pay the full costs now, they will be able to do so in the future because they have high earning potentials. As for community services, they have all along been receiving abundant support from society. However, it is an undeniable fact that the population of Hong Kong is aging. The elderly people who have contributed to the prosperity of Hong Kong now find it more and more difficult for them to meet their expenses. Hence, when we have to prioritize in the course of allocating social resources, we should devote more resources to support the provision of comprehensive services for the elderly.

Based on the reason explained, the Liberal Party will vote in support of the original motion and the two amendments put forward today because they are all in line with our policy. In addition, we will not claim division or query the quorum; we merely hope that this motion can be passed.

PRESIDENT: Mr YOUNG, did you say increase in quorum or are you bringing to my attention the lack of a quorum?

MR HOWARD YOUNG: I was saying that we would vote for the motion and also all of the amendments, and we shall not ask for a division and neither shall we raise any points regarding a quorum and hope that this motion will be passed.

PRESIDENT: As the very fact that you said you would not raise any matter concerning quorum has brought the matter to my attention, I will now count the Council.

I now suspend the sitting and summon Members to come back to the Chamber.

A quorum was then formed.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not know whether the motion moved by Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung has any close connection with those people, especially the elderly ones , who died of "hypothermia" during the Chinese New Year. It is the opinion of the Democratic Party that the services for the elderly in Hong Kong have for a very long time failed to meet actual demand. There has been a serious shortage of places in various kinds of accommodation for the elderly, and those old people who need institutional care are denied the proper care required. For example, in the case of the elderly people who were frozen to death during the Chinese New Year, most of them had cardiac diseases or other respiratory diseases. Strictly speaking, they all died as a result of a lack of care. If society can take better care of them, for example, by making better arrangements in respect of the availability of places in the homes for the aged, the number of such tragic deaths could be reduced.

Under the existing policy, the provision of long-term institutional care is restricted to the elderly people who cannot receive proper care at home and to those who cannot look after themselves. However, as there is at present a severe shortage of places, many elderly people have to wait for years before they can move into care and attention homes. Many of those elderly people who were struck by the recent cold spell had suffered from various diseases, and even though they might not have to move into care and attention homes, they had still needed a lot of assistance and care before they could live on.

In fact, it is no news that there is a serious shortage of various kinds of institutional care for the elderly. Let me give just one example. Although the budget this year has already reserved funds for the addition of 952 care and attention home places and the purchase of 1 200 places from the private sector, there is still a shortfall of 880 places when compared with the projected demand set out in the five-year welfare plan. The shortage of places in homes for the aged is even more serious, with more than 2 000 places short of the projected demand in the five-year plan.

Also, concerning the model of continuum of care mentioned in the 1994 Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly, it is observed that nothing substantial has been implemented so far. The inadequacy of various kinds of accommodation has led to difficulties in placements. Insufficient infirmary beds has forced the elderly people who are in need of infirmary services to move into care and attention homes. Due to the inadequate supply of care and attention homes, many elderly people who should have moved into care and attention homes much earlier are still forced to continue staying in homes for the aged, where medical services are far from enough. The result is that many people have to wait, and even for those elderly persons who have got places, it does not mean that they can always receive the proper care. Therefore, I sincerely hope that the Government will try hard to improve institutional care for the elderly.

Although the Government has repeatedly rejected the demand for more outreaching teams for the elderly, I have to thank the Government for allocating $17 million this time to expand the network of services for the elderly in the community. We are appreciative of this commitment. However, I would like to raise the issue of elderly health care centres again because I have once moved a motion debate on it before. Although the Governor has promised to establish seven elderly health care centres before 1997, we will still fight for the setting up of one health centre in each administrative district for the benefit of the elderly within the district.

Concerning elderly health centres, I have also raised a question for a written answer on elderly dental services during the sitting today. A recent survey conducted by the Medical School of the University of Hong Kong indicates that as much as 70% of our elderly population are not provided with dental services. In response, the Government says that it has no plan to review the existing policy on dental services, and that it also has no intention of providing dental services in elderly health centres. In the past few months, I visited a total of 15 institutions, including homes for the aged, elderly care and attention homes, multi-service centres for the elderly as well as community centres, where I met over 1500 elderly people. They are all confronted with a serious problem, and that is, the government clinics they have been attending do not provide them with any dental services. If they have any dental problems or even some other troubles, they will not know what to do. Private dental services are not cheap, and elderly people have to pay the consultation fees themselves. For Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) recipients, they can still apply for reimbursement from the Government, but for non-CSSA recipients, they have to rely on their own savings if they want to see private dentists. Public medical services do not include dental services. This has exerted great pressure on the elderly because they may not know how to protect their teeth. Although Dr LEONG is not a dentist, he must have possess some basic dental knowledge, and he should thus know better than I that health problems generally start with the mouth. If the elderly do not enjoy dental health, an indirect consequence would be indigestion, or even stomach and intestinal troubles. I think the Government has all along failed to give any undertaking at all in respect of dental services for both adults and the elderly.

I hope to receive Dr LEONG's support for our cause in his reply. The Government has up to now failed to provide any adequate dental services at all, and I am very disappointed with its written reply today. I will continue to fight for the dental "care" which the elderly deserve. Later, the Democratic Party will still have the Honourable LAW Chi-kwong to speak on the proposal on emergency alarm facilities, and he will still have also state the stance of the Democratic Party on the two amendments today.

With these remarks, I support the motion and the amendments.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, there are at present about 590 000 people in Hong Kong who are aged 65 or above. As estimated, the number of people in this age-group will increase rapidly to 690 000 within the next five years. If we take account of the people aged 60 or above with an estimated annual growth rate of 2.5%, their number will be increased from around 800 000 as at present to 1.18 million in 2001.

Out of those elderly who have special needs, 90 000 live alone 60% of them live in private premises, including bedspaces and caged accommodation. For the elderly living alone in bedspaces, their activities are mostly confined to their beds where sanitary conditions are also very poor. Since most of the old buildings do not have lifts, those who are weak and feeble can only reduce the frequency of going downstairs and stay at home most of the time. Some of them are almost completely isolated from the outside world. The conditions of those living in caged homes are also appalling.

The elderly living in public housing estates also have their worries, only that their living environment is slightly better than those of the elderly mentioned above. At present, the problem of an aging population in public housing estates is quite serious. In some estates, especially the older ones, the elderly account for more than 30% of the total population. The elderly living in public housing estates are facing the problem of inadequate social support all the same. In case of emergency, they are unable to obtain immediate help. Like those elderly who live with their families but in need of special care, old people living on their own are generally confronted with medical, financial, housing and social support problems and needs.

Despite the fact that the Government has published a Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly in 1994, proposing more than one hundred ways to help improve the inadequacy of the existing elderly services, obviously, under the premise of a lack of any comprehensive elderly policy and a mechanism for implementation, we still have to concern ourselves with the problem of whether all senior citizens can secure a complacent life in old age.

Mr President, I have already stated my opinions on elderly medical service during last week's debate on the chronically ill, so I will not repeat them anymore. Now I would like to turn to the housing and financial problems of the elderly. As mentioned earlier, the living environment of many elderly are extremely unsatisfactory. The adjusted rent assistance for a single person is only $1,314. However, the spiralling rent of private buildings left the elderly with no choice but to rent shabby bedspaces or caged homes. Therefore, the Government should raise the rent assistance as soon as possible to enable the elderly to meet the increasing rent and maintain a reasonable living environment. In addition, in the process of urban renewal, many elderly who are living in old buildings are reluctant to move out of their own district. Not knowing where to go, some of them would rather become street-sleepers in their own district. I think the Government should formulate a corresponding policy during the demolition process to provide appropriate social services and rehousing to those living in solitude so as to solve the problems resulting from their removal and adjustment to their new home.

At present, more than 20 000 elderly are still waiting for the sheltered housing. Generally speaking, an elderly has to wait disigned to accommodate two to three years before he can be allocated a flat, and the flat allocated is usually designed to accommodate two to three tenants. If he asks for a self-contained unit, the waiting time will be even longer. It is indeed necessary to review the policy of sheltered housing, and issues concerning the problems of inadequate allocation and the curtailment of waiting time remain to be followed-up. Apart from this, the shortfall in care and attention places is also awaiting actions to be taken by the Government in tackling them.

Concerning financial support for the elderly, the Government should review the standard rate for the elderly living alone to see whether it should be pegged to the median wage. The Government should also relax the income limit of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) and improve the facility for disseminating information about CSSA. Apart from these, the old age allowance should be increased to $800 and the restriction imposed in connection with leaving Hong Kong be cancelled.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion and the amendments. Thank you, Mr President.

MR MOK YING-FAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, just now, on behalf of the Association for Democracy and People Livelihood (ADPL), the Honourable Frederick FUNG has spoken on the outreaching services and emergency alarm facilities for the elderly. I will give an account of the views of ADPL pertaining to the policies on medical services and Comprehensive Social security Assistance (CSSA) for the elderly.

As the saying goes, it takes more than one day for a river to freeze to a depth of three feet. Officials of the Health Department claim that no elderly people had died of hypothermia during the cold spell around the Lunar New Year. However, if it were not because of a lack of proper care all along which render old people physically weak and vulnerable to once the temperature dropped, why did so many of them die? There is a genuine need for us to review the adequacy of the existing medical and health care services provided for the elderly.

Some surveys on primary health care services for the elderly have shown that old people have to wait for four hours on average before they can receive out-patient services at public hospitals and clinics. Four hours is definitely not a short time. What is more, many of the waiting areas are not equipped with adequate shelters and seats with backs. As a result, elderly patients, who are feeling unwell already, are tortured by the scorching sun and pouring rain, with their backs stiff and aching after long hours of sitting straight. Their conditions may consequently aggravate. Since the waiting time is indeed too long, some elderly people may simply take patent medicine or rest at home instead of seeking out-patient treatment. We hereby urge the Government to improve the existing queueing arrangements for out-patient services and increase the number of chips reserved for the elderly according to the proportion of their population in each district. The Government should also promptly improve the facilities at waiting areas and deploy additional medical staff to cater for the demand of respective districts in order to shorten the waiting time for elderly people as far as possible.

As our population ages continuously, prevention has become more important than treatment. If elderly people can be given physical examinations at appropriate intervals, with early preventive measures taken, many ailments, I believe, are avoidable. Regrettably, primary health care education for the elderly is still not widespread; there are only four health centres, and by 1997 the number of such centres will only increase to seven at most. Since this is indeed a woefully small number, I think the Government should review its present planning with a view to setting up at least one elderly health centre in each administrative district. In the meantime, publicity efforts should be stepped up so that these centres can be utilized to the fullest extent.

Apart from medical and health care services, the standard of material living for the elderly is also very important. Under a report on the review of CSSA released by the Government this year, various kinds of CSSA payments are increased while only the CSSA payments for single elderly people stay intact, which is merely to be adjusted according to the inflation rate. I have the feeling that the Government has ignored the plight of the elderly, thus compelling them to live a life of financial embarrassment. How can one possibly maintain a dignified and reasonable standard of living with just about $1,900 a month, or about $60 a day? In the event of emergency, how can these old people have the means to cope?

The ADPL has always called for an increase in CSSA payments to one third of the median wage, that is, $2,700, a level set in accordance with the international poverty line. However, the Administration has rejected our demand on the ground that CSSA is not a form of retirement protection. I think this remark of the Government has in fact been a denial of the elderly's past contribution to the community. They have toiled for half of their life to build up the society of Hong Kong, is it really excessive of them to ask for a dignified living in their twilight years? If it were not because of the Government's "false role playing" in addressing the genuine need for retirement protection, would these elderly people still need CSSA to support themselves?

Finally, I would like to discuss the proposal on setting up a Committee on Elderly Affairs. As a matter of fact, given our ever-increasing elderly population, the community as a whole will eventually need to address and solve the elderly problem. The elderly issue involves a diversity of policy areas such as social welfare, medical services, housing and so on, which all require the co-ordination and organization of the Government. For this reason, I agree that there is a necessity for the setting up of an independent and standing Committee on Elderly Affairs for the formulation and co-ordination of long-term policies for the elderly. Such a committee should review the policies concerned on a regular basis, and it should also comprise representatives of elderly people and front-line social workers.

Mr President, I so submit.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Mr President, birth, old age, sickness and death are inevitable stages that everyone has to go through in his lifetime. No one can avoid being confronted with these objective patterns. As the average lifespan lengthens, the number of elderly people aged 60 or above in Hong Kong, according to the mid-1995 population estimates, has reached 13.5% of our total population. With the continuous aging of our population and the failure of our social welfare services to meet the needs of providing services for elderly people, elderly problem that ensued has become a serious social headache.

In the past, care for the elderly used to be the responsibility of individuals or family members. However, owing to western influences and the resultant changes in social mentality, filial piety has no longer been a prevailing spirit. Children's love for their parents is much less than the love oftheir parents for them. Many parents devoted their youthful years to painstakingly rearing their children, only to find that they are neglected by their children in their twilight years. On the other hand, since Hong Kong has still not yet implemented a comprehensive retirement protection scheme, how can elderly people in the lower strata of society have enough savings to lead a comfortable old age?

In recent years, the community of Hong Kong has shown increasing concern for elderly people but still, this is not enough. In the provision of services for the elderly, the Government has, in the main, implemented a community care approach, under which elderly people can live in their own familiar neighbourhood. This is, in principle, worthy of support. However, the success or otherwise of this community care approach depends to a great extent on family support and mutual assistance among neighbours. Regrettably, owing to insufficient resources, there has been little development in the various areas concerned at all. At present, the Government relies only on two outreaching teams for the elderly and some home helpers to provide community care services. The outreaching medical teams cannot, by any standard, meet the demand for elderly services. Elderly people are weak, and vulnerable to illnesses and they also have difficulty in moving around. Thus, they are in need of special and comprehensive care. In this connection, the Hong Kong Progressive Alliance suggests that an outreaching team for the elderly should be set up in every district. Moreover, a complete range of geriatric services should be established, while additional care and attention homes and multi-service centres should also be built expeditiously.

Apart from their health conditions, the housing needs of elderly people, in particular for elderly people living alone, has also long been neglected. The deaths of many elderly people due to the cold spell around the Lunar New Year, I believe, should still be fresh in the memory of Honourable Members! Many elderly people are living in rather appalling conditions. A lot of them live in bedspaces, partitioned rooms, rooftops and even scavenging back alleys or illegal cage structures. Some are even living under the threat of being rendered homeless, because of imminent land resumption by the Government, the Land Development Corporation and private developers. Although some old people are allocated public housing units after long years of waiting, most of them are accommodated in old housing estates with inadequate facilities and maintenance. If they want to be rehoused in new housing estates, they will have to pay higher rents. If they are rehoused in remote housing estates, they will be forced to change their usual life patterns. Therefore, we hope that the Government will give more consideration to the needs of elderly people by according them rehousing in new housing estates within their original districts, with rents subsidized in the form of allowances, so that they can enjoy a comfortable old age. Besides, the Government should speed up the construction of additional care and attention homes to ease the long-standing and acute shortage of places in old people's homes.

Finally, I would like to speak on the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA). At present, 30% of the elderly population are eligible for CSSA, but only 10% of them are CSSA recipients. Each of these old people receives only about $1,900 a month, and this is indeed inadequate to cover the basic living expenses of those elderly people who are in need, let alone providing them with a comfortable living at old age! Such a rate is indeed far too low, but the Government has stated that the expenditure of single elderly people are already 16% higher, when compared with that of the 5% households in the lowest income group. In drawing this comparison, is the Government trying to "match the poor against the poor"? The most direct means to improve the standard of living of the elderly people is to increase CSSA payments for the elderly. The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance maintains that CSSA payments should be increased in a gradation to one third of the median wage, that is, $2,700, in order to improve the welfare benefits for the elderly.

At the turn of the century, old age problem will become one of the most serious social problems in Hong Kong. I think it is high time that we should reviewed our "elderly people policies" on a full-scale basis.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion and the amendments.

MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I will focus on two aspects, namely, suicide among elderly people and mental health services for them.

The Government has all along been appropriating considerable resources to help youngsters solve the problem of suicide. It is indeed a regrettable thing for young people to commit suicide. Yet, we cannot for this reason lose sight of the fact that the problem of elderly suicide has long been ignored. While some relevant organizations such as the Samaritan Befrienders Hong Kong will publish statistics annually on suicide among the elderly, which will always spark off public discussion for a some time, but the qualm will nevertheless subside shortly afterwards as if the problem has been quiet down.

In fact, the problem of suicide among elderly people is very serious. In the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly published in 1994, it is stated that in 1981, the elderly suicidal rate resulting in death was around 30.8%, which rose to 42.7% in 1986; and that in 1991 was 37.4%. Over the past decade or so, the suicidal rate of the elderly remained high. This is echoed by the Report in paragraph 153 which reads, "The suicide rate among elderly people in Hong Kong is relatively high." According to the report on a survey of suicide among Hong Kong people conducted by the University of Hong Kong last year, the suicidal rate among elderly people aged over 60 has increased drastically. Generally speaking, there are on average some 250 to 300 elderly people who committed suicide every year, accounting for one third of the total number of Hong Kong people who committed suicide. In fact, many elderly suicide cases were classified as accidents, so there are definitely more elderly suicide cases than what government statistics indicated.

As stated in paragraph 152 of the Report, "Suicide is a very complex problem. It is caused by a variety of reasons, including social, psychological, emotional and situational factors. Prolonged illness, death of a loved one, family troubles, frustrations, despair and hopelessness are some of the reasons often cited for suicide attempts by elderly persons." The Report also stated that to a very large extent, many elderly people committed suicide mainly because of illness or psychological factors and depression. When the elderly have been ill for a long time, they would naturally become world-weary. Besides, declining physical functions and loneliness are also factors which make the elderly people think of killing themselves.

Under its existing policy, the Government has only passively set up social centres for the elderly to provide certain services for the elderly people, thinking that after the elderly are provided with entertainment at these centres, everything will be fine. The Government has no intention whatsoever to identify on its own initiative those elderly people who are particularly in need of help or the so-called "elderly at risk" and provide them with additional services. In fact, there is an acute shortage of psychiatric services in Hong Kong. This is particularly the case for services related to the psychological or mental health of the elderly. For instance, there are even less services for elderly people who are of uncommunicative and eccentric disposition and who suffer from psychogeriatric diseases such as depression and senile dementia.

The Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly published in 1994 made reference to the setting up of a psychogeriatric team comprising one Senior Lecturer, two Medical Officers, one occupational therapist and 13 nurses in Shatin Hospital in 1993. Its main duties include paying visits to four care and attention homes and three hostels for elderly people to provide psychogeriatric assessment and treatment to the elderly inmates. These services are provided not only for treatment purpose, but also as precautionary measures with a view to reducing the cases of elderly people committing suicide because of depression and emotional problems.

The Working Group on Care for the Elderly considered the provision of services through a psychogeriatric team very effective and the Hospital Authority has set up a total of three similar teams. In order to set up one community geriatric team and one psychogeriatric team in each hospital cluster, the Working

Group recommended the establishment of four additional psychogeriatric teams. However, I am of the view that the existing services fall far short of the demand. While many elderly people may not know how they can obtain assistance, improvements can be made if we adopt a more pro-active approach, just like what many of my colleagues have said just now. At present, there are only two outreaching teams for the elderly servicing Tsuen Wan and the Eastern districts, which is woefully inadequate to meet the demand. Many colleagues in this Council have consistently called on the Government to set up an outreaching team for the elderly in every administrative region in order to actively get in touch with the elderly people and to get to know their psychological and mental state such that problems can be detected early and specific ways to solve problems can be found.

Mr President, suicide among the elderly people is a very complex issue and the elderly suicidal rate in the territory stands high. Yet, regrettably, the Government still seems to be at its wit's end on this problem. I very much hope that in addition to strengthening the mental health services for the elderly which I mentioned earlier, the Government should also conduct a comprehensive and in-depth study on suicide among the elderly people to apprehend the reasons why the elderly commit suicide, in particular when the relevant statistics reveal that the older in age, the higher would their suicide rate be. I very much hope that the Secretary for Health and Welfare will give this issue a positive response later on.

Thank you, Mr President.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, as mentioned just now by many colleagues, the population of Hong Kong is aging. In Hong Kong, there are now 600 000 elderly people who are aged over 65 and the number may increase to 800 000 to 900 000 in the near future. We understand that these elderly people have played a vital role in the economic development of Hong Kong over the past decades. Some of them are less unfortunate, for they did not reap much benefits from the economic boom. It was perhaps because they were unable to save up much since they had to rear their children then. Now that their children have grown up, perhaps their children do not have the means to support them for they do not have much of their income left after spending on offsprings of their own. Under such circumstances, the industrial and commercial sector and the Liberal Party agree that this group of elderly people who are particularly in need should be taken care of.

The original motion of Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung and the amendments of the two colleagues call on the Government to take care of the "elderly at risk", those elderly people who need special care. They are not asking the Government to take care of all 600 000 elderly people, which is unlike the concept of old age pension that we had previously discussed. For this reason, the Liberal Party and the industrial and commercial sector would support both the original motion and the two amendments.

Mr President, I think there are two points which are worth mentioning. First, are there a mere 80 000 so-called "elderly at risk"? According to the Government, 80 000 to 90 000 out of 600 000 elderly people are Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) recipients. But will the number of "elderly at risk" be more than that? It is mainly because we are of the view that the Government is not doing enough in respect of the application for CSSA. Besides, the application form for CSSA is also very complicated. Not only is this the case for CSSA but also the case for the industrial and commercial sector. Very often many people have to work together to have the required application documents filled out. If an elderly person who does not have too high an education standard is required to fill in lots of forms before filing his or her application for the Government's approval, many elderly people who are in need of special care may be deemed to be having no problems at all just because they do not know how to file an application. Therefore, we urge the Government to look into this matter. This will, of course, lead to the issue of professional social workers. If there are more professional social workers to help these elderly people fill in the application forms, it will be clearly known whether or not these elderly people are eligible for CSSA.

Secondly, the industrial and commercial sector opines that the existing CSSA for the elderly at the rate of some $1,900 a month is far from adequate. In our view, $2,700, being one third of the median wage, as proposed by a number of colleagues just now, is a more reasonable amount. Of course, given that the social welfare expenditure has increased by as much as 60% in real terms over the past five years, we think this is, generally speaking, enough. It is particularly true when a family of four members can be in receipt of CSSA payment in the amount of $10,200. As compared with the $1,900 plus received by the elderly, there is indeed a huge difference.

Mr President, finally, I would like to say that from the point of view of the industrial and commercial sector, it is inevitable that elderly workers are subject to low wages and poor working environment, just as what the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han has pointed out. Elderly people all over the world may have to accept the same issue of equal pay for equal work. It is because in paying their workers, employers obviously expect their workers to cope with workload of a certain standard. Undeniably, the workload which elderly people are able to cope with is comparatively less.

Furthermore, I would like to make one point which has not been mentioned by other Members. It is my hope that the 3 million "wage earners" in Hong Kong will make some preparations for their lives after retirement. I hope they will save more money as long as they can manage because the day will eventually come when the 3 million wage earners will face the same situation as the 600 000 elderly people that we are discussing about now. I do not wish to see them asking society how they would be cared for by that time or how the industrial and commercial sector would create more employment opportunities for them. It is my hope that they can give some early thoughts to this issue which affects themselves and that they will not be too dependent on society.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the original motion and the amendments.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, during the cold spell that hit Hong Kong in February this year, some elderly people died in the cold weather due to the lack of care. I would like to focus my discussion, from the point of view of primary health care, on this group of elderly people who are lacking in care and attention.

To begin with, let me speak on environmental hygiene, which is closely related to the state of health of the individual. Many of the derelicts who live amidst unsatisfactory conditions, such as those street sleepers living underneath flyovers, do not have any essential means to keep themselves warm. Such means constitute an important part of what we refer to as primary health care. These living conditions alone can already make them vulnerable to a myriad of respiratory illnesses, such as bronchitis and pneumonia, which may cause death. The exhaust fumes that they inhale everyday underneath flyovers or the stale air inside caged structures contributed to their chronically poor chest conditions, which render them vulnerable to illnesses. And, certainly, their life is far from being wholesome too. Owing first to their meagre income and second to an inadequate knowledge about health care, many such street sleepers do not have a balanced diet. As a result, their resistance to diseases is weaker than that of elderly people in general. This, together with their psychological stress resulting from financial hardships, will make it all the more difficult for them to resist diseases. With regard to mental health, the Honourable WONG Wai-yin has spoken in length just now, so I do not intend to repeat the points here.

As for health care services, I would like to clarify that we are not referring to physical examinations or vaccination services provided by some elderly health centres. What we mean is health education on some important areas. The dietary habits of many elderly people are rather unbalanced; this is due not only to inadequate health education, but also to their dental health. Their health will obviously be affected if they are toothless. As a matter of fact, many elderly people have malnutrition problems because they, being toothless, cannot feed on a proper diet. Just conduct a study on this problem, and the Government will easily find out that poor dental health is one of the major reasons why elderly people cannot feed themselves properly. This is a point documented in many research studies and relevant literature. Therefore, I found it very disappointing that in its reply to the Honourable Fred LI's question asking for a written reply today, the Government stated that it had no intention of improving dental services for the elderly. The kind of health education that I refer to cannot be achieved simply by putting up a few display boards in clinics or by staging exhibitions. Instead, we should take a pro-active approach of conveying effective information directly to the elderly. If we simply resort to the traditional way of counting on the Central Health Education Unit as at present, or if we just put up a few display boards in clinics, the information in question obviously will not reach those elderly people who are most in need of health education.

Another point is that many of these people are chronically ill patients whose cardiac or respiratory conditions are far from healthy even under ordinary everyday circumstances. In case cold weather or infection occurs, their already morbid hearts and lungs will be further aggravated, and they may contract serious illnesses and die of them as a result. The Government should strengthen its provision of health care services for the elderly to enable them to be aware of their chronic illnesses and to learn about ways of protecting themselves, in addition to bringing home to them that since their cardiac and thoracic systems are no longer normal, it will be difficult for them to recover once they are infected.

I very much hope that the Government can really do something substantial in these areas so that these messages can be put across to the elderly people concerned. I also hope that the Government will come up with specific proposals and that it will not rely solely on conventional methods in the promotion of health education.

I so submit.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) is of the view that the existing problem lies in the lack of a comprehensive and prospective elderly policy on the part of the Government. While my colleagues from the DAB will express their views on the housing and financial needs of elderly people, I will focus on the aspects of medical services, community support and psychological health.

The existing elderly policy has been consistently aiming at providing community care, which means helping the elderly to secure a life of comfort at old age in their own communities. Yet, the setting of this policy objective is of no avail as there is no comprehensive organization and co-ordination. The success or otherwise of community care depends on family support, mutual assistance among neighbours and community support. The existing problem lies precisely in the failure to establish a network, inadequate care of elderly people by the communities and a lack of suitable resources and support.

Mr President, in order to help reduce the risks that elderly people living alone would face in their daily lives, measures that the DAB suggests should be taken include: a comprehensive policy on elderly services to be formulated and outreaching services for the elderly be provided to help the "elderly at risk" with a view to setting up a community care network for all these elderly people. "Risks indexes" for various districts should be compiled so that districts at high risk, such as old districts congested with private premises, can be accorded priority in receiving outreaching services. The Housing Department and the Social Welfare Department should expeditiously provide "elderly people having special needs" with free alarm bell facilities to help them cope with an emergency. Telephones connecting to alarm bell facilities should also be installed for all elderly people living alone, with installation cost plus the monthly charges borne by the Government. Besides, the Social Welfare Department should supervise and urge its staff to take the initiative to visit elderly people who are living alone and arrange social workers to make early preparations for the elderly before long holidays commence. One point most worth mentioning is that the Government should devise a comprehensive mechanism and strategy for elderly people and street sleepers in the territory to protect them "against the cold and provide them with relief" in case of emergencies. The Government should also enhance its co-operation with voluntary agencies whereas the Social Welfare Department and the Housing Department should review the existing "emergency relief" facilities of the hostels for the elderly.

With regard to medical services for elderly people, we feel that the Government is lacking in a centrally co-ordinated health care services for the elderly. Moreover, the services are constantly short of funds and the geriatric service is obviously inadequate. What is more, convalescent beds are far from enough and there is an acute shortage in primary care services for the elderly. For this reason, we suggest that the Government should allocate more funds for setting up a department exclusively responsible for co-ordinating health care services for the elderly and establishing at least one health care centre for the elderly in each of the 18 districts in the territory to provide physical examinations, referral services, family visits and so on for elderly people above 60 years of age. In addition, geriatric out-patient services should be strengthened and the standard of ambulance services improved. Meanwhile, based on the elderly population, the needs for infirmary beds should be re-assessed and community support services should be provided for those elderly people who are queueing up for infirmary places.

As regards community support services, we feel that outreaching services for the elderly should be expanded. Given our aging population, the problems encountered by elderly people in their daily lives and their needs for various services have become increasingly evident. Although the Government has provided a diversity of residential services and community support services through subsidizing non-governmental organizations, the services provided are generally centre-based or on referral basis only. No initiative is being taken to identify elderly people who are in need. For some elderly people who may be living alone, feeble and sick, having difficulty in moving around or ignorant of social services, if they have the concept that they "do not want to be dependent" or " to be on the dole", they will have great difficulty in making access to these two kinds of services. Therefore, they have an urgent need for professional social workers who would reach out to them to understand their needs so as to provide the services they need or make appropriate referrals.

Apart from caring for the financial and material needs of elderly people, we should not lose sight of their psychological health. In Hong Kong, suicide among elderly people has become a fairly serious problem. The reasons for the suicide cases may be varied, but may not be necessarily related directly to financial or material needs. This shows that psychological barrier is also one of the major reasons. Owing to their self-esteem and stubbornness, many elderly people are reluctant to share their feelings with others. For this reason, I suggest that the Government should set up a community service centre for the elderly in every district for providing professional psychological counselling services. Outreaching social workers can refer elderly people to such centres for professional psychological counselling. In such centres, the elderly can receive expert counselling services to help them break down their psychological barriers, enhance their confidence, integrate into and adapt to society so as to minimize the risk of elderly suicide.

Mr President, in order to ensure that all elderly people in Hong Kong can enjoy a complacent life at old age, I think the Government should expeditiously formulate a positive and prospective elderly policy. I also urge the Government to consider the medical, financial and housing needs of elderly people with special needs and set up a comprehensive community support network, including the expansion of outreach services so that the elderly can obtain comprehensive care and live in a dignified way free from worries in their twilight years.

Mr President, I submit these remarks and that the DAB will support the original motion and the two amendments.

MR LAW CHI-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, policies and welfare benefits for the elderly have been debated many times during the current legislative session. I do not want to repeat the problems and points discussed before. In fact, having listened to Members' speeches for such a long time, I can simply say "ditto" and sit down right away. Having said that, however, I would like to turn to another aspect of the issue. Instead of welfare benefits, I would like to focus on medical services, not least because Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung is the mover of this motion, and I thus feel that I should focus on the medical aspect.

There are many problems in respect of medical services for the elderly and I would like to focus on three of them: first, preventive health care services; second, medical charges; and third, waiting time.

At present, physical examinations and preventive health care services for the elderly are both inadequate. The health condition of many elderly people with physical problems has worsened because they cannot receive the proper care. An obvious example is that many elderly diabetic patients have contracted other illnesses, such as cataract, because of the lack of proper care. In a way, it can be said that inadequate preventive services and care for the elderly have led to increased medical expenditure. This is to say that improvements to the medical and preventive health care services for the elderly must be made without delay.

Very often, medical fees has been a major item of expenses for elderly people. Those whose income is slightly higher than the existing CSSA level have to face even greater difficulties. Therefore, I hope the Government can consider the following two options as a means of tackling the medical fees problem faced by elderly people:

1. Fees remission at 50% for all elderly people aged 60 or above who use public medical services; and

2. The introduction of another level above that of CSSA, offering total fee exemption to patients whose standard of living falls to the CSSA level due to high medical expenses.

The first option is a simple method which can benefit all elderly people at low administrative costs. The second option can provide greater help to elderly people with special needs, but involves more administrative costs.

The third problem is waiting time. As the Honourable MOK Ying-fan has mentioned just now, the waiting time for out-patient services is generally very long. A study that I conducted some 10 years ago showed that the waiting time was four to five hours. A study conducted recently shows that the waiting time is still four to five hours. Over the years, this problem has drawn quite a lot of criticisms, but not much improvement has been made so far. Ailing elderly people are the ones most affected by such long waiting hours. Very often, they have to queue up for chips at 6 am and the unfortunate ones among them may even have to wait until 11 am before they can see the doctor. Besides, what is most unacceptable is that there is often a shortage of resting areas for waiting patients at out-patient clinics. It is therefore of paramount importance for us to increase the number of chips reserved for the elderly and to improve the arrangement of follow-up appointments for them.

Many Members who have spoken today have spoken a lot about the death of some 100 elderly people caused indirectly by the cold spell during the Lunar New Year. So, I am not going to repeat them anymore. At present, I am working hard on the setting up of a non-profit-making Emergency Call Control Centre for the Elderly with a view to providing elderly people at home with alarm and emergency call facilities. I very much hope to gain the support of the Government and all sectors in the community. I will shortly announce the arrangements details. In the meantime, what I can say is that over $1 million of donations have been received, and the only issue at stake at the moment is how a non-profit-making organization can be set up to implement this proposal at the soonest possible time. I will inspect some sites tomorrow and the Housing Department has already been considering the provision of certain sites for us. Members will be informed of the progress in more detail on some later dates.

The Democratic Party strongly supports the motion of Dr LEONG Che-hung and we have also given Dr LEONG our views on the wording of the motion beforehand. However, since two Members still moved amendments to the motion, we feel bound to express our views in this respect. The amendments of the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han and the Honourable LEUNG Yiu-chung have put us in a dilemma. On the one hand, we hold that Legislative Council Members should respect one another, and so, we should not insert our own wording in an original motion to which we agree in principle. If we have any opinions about the details of the motion, we should approach the mover as early as possible in the hope that he or she will incorporate our ideas. The Democratic Party is of the view that seeking to amend the details of an original motion is in fact showing disrespect for the mover. On the other hand, however, we feel obliged to support these two amendments because they are in line with the policy position of the Democratic Party. We cannot vote against them, lest the records may lead to misunderstanding.

For this reason, the Democratic Party will vote for these two amendments. Yet, we appeal to our colleagues in this Council to show some basic respect for movers of original motions, and do not behave as an "amendment seeking Member".

I so submit.

PRESIDENT: I now invite Dr LEONG Che-hung to speak on the amendments to his motion. You have five minutes to speak on the two proposed amendments.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, first of all, let me thank the two colleagues for amending my original motion. I hope that all colleagues will support not only my original motion but the two amendments as well. The reason is indeed very simple. The actions that the two amendments urge the Government to take are, firstly, covered by the speech I made when moving the motion; and secondly, what I have in fact been promoting since 1991. The two amendments, therefore, are actually attempts to exert more pressure upon the Government.

I would also like to thank the Honourable LAW Chi-kwong for pointing out that we should not only be motion amendment movers, and that we should respect the original motions. In this respect, I was asked this question: "Since you have agreed to the two amendments, then why do you not add the wording of the amendments to you own motion?" The reasons are threefold. Firstly, when the two colleagues sought to move their amendments, it was already too late for me to revise the wording of my original motion. Secondly, I believe that in a neutral debate like this one, if more Members come up with amendments, naturally more Members will be induced to speak on the motion. This is good because more support would then be offered to the elderly, and there will be more people urging the Government to do more for the elderly. Thirdly, under the existing circumstances, if we do not want other Members to amend our own motion, the simplest way would be to incorporate the entire speech into the wording of the motion. In that case, no one would seek to amend the motion because the motion itself has incorporated everything that we would like to say.

The motion I am moving today covers only a rather narrow scope. The reason is simple. We have already discussed the overall policy for the elderly for quite a number of times, but in the wake of the fatal cold spell in February in which many elderly people were frozen to death, I could see that there is a group of elderly people who require our immediate attention. They are the so-called "elderly at risk". I really hope that the Government will do more in this area. If we can focus our attention on these elderly people, it would be tantamount to concentrating our efforts to urge the Government to do more in this respect.

I would like to clarify a point here. Just now the Honourable LEUNG Yiu-chung seemed to have misunderstood the meaning of "elderly at risk". The term "elderly at risk" by no means refers to those elderly people who are on the verge of dying. In fact, both the social work sector and the Government have a definite standard for "elderly at risk". Let me state it once again now. The term "elderly at risk" refers to those elderly people living alone, or those living in a substandard or hazardous environment, or those who have to be constantly confined at home because of unfavourable physical or mental state, or those who do not know how to apply for the services required or do not want to be assisted at all, as well as those who are victims of abuse. In other words, the "elderly at risk" could be any elderly person including those who live with their family, because there may also be some sort of risks inherent in their twilight years. In view of such, I hope that my fellow colleagues would appreciate the reasons why I move this motion. The Honourable Fred LI said that he did not quite understand why I would move such a motion. The reason is very simple. It is because he was out for dinner when I was elaborating on the reasons for my moving the motion. (Laughter) Mr LI has got it right, I initiated this motion solely because of the fatal cold spell occurred in February this year.

It is an undeniable fact that the two amendments can both express our concern for the elderly. I myself will support both of them and I hope that my fellow colleagues would also lend them their support.

Thank you Mr President.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, this is a timely debate and I welcome Members' constructive views today. Based on our current level of life expectancy, we can all expect to live to a ripe old age. We are all therefore understandably interested in ensuring that the policies are in place to provide for a dignified and fulfilling life in our twilight years. We are happiest and most satisfied when we are at home surrounded by our family, our friends and a familiar environment. Our fundamental policy goal is to provide the opportunity for as many people as possible to grow old in such circumstances. We give the highest priority to implementing concrete plans to achieve this policy. Because people's outlook and expectations are constantly changing, we must also constantly keep our plans under review. I could not agree more, therefore, with the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han that our planning must be both pro-active and forward looking.

The most comprehensive review of our plans was undertaken in 1993 by a Working Group on Care for the Elderly. The Group reviewed existing policies on the full spectrum of services for the elderly. All 71 recommendations of the Working Group were accepted by the Government and funds have been earmarked to implement them.

But our efforts to improve services for the elderly have not stopped there. As I said before, the expectations and needs of the elderly are evolving and the Working Group recognized the need to carry out in-depth studies of the needs of the elderly for community support and residential care. We are about to commission an important consultancy study to assess whether the needs of the elderly are being adequately served by existing services and whether new services need to be introduced. The study will also recommend how public and private sector resources should be deployed most effectively to meet these needs. The outcome of this study will help us fine-tune our services and set them on the right path to meet the needs of those of us who will be in our old age in the early years of the next century.

Elderly at risk

Talking about elderly at risk, as much as we would all wish to see our elderly age living contentedly in their home environment, the cruel fact is that eventually health may deteriorate to the point where constant care is needed. Worse still, elderly people are all too often faced with too little or dwindling incomes to support themselves. The traditional role of children faithfully providing for their elderly parents has sadly broken down in many cases. So here we have a recipe for disaster ¢w elderly people with failing health, with inadequate financial resources and all too often living alone with no family support. These are some of the most vulnerable members of our community ¢w what Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung calls the "elderly at risk". It is for these that the Government has a special responsibility of providing care and support.

Meeting the financial needs of the elderly

A well-established retirement protection scheme is the best way of providing financial security for one's old age. Many Members have spoken on this. This is why we are working actively on introducing the Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF) Scheme. But meanwhile we have in place a Social Security Allowance Scheme to provide financial assistance to meet the special needs of the elderly arising from old age or disability. This Scheme comprises the Old Age Allowance (OAA) and the Disability Allowance (DA); both of which are not means-tested. About 420 000 elderly people of 65 years of age or more are receiving the OAA, the total expenditure on which was about $2.8 billion in 1995-96.

The Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme provides a safety net for those elderly people in proven financial need. At present, there are about 94 000 elderly recipients, representing about 60% of all our CSSA recipients. Later year, we spend about $3 billion on this group of CSSA recipients. As with all other groups receiving CSSA, the payments for elderly are set at a level to meet their basic needs.

During the recent cold spell which a number of Members alluded to, a lot of concern was expressed about the importance of providing our elderly people, especially those living alone, with an efficient means of calling for help in case of emergency. Under the CSSA Scheme, elderly persons who need a telephone are eligible to receive a special grant for this purpose. The grants cover both the installation cost and recurrent charges. To ensure that elderly people at risk are aware of this assistance, the Director of Social Welfare has just started a new initiative whereby his staff will pro-actively visit elderly CSSA recipients living alone to inform them about this special grant and to assist them to apply for it.

Meeting the health needs of the elderly

In meeting our health need of the elderly, many Members have also commented on this very important aspect of care for the elderly. To care for the health of our elderly population, we have a comprehensive system of health and medical facilities. People aged 65 and above are by far the biggest user of public medical and health services vis-a-vis patients of other age groups. The total attendance of patients in the General Outpatient Clinics under the Department of Health totals over 5 million in 1995 and 34% of these are patients aged 65 and above. The total bed-days for patients in public hospitals were 6.9 million in 1995 and 39% of those were for elderly patients. They also constitute an estimated 32% of the total number of patients attending the Medical, Surgery and Orthopaedic outpatient clinics. The Honourable Fred LI and others commented on dental care needs of the elderly. As for dental care, the financially disadvantaged elderly who are eligible for CSSA, can seek treatment at the non-profit-making dental clinics designated by the Social Welfare Department and their fees are reimbursed through the CSSA Scheme.

In order to improve our medical and health facilities for the elderly, a range of new services has been developed exclusively to care for the health of elderly people in the past few years. These include the setting up of seven elderly health centres by 1997 to provide and promote preventive health care for elderly people aged 65 and above. So far, four centres have been brought into operation and another three will be opened this year. These new centres will be set up within general outpatient clinics to provide a more integrated service to meet the needs of elderly patients. In addition, the Hospital Authority has set up seven community geriatric and one psychogeriatric assessment teams to provide outreaching medical services to elderly people residing in residential care institutions. These teams undertake assessments to ensure proper placement of elderly patients who need residential care. They also provide specialist support in the form of medical/nursing care and rehabilitation service for elderly persons in care-and-attention homes. One additional community geriatric team and three psychogeriatric teams will be set up this year. Geriatric assessment clinics will also be set up in the various hospitals to provide outpatient medical services to the elderly in our community.

Clinics under the Department of Health and public hospitals are well-geared to deal with crisis situations, whether this occurs in the elderly population or in the general community. Again arising from the recent cold spell, consideration is being given to enhancing the public health programmes to promote public awareness of the sort of care needed for the elderly during extreme weather conditions. The Department of Health is considering the best way to step up its health education and for elderly persons living in the community through social centres and public housing estates. The Department has also launched a Health Ambassador Programme for the Elderly, the main objective of which is to disseminate health messages amongst the elderly community. I agree with the Honourable Michael HO's suggestion that we need to devise more innovative schemes to promote health education for elderly persons.

Meeting the residential care needs of the elderly

For those elderly whose health condition does not allow them to remain at home, a full range of residential care services are provided to meet their varying needs. They range from self-care hostels for those who are still capable of self-care but require certain support in their daily living; to care-and-attention homes which provide personal care and limited nursing care to elderly persons; and to infirmaries where intensive medical and nursing care are given. As of 31 March 1996, there are 19 665 subvented residential care places for the elderly. This represents a 30% increase in such places over the last three years.

In his policy address in 1993, the Governor announced the introduction of a new nursing home service for the elderly. It provides medical and nursing care as well as residential care to those elderly who have lost personal care ability and whose medical conditions, while stabilized, still require regular medical attention. There are six nursing homes under planning with a total provision of 1 400 beds. Four of them will be completed in 1997 and two more will be completed by mid-1998.

Temporary accommodation and emergency placements are provided for elderly people urgently in need of accommodation while awaiting other long-term placements. Such facilities are either in emergency places of subvented residential care homes or in emergency shelters run by government or non-governmental organizations. In addition, places are reserved in temporary shelters and hostels for single persons to meet the special needs of elderly people at risk.

Despite the continuous increase in the provision of residential services, the waiting time for residential places still remains an issue of great concern. Strenuous efforts are being made to shorten the waiting time. These include:

- first of all, increased provision of subvented residential places, particularly care-and-attention places where the demand is most acute. An additional 1 150 places will be provided in the coming two years. The consultancy study on elderly needs which will be commissioned shortly will examine the current planning ratios for residential care places to ensure that they accurately reflect the needs of the elderly;

- secondly, more places will be bought from private residential homes through the Bought Place Scheme. Funds are available to purchase additional 300 places;

- efforts are being stepped up to encourage private and voluntary organizations to operate self-financing, non-profit-making residential homes. These homes provide an alternative for those who are ready to pay for better quality service, thereby releasing subvented places to those genuinely in need of them. At present, there are 2 105 self-financing places in residential homes. With the setting up of the Elderly Services Development Fund following the recommendation of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly, we hope more organizations will come forward to apply for financial assistance from the Fund for operating more of these self-financing residential care services; and

- finally, the waiting list system for residential homes is to be streamlined by introducing a computerized, integrated system for all applicants, thereby making the system fairer and more effective.

Meeting the need for social support of the elderly

Many Members commented on the social support for the elderly. Various forms of services are presently provided to reach out to elderly people at risk. Apart from the two subvented outreaching teams, staff of home-help teams are in regular contact with elderly persons who receive such services. Through these home visits, elderly persons with special needs are identified and referred by our home helpers to professional social workers for assistance and other welfare organizations. Professional social workers from family services centres and medical social services of the Social Welfare Department and non-governmental organizations also reach out to elderly people in need. To encourage neighbourhood and volunteer support in the provision of services to vulnerable groups, the experimental Older Volunteers Programme and the Volunteer Workers Programme have been launched in 10 multi-service centres for the elderly. They aim to reach out to elderly persons at risk and help them make use of services available in the community.

To strengthen the support network, a telephone service has also been provided in these multi-service centres as an integral part of the programme to answer enquiries from elderly people and to provide peer support as well as to refer elderly persons to appropriate welfare agencies where needed. In addition, mutual help groups and support networks are organized by service units of the Social Welfare Department and non-governmental organizations in their community support projects and concern visit programme to elderly persons living alone.

As a new initiative, the Social Welfare Department are taking the lead to co-ordinate with other government departments, non-governmental organizations and local groups in each district to mobilize community and volunteer support to reach out to vulnerable elderly persons. A list of elderly persons at risk will be compiled and volunteers will be identified to conduct regular visits to these elderly persons. The programme will be conducted under the planning and supervision of professional staff in the district offices of the Social Welfare Department and in multi-service centres. A sum of $17 million has been earmarked to conduct this project over the coming two years.

Central Committee on the Elderly

The Honourable LEUNG Yiu-chung has proposed the setting up of a Central Committee on the Elderly. My response to this is that we already have a comprehensive consultative machinery in place to advise the Government on all aspects concerning the elderly: the Social Welfare Advisory Committee advises the Government on welfare policies including those that concern the elderly; the Health and Medical Development Advisory Committee advises on health and medical policies while the Housing Authority takes care of public housing policies concerning the elderly. The Hospital Authority is responsible for the management of all public hospitals. It is in these four main areas that the vast majority of services for the elderly are provided. The Elderly Services Division of my Branch which co-ordinates policy matters concerning health, medical and welfare of the elderly will seek advice from these bodies when the need arises. In addition, the Council's own Panel on Welfare Services monitors and advises the Government on matters relating to elderly services. An important ongoing dialogue is also maintained with the Hong Kong Council of Social Service and non-governmental organizations involved in the provision of elderly services. The existing consultative channels are therefore more than adequate to monitor the work of the Government on all aspects of elderly services.

Ensuring those elderly people in need are properly provided for is, without doubt, one of my heaviest and most challenging duties. But may I remind Honourable Members that it is not solely the Government which has a heavy responsibility in this regard. In our society, it is traditionally a key role of the family to ensure that elderly persons are cared for with the respect and dignity they deserve. I appeal to all members of our community not to neglect this role. Through a combination of these traditional values and the comprehensive services and the financial support we provide for the elderly, I am confident that we shall succeed in meeting our responsibilities towards them.

Thank you, Mr President.

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Cantonese): I would like to speak on the Government's housing policy for the elderly. First, I would like to begin with a quotation from ¤j¦P½g:¡u¦Ñ¦³©Ò²×......¥®¦³©Òªø¡C ¡v This is our ideal and also our aim. We have therefore taken a number of proactive and positive steps in the formulation of housing policy.

As many people know, we have already done a great deal for the elderly in Hong Kong through the agency of the Housing Authority and, to a lesser extent, the Housing Society. We are determined to make further improvements, and have also set further targets for the next few years. In short, we are now focussing efforts on four areas: building enough suitable public housing flats to meet demand from elderly people; giving the elderly priority over other applicants for public rental housing so that they can be accommodated more quickly; making elderly people who have not yet registered on the Waiting List for public rental housing aware of this avenue; and improving facilities and services in public housing estates for the needy ones. I shall deal with each of these areas briefly.

Flats for the elderly

Our first objective is to build sufficient public rental flats for the elderly. We have planned to make available another 27 000 flats by 2001, and this quantity is sufficient to meet estimated demand up to that period. Various types of accommodation are provided, both for elderly singletons and for two or more old people living together, in recognition of the fact that while some old people wish to live alone, other prefer communal living so that they can support one another physically, socially and emotionally.

Priority for the elderly

Our second objective is to give elderly people priority in public housing allocation. Three major schemes are in existence. Under the Elderly Persons Priority Scheme, elderly people who are willing to share accommodation will normally be allocated flats two years after registration. Under the Families with Elderly Persons Priority Scheme, which is designed to encourage families to look after their elderly dependents, the waiting time is shortened by up to three years. Elderly persons who prefer to live alone can apply for rental flats through the Single Elderly Persons Priority Scheme, and they will normally be offered accommodation within two years.

Registering the elderly

Our third area of concern is the estimated 27 000 elderly people living in sub-standard private accommodation, who have not yet applied for public housing. Various publicity campaigns have been launched and home visits have been made. We have also set up Housing Information Centres in districts with large elderly populations to help them apply for public housing. The response is encouraging.

Service for the elderly

Our fourth objective is to improve facilities and services to meet the special needs of the elderly living in our public housing estates and to offer them appropriate assistance. We have introduced the Estate Social Services for the Elderly Scheme in 11 estates with a high concentration of elderly tenants in order to foster community care. We will expand the Scheme to another 15 estates this year, and gradually thereafter to other estates. We have improved the design and fittings of accommodation for the elderly, including, for example, laundry racks, fluorescent lights, handrails in shower rooms, non-slip floor tiles, and so on. We have installed emergency alarm sets in some estates at the request of elderly people, taking into account their health condition and individual needs. I have just noted members' suggestions on how to improve the alarm system, including small portable units or system involving electronic devices connected to a central control centre. We need to examine more carefully, in consultation with other departments the usefulness and practicability of installing such systems, before taking a decision on the way forward.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Mr President, we have taken many proactive and positive steps to meet the housing needs of old people who wish to live in public housing estates, and to ensure that they can enjoy a comfortable and dignified old age.

Thank you, Mr President.

PRESIDENT: I now call upon Miss CHAN Yuen-han to move her amendment to the motion.

MRS CHAN YUEN-HAN 's amendment to DR LEONG CHE-HUNG's motion:

"To delete all the words after "That" and substitute with ", in order to secure a dignified old age for all senior citizens in Hong Kong, this Council is of the view that the Government should expeditiously come up with a proactive and forward-looking elderly policy; and also urges the Government to take into consideration the health, financial and housing needs of "the elderly at risk" and establish a comprehensive community support network, including the development of outreach services for the elderly and the provision of free emergency alarm facilities for the needy elderly"."

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that Dr LEONG's Che-hung motion be amended as set out under my name on the Order Paper.

Question on Miss CHAN Yuen-han's amendment put and agreed to.

PRESIDENT: Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, as Miss CHAN Yuen-han's amendment has been agreed, your amendment cannot proceed in its present form. Would you like to seek permission to alter the terms of your amendment?

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): First of all, Mr President, I would like to clarify a fact. I am not moving this amendment for the sake of amending. Neither am I moving such an amendment because I want to become a "Mr Amendment", as the Honourable LAW Chi-kwong put it. In fact, I had discussed with Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung and asked for his opinions. Dr LEONG has also accepted my amendment. Originally, he intended to revise the motion himself, but the time allowed for him to do so has lapsed. He therefore told me that he welcomed my amendment. Actually, I am moving this amendment because I have no choice. I hope Members can understand the situation and refrain from voting against my amendment with the attitude they take towards certain "Mr Amendment".

Thank you, Mr President.

PRESIDENT: You have my leave to revise the terms of your amendment. In accordance with the House Committee's recommendation which I have accepted, you have up to three minutes to explain your revised amendment.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG's amendment to DR LEONG CHE-HUNG's motion:

"To delete the full-stop at the end and substitute with "; and to set up an independent Committee on Elderly Affairs."."

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, with your permission, may I change the terms of my amendment as now tabled.

PRESIDENT: Technically, this speech ought to be confined to explaining the difference between the new terms and the old terms and as far as I can see, there is only one difference ¢w a punctuation mark.

MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move that Dr LEONG's motion as amended by Miss CHAN be further amended by my revised amendment.

Question on Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung's amendment proposed.

PRESIDENT: Dr LEONG Che-hung, you are now entitled to make your final reply and you have three minutes 40 seconds out of your original 15 minutes.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): First of all, Mr President, I would like to thank colleagues for speaking so enthusiastically. Although there are two amendments today, the amendments have not stired up any political disputes. This shows that we all want to do something for the elderly. Although Members have responded overwhelmingly today and offered a lot of valuable opinions, we have not been able to dwell into each and every point due to the time constraint. Now I would like to discuss two or three issues in particular.

First, the provision of dental care for the elderly as mentioned by the Honourable Fred LI and the Honourable Michael HO. I have been pushing the Government since 1988 to do something in providing primary dental care services. I am glad to see that the Democratic Party seems to awaken suddenly. It is hoped that the Democratic Party can continue to support me in pressing the Government to provide dental care services for certain groups of people to strive for a better result. It is ridiculous that the Government on the one hand tells the elderly that if they take care of their teeth at an early date, they could have 20 teeth by the time they were 80; but on the other hand, the Government does not provide them with the relevant services. In that case, how can the result be achieved?

Second, a particular point I would like to raise is the problem of elderly suicide, a point raised by the Honourable WONG Wai-yin just now. There is no doubt that figures show that the number of elderly suicidal cases in Hong Kong ranks quite high by world standard. This is not something that Hong Kong should be proud of. I therefore hope that the Government can do more in this respect.

I am also glad to see that the Government have attached great importance to these issues by sending two Policy Secretaries here to tell us what the Government intends to do. The two Secretaries have mentioned many things the Government can do or wants to do. I hope that the Government can really put the words into practice instead of engaging in empty talk. It has, on many occasions, disappointed me because many of its replies are only "standard answers". The two Secretaries mentioned that the Government has spent an enormous amount of money by citing how much money has been spent in providing public assistance and Comprehensive Social Security Assistance, but please do not forget what the elderly need is not only money, but they also need care and concern.

When the fatal cold spell that killed many old people occurred in February this year, I was in the United Kingdom. My heart ached when I saw the elderly died one after the other. It was even more heartbreaking to see that Hong Kong became a laughing stock of the media worldwide. The wording the media used was "Heartless Hong Kong" ¢w "a Hong Kong that is without a heart". Given our brilliant achievements, I felt it was a shame that Hong Kong should allow others to see it in such a way. It was even more disgraceful that the government officials had to rush around at that time to distribute blankets. Such thing should not have happened if the Government had a long-term plan to take care of the elderly.

Lastly, I would like to touch upon the Committee on Elderly Affairs. This proposal was put forward by me in 1991 and the Honourable LEUNG Yiu-chung raised this up again today. I really hope that the Government can give serious consideration to this proposal. There is no doubt that we have the Hospital Authority and the Health and Medical Development Advisory Committee in place for the work, but if we do not have an organization to assume the co-ordinating role, we will not be able to promote the provision of services for the elderly.

Thank you, Mr President.

Question on Dr LEONG Che-hung's motion, as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and as further amended by Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT AND NEXT SITTING

PRESIDENT: In accordance with Standing Orders, I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 8 May 1996.

Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes past Nine o'clock.

(Note: The short titles of the Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) (N0. 2) Bill 1996 and Kadoorie Agricultural Aid Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 1996 listed in the Hansard have been translated into Chinese for information and guidance only; they do not have authoritative effect in Chinese.)

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