LegCo Paper No. CB(3) 311/96-97

THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MINUTES
No. 11 of 1996-97

Minutes of the sitting held on Wednesday 4 December 1996 at 2:30 pm

Members present:

    President --The Honourable Andrew WONG Wang-fat, OBE, JP
    The Honourable Allen LEE Peng-fei, CBE, JP
    The Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW LIANG Shuk-yee, OBE, JP
    The Honourable NGAI Shiu-kit, OBE, JP
    The Honourable SZETO Wah
    The Honourable LAU Wong-fat, OBE, JP
    The Honourable Edward HO Sing-tin, OBE, JP
    The Honourable Ronald Joseph ARCULLI, OBE, JP
    The Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, OBE, JP
    Dr the Honourable Edward LEONG Che-hung, OBE, JP
    The Honourable Albert CHAN Wai-yip
    The Honourable CHEUNG Man-kwong
    The Honourable CHIM Pui-chung
    The Honourable Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
    The Honourable Michael HO Mun-ka
    Dr the Honourable HUANG Chen-ya, MBE
    The Honourable Emily LAU Wai-hing
    The Honourable LEE Wing-tat
    The Honourable Fred LI Wah-ming
    The Honourable Henry TANG Ying-yen, JP
    The Honourable James TO Kun-sun
    Dr the Honourable Samuel WONG Ping-wai, MBE, FEng, JP
    Dr the Honourable Philip WONG Yu-hong
    Dr the Honourable YEUNG Sum
    The Honourable Howard YOUNG, JP
    The Honourable Zachary WONG Wai-yin
    The Honourable Christine LOH Kung-wai
    The Honourable James TIEN Pei-chun, OBE, JP
    The Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan
    The Honourable CHAN Kam-lam
    The Honourable CHAN Wing-chan
    The Honourable CHAN Yuen-han
    The Honourable Andrew CHENG Kar-foo
    The Honourable Paul CHENG Ming-fun
    The Honourable CHENG Yiu-tong
    Dr the Honourable Anthony CHEUNG Bing-leung
    The Honourable CHEUNG Hon-chung
    The Honourable CHOY Kan-pui, JP
    The Honourable David CHU Yu-lin
    The Honourable Albert HO Chun-yan
    The Honourable IP Kwok-him
    The Honourable LAU Chin-shek
    The Honourable Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
    Dr the Honourable LAW Cheung-kwok
    The Honourable LAW Chi-kwong
    The Honourable LEE Kai-ming
    The Honourable LEUNG Yiu-chung
    The Honourable Bruce LIU Sing-lee
    The Honourable LO Suk-ching
    The Honourable MOK Ying-fan
    The Honourable Margaret NG
    The Honourable NGAN Kam-chuen
    The Honourable SIN Chung-kai
    The Honourable TSANG Kin-shing
    Dr the Honourable John TSE Wing-ling
    The Honourable Mrs Elizabeth WONG CHIEN Chi-lien, CBE, ISO, JP
    The Honourable Lawrence YUM Sin-ling

Members absent:

    The Honourable Martin LEE Chu-ming, QC, JP
    Dr the Honourable David LI Kwok-po, OBE, LLD(Cantab), JP
    The Honourable Eric LI Ka-cheung, OBE, JP

Public officers attending:

The Honourable Mrs Anson CHAN, CBE, JP
The Chief Secretary
The Honourable Donald TSANG Yam-kuen, OBE, JP
The Financial Secretary
The Honourable Jeremy Fell MATHEWS, CMG, JP
The Attorney General
Mr Michael SUEN Ming-yeung, CBE, JP
Secretary for Home Affairs
Mr Nicholas NG Wing-fui, JP
Secretary for Constitutional Affairs
Mrs Katherine FOK LO Shiu-ching, OBE, JP
Secretary for Health and Welfare
Mr Rafael HUI Si-yan, JP
Secretary for Financial Services
Mr Joseph WONG Wing-ping, JP
Secretary for Education and Manpower
Mr Peter LAI Hing-ling, JP
Secretary for Security
Mr Bowen LEUNG Po-wing, JP
Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands
Mr Stephen IP Shu-kwan, JP
Secretary for Economic Services

Clerks in attendance:

Mr Ricky FUNG Choi-cheung
Secretary General
Mr LAW Kam-sang
Deputy Secretary General
Miss Pauline NG Man-wah
Assistant Secretary General (1)
Mr Ray CHAN Yum-mou
Assistant Secretary General (3)

Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order No. 14(2):

Subsidiary Legislation

L.N. NO.

1. Waste Disposal (Permits and Licences) (Forms and Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

492/96

2. Waste Disposal (Chemical Waste) (General) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

493/96

3. Water Pollution Control (General) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

494/96

4. Noise Control (General) (Amendment) (No.2) Regulation 1996

496/96

5. Noise Control (Air Compressors) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

497/96

6. Noise Control (Hand Held Percussive Breakers) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

498/96

7. Air Pollution Control (Specified Processes) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

499/96

8. Road Traffic Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 10) Order 1996

500/96

9. Ozone Layer Protection (Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1996

501/96

10. Dumping at Sea (Fees) Regulation

502/96

11. Tax Reserve Certificates (Rate of Interest) (No.4) Notice 1996

503/96

12. Hawker (Permitted Place) (No.4) Declaration 1996

504/96

13. Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles (Amendment) Ordinance 1995 (73 of 1995) (Commencement) Notice 1996

505/96

14. Post-Release Supervision of Prisoners Ordinance (Cap.475) (Commencement) Notice 1996

506/96

15. Import and Export (General) Regulations (Amendment of Fourth Schedule) Order 1996 (L.N.422 of 1996) (Commencement) Notice 1996

507/96

16. Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Dangerous Goods Ordinance) Order

(C) 123/96

17. Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Reserved Commodities Ordinance) Order

(C) 124/96

Sessional Paper 1996-97

No. 38 - Vocational Training Council Annual Report 1995/96

Announcement

The President announced that, after Mr Albert CHAN had spoken on Mr Fred LI's motion on "Policy on people's livelihood for new Hong Kong after 1997" at the last sitting, he had undertaken to make a ruling, at this sitting, as to whether or not the use of the term "tortoise and tortoise egg" by Mr CHAN was appropriate in a parliamentary context. The President stated that, after consideration, he was of the opinion that the term as used in Mr CHAN's speech was not inappropriate.

The President further reminded Members that the use of the term "tortoise egg" to refer to persons would be insulting.

Questions

1. Mr MOK Ying-fan asked Question 1.

The Secretary for Health and Welfare replied.

Six Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Health and Welfare replied.

2. Mr LAU Chin-shek asked Question 2.

The Secretary for Home Affairs replied.

Five Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Home Affairs replied.

3. Mrs Elizabeth WONG asked Question 3.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Five Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

4. Miss Emily LAU asked Question 4.

The Secretary for Financial Services replied.

Two Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Financial Services replied.

5. Mr Andrew CHENG asked Question 5.

The Secretary for Security replied.

Seven Members asked supplementaries and the Secretary for Security replied.

Written replies to Questions 6 to 20 were tabled for Members’ information.

Government Motions

Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance

The Secretary for Economic Services moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That the Gas Safety (Gas Supply) (Amendment) Regulation 1996, published as Legal Notice No. 455 of 1996 and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 6 November 1996, be amended in section 2, in new regulation 23A(2), by repealing everything after " " and substituting " ".

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

Government Bills

First Reading

Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions and Minor Amendments) Bill

1996

Occupational Safety and Health Bill

Crimes (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1996

Carriage by Air Bill

The Bills were read the first time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order No. 41(3).

Second Reading

Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions and Minor Amendments) Bill

1996

The Attorney General moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Occupational Safety and Health Bill

The Secretary for Education and Manpower moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Crimes (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1996

The Secretary for Security moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Carriage by Air Bill

The Secretary for Economic Services moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Occupational Deafness (Compensation) (Amendment) Bill 1996

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which had been moved on 23 October 1996.

Question on Second Reading put and agreed to.

Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

New Territories Land Exchange Entitlements (Redemption) Bill

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which had been moved on 5 June 1996.

Three Members spoke on the motion.

The Secretary for Planning, Envirnoment and Lands replied.

Question on Second Reading put. The President stated that he thought the motion had been negatived.

Mr WONG Wai-yin claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Standing Order No. 36(4).

The President announced that there were 37 votes for the motion and nine votes against it. (Voting record in Appendix I.) He declared that the motion was carried.

Bill read the second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Council.

Committee Stage

The Council went into Committee and considered the following Bills:

Occupational Deafness (Compensation) (Amendment) Bill 1996

Question that the following clauses stand part of the Bill proposed.

Question on clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to.

New Territories Land Exchange Entitlements (Redemption) Bill

Question that the following clauses stand part of the Bill proposed.

Question on clauses 1 to 13 put and agreed to.

The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands moved an amendment to the schedule and addressed the Committee.

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question that the schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill put and agreed to.

The Council then resumed.

Third Reading

The Secretary for Education and Manpower reported that

the Occupational Deafness (Compensation) (Amendment) Bill

1996

had passed through Committee without amendment. He moved that the Bill be read the third time and do pass.

Question on the Third Reading proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.

The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands reported that

the New Territories Land Exchange Entitlements (Redemption) Bill

had passed through Committee with amendment. He moved that the Bill be read the third time and do pass.

Question on the Third Reading proposed, put and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.

Members' Motions

Territorial development strategy review

Before calling on Mr Edward HO to move his motion, the President explained why part of Miss Christine LOH's proposed amendment to the motion had been deleted. The words to be deleted from Miss LOH's amendment which was notified to Members on 27 November 1996 were: "which does not rely on excessive reclamation in Victoria Harbour,". The President stated that on 26 November 1996, he had ordered that Miss LOH's orginal proposed amendment be printed on the Order Paper. Subsequently, he learned that Miss LOH had given notice to introduce her "Protection of the Harbour Bill" which she would move for its Second Reading at this sitting. The purpose of the Bill was to "protect and preserve the harbour by establishing a presumption against reclamation in the harbour and by requiring such reclamation to be approved by the Legislative Council". The Explanatory Memorandum also said that "The purpose of this Bill is to ensure that Victoria Harbour will be protected against excessive reclamation". As Miss LOH's amendment and her Bill referred in essence to the same matter, in accordance with his ruling made in the Council on 20 November 1996 concerning the rule of anticipation, the President ruled that Miss LOH should not move the above wording in her proposed amendment, as it anticipated her own Bill.

Mr Edward HO moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council regrets that the Government has under-estimated Hong Kong’s population growth, as well as its housing, transport and other physical infrastructure needs in the past; and urges the Government to formulate a long-term and balanced territorial development strategy to promote Hong Kong’s continual economic growth, and enhance and sustain a high quality of life for the people of Hong Kong.

Question on Mr Edward HO's motion proposed. The President stated that Miss Emily LAU and Miss Christine LOH had separately given notices to move amendments to the motion. He proposed that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion and the two proposed amendments be debated together in a joint debate.

Miss Emily LAU addressed the Council on the motion and her proposed amendment.

At 5:10 pm, the President's Deputy took the chair during the temporary absence of the President.

Miss Christine LOH addressed the Council on the motion and her proposed amendment.

Four Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

At 5:51 pm, the President resumed the chair.

Another 13 Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Mr Edward HO spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Miss Emily LAU moved the following amendment to Mr Edward HO's motion:

To delete "formulate" and to substitute with "consider imposing a cap on population growth, so as to facilitate the formulation of".

Question on Miss Emily LAU's amendment to Mr Edward HO's motion proposed, put and negatived.

Miss Christine LOH moved the following amendment to Mr Edward HO's motion:

To add "which does not rely on excessive reclamation in Victoria Harbour, so as" after "balanced territorial development strategy"; and to add "in an environmentally sustainable manner" after "continual economic growth".

Question on Miss Christine LOH's amendment to Mr Edward HO's motion proposed and put. The President stated that he thought the amendment had been agreed.

Mr Edward HO claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Standing Order No. 36(4).

The President announced that there were 21 votes for the amendment and four votes against it. (Voting record in Appendix II.) He declared that Miss Christine LOH's amendment to Mr Edward HO's motion was agreed.

Mr Edward HO replied.

Question on Mr Edward HO's motion as amended by Miss Christine LOH put and agreed to.

Provisional legislature

Before calling on Mr Andrew CHENG to move his motion, the President stated that Mr David CHU had given notice to move an amendment to the motion and Mr MOK Ying-fan had also given notice to move an amendment to Mr David CHU's proposed amendment. The President further stated that the amendment to Mr CHENG's motion proposed by Mr CHU involved leaving out all the effective words of Mr CHENG's motion and adding words as an alternative to the words proposed to be deleted. If Members later on voted in favour of Mr CHU's amendment, or his amendment as amended by Mr MOK, having regard to the ruling on the debate on Mr SIN Chung-kai's motion on "Strengthening the Supervision of Statutory Public Organizations" held at the sitting on 6 November 1996, after he had declared that Mr CHU's amendment, or his amendment as amended by Mr MOK, had been agreed, he would declare Mr CHENG's motion as amended by Mr CHU, or as amended by Mr CHU and Mr MOK, had also been agreed to by the Council and the procedure on the debate would end there. The question on the motion, as amended, would not therefore be put and Mr CHENG would not have the right of reply. However, if Mr CHU's amendment, or his amendment as amended by Mr MOK, was not agreed, the usual procedure would be followed.

Mr Andrew CHENG moved the following motion and addressed the Council:

That this Council opposes the setting up of the provisional legislature.

Question on Mr Andrew CHENG's motion proposed. The President further proposed that the motion, the amendment to the motion proposed by Mr David CHU and the amendment to Mr CHU's amendment proposed by Mr MOK Ying-fan be debated together in a joint debate. There being no dissenting voice, the President ordered that the motion, the amendment and the amendment to the amendment be debated together in a joint debate.

Mr David CHU moved the following amendment to Mr Andrew CHENG's motion and addressed the Council:

To add ", as the negotiations between China and Britain failed to reach a consensus over the political system of Hong Kong, thereby resulting in the non-convergence of the pre- and post-1997 electoral models for the law-making body of the territory and rendering the setting up of the provisional legislature inevitable," after "That"; to delete "opposes the setting up" and substitute with "calls on the candidates for the election"; and to add "to fulfil, as the target of their participation in political affairs, the principles of 'one country, two systems; Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong; and high degree of autonomy'" after "of the provisional legislature".

Question on Mr David CHU's amendment to Mr Andrew CHENG's motion proposed.

Mr MOK Ying-fan moved the following amendment to Mr David CHU's proposed amendment and addressed the Council:

To add "at this stage" after "the setting up of the provisional legislature".

Question on Mr MOK Ying-fan's amendment to Mr David CHU's amendment proposed.

23 Members spoke on the motion and the amendments.

The President invited Mr David CHU to speak for the second time on Mr MOK Ying-fan's amendment.

Mr Andrew CHENG spoke on the amendments.

The Secretary for Constitutional Affairs spoke on the motion and the amendments.

Question on Mr MOK Ying-fan's amendment to Mr David CHU's amendment put. Mr MOK Ying-fan and Mr K K FUNG claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Standing Order No. 36(4).

The President announced that there were 30 votes for the amendment and 25 votes against it. (Voting record in Appendix III.) He declared that Mr MOK Ying-fan's amendment to Mr David CHU's amendment was agreed.

Question on Mr David CHU's amendment as amended by Mr MOK Ying-fan to Mr Andrew CHENG's motion put. Mr MOK Ying-fan claimed a division. The President then ordered the Council to divide under Standing Order No. 36(4).

The President announced that there were 30 votes for the amendment and 25 votes against it. (Voting record in Appendix IV.) He declared that Mr David CHU's amendment as amended by Mr MOK Ying-fan to Mr Andrew CHENG’s motion was agreed.

The President further declared that the motion moved by Mr Andrew CHENG as amended by Mr David CHU's amendment which had been amended by Mr MOK Ying-fan was carried.

Members' Bills

First Reading

Protection of the Harbour Bill

The Methodist Church, Hong Kong, Incorporation (Amendment) Bill

1996

The Bills were read the first time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order No. 41(3).

Second Reading

Protection of the Harbour Bill

Miss Christine LOH moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

The Methodist Church, Hong Kong, Incorporation (Amendment) Bill

1996

Mr LAU Chin-shek moved the Second Reading and addressed the Council.

Question on the Second Reading proposed. The President stated that in accordance with Standing Orders, the debate was adjourned and the Bill was referred to the House Committee.

Next sitting

In accordance with Standing Orders, the President adjourned the Council until Wednesday 11 December 1996.

Adjourned accordingly at nine minutes to eleven o’clock.

(Andrew WONG)
President
Council Chamber
Hong Kong

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